Shadow and Bone
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Has Bardugo talked about the Russian inconsistencies?
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Rachel
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rated it 3 stars
Oct 15, 2013 03:01PM
I'm not Russian, but I've read a lot of reviews pointing out that some of the words and Russian references in the book are incorrectly used. The ones most mentioned are the words "Grisha", "otkazat'sya", names like Alina Starkov and Ilya Morozova that have both female and male names intertwined, and the use of kvas as an alcoholic beverage when it is never more than 1% alcohol. Has Bardugo ever been questioned about these things or expanded on them? Do any of them get addressed in the next book? No spoilers please if you bring up Siege and Storm!
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I don't know if she's ever addressed it or not but for me personally, I just took it at face value. It has Russian influences (keyword influence) but it is not Russia. It is a made up world that she created.
Nikki wrote: "I don't know if she's ever addressed it or not but for me personally, I just took it at face value. It has Russian influences (keyword influence) but it is not Russia. It is a made up world that sh..."I feel the same way, actually. I can understand why people would get frustrated reading the same mistakes over and over, but it makes you wonder: are they even mistakes? I don't think any author, especially one who goes through the trouble of inventing their own world, would just throw around terms that they don't understand. I have a feeling that Bardugo did these things on purpose but I wanted to know for sure if she had said anything about them.
She did address it, I think it was on her tumblr or her blog a while back. She said that the book was "Russian influenced" but that it was not taken exactly from Russian culture.
Thanks for the replies. :) I figured it was something like that, taking influence rather than basing it entirely on Russian culture. How could it be based entirely on Russian culture anyway when "Russia" doesn't technically exist in their world? I don't understand why the people complaining about the inconsistencies can't see that. And I'm glad Bardugo at least addressed it.
i am russian and the book was absolutely hilarious in the worst way possible.it was like Bardugo read those few books on russia written by - i note - WESTERNERS - and decided that it was enough and she could just nitpick some elements of our culture and incorporate it into her fictional world. inaccurately.
it doesn't matter that "oh but its not russia its ravka" its STILL based on almost nonexistent research into an existing culture and is actually really offensive.
It may offend people who are Russian or who are of Russian decent.
So has it been established that Bardugo never tried to integrate herself into Russian culture? Did she talk about visiting the country or the amount of research she did? How much of the Russian influence in the book is noticeably off, apart from the things I mentioned? I'm really curious about that because from what I'm hearing it sounds like she just browsed a bunch of Wikipedia pages for research. I hope that's not the case.
I think she did. I know I little Russian if she really did research she wouldn't have messed up their surnames.
That's disappointing. :( I still love the books but I really wish she had researched more and not thrown it together so haphazardly. I guess because I'm unfamiliar with Russian culture it was impossible for me to notice those things, but now that I know them they are definitely bothersome. Thanks for the replies everyone.
I have no idea if she did much research into Russian language or culture, but it is a fantasy with a Russian FEEL. This is not Anna Karenina! Middle Earth had allusions to multiple mythologies, languages, and regions. Names came from Old Anglo Saxon, for example, and Elvish was related to Welsh. Whether those aspects were true to the various inspirations or not is not important. Do I care how closely Tolkien modeled the Silmarillion to Finnish or Norse mythologies. No. I can understand why the discrepancies in Bardugo's works could be irritating to those familiar with Russia, but for those readers who are not, it was a refreshing change from your typical fantasy setting.
Marjorie wrote: "I have no idea if she did much research into Russian language or culture, but it is a fantasy with a Russian FEEL. This is not Anna Karenina! Middle Earth had allusions to multiple mythologies, lan..."^ This. I couldn't agree more, Marjorie. I enjoyed Shadow and Bone immensely. I certainly got the Russian essence, but I didn't fact check her. I enjoyed the story. Period.
