Coetzee: Waiting for the Barbarians | (CL) first read: Sep 2013

[Marieke]

With deep apologies, since it is now October, I am opening this thread in the hopes that someone will want to suggest some titles we can poll for and carry on, pretending like the calendar is not leaving us in the dust...

[Chinook]

Zoo City?

[Mark]

Please define for me 'speculative' fiction. Thanks.

[Jenny (Reading Envy)]

Speculative fiction tends to be a category broader than science fiction and fantasy - it includes those but also might include post-apocalyptic, alternate history, imagined futures, etc.

My suggestions:

The Dervish House by Ian McDonald
Who Fears Death by Nnedi Okorafor

The Middle East is not Africa, right? So Egypt counts but not Israel?

[Marieke]

Yes, Jenny, that is correct: Egypt is on the African continent, but Israel is not. We include North African countries (Libya, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco), too, but nothing from the Middle East.

And thanks for the succinct answer to the question about what is speculative fiction! I saw some other questions from overnight; I will get to those a little later...

[Marieke]

Oh but Jenny, if the author is originally from Africa (Ethiopia for example) but now lives in Israel, that would be fine. The book does not have to be set in Africa for this project.

[Jenny (Reading Envy)]

Marieke wrote: "Oh but Jenny, if the author is originally from Africa (Ethiopia for example) but now lives in Israel, that would be fine. The book does not have to be set in Africa for this project."
It was more that there are a few authors either from or books set in the Middle East that fall under speculative fiction that I've been wanting to read. I'll have to find another reason. :)

[Marieke]

Do we have anything for that at The MENA group yet? I know some members have discussed the genre. I will talk to my co-mods there and get something official going for next year. My Prizes project didn't really take off...perhaps I'll swap it out for speculative fiction in 2014. :D

[Jenny (Reading Envy)]

Not sure I know the MENA group.

[Marieke]

Oh! I'll get you the link...

i thought you were in this group for some reason. there is a bit of cross-over between here and there.

the main page for the group:
https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/413

and here is a discussion thread about science fiction from North Africa:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

i thought there was more over there, i must poke around...

[Marieke]

Chinook wrote: "Zoo City?"

yes! that is one on my personal list! :)

[Nina]

A couple more suggestions, from authors already mentioned: Akata Witch, by Nnedi Okorafor and The Shining Girls, by Lauren Beukes

[Marieke]

Nina wrote: "A couple more suggestions, from authors already mentioned: Akata Witch, by Nnedi Okorafor and The Shining Girls, by Lauren Beukes"

Thanks, Nina!

We also have suggestions that we generated here in this thread last year and early this year. But I'm thinking there might be more ideas! and some new books! :)

I will put a list into the random list generator and poll the top 5 this Saturday.

[Jenny (Reading Envy)]

The Shining Girls is written by a South African, but is set in Chicago, featuring a time traveling serial killer.

[Bunza]

Ali Mazrui's 'The Trial of Christopher Okigbo' is one of my favorites. Its setting is both the Biafran Civil War and in a courtroom in the afterlife. Most people only know Mazrui's nonfiction but this novel is excellent.

[Marieke]

Sorry, i totally dropped the ball. I'm going to generate a poll this evening...

[Marieke]

Thanks, Bunza, I have put that title in the randomizer but I can't promise it will show up in the poll.

[Marieke]

Here are the top five for the poll:

Joan De La Haye - Shadows
who fears death
Search Sweet Country - B. Kojo Laing (Kojo Laing)
Waiting For the Barbarians - JM Coetzee
The Trial of Christopher Okigbo

:)

[Marieke]

Waiting for the Barbarians is the winner!

[Jenny (Reading Envy)]

There is also an opera by Philip Glass based on this work. I've always waited to see the opera until I had read the book. Now is the time! So what will our timeline be, now that it isn't September? December?

[Marieke]

I put the book as "currently reading" through the end of the year. And I'll do that for the remaining contemporary lit books too. My guess is that not everyone will read in all the genres. Also I'll keep the threads open, of course. :)

Jenny, is the Phillip Glass opera something I could watch via netflix (or whatever)?

[Jenny (Reading Envy)]

I'm going to poke around but at first glance, I haven't found a full-length production available anywhere. It may be too new! The CDs are available, but frankly, listening to opera only gives you 1/2 the story, and I would NOT recommend it.

