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Twelve Years a Slave
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November Buddy Read: Twelve Years A Slave
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If you gained your freedom and you still had family in bondage, one way to gain their freedom was to buy them. And this happened in the New World! So it was one way that Black people were recorded as the owners of slaves! Using the Slave system to actually make people free.
I am new to the concept of black slavers. I recently heard about it about a year ago and ever since I have been obsessed with the history behind it. In fact I am strongly considering placing my recently finished rough draft manuscript on hold while developing the concept of a novel on the subject. But to be quite honest there isn't a lot online about the subject (though I did find a real live list of blacks who owned slaves). So thanks for the book referral.
kisha wrote: "Andrew...If you gained your freedom and you still had family in bondage, one way to gain their freedom was to buy them. And this happened in the New World! So it was one way that Black people we..."
Yes Kisha. I think we have to admit that our people were involved in the trade as well. I was in Ghana this summer and there is a definite recognition of the involvement of Black people in the trade there. Really Europeans could never have achieved what they did during slavery without the connivance of Black people. But that is a whole other story!
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kisha I have had The Known World by Edward P. Jones on my list for a while, and it deals with the subject of a black slave owner. Maybe we could keep it in mind for a future group/buddy read.
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Slavery was very unique and there are so many different stories and that is why i love the subject! When I created the main character of my book i struggled to pick a direction because there was so much i didn't know. Some slaves were educated some were not...some owners were nice some were cruel. A few slave owners were black. While i was reading 12 years a slave i had to clear my mind of the typical slave story...and put myself in his shoes. This man is educated and was stuck in a god awful situation. Its kind of like being in prison for a crime you didn't commit...you cant trust the guards or your fellow inmates at times.
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Arrogance and naivety are STILL a dangerous combination of traits even in 2013 haha!
kisha wrote: " Arrogance and naivety are STILL a dangerous combination of traits even in 2013 haha!"Most definitely!
R.E. wrote: "Its kind of like being in prison for a crime you didn't commit..."
True. Except that ALL the prisoners are innocent.
Let not those who have never been placed in like circumstances, judge me harshly. Until they have been chained and beaten -- until they find themselves in the situation I was, borne away from home and family towards a land of bondage -- let them refreain from saying what they would not do for liberty. During chapter 5, Solomon, Arthur, and Robert ( both also kidnapped freemen) made a plan for escape. Unfortunately, Robert fell ill with smallpox and died. Solomon's statement above makes clear that he would have done whatever it took to free himself, including killing his captors. From what we know of him at this point do you think he would have done it?
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Definitely so. I don't think there is a question to ask. He thought more of himself than to be owned by anyone. And then the fact that he was forced to leave his family behind being the main provider. Yes I definitely think he would have done it.
What got to me was part when Eliza (view spoiler) How cruel is that! I know it happened and we've seen it a thousand time in slave film and books but for me just knowing that this was the truth...the real story of a woman, a mother and two children...omg that broke my heart It was very humbling because through Eliza I was forced to realize that I am truly blessed. Just when you think you have it bad someone has it far worse. Someone else is dealing with the unthinkable. This novel really makes you reflect on your own life. Had I been Eliza I think that I, a woman of faith, honesty and peace, would have been capable of murder and who knows what else at that moment.
Londa wrote: " Let not those who have never been placed in like circumstances, judge me harshly. Until they have been chained and beaten -- until they find themselves in the situation I was, borne away from home..."He and his companions seemed to have carefully planned their escape and I’m sure they would have gone through with it. I think having the support of Arthur and Robert helped Solomon make his decision.
Lamentations 1:2. She weepeth sore in the night, and her tears are on her cheeks: among all her lovers she hath none to comfort her: all her friends have dealt treacherously with her, they are become her enemies.
Solomon/Wilson chose quite an appropriate verse for Eliza didn't they. The narrator that I listened to did the separation scene very well. My heart felt like it was breaking. I can imagine that this will be a tear jerking part of the movie. Can you imagine how far she fell? At one point she had servants waiting on her and her children, and now she has no idea what is going to happen to them. Freeman indicated that he had lecherous plans for Emily.
I think this shows just how precarious the life of a Black person would be in a Slave society. She lived as the wife of her owner but that still didn’t protect her. As you see later on in the book that despite Solomon having the protection of Ford, he was nearly murdered more than once. And Solomon was a freeman from a Northern state but still ended up a captive.