I loved the book too, but after seeing so many complaints about the inaccuracies I was just curious if she had mentioned anything about it. It doesn't bother me TOO much, but I definitely understand why it would bother others and can't imagine being able to enjoy the book if it was my own culture the author essentially pulverized. However, I've never come across a book based off of American culture that is written by a non-American, so I don't know how it feels. I'm not even sure what American culture is.Russia is a much older country and I assume their customs run a hell of a whole lot deeper than most Westerners realize. Then again, the same can be said for the cultures that inspired the likes of Middle Earth, as one commenter already mentioned. Tolkien's world has been, for the most part, positively received. I think a lot of it depends on how much of a specific culture's influence the author chooses to write about. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings series was heavily influenced by a large assortment of countries, cultures, and languages, so it would be difficult to compare Middle Earth to just one or two of them. However, Ravka is based SOLELY on Russia and the countries surrounding it, meaning it's easier to find specific discrepancies. That's why her usage of Russian culture is being criticized, because it's not "loosely based" on Russia, it is based ENTIRELY on Russia and she changed the things that were convenient for her to change. (I know in one of my earlier comments I said, "But it's not based entirely on Russia since Russia doesn't exist in her world." I realize now that that is a stupid way of thinking because even though the word "Russia" doesn't exist in Ravka, that doesn't mean it's a totally separate world, since there are still things she took from the culture and placed in the book.)
If you want to base a book off of a culture that is not your own, you can't pick and choose certain aspects of it and morph them into something that's kiiiiind of like it but not really. Do that and you will offend the people you're basing your story off of. You either write about it truthfully and accurately, or you construct a world that is yours and yours alone and is merely INSPIRED by the culture in question. That means you don't use their language or religion or traditions. You create your own language, your own religion, your own traditions (and don't just change the name of something while keeping it exactly the same, that's a cop-out). You can be inspired by something without actually molding your story around it, if that makes sense. Everything nowadays is inspired by something else, there's really no denying that. But if you're going to take the bare bones of a centuries-old culture and discard whatever you're uncertain about or uninterested in, should you really use it at all? It seems to me that Bardugo didn't think about these things, she just took her favorite parts of Russian culture and tweaked them into something similar, but not identical.
Anyway, I'll still give her credit for writing an amazing story. I doubt she just threw her hands in the air and said, "Screw accuracy! This is my world!" Still, that doesn't make the inaccuracies any easier to ignore now that I know about them. And if I were Russian, I probably wouldn't be able to read the books at all without feeling frustrated the entire time.
And not only that she is also giving false information. People might actually think the stuff she put in there is accurate and that causes assumptions that aren't even correct.
That in itself is another reason it's offensive. And that plays into the stereotype that all Americans are dumb.
That in itself is another reason it's offensive. And that plays into the stereotype that all Americans are dumb.
Crimson and Rachel, I can definitely agree with the fact that there are many inaccuracies and that could be off-putting. As a Catholic, the references to the devotions to the saints,relics, and the lemming-like behavior of the zealots so wrong it is very offensive, but I still love the story :-) The story actually has many similarities to the Avatar series which has a Pan-Asian "feel." It is definitely not accurate and could be offensive especially to those who believe in reincarnation. Avatar also characters similar to the Grishka - air, water, fire, and earth-benders. There are also characters (bad) who can bend blood a bit like the heart-renders. Great discussion!
Hey guys, As this is not a review, but a discussion, I hope that it's okay for me to be weighing in. If I've overstepped I apologize.
I did quite a bit of research for Shadow and Bone and I cite just a few of my sources in the acknowledgments. They include cultural histories, folklore, original source material like old recipe and prayer books, and the rather vibrant Russian expat community just north of me in Los Angeles.
The decisions not to gender surnames and to use kvas as a stand-in for hard alcohol (as well as a few other things like my treatment of plurals) may have been clumsy and ill-conceived, but they were also deliberate. I talk a bit about the reasoning behind them here: http://www.leighbardugo.com/tongue-tw....
I should also add that, before it was published, my work was reviewed not just by my editor, but by copy editors, proofreaders, multiple foreign editors, and foreign copy editors. It's conceivable that I'm a dullard who can't be bothered with the most cursory research, but that all of those people are also dullards seems a little more far-fetched.
That said, deliberate choices aren't necessarily good ones. I have to respect that those choices have been offensive to some readers and have drawn others out of the story. My goal here is not to defend those choices or in any way police your response to them, only to shed light on my process.
In the interest of full disclosure, I should mention that the name "Ana Kuya" was a straight up blunder. I had no idea that it basically amounts to a Russian epithet and I seriously doubt that the Duke's straight-laced housekeeper would approve. I'm also going to link to an interesting piece by Rose Lemberg (http://roselemberg.net/?p=405). She takes me to task in no uncertain terms, but it's a fascinating read with some thoughtful comments, and it's given me a lot to think about as I've progressed through the series.
Again, if I've crossed the author/reader line in an inappropriate way, I apologize. I know that's a sensitive issue and I don't want readers to feel in any way attacked or dismissed. I'm happy to continue the conversation here or on tumblr, but I'm also happy to bow out.