[Nina]

For a change I am actually reading the book at the time we are supposed to!

[Jenny (Reading Envy)]

Nina wrote: "For a change I am actually reading the book at the time we are supposed to!"

Me too! I actually found a copy already!

[Melanie]

I read this back in college for a Post-Colonialism Lit class. I remember liking it or at least the way the Professor presented it. It is a short read but packs a powerful punch. I have tried other Coetzee books and found them to be very different than Barbarians - haven't really been able to get in to them.

[Jenny (Reading Envy)]

Melanie wrote: "I have tried other Coetzee books and found them to be very different than Barbarians - haven't really been able to get in to them"

Me too. Most of his novels tend to be middle-aged-professor and his mid-life-crisis. I understand this one to be different from the rest, hurrah.

[Marieke]

yay! co-readers! :)

i just started this one this morning....i'm also enjoying it. I liked his book Michael K but i had trouble with Disgrace.

[Beverly]

I am hoping to start the book this evening!!!!
Had to do a reading schedule so I can keep myself on track. :)

[[deleted user]]

Whoa!!! Powerful and memorable book. Ranks up there with Conrad's Heart of Darkness. Never despised a character more than Joll. Ugh!!

[Beverly]

I finished the book.

My thoughts:
• I had a hard time getting into this book. This is the third time I have tried to read Coetzee and have concluded that his writing style just does not appeal to me.
• I also think that this book might have had a greater impact or resounded with me better if I had read it when it was first published as over the years till now I have read/learned about oppression and colonialism and similar subjects.
• It showed the physical abuse/torture as a way to break the spirit and mind. Also thought that this helped to show while others who were part of the oppressor class/race that did not agree with the handling/treatment of the “barbarians”/oppressed would hesitate to speak out or help the oppressed. And how the oppressor controlled the messages about the oppressed.
• There was not much emotional connection for me with this book – I was surprised because of the subject matter.

[Marieke]

Beverly wrote: "I finished the book.

My thoughts:
• I had a hard time getting into this book. This is the third time I have tried to read Coetzee and have concluded that his writing style just does not appeal to..."

Beverly, I had a very similar reaction to the book. I really had trouble feeling any kind of emotional reaction for any of the characters. I thought it started out well, but once the young "barbarian" woman came on the scene it fell apart for me. I think Coetzee writes too much and too often about older men's virility via an "old" man's relationship with a perhaps too-young woman, which is fine and whatever (it's interesting to know what men worry about and think about etc!), but the way he writes about it gets tiresome for me.

i wanted more about the oppressor-oppressed/injustice dynamic. it's there, but something was lacking for me and like you, i was surprised at my reaction.

i think a lot of people like this book and maybe they can help us appreciate it more...

what stood out for you guys as readers? which aspects of the book got under your skin?

[Jenny (Reading Envy)]

Marieke wrote: "I think Coetzee writes too much and too often about older men's virility via an "old" man's relationship with a perhaps too-young woman, which is fine and whatever (it's interesting to know what men worry about and think about etc!), but the way he writes about it gets tiresome for me."

This is exactly why I haven't returned to Coetzee, the old-man trope is so overdone. And I couldn't believe he fit it into this book, which should definitely be focused on other things!

I was disappointed. I was expecting more. I understand he was trying for universal but instead I felt it was vague.

[Marieke]

i was caught off guard by the old man trope.

Life and Times of Michael K is the only Coetzee book i have enjoyed so far. :/

[Marieke]

Mal wrote: "Whoa!!! Powerful and memorable book. Ranks up there with Conrad's Heart of Darkness. Never despised a character more than Joll. Ugh!!"

Help us out Mal! some of us are struggling with this book. i feel like a failed reader. lol.

[[deleted user]]

Marieke wrote: "Mal wrote: "Whoa!!! Powerful and memorable book. Ranks up there with Conrad's Heart of Darkness. Never despised a character more than Joll. Ugh!!"

Help us out Mal! some of us are struggling with t..."

I liked it from the start. I like the characterization. I liked their thoughts. Could have omitted the sex, but I enjoyed the gritty feel of the situation. Vivid writing style made the abuse so tactile, haunting story. Hmmm if you haven't read Conrad's Heart of Darkness, give it a shot, might help. Could be Coetzee lacks the chemistry and appeal for you as a reader.