It was a common for some Black Women to be the kept mistresses of rich White men, a common practice in states like Louisiana before the Civil War. The practice is covered in the novel
The Feast of All Saints by Anne Rice, Freeman might have sort a high price for Eliza’s daughter on this basis.
Great point Andrew and a perfect theory about Freeman's plans for Emily. Are you reading Eakins edition that mentions the quadroon balls in her notes. A very interesting link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pla%C3%A...
I will add the Rice book to my TBR. Thanks
Londa wrote: "Great point Andrew and a perfect theory about Freeman's plans for Emily. Are you reading Eakins edition that mentions the quadroon balls in her notes. A very interesting link http://en.wikipedia..."
Yes indeed the practice of Plaçage. Thanks for the link. By the way a film was made of The Feast of All Saints.
I am reading the enhanced edition and I think Dr Eakins notes do complement Solomon's narrative nicely.
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kisha wrote: "Solomon mentioned that he strived to impress Ford by working hard sort of taking delight in satisfying his approval. Although Ford was a good man I was uneasy with how well he adapted to the slave..."I think he was a little confused when he presents Ford as a ‘good’ slave owner. In Chapter VII he says “the idea of a man holding brother man in servitude, Incompatible with their conceptions of moral or religious life”. He goes on to say that Ford is “kind, noble, candid” and later excuses him when he says “The influences and associations …, blinded him to the inherent wrong at the bottom of the system of Slavery”.
But I find this a little strange considering what Solomon had been through. Why did he feel that way? What does he really mean by a ‘good’ Slave owner? At the time of writing the book why would he need to portray people connected with the trade as good?
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I will give you guys my theory as to why Solomon makes a point (at several places in the novel) to acknowledge the 'good' in some slave owners and the whites that helped him. 1. We have to remember that he is talking to us through a ghost writer, a white ghost writer. I don't think he would be inclined to go the 'all white men' are evil route when recounting his experiences. Nor would Wilson be inclined to write that way.
2. He did truly believe that it was only the result of his upbringing that Ford was a slave holder, and Ford, compared to others, was more human and more humane.
Looking through the same medium with his fathers before him, he saw things in the same light. Brought up under other circumstances and other influences, his notions would have undoubtedly been different.
3. They want this story to sell. A story painting all white men with the same moral brush would probably not do well at all.
kisha and Andrew...do you guys want to go on and discuss the next section, Chapter 7 - 11 ? We have sort of started already. I will edit the schedule posts if you do.
kisha wrote: "Yes Andrew that is precisely what I struggle with in this story. For any slave owner to be "good" would be debatable. Maybe the lesser of two evils. I could see how someone raised in slavery (w..."Yes I do agree Kisha. We often hear talk about the house slave verses the field slave and the attitude of each to the slave owner. But with few exceptions (like Denmark Vesey for example), many free Black people in slave society were not rebels or in any way revolutionary and were happy to keep the status quo. Again take a look at the history of the San Domingo Revolution, I think Toussaint L'Ouverture at times had as much trouble from the free Blacks as he did from the French!
Maybe its a feeling of having too much to lose. Maybe its having more information about the consequences of his actions. Or maybe as you have said the events of his life humbled him
Londa wrote: "I will give you guys my theory as to why Solomon makes a point (at several places in the novel) to acknowledge the 'good' in some slave owners and the whites that helped him. 1. We have to rememb..."
I think you are definitely right Londa on all points.
Londa wrote: "kisha and Andrew...do you guys want to go on and discuss the next section, Chapter 7 - 11 ? We have sort of started already. I will edit the schedule posts if you do."Yes Londa I would be happy to discuss chapters 7 to 11.
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***** SPOILERS BELOW *** Open Discussion of Chapters 7 - 11 Chapter 7
Some other reviewers have been put off by the often very detailed descriptions of life, flora, and fauna in this book. I can understand that. For me though, I was very interested in his descriptions of how things were and how they looked. It lends to the validity of the story. In this chapter he describes in great detail the Native Americans he encountered. I really felt a bit sad reading that part because they seemed so happy with their way of life and yet it doesn't exist for them in that way anymore. I was also shocked to hear about longhorn cattle in Louisiana. I didn't know about that at all.
Here he also talks a lot about Ford and how much he enjoyed working for him. He was especially proud of his solution to the lumber transport issue and his loom making skills. He was an intelligent and very skilled person. I was really amazed at how he could recall people's names! That talent really came in handy when he had to prove who he was and what happened to him. I forget people's names almost as quickly as they tell me. I would have been sunk!
Chapter 8 Northup meets (and beats) Tibeats!