Sincerely,
Leigh
Leigh wrote: "Hey guys, As this is not a review, but a discussion, I hope that it's okay for me to be weighing in. If I've overstepped I apologize.
I did quite a bit of research for Shadow and Bone and I cit..."
Wow, the last thing I thought when creating this topic was that I'd get a response from the author! Thank you so much for responding, it helps me understand where you were coming from when creating this series and, as an aspiring writer, I can understand that keeping everything authentic is not an easy task when you're writing about a culture that is not your own.
I can also understand that while writing, you don't automatically assume that your book is going to be popular. It has every chance of being badly received, or even ignored completely. Therefore it's easy to let the little things slide, because after all, it's possible no one will notice. And if someone does notice, will they even care? It's super stressful trying to get everything right, and sometimes it's easier to reimagine a name or a drink or whatever else to fit your story. This is especially tempting if it doesn't have much impact on the story, but is a small detail on which you don't want to spend an unnecessary amount of time. The frustration of being 100% authentic can make many an author give up writing certain stories, which is a shame. It's impossible to write authentically unless you choose to write about personal, real-life experiences. And while those types of books help people understand perspectives that they would never be able to experience on their own, it leaves little room for imagination. If everyone wrote like that there would be no fantasy, no sci-fi, no supernatural thrillers. That's why it's easy for me to forgive most inaccuracies; as long as they are necessary to the story's setting, I don't find them to be so horrible that I can't enjoy the book as a whole.
Having said that, I hope that all the criticisms about the inaccuracies (whether they were intentional or not) have helped your writing for the future. I have every confidence that you've learned from it and will continue to grow as an author, and I personally can't wait to see what you come out with next.
Leigh wrote: "Hey guys, As this is not a review, but a discussion, I hope that it's okay for me to be weighing in. If I've overstepped I apologize.
I did quite a bit of research for Shadow and Bone and I cit..."
Great reply, Leigh. Thanks for the background. Storytelling is a tough craft, and blunders aside, Shadow and Bone has been very well received.
Just a little bit of random information for anyone who's interested:In the German translation, the family names have been modified according to the Russian language's rules when it comes to naming.
Alina is now called Starkova (Starkowa in the German translation) and Ilya Morozova has become Ilya Morozov (Ilja Morozow).
That's true! The names (and lots of other things) vary among the foreign editions. For instance, in the Italian version and several others, Starkov and Morozova remain the same. In Brazil, Mal's name has been changed to Maly, and in the Polish edition the volcra became wilkry (plural) and wilkier (singular). Occasionally, the translators contact me directly with questions, and when I had a chance to speak with my Polish translator, I did mention that some readers had objected to the use of "kvas" for hard spirits. Given that kwas chlebowy is common in Poland, I worried that this might be an issue. But the translator felt strongly that it should remain as-is for just that reason. Again, I can't speak to the success of the choices, only the reasoning behind them.
Once again, I hope it's okay for me to be chatting with you guys here. If it's putting a damper on the conversation or in any way inappropriate, I'm happy to bow out.
In my opinion, this isn't a textbook. It's a storybook. We aren't supposed to learn anything from "Shadow and Bone". We're supposed to read it, and be inspired to learn more from reliable sources.Bardugo introduced you to Russia (sort of), go and find out more about it by yourself!
Udachi!
Laura wrote: "In my opinion, this isn't a textbook. It's a storybook. We aren't supposed to learn anything from "Shadow and Bone". We're supposed to read it, and be inspired to learn more from reliable sources..."
Oh, and what about the people who already knew this Russian Folklore and the language like me? I didn't get annoyed about it, I straight-up laughed at this book because of it. Frankly, it made my experience more enjoyable.
And you always learn something from a book--in anything--if it's academic or for pure entertainment. But then again that's my opinion. Even though Alina came from humble beginnings, thought she was just thin, despondent, and weak she discovered something within herself that gave her encouragement and grew into someone confident, strong, and brave and took responsibility of protecting her homeland. That's what I learned. No, it's not educational but this: A Theme. Please give Bardugo more credit than that.
And people who are as you said "inspired" to look this stuff up, they well LEARN that the book's information isn't right in the first place.
Oh, and what about the people who already knew this Russian Folklore and the language like me? I didn't get annoyed about it, I straight-up laughed at this book because of it. Frankly, it made my experience more enjoyable.
