Memoirs of a Geisha
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Was I the only one who thought Sayuri and Memeha were Selfish?
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S.K.
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Oct 05, 2013 07:22AM
I don't think she was selfish at all. I thought she was a human trying to make the best out of a bad situation. In the end, her selfishness gets her to be someone's mistress-not really riding off into the sunset at all.
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S.K. wrote: "I don't think she was selfish at all. I thought she was a human trying to make the best out of a bad situation. In the end, her selfishness gets her to be someone's mistress-not really riding off i..."But that's just it. To Americans it would not be enough to be "just a Mistress" but to a Geisha it would be...
A lot of people make fun of how shallow her motivation is. I believe it was Cracked that said this was her decades-long journey to win the affections of a man who once bought her a snow cone.But consider what she had been through by that time. He was the first person in literally weeks to do anything nice for her.
As for Mameha, she's a viper. It was pointed out to me while I watched it that one house (Hatsumomo's) was about the money, and the other (Mameha's) about the art, which seems to be true...but that is like the only thing that stops Mameha from being as much of a snake as Hatsumomo.
Heather wrote: "A lot of people make fun of how shallow her motivation is. I believe it was Cracked that said this was her decades-long journey to win the affections of a man who once bought her a snow cone.But..."
True. But in those days, it was eat or be eaten for those women wasn't it?
Mameha was a Narcissist and Hatsumomo was a flat out Sociopath. Chiyo was selfish and the real victim in this all was Pumpkin.
Yes I felt awful for poor Pumpkin
S.K. wrote: "Yes I felt awful for poor Pumpkin" She basically turned into a mini Hatsumomo.
Yet she smiled more than anyone in the end there so maybe she ended up okay. I haven't read it in over a year-I can't remember if the epilogue mentioned how or where she ended up?
Its kill or be killed. Sure it may seem selfish but they had to make money to survive. If they did not make a profit they could be thrown into the street or be sent to a brothel. I loved pumpkin and felt terrible for her, but she wasn't tough. Hatsumomo was strong but cruel and that was her downfall. However, Hatsumomo's downfall was painful and hard to read and I felt bad for her as well. I think it all kind of goes to, "Its hard to be a women."
S.K. wrote: "Heather wrote: "A lot of people make fun of how shallow her motivation is. I believe it was Cracked that said this was her decades-long journey to win the affections of a man who once bought her a..."Sort of my point, that people who think the motivation is weak aren't considering what those girls had been through by that point. Chiyo is considered lucky, think about where her sister wound up.
And did their dad know that, or did he think they were both going to be geisha?
An act of kindness can change a life especially in a young girl's life who's just lost her parents and sister. I had a boy once 'save' me from a miserable few months with one tiny gesture and I had a crush on him for 5 years as a result.
S.K. wrote: "Yet she smiled more than anyone in the end there so maybe she ended up okay. I haven't read it in over a year-I can't remember if the epilogue mentioned how or where she ended up?"After she screws Sayuri over Pumpkins fate is left kind of a mystery. It is hinted that Hatsumomo did survive the war and lived out the rest of life as a Prostitute and eventually drank herself to death. And Pumpkin only acted happy and smiled in Sayuri's face to fool Sayuri into thinking she wasn't angry at her for what happened but in all honesty Pumpkin needed someone to blame as to what happened regarding the Okiya situation, so she probably ended up just as bitter and jaded as Hatsumomo...
It's been awhile since I read it. Could y'all elaborate about what happened with Pumpkin?
Heather wrote: "It's been awhile since I read it. Could y'all elaborate about what happened with Pumpkin?"Pumpkin failed as a Geisha and became a Prostitute during the war as a way to survive, and was also eventually forced to leave the Nitta Okiya. After the war, Sayuri returns to Gion and finds Pumpkin. She ended up in another Okiya in a more poorer part of the Gion Geisha district, she tried to return to the original Okiya were her and Chiyo grew up and pleaded for them to take her back, but mother and auntie told her flat out no due to the the fact that mother believed that Pumpkin was a poor investment. After that she pretends to be Sayuris friend but we learn that she only got close to her again to get back at her. After Pumpkin gets her 'revenge' her fate is left a mystery.
She was just this sweet plain little thing who was going to take over the okiya so Hats could control her but then Chiyo got made a Geisha and surpassed her in everything. In the end, Chiyo asks for Pumpkins help with the american soldiers, and Pumpkin is really westernised and wild by then. She backstabs chiyo.But I recall Chiyo begging that they both be given the Okiya. I just can't see her as a bad, selfish person. She always endeavoured to do the right thing.