Northup didn't like Tibeats from day one. He probably did very little to hide that fact. Tibeats most likely picked up on his attitude as well. The scene where Northup uses Ninja moves on Tibeats and ends up spanking him upside down! I could NOT believe it! I don't see how he lived to tell the tale. I suppose the mortgage Ford held really did save his life, but I thought he was going to suffer much more for that incident.
Londa wrote: "Chapter 8 Northup meets (and beats) Tibeats!
Northup didn't like Tibeats from day one. He probably did very little to hide that fact. Tibeats most likely picked up on his attitude as well. The ..."
Yes, very impressed that Solomon gives Tibeats a beating but he was lucky to survive two murder attempts on his life!
Chapter 8Tibeats and his cronies attempt to hang Solomon but the overseer (Chapin) saves his life. Still he was left tidied up and not released until the arrival of Ford.
Still Solomon gains quiet a reputation for having ‘flogged’ Tibeats. Peter Tanner seems to offer grudging admiration for what he did. You would expect the Whites to be rather fearful of him – his actions could be deemed insurrection and he could be put to death. But I guess Tibeats was so low in their eyes that Solomon actions were seen as justified.
If you want to read something really depressing on blacks and native americans.....check out the battle of Honey Springs during the civil war 3000 black troops for the union and 3000 native americans for the south. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle.... Yup! It really happened.
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Chapter 9Solomon beats Tibeats for the second time and another attempt is made on his life.
Because of this group you've made me bust my copy of 12 years a slave back out lol... and I have been reading it. Before i got into sales i was an emmy award winning news reporter and interviewed a lot of people and read a lot police reports...and when i read his words sometimes my Bulls&%*t meter goes off. I want to believe his words as the gospel but i have to remember Solomon was an educated man and knew how to tell a good story.
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Andrew, Poor Solomon! I was so afraid for him as he battled Tibeats and ran threw the swamp. I loved how he compared his experience to the miracles and wonders of the Bible. He was truly blessed to come out of the swamp undisturbed by alligators and snakes. The dogs and Tibeats were the least of his worries! The life of a slave was so animalistic.
Then his new master (I can't think of his name) took a certain liking to humiliating. Making them laugh and dance as he beat them to his amusement. That part nearly brought tears to my eyes and I am far from sensitive.
R.E. wrote: "I want to believe his words as the gospel but i have to remember Solomon was an educated man and knew how to tell a good story.Andrew wrote: " You would expect the Whites to be rather fearful of him – his actions could be deemed insurrection and he could be put to death. But I guess Tibeats was so low in their eyes that Solomon actions were seen as justified. ..."
You two pointed out the one thing that kept bothering me about this account. The facts are all laid out on the table that *Yes, he was kidnapped *Yes, he was in bondage for 12 years BUT some parts of the story, like him beating Tibeats and fighting him with very little consequences...I just don't know about that. Especially when he goes on later to describe people handing out whippuings like candy every day. Either he didn't want to admit the extent of his 'punishment' or maybe he exaggerated the story just a tiny bit. Maybe
R.E. wrote: "If you want to read something really depressing on blacks and native americans.....check out the battle of Honey Springs during the civil war 3000 black troops for the union and 3000 native america..."Wow! Never heard of that battle. Now that would make a great premise for a book or movie. Two of the most abused groups in the history of the USA fighting against each other in the armies of their oppressors.
kisha wrote: "I loved how he compared his experience to the miracles and wonders of the Bible. He was truly blessed to come out of the swamp undisturbed by alligators and snakes..."That swamp run was crazy. I would have been paralyzed from fear. I'm pretty sure something would have eaten me.
You mentioning the Bible made me think about how Ford & Tanner (ch. 9) used their sermons to the slaves in opposite ways. Ford used his sermons to try and lift them up while Tanner used it to justify their obedience and punishments.
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I would assume that Solomon was a fan of Homer who wrote the odyssey.....an elaborate story about a voyage home.
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Yes there definitely seems to be a few things which don’t make sense. I gather Solomon and/or his associates were interested in selling a good story so it’s not surprising that it was embellished somewhat. No doubt it could also be used as a story supporting the Abolitionist cause. I guess stories like this can’t be just dry narratives; they need to add a little something extra to make people sit up and read them!