And you always learn something from a book--in anything--if it's academic or for pure entertainment. But then again that's my opinion. Even though Alina came from humble beginnings, thought she was just thin, despondent, and weak she discovered something within herself that gave her encouragement and grew into someone confident, strong, and brave and took responsibility of protecting her homeland. That's what I learned. No, it's not educational but this: A Theme. Please give Bardugo more credit than that.
And people who are as you said "inspired" to look this stuff up, they well LEARN that the book's information isn't right in the first place.
Rachel wrote: "If you want to base a book off of a culture that is not your own, you can't pick and choose certain aspects of it and morph them into something that's kiiiiind of like it but not really. Do that and you will offend the people you're basing your story off of. You either write about it truthfully and accurately, or you construct a world that is yours and yours alone and is merely INSPIRED by the culture in question. That means you don't use their language or religion or traditions. You create your own language, your own religion, your own traditions"Rachel, you had addressed the poor research problem and the so-called Russia-inspired fantasy claim beautifully. I personally know little about Russian culture, but I do think it's unforgivable for an 'author' to mess up someone else culture like this. For example, how would American readers react when they read a book about an 'America-inspired' fantasy world in where the heroine is called John and people get drunk on soda and the magic users call themselves "the Tom"? They would be just as pissed off as well.
Crimson wrote: "And not only that she is also giving false information. People might actually think the stuff she put in there is accurate and that causes assumptions that aren't even correct.That in itself is another reason it's offensive. And that plays into the stereotype that all Americans are dumb. "
Anyone here hears of Tracy Chevalier before? Whenever this woman changed this or that historical details in her historical novels and sketched the facts up, she *always* makes notes on the Acknowledgments that she did change this or that details. She takes care to make sure her readers know where her imagination ends and where historical facts begin. Is that a little too much to ask for?
Back then, when I read a novel, I atomically assured that this novel is at least *qualified enough* and the author would have enough respect to make sure he or she didn't make too big or notable a mistake before said book got a green light to publish; but now books like Shadow and Bone and Colleen Hock's Tiger's Curse has successfully cured me of my own ignorance.
No, lack of respect and poor research make published books unreliable.
Mizuki wrote: "Rachel wrote: "If you want to base a book off of a culture that is not your own, you can't pick and choose certain aspects of it and morph them into something that's kiiiiind of like it but not rea..."I wouldn't be pissed off. I just wouldn't want to read the book. I wouldn't see it as some personal attack against my heritage/culture.
Good to hear you still have the chance to walk away, Laura; but for me, I was already in before some reviwers enlightened me about those eye popping mistakes.
Again, I hope that because this is a forum as opposed to the comments on a review, author participation is acceptable. My goal in entering the conversation was to attempt to offer some insight into the decisions regarding language in Shadow and Bone. I've discussed that reasoning in my first comment and in the links I included there. (I also included a link to some pretty harsh criticism of my work.) The title of this thread asked if I had addressed the "inconsistencies" in the books, and I've tried to make clear that they were (with one exception that I know of) deliberate choices. I guess it's also worth saying that my editor and I did discuss including an "Author's Note" at the end of the book and there are certainly email threads regarding that issue that predate publication by many months.
Okay, so that's me indulging what I think is a natural impulse to be defensive about the particulars. But honestly, I think that debate may put emphasis on the wrong issue. Because regardless of my intent, I can acknowledge that the choices I made in building the language and culture of Ravka came from a place of insularity and a type of privilege. Some readers have had an understandably negative response to those choices and I would never try to dismiss that response or in any way minimize its validity. I've taken it to heart and it's something that I've tried to be conscious of as I move forward in the series and my other work.
I do want to offer one more thing. It's been suggested that no one with a knowledge of Slavic language or culture could enjoy this series, but that hasn't been my experience. I've certainly encountered critics, but I've also had Russian fans at my signings here in the US, received kind emails from readers in Russia and Ukraine who have read the book in English, and most recently the book was published in Bulgaria and received a favorable response. (I can't speak to what choices the translator may have made since I haven't received my copies yet, but they did choose to keep the series titled "Grischa." Interview with Scifi.bg in Bulgarian here http://scifi.bg/?p=21414 and in English here http://scifi.bg/statii/leigh-bardugo-...)
Does this in any way negate the responses of readers who didn't enjoy the series or the way the culture was presented? Absolutely not. But it's part of the narrative of how the book has been received, and just as the criticism is important to me, the positive response to the books is important to me as well.
