Ancient & Medieval Historical Fiction discussion
This topic is about
Sworn Sword
Monthly Group Reads
>
NOVEMBER 2013 (Group Read 2) Sworn Sword by James Aitcheson
It really could be CSR, combat stress reaction, a variant of PTSD
Daniel wrote: "It really could be CSR, combat stress reaction, a variant of PTSD"He does have some nightmares and trouble sleeping but I don't see the mood swings, anxiety, any panic attack symptoms, etc. At least at the point where I am, it doesn't seem like he has any clinical diagnosis unless we just don't see deep enough within him (he's not revealing enough of himself to us, his supposed therapists :P).
Terri wrote: "That's okay. I am familiar with ptsd. :)I was only commenting on it in relation to Tancred as a soldier due to the way he is. I felt that considering what he had been through (including non battl..."
Absolutely. I agree. I think although we only know about PTSD these days, that it must have existed before. I often wonder about the Beserkers, those who went mad in battle and wonder whether this was related to a form of PTSD and one of the ancient stories of Wales talks about Merlin having Battle Madness and withdraws from the world into a cave - or something line that. In my novel, my own character has PTSD. It think it was probably quite prevalent through out the ages
Alicja wrote: "Daniel wrote: "It really could be CSR, combat stress reaction, a variant of PTSD"He does have some nightmares and trouble sleeping but I don't see the mood swings, anxiety, any panic attack sympt..."
too true, he is not making it easy
Now that I am reading with PTSD in mind, I am noticing little things... still not sure if there is a diagnosis there but there are small indications of instability. Maybe his seriousness, and I think maybe desire to have complete control over himself, is related? Or I'm just reading way too much into this.
I'm so pleased to tell you that i have now got my replacement copy of the book i lost so I am back in the game!
Paula wrote: "I'm so pleased to tell you that i have now got my replacement copy of the book i lost so I am back in the game!"Yay! Now you have some catching up to do!
I just finished and gave it three stars. I enjoyed it enough to put the other two books in the series on my TBR list but found Tancred almost too nice for me to truly enjoy the book. I prefer my soldiers to be a bit more of a rogue. :)
Jarrod wrote: "I just finished and gave it three stars. I enjoyed it enough to put the other two books in the series on my TBR list but found Tancred almost too nice for me to truly enjoy the book. I prefer my so..."Is that the only reason you gave it a three?
Ok so i have met the dreaded Beatrice and so far it seems that it is Tancred who is being rude to her lol.
Paula wrote: "Is that the only reason you gave it a three?"Not the only reason. I found the plot a bit weak and had Tancred been a little more 'bad ass' (probably not the best word but the best I can come up with right now) I would have enjoyed the situations he got himself into more. I'm probably unfairly comparing Tancred with Uhtred or Raven.
Paula wrote: "Ok so i have met the dreaded Beatrice and so far it seems that it is Tancred who is being rude to her lol."That's what I thought as well; I kept expecting Beatrice to do something to incur everyone's ire so.
That (view spoiler) with Beatrice was the most awkward thing ever. I just don't see it, and I really didn't care for her butting into his life. I just finished it today too, and Tancred is too serious for my liking but I can see more depth brewing under his exterior, I just wish the author took that extra step and let us inside some more. But I think he was bad ass enough slashing and killing all over the place. I enjoyed the battles and fighting, I think they were very well written realistic and graphic but not gratuitous.
Warning! The following spoiler spoils the ending in a big way, do not read unless you have actually finished the book: (view spoiler)
I liked this novel a lot and will be definitely reading the next two novels.
Jarrod wrote: "Paula wrote: "Is that the only reason you gave it a three?"Not the only reason. I found the plot a bit weak and had Tancred been a little more 'bad ass' (probably not the best word but the best I..."
Ok. Fair enough. Yes any character would have a job living up to someone like Uhtred
I need to read the book later for various reasons, but I find this discussion of PTSD fascinating because I'm starting to think about similar questions.No matter what one's society was like, the initial experience of battle must have been horrifying—maybe more horrifying in an age of swords, axes, and arrows. How does it change the balance if you live in a place where every male of a certain age and class must expect to spend half of every year at war? In some ways, it must make it harder to share feelings for fear of looking like a wuss; in other ways, perhaps easier, since so many people have undergone the same experience.
I wonder, too, if that doesn't explain in part the emotional distance between men and women in medieval and early modern times. The noblemen who set the cultural standards are so cut off, in terms of their life experiences, from the women closest to them, and vice versa.
Big questions, I know, but I am curious to hear what you guys think.