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I know I am late answering this question, but I can't help but doubt any truthfullness in this story. I began Uncle Tom's cabin out of curousity. Already within the first pages there are far too many similarities that makes me want to discredit Solomon Northrup. For example Eliza in 12 years a slave was a mulatto who bore children by her master and was treated above the other slaves. Eliza in Uncle Tom's cabin has that same exact character. That's a bit bothersome. I'm beginning to think that writing a slave story right after another successful slave story would have only sold better had it been a true story, was their thoughts on the take.
kisha wrote: "For example Eliza in 12 years a slave was a mulatto who bore children by her master and was treated above the other slaves. Eliza in Uncle Tom's cabin has that same exact character. That's a bit bothersome. I'm beginning to think that writing a slave story right after another successful slave story would have only sold better had it been a true story, was their thoughts on the take..."That is very interesting kisha! When I looked at the notes concerning Eliza, all the details seem to be off. The people that Northup reported as having sold her were listed in the census as freed blacks. She and her children's complexions were listed as black also. I thought they were very detailed about coloring on those manifestos and usually listed mixed children as mulattos etc. I can understand that after 12 years many memories might have been fuzzy or maybe the manifesto or census wasn't 100% accurate, but it does make me read with more caution.
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kisha wrote: "But what really struck me is how a man very well spoken with what I'd assume would have a Yankee accent would never be questioned about his past. THAT is what I haven't bought throughout this whole story..." I never really thought about that kisha, but it is weird isn't it. Maybe he changed his pattern of speech to match his co-slaves.
Eakins edition makes a note of a unwritten Plantation Survival Code that landowners would have all followed at the time. This might explain some of why Northup wasn't harmed, but it doesn't explain it all. After he nearly choked Tibeats to death he didn't even receive a whipping?! Can't say I believe that at all. Even Solomon mentioned that everyone thought he would receive a whipping of some sort. He was only hired out to work (maybe Tibeats reasoned that an injured beated slave would not be able to make money for him) and then sold to Epps. Tibeats supposedly even wrote a pass for him to go visiting only a month after the ax incident.
***** SPOILERS BELOW *** Open Discussion of Chapters 12-18 Northup describes the daily life of a slave in great detail in chapters 12 - 14. When I was listening to these accounts of the meager sleep, daily beatings, and poor food, I was wondering how anyone could survive at all under those conditions. Here again, the Eakins edition (highly recommend!) shines light on the subject. It would not have been 'cost effective' to beat and starve slaves to death, so conditions were not AS horrific as Northup described them. Others on the same plantation also had written accounts which did NOT mention the daily beatings. To be sure, it was awful, but 'grain of salt' and all that....
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Northup describes the daily life of a slave in great detail in chapters 12 - 14. When I was listening to these accounts of the meager s..."
I was thinking of that as well. It is likely that some masters were more humane than others. Some used the rawhide while others didn't. I don't doubt that many slave owners were ruthles with the whip. But it seems Epps wasn't very wise about who he whipped. for instance I don't think a smart business man would be willing to beat and torture his most valuable slaves. The way he chose to torture Patsey just wasn't smart. If she, like Northrup describe, was as strong and worked as quickly as he said nearly tripling the workload of her peers would he really beat her wrecklessly? That would definitely depreciate her value (remember a whipped slave showed signs of rebellion) and not only that but she would be too weak to work the same. Epps may be ignorant but he wasn't dumb. No businessman is dumb. So I did have a hard time accepting that part of the story. But my goodness he could've killed her! So heartbreaking.
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Books mentioned in this topic
The Interesting Narrative of the Life of Olaudah Equiano (other topics)All Souls' Rising (other topics)
The Book of Night Women (other topics)
The Feast of All Saints (other topics)
The Known World (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Madison Smartt Bell (other topics)Edward P. Jones (other topics)
Harriet Beecher Stowe (other topics)
Solomon Northup (other topics)
Even though people would kidnap a free man it didn't happen all that often, so i can see how he would have that thought process. Most communities were small so you knew who was free and who wasn't. However, the brotha shouldn't have trusted people he didn't know.
I think that was my problem with the situation he was way too trusting of the unknown. I think free or slave, life was a bit too complicated to be so at ease with life. But then again it's so easy to get caught up in life as you know it that you don't think to fear your life when two perfectly kind gentlemen approach you. I can definitely see your point.
Andrew....Definitely he was arrogant and it was not unusual for free Black people in slave societies of the New World to act that way.
Very true!
I guess we should all keep in mind that slavery had many faces.
Perfectly said! There are so many debates on the subject by scholars, novelist, movie producers etc about whose depiction of slavery is correct. But what has to be accepted is that like you said, slavery had many faces. Once that is understood I think people will understand that is wasn't very cut and dry. That was a very important statement.