Thanks for hearing me out. I hope I haven't overstepped or bogged down the thread too much.
Leigh wrote: "...and most recently the book was published in Bulgaria and received a favorable response...I am a Bulgarian who has read the first book, Shadow and Bone, in English and I can honestly say that I wholeheartedly enjoyed it!
Leigh wrote: "Again, I hope that because this is a forum as opposed to the comments on a review, author participation is acceptable. My goal in entering the conversation was to attempt to offer some insight in..."
Its really nice to see an author respond to criticism so eloquently. I'll tell ya that is NOT what I'm used to seeing and it is a really nice change. Thank you for responding to your readers.
Dear Ms. Leigh: Do allow me to highlight a few points here:
(1) Knowing you had intentionally twisting Russian last names and language around doesn't make things any better.
(2) Knowing that you had done your research, but then chose to twist an existing culture and language around anyway, doesn't make your behavior look much better than doing poor research.
(3) Do you realize how ironic it is to have Russian words such as 'tsar' and 'tsaritsa' thrown at us in random, when we're being told that this fantasy world named Ravka is not supposed to be Russia?
(4) As to you bringing up how your book was 'reviewed not just by my editor, but by copy editors, proofreaders, multiple foreign editors, and foreign copy editors. It's conceivable that I'm a dullard who can't be bothered with the most cursory research, but that all of those people are also dullards seems a little more far-fetched.' Allow me to be frank, it sounds like you are using those editors and proofreaders of yours as your shield.
Furthermore, I have to say I would be deeply sorry to hear if no one, not your editors nor your proofreaders had ever bothered to highlight any of those Russian inconsistencies (mentioned by the other reviewers) to you. It makes me feel like you had entrusted your book to the wrong people, Ms. Leigh.
(5) Once I believed authors and editors would work hard to make sure they get the historical/cultural reference/details accurate before they publish their books, so thanks for curing me of my ignorance.
Mizuki,Historical and cultural accuracies are important in contemporary and historical fiction. Not in high fantasy. Of course Ravka is only a representation of Russia. Or are you going to argue next that the existence of a "Shadow Fold" in Russia is also completely ludicrous?
If you're so interested in cultural facts being accurate, maybe you should stick to reading historical and contemporary novels and leave epic fantasy to readers with more imagination.
Sincerely,
~ A Fan of "Shadow and Bone"
Katie wrote: "Mizuki,
Historical and cultural accuracies are important in contemporary and historical fiction. Not in high fantasy. Of course Ravka is only a representation of Russia. Or are you going to argue ..."
This is NOT high fantasy. Read Martin, Tolkien, Salvatore, and Pierce then you know what REAL high fantasy is. What they write is high fantasy and guess what: EVERYTHING in them is made up even though they were inspired by history and culture too.
If you're going use basing something off a culture then at lest have the respect of said culture you're basing it off of.
Sincerely,
~A fan of "Logic"
Historical and cultural accuracies are important in contemporary and historical fiction. Not in high fantasy. Of course Ravka is only a representation of Russia. Or are you going to argue ..."
This is NOT high fantasy. Read Martin, Tolkien, Salvatore, and Pierce then you know what REAL high fantasy is. What they write is high fantasy and guess what: EVERYTHING in them is made up even though they were inspired by history and culture too.
If you're going use basing something off a culture then at lest have the respect of said culture you're basing it off of.
Sincerely,
~A fan of "Logic"
Dear Crimson,I'm sorry, but I need some clarification on your meaning. When you say "EVERYTHING in them is made up even though they were inspired by history and culture too," what part of "Shadow and Bone" are you thinking of that was not made up?
Are you suggesting that because Martin, Tolkien, Salvatore, and Pierce all wrote fantasies based on the traditional European setting that they are allowed creative freedom, while Bardugo is not allowed the same freedom because her novels are Russian inspired?
By that "logic," I could say that Tolkien was out of bounds giving his character a name like Samwise. He should have used the traditional English name Samuel. I could say that it's ridiculous for him to have a female character who acts as a warrior, because this kind of behavior was taboo in Medieval Europe. If a woman like Eowyn had really existed, she would have been decried as a witch and burned at the stake.
Katie wrote: "Historical and cultural accuracies are important in contemporary and historical fiction. Not in high fantasy. "Wait, hold on! Historical and cultural accurateness is NOT important in high fantasy? With these lines you can easily get away with murder. Good for you.