I started responding and realised I was writing large my current research. Since that turned out to be far too long and was becoming convoluted I decided to be brief. I believe that there are too many variables in class conduct/expectations and differences in how war is conducted to generalise the detatchements between men and women of the nobility as resulting from PTSD.
C.P. wrote: "I need to read the book later for various reasons, but I find this discussion of PTSD fascinating because I'm starting to think about similar questions.No matter what one's society was like, the ..."
In this particular society there were different classes of warriors - there were the professional fulltime warriors - the huscarles, notably the English rank versions of the Norman knights; the landholding thegns who's military service was part time, 2 months of the year, mainly owed to the King or an Earl for the use of their land,then there were the 5 hide fyrdsman, 1 man for every 5 hides had to be provided for the King's fyrd, they too did only 2 months a year. Then of course there was the levy, called out in national emergencies such as the Battle of Hastings, where every man who could fight was expected to heed the call up any time of year. It was a very complex system and there were regional variables.
The Norman's system was slightly different but they too had a professional warrior class in the knights who were either landless or held land in lieu of their service for their immediate lord. Essentially most semi professionals weren't caught up for more than 2 months a year, but it only took one major battle to cause trauma. It just depended on their resilience i guess. I believe that King Harold may have been suffering psychologically at the Battle of Hastings because of what he had had to endure in the 9 months of his reign, especially in the weeks prior to the Battle of Hastings, having to march north quickly after the stress of waiting for William to invade, only to have to do battle with his own brother, see his brother killed in battle and then march back again to fight William. It must have caused a lot of stress.
By the way, I am not a great fan of books written in the first person, although one of my favourite series is The Uhtred Books of Mr Cornwell. However, this being in the first person hasn't put me off at all, I am enjoying it very much but i do think you miss out on so much depth when it is written this way. I also wonder how on earth anyone can remember what they did in a fight in such detail as Uhtred and Tancred do, lol. The fact that he remembers all his battle moves step by step is incredible!
Funny, I like first person; I feel I get more of the person's inner thoughts and motivations. Good point, how can anyone remember step-by-step what happened in battle? I guess the reader has to suspend belief to some extent in those situations. :)
Questions about PTSD in modern terms are hard enough to define and analyze. Trying to superimpose them on medieval life might be an effort in futility. But then the only person I know with PTSD happens to be 5 years old and it had nothing to do with war.I personally think there were too many other factors to medieval life and culture to say that something like PTSD would have had a significant factor in the relations between the sexes.
Jane wrote: "Funny, I like first person; I feel I get more of the person's inner thoughts and motivations. Good point, how can anyone remember step-by-step what happened in battle? I guess the reader has to ..."
Yes I guess they do have to use the old belief-suspension tool. I get that the main character's inner machinations are on show, but what about other people's perceptions and i also like to get an objective feel of all the main characters and also you only see what the 'first person' sees, so you cant see all the events first hand - if you know what i mean...
You've got a point too, Paula. I think in 3d person novels, everyone's perceptions are given equal play, whereas like you say in 1st person, it concentrates on the main character but the others are given 3d person treatment....
Jane wrote: "You've got a point too, Paula. I think in 3d person novels, everyone's perceptions are given equal play, whereas like you say in 1st person, it concentrates on the main character but the others ar..."Still, i do rate this book so far, and was wondering if i would like the Uhtred books as much as i do if it were written differently
Just a guess -- but I would think any [or many] authors consider and play around with both voices and finally decide on the one they think will tell the story best for their purpose.
Jarrod wrote: "Not the only reason. I found the plot a bit weak and had Tancred been a little more 'bad ass' (probably not the best word but the best I..."
Oh. But wouldn't that make Tancred a stereotype hero? ;)
I like that Tancred is so different to the overdone steroetype male characters that are out there. the super cool dude with all the right moves.
They both seem unusual personality types, then -- Tancred and the woman. You know I could get interested...
message 178:
by
Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd
(last edited Nov 11, 2013 03:57PM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
C.P. wrote: "I need to read the book later for various reasons, but I find this discussion of PTSD fascinating because I'm starting to think about similar questions.No matter what one's society was like, the ..."
So hard to detail more of Tancred's trials and tribulations without spoiling storylines..*sigh*..I'll say something in a spoiler. Please nobody look if you are reading the book and don't want to know storylines.
(view spoiler)
Even though humans were more hardened back then to the harsh reality of life, I too believe that conditions such as ptsd and combat stress would have existed.
Only they did not have a name or diagnosis for it.
Since a lot of veterans with serious injury ended up in monastic hospitals, I wonder if there are records of veterans exhibiting symptoms post trauma in these places.
Two novels that give an insight into potential ptsd or combat stress that I have read are..