I will say the short length was appealing anything longer the impact would have been lost. Joll was despicable. Ugh!

[Marieke]

i can't help but wonder if the book would have have more impact for me if there had been more Joll and less girl. Don't get me wrong, i understand why he had the girl-man relationship but i think he drew it out too, too much.

it's been a really long time since i've read Heart of Darkness...

[[deleted user]]

Marieke wrote: "i can't help but wonder if the book would have have more impact for me if there had been more Joll and less girl. Don't get me wrong, i understand why he had the girl-man relationship but i think h..."

I agree the girl aspect could have been much less, I was taken in by the mental aspect. It isn't an easy book, falls into the area of love it or hate it, IF you can finish it. I can see why this wouldn't have 'mass appeal'

[Marieke]

That's what I've noticed too...like it or dislike it, if you can finish it lol. I have a colleague who told me she could not finish it. She might give it another try. And it's short, so I may even try again sometime...not to make myself like it, but more to see if I can develop an appreciation for it. I didn't hate reading it, but I don't know...I was not connecting with it or seeing its greatness, which I believe it is supposed to have. It makes me feel like a failed reader! Ha!

[[deleted user]]

Marieke wrote: "That's what I've noticed too...like it or dislike it, if you can finish it lol. I have a colleague who told me she could not finish it. She might give it another try. And it's short, so I may even ..."

Nooooo, no failure, just wasn't your cup of tea....impossible to love everything.

[[deleted user]]

I wonder what it would have been like if the author were female? Hmmm

[Marieke]

Well, I do wonder if there were layers or dimensions I was not getting to because I was so annoyed at the virility issue. So maybe if I read it again...I don't know. Lol you are right it's impossible to love, or connect with, every book we read.

[Beverly]

Mal wrote: "Marieke wrote: "i can't help but wonder if the book would have have more impact for me if there had been more Joll and less girl. Don't get me wrong, i understand why he had the girl-man relationsh..."

I was not that put off with the girl issue. To me it helped to show the how the progression of the mind of the oppressor. While he did some thinking and evolving that was starting to open his eyes - he as a male in those times could not resist "controlling" the young woman.

[Marieke]

I think I would have been less bothered by the girl if I hadn't read any other Coetzee books before...he seems to constantly revisit this theme of old man with young girl and for me it is tiresome and causes the story to lose whatever impact it might have had.

[Jenny (Reading Envy)]

Marieke wrote: "I think I would have been less bothered by the girl if I hadn't read any other Coetzee books before...he seems to constantly revisit this theme of old man with young girl and for me it is tiresome ..."
Agreed, like he's sitting around thinking new settings and scenarios for what is really the same old thing.

[Nina]

Well, I finished it, and have to admit that one of my first reactions - which has to do with this groups' choice of the book: is this an "African" book? Yes, I know the author is South African, but to me it doesn't really have an "African" feel, and if you ask me to define this, I am not going to be very helpful. I suppose part of the issue is the descriptions of landscape which to me seems more central Asia than anything else.

On the other hand, I suspect this is a book which is worth thinking about, and re-reading again, for another perspective.

[Diane , Head Librarian]

Coming to the party a few years late... I just finished the book and have some of the same issues the rest of you did. I didn't care for the old man - young girl thing, either - and yes, this seems to be a recurrent theme for Coetzee. I did really like the overall message of the book and seeing how people can change for the better. I enjoyed seeing how the magistrate's attitude toward the native population changed over time.

[George P.]

Marieke wrote: I think Coetzee writes too much and too often about older men's virility via an "old" man's relationship with a perhaps too-young woman, which is fine and whatever (it's interesting to know what men worry about and think about etc!), but the way he writes about it gets tiresome for me.

i wanted more about the oppressor-oppressed/injustice dynamic. it's there, but something was lacking for me and like you, i was surprised at my reaction.

I was searching for posts in the group about Coetzee, as I'm reading In the Heart of the Country, and found these posts about the older-man theme of his. I thought, "Yeah, that's in Heart of the Country too", remembering it also in Disgrace and Waiting for the Barbarians, which I've read. Have you noticed that the older man is white in all 3 of these novels and the younger woman nonwhite? And (in at least two of them) the woman is coerced into the sex. I see this as an illustration of white men's exploitation of women and native people, and of course self-reassurance of the man's virility.