And what high fantasy are you talking about here? I don't claim to be an expert of the genre. But the last time I read a high fantasy novel, I don't remember having random words that exist in our reality world thrown in my face.
Mind you, I'm talking about existing Russian words and nouns and even an existing Russian drink, being randomly thrown in your so-called high fantasy world. Are we now in some Doctor Who's universe, where alternative universes are possible?
If you're so interested in cultural facts being accurate, maybe you should stick to reading historical and contemporary novels and leave epic fantasy to readers with more imagination.
Again, I see you getting away with murder with those fine lines of yours...I had read books that bent historical facts and fantasy together whilst at the same time, still manage to be historical and cultural accurate. I can't see why should the standard be lowered all of a sudden for the sake of Shadow and Bone.
Sincerely,
~A fan of "authors be respectful to foreign cultures"
Mizuki wrote: "Katie wrote: "Historical and cultural accuracies are important in contemporary and historical fiction. Not in high fantasy. "Wait, hold on! Historical and cultural accurateness is NOT important i..."
All right, let me ask this: Without the Russian-sounding words (whether or not they were accurate to true Russian culture), how would a reader get the sense of the richness of the Russian-inspired culture in "Shadow and Bone"? You say other fantasies don't throw random words of a language at us, like "tsar"? Umm....probably because 99% of high fantasy novels are based on a European setting, and the distinction is not needed. It's always "king" and "queen," never anything else, because in England there is a king and queen.
And which books have you read, exactly, that bend historical facts and fantasy together. I would think the existence of actual historical facts would negate the label of "high fantasy" in a book. High Fantasy is supposed to be entirely fabricated and should not include histories taken from real life. If a fantasy does include any element of true history, I suppose it is the author being lazy and not wanting to come up with their own unique history for a story.
And I noticed, by the way, that you state you had absolutely no problem with the "inaccuracies" in "Shadow and Bone" until you realized that other readers had pointed them out. It's always nice to meet people who can't think for themselves but who jump on the first bandwagon that rolls by. Good for you.
Lastly, I'd like to add that if Ravka was too much like Russia, I would think of it as Russia and not as a fantasy world. I appreciate that Bardugo gives the reader enough to get a sense of the rich, Russian-inspired setting while maintaining Ravka as a fabricated world.
Dear Miss Leigh Bardugo,
If the inconsistencies in your novels were such a huge distraction to readers, your books never would have become bestsellers. Please don't hinder your imagination while writing books because of hurtful comments. Please and thank you. :)
If you look in the back of the book, I'm pretty sure she sited a few books.
Leigh wrote: "Hey guys, As this is not a review, but a discussion, I hope that it's okay for me to be weighing in. If I've overstepped I apologize.
I did quite a bit of research for Shadow and Bone and I cit..."
Leah,
You are one of my all time favorite authors, I believe that you are incredibly talented. Shadow and Bone made me laugh and cry uncontrollably. It was, For me at least, One of those rare reading experiences that touches you on all levels. It is a beautiful piece of literary genius. If you were to ever quit writing for any reason I would be heartbroken. :)
Katie wrote: "Mizuki wrote: "Katie wrote: "Historical and cultural accuracies are important in contemporary and historical fiction. Not in high fantasy. "Wait, hold on! Historical and cultural accurateness is ..."
Katie,
BRA-FREAKIN'-VO
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Leigh wrote: "Hey guys, As this is not a review, but a discussion, I hope that it's okay for me to be weighing in. If I've overstepped I apologize.
I did quite a bit of research for Shadow and Bone and I cit..."
But you gendered some surnames and not the others, it was really weird to me.
It also sounds like your using your editors as a shield
In my opinion you can't compare this to Tolkien, I don't have a problem with the made up words like volcra, but Bardugo based this solely on Russia and should get her Russianness strait.Tolkien drew ideas from many cultures, but not too much from any one. And though it took place in medieval times I don't have a problem with Eowyn being a warrior, same as I don't have a problem with guns in SaB. And you can't argue that Samwise should be Samuel because that's the traditional English name. Non of the characters have English names or surnames, Frodo, Aragorn, Bilbo, Merryweather, Took, Baggins, Brandybuck. Not English.
People in Middle Earth don't even speak English, What you read (or hear in the movie) is a made up language called Westron. Translated so you can actually understand it. People in SaB have Russian names and use Russian words, therefor Russian is indeed the language they are using.