The Crusaderand
The Last English KingBoth contain a main character having extreme reaction to their war experience. In fact The Last English King sees the main character having a complete meltdown post Norman Invasion.
Terri wrote: "Both contain a main character having extreme reaction to their war experience."Both damned good books.
I too have been trying not to go off on research kicks, from the topic. Have read about combat stress as experienced in hunter-gatherer societies.
Paula wrote: "By the way, I am not a great fan of books written in the first person, although one of my favourite series is The Uhtred Books of Mr Cornwell. However, this being in the first person hasn't put me ..."I agree, Paula. First person can steal away many opportunities for an author to present depth to a character. It does give other opportunities that other methods lose I suppose, but there are definitely some sacrifices when an author uses first person.
This is why Robert Low decided not to write the latest in his Oathsworn series, Crowbone in first person. He had written all previous books in the series first person.
For a fan of that series it was interesting to see a different character's (Crowbone) take on Orm Bearslayer. Orm being the first person narration up until the Crowbone book.
It wasn't until Low wrote Crowbone, that I realised how much I was missing by only being in one character's head for the first 4 books.
Bryn wrote: "I too have been trying not to go off on research kicks, from the topic. Have..."
Truly? how do they go about validating that research?
@Terri By early-style societies that have survived. As similar as possible to how we once lived. In New Guinea and...
ah. Interesting.
I have a sneaky suspicion that Berserkers may have had some sort of condition of 'Battle Madness' which i am sure i have see that term used somewhere....
Paula wrote: "I have a sneaky suspicion that Berserkers may have had some sort of condition of 'Battle Madness' which i am sure i have see that term used somewhere...."CuChulainn is said to have had battle madness. But it's a bit described a bit differently than what Berserkers experienced, but probably close enough, even if slightly mythologised.
oooo..bloody great links, Paula. Well done. Some good reading to be had there.
Yes, excellent articles, Paula.Now I'm going to lower the tone and say, that's why I liked BBC TV's Robin Hood: they examined combat stress in ex-Crusaders. ! In quite a serious way. Sorry, both off-topic and low.
Did they? You did love that series didn't you. ;)
Bryn wrote: "Yes, excellent articles, Paula.Now I'm going to lower the tone and say, that's why I liked BBC TV's Robin Hood: they examined combat stress in ex-Crusaders. ! In quite a serious way. Sorry, both o..."
I should be working tonight but now I'm looking to watch Robin Hood. :P
lol. ;)
Uh oh, Alicja. I can only hope you find enjoyment.
Bryn wrote: "Uh oh, Alicja. I can only hope you find enjoyment."I hope so too. Gotta sneak it in past the girlfriend, I am sure if she catches me goofing off again with a deadline looming I'd get in trouble again. :P
Alicja wrote: "Bryn wrote: "Uh oh, Alicja. I can only hope you find enjoyment."I hope so too. Gotta sneak it in past the girlfriend, I am sure if she catches me goofing off again with a deadline looming I'd get..."
One should not need to sneak around with Robin Hood.
Although...I suppose he was an outlaw..strike that. Seems one must sneak around with Robin Hood.
Terri wrote: "Alicja wrote: "Bryn wrote: "Uh oh, Alicja. I can only hope you find enjoyment."I hope so too. Gotta sneak it in past the girlfriend, I am sure if she catches me goofing off again with a deadline ..."
Hehe, that makes it sound like I'm having an affair with Robin Hood... which I guess in a way I am. :)
Terri wrote: "oooo..bloody great links, Paula. Well done. Some good reading to be had there."Yes, those are really useful. Thanks, Paula!
I have to tell you that I so love this book. I thought I would some how, even if it is (May all forgive me for my anti Norman sentiment) told from the viewpoint of one of the 'invaders'. I'm just a the part where Tancred is leading them to the wharf to get the ship to London and they get caught up in some trouble.
Ancient & Medieval Historical Fiction
Books mentioned in this topic
Knights of the Hawk (other topics)Knights of the Hawk (other topics)
Sworn Sword (other topics)
Sworn Sword (other topics)
The Norman Conquest: The Battle of Hastings and the Fall of Anglo-Saxon England (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
David Howarth (other topics)Giles Kristian (other topics)
Robert Low (other topics)
I was only commenting on it in relation to Tancred as a soldier due to the way he is. I felt that considering what he had been through (including non battl..."
Acting morose would be more of a depression (which can be related to ptsd) but I don't see enough to diagnose, he'd need significant stress from intrusive memories, nightmares (he does have some), dissociative reactions, etc. There just isn't enough to diagnose that. And even then he wouldn't meet enough criteria for MDD.