And just as a note to someone up there (not sure who), Tolkien didn't base Elvish of anything, there's no such thing as Elvish. There's Quenya, Sindarin and at least two others. Tolkien created a full history for his world, languages with grammar rules, wrote out whole alphabets for said languages, and had the life story and extended relatives of almost every character before he even started writing the actual story. Everybody needs a hobby.
Grisha is the Russian name Greg, it's hilarious in the worst way. to quote K.L.
Just imagine a world where the magical elite are collectively known as The Greg, or The Bob, or The Mike. It's ridiculous. And in "sovreinnya" (spell check), the suffix "ya" is both feminine and plural.WTF? You can't just add cliché Russian sounding suffixes, they have meaning.
I don't want rant, but Ilya Morozova, let's examine this. Bardugo said she intentionally didn't gender surnames. Yet she did with Morozova, this is a female name. Yet Ilya is always a male name. Always. It might sound feminine to an American but it never is. Same with Nikita and Misha. Always male.
I repeat, hilarious in the worst way possible.
Ana K*** actually means why the f***, come on, you couldn't have a Russian proofread your work to make sure something like this didn't happen? That's sloppy. What's are favorite quote people?
Hi wrote: "In my opinion you can't compare this to Tolkien, I don't have a problem with the made up words like volcra, but Bardugo based this solely on Russia and should get her Russianness strait.Tolkien dr..."
I wish there was a 'like' button right now.
Katie wrote: "Mizuki wrote: "Katie wrote: "Historical and cultural accuracies are important in contemporary and historical fiction. Not in high fantasy. "Wait, hold on! Historical and cultural accurateness is ...how would a reader get a sense of the richness of the Russian inspired culture."
There is no cultural richness, you could easily replace from of the words of this book and have it Japanese inspired. You don't get any sense of Russianess.
At one point Alina says " great to see you guys", that is 100% pop culture right there, not Russian inspired fantasy culture.
The only sense of Russia is stereotypical. People in Ravka wear fur hats, play the balalaika, pour tea from samovars, and are always drunk. (On kvass, which is ridiculous). If you said that's not stereotypes you'd be lying. All you need know is a ballet number and some Communism.
And Miss Bardugo, is there really nothing you could use instead of kvass? Pivo, braga, and samogon don't work? Can't settle with just vodka? Oh I see, well it is fantasy, you could always, oh I don't know, make one up. For your already-made-up country full of made up words. Wait, that wouldn't work.
Rachel wrote: "So has it been established that Bardugo never tried to integrate herself into Russian culture? Did she talk about visiting the country or the amount of research she did? How much of the Russian inf..."I don't know about needing to integrate yourself into Russian culture...honestly, knowing that Russian names end in 'ov' for males and 'ova' for females (if they have an -ov/a ending at all, that is) takes, like, a MINIMAL amount of research. I'm sure if you put 'Russian surnames' into wikipedia, they'll discuss masculine and feminine endings. That's how basic we're talking here. It's not really a big secret.
I definitely don't hold fantasy to the same standards as contemporary lit and certainly not historical fiction in this regard, but...there's just no reason to switch the -ov -ova thing, and since it's sooo easy to learn, it just really shows she didn't put a lot of thought into how she was using Russian at all.
Same with kvass. Why would you mention a drink - particularly a drink like that, which is rather specific - without looking up what it actually is? I mean, how did she even know about it without knowing that it's non-alcoholic? If you look up kvass on wiki, literally the first thing they say about it is that it's non-alcoholic. And it's just sort of silly, because, um, vodka is pretty authentically Russian, and definitely alcoholic.
It's just irritating to see mistakes like this on stuff that's really just...not that complicated. You don't have to know a TON about Russian culture or history to know these things, and you definitely don't need to be Russian. I just feel like, if you're going to use this premise, wouldn't you at least do a little bit of research? To get -ov and -ova and kvas right, really would not take a ton of research. So, basically, this tells me she didn't bother to do any.
And, by the way, I'm not Russian at all. I studied it in college, yeah, but like...this stuff is not complicated. You don't need a degree in Russian to get this stuff.
Emily wrote: "Rachel wrote: "So has it been established that Bardugo never tried to integrate herself into Russian culture? Did she talk about visiting the country or the amount of research she did? How much of ..."Bardugo said most of the choices she made were deliberate. But I still don't think they were good ones. I wanted to throw this book against a wall, only it was an ebook.
And people keep saying here that people who don't like the Russian inconsistencies are nit-picking haters. Well I was offended by this book, literally on the first page is a women named Whythe F***. The elite with magical powers are collectively known as the Greg. Which is not offensive but laughable in a bad way. Ilya is boy's name, yet Bardugo used it for a girl just because she thought it sounded like a girl name. It does end in "a", but that's not an exuse. I said this before and I'll say it again, not having a Russian or Russian speaking person proofread to make sure nothing was offensive or ridiculous, especially since you have no understanding of the language or culture, is sloppy.
I don't have a problem with made up words or names, it's fantasy, but if she's going to use real words and names she needs to use them right.
As a Russian, I was able to enjoy the story even with all the inaccuracies present in it. Yes, I couldn't read "Ana Kuya" with a straight face, and the use of names and surnames without any regard to gender was confusing, but other than that I didn't have any problems. I didn't really view Ravka as Russia, nor was it the author's intention. Yes, you can't get drunk on kvas in real life, but in Ravka you can. Is it so hard to imagine that?
Thank you, Natalia. I'm not sure I can contribute anything further to the conversation. I hope that those of you quoting me will go back and read the responses I posted. (I believe there are two.)
I've acknowledged that, though my choices were predominantly deliberate (Ana Kuya is a notable exception), they were not necessarily good choices. They were made from a position of insularity and, to a certain extent, naivete about some of the implications of the ways we choose to use and represent cultures in fantasy. All I can do is commit to being more conscious and thoughtful in the choices I make as I move forward in my work.
I hope I haven't made anyone uncomfortable by entering this discussion. I know author involvement on Goodreads can be a touchy thing, so I'm going to step away from this thread. But I am happy to answer emails or private messages, and I'm always available on twitter or tumblr.
All the best,
Leigh
Hi wrote: "Emily wrote: "Rachel wrote: "So has it been established that Bardugo never tried to integrate herself into Russian culture? Did she talk about visiting the country or the amount of research she did..."Right, I don't really think it's nit-picking. I don't necessarily think that every Russian person or person who's studied Russian and Russian culture will automatically hate these books, but these types of misuses and inaccuracies CAN just be irritating to some readers of this background. I don't find it offensive so much as just plain annoying, which makes it difficult to connect to the rest of the story when you're constantly distracted by these little things.
Ravka is not Russia - that's fine, but I do still think if you're going to base a fictional place on a real place and a real culture, you should still follow basic naming patterns at the very least - otherwise, what's the point? I see the author has responded by saying the choices are deliberate, but, I think in general, for any other writers on this forum, if you think that something you're writing may look like an error or a mistake to certain readers, then it's probably going to. If you can establish the stylistic change within the narrative and make your readers understand why something's different from how it is in real life, that's fine, but if it's just going to look like a typo or that you don't understand what you're doing, that's not fine. One one hand, it can be offensive, because it will seem like you don't care about the culture enough to put the time in to research it. That's a legitimate response, I think. Not everyone is so sensitive, and so for some, it can just be, quite simply, annoying. Errors in writing - especially repetitive ones - are irritating, and it makes little difference if they're actual errors or not - if your reader understands them to be one, it's going to be a turn off.
I do acknowledge Leigh has addressed this issue, and I think that's important, but I'm speaking beyond this specific book, as cultural misrepresentation and poorly explained stylistic changes are certainly not unique to this book.
Emily, thank you. You summed up how I feel about this whole thing. Plus I also can't see how Leigh Bardugo's choices being deliberate is supposed to make everything alright, it doesn't.PS: I know very little about Russian words, culture and tradition but already I find how said words, culture and tradition being treated in this book offensive and annoying.
Mizuki wrote: "Rachel wrote: "If you want to base a book off of a culture that is not your own, you can't pick and choose certain aspects of it and morph them into something that's kiiiiind of like it but not rea...""THE TOM!"
Hi wrote: "In my opinion you can't compare this to Tolkien, I don't have a problem with the made up words like volcra, but Bardugo based this solely on Russia and should get her Russianness strait.Tolkien dr..."
Wait, Nikita is male?
But what, what... what about Luc Bessons "Nikita" she's asskicking female, and that cute soldier in the Elton John Video, as female as they come. :)
I think you do have to cut westerners some slack there, it's just too beautiful a name to waste on men. :D
Actually, when I look up Russian swear words What the F is translated differently?
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