She had it rough, too. I doubt anyone explained to her what was going on, either. Did she have a backstory?
Heather wrote: "She had it rough, too. I doubt anyone explained to her what was going on, either. Did she have a backstory?"No. Neither did Hatsumomo.
That may have been interesting to hear. Remember in the beginning, when Sayuri talks about people who think she's from a long line of geisha? Do y'all think Hatsumomo and Pumpkin were, or did the okiya buy castoffs instead?
Perhaps I'm am a complete and dye hard romantic. I came away from Memoirs of a Geisha wish a completely different view of these characters. Whereas I agree Hatsumomo was cruel, I do believe she was reacting to the circumstances of her childhood. Where she grew up in an environment of destroy the completion. Possibly Mameha was doing the same but in a more passive/aggressive manner, a more socially acceptable way for a woman of that culture and time. Mameha was no fool, she knew who was responsible for the destruction of her Kimono. This event tells the reader of a past history between the two Geishas. Sayuri, a smart young girl, probably had loved the Chairman since their meeting, even in her childish innocence, but was no fool either. Mameha would never have helped Chiyo had the Chairman not paid Mameha to. In all of it, yes, Pumpkin was much a victim and suffered from being pushed and pulled in numerous directions but at the end she pulled out the stops and in her way evened what she felt was the "score" by setting up Sayuri to be caught in the sack with the American Army Officer by the Chairman. As readers we are assured this was a true story and if that is the case then Sayuri found a happy ever after ending with the Chairman. The story read possibly truer to real human nature than most fiction stories. Of course, written from Sayuri's perspective we really don't know - for sure what exactly did happen to the character past what she narrated.
Here's another question for you all though. How did the men in this story conduct themselves. In that culture and you must add their culture beliefs into any evaluation, conduct themselves? The Chairman withheld his love for Sayuri for how many long years out of respect for his partner interest in her because the partner had saved his life and sponsored in him in business. Was he right to have done that OR was he wrong?
No. I think Pumpkin and Hatsumomo had the same background as Chiyo. Remember in the beginning when Chiyo first arrives at the Nitta Okiya? Pumpkin says: "I cried too when I first came" and I think Hatsumomo was ripped away fron her family also, that's probably why she was so Sociopathic.
Certainly Hatsumomo,Pumpkin,and Chiyo had that much in common; they were in some traumatic manner separated from their families, but can know what type of families Hatsumomo and Pumpkin had? The only family we, as readers were given a view of was that of Chiyo. We do know from the time they entered the Okiya their treatment was pretty much the same as was the discipline. Certainly, though they were beaten with a bamboo switch, the head of the Okiya didn't want to leave marks on their skin. But OUCH that must have hurt. Chiyo show tremendous strength in how she dealt with her circumstances. Some would have been broken from her experiences or become what Hatsumomo became.Fair or unfair, life is rarely fair in any life. Chiyo did the best she could with what she was dealt. By the same, the others did too. But I'll always wonder what life Hatsumomo went to when she disappeared into the fog after setting fire to house?
Sultry wrote: "Certainly Hatsumomo,Pumpkin,and Chiyo had that much in common; they were in some traumatic manner separated from their families, but can know what type of families Hatsumomo and Pumpkin had? The on..."Maybe someone should do fan fiction on i-the back stories of the forgotten Geisha
Sayuri had sex with an offensive man to hurt Nobu who was kind to her. That is to unforgivable and yet she still ends up with her dream, not redeemable to me in a story. If we look at it from an eat or be eaten perspective she would have been grateful to have Nobu as her savior not pine after a brief, childish encounter with the chairman.
Geisha used to be men.
I don't think Sayuri and Memeha were selfish, if one means by that they were deliberately taking from others without regard for them or their well-being. Memeha was a paid agent of the Chairman, but I believe that her attachment to Sayuri grew to a point where she cared about her in her own right. It was a real teacher-student relationship.Sayuri could be possibly interpreted as selfish in two ways: her treatment of Nobu and her victory over Pumpkin. With regards to Pumpkin, I really can't see my way clear to seeing an argument for selfishness on Sayuri's part. Her choice was succeed and inherit the okiya or fail and live at Hatsumomo's whim. People have a right to survive. Pumpkin is a tragic figure, certainly, but if Hatsumomo was to be foiled as a villain, Pumpkin's inheritance had to be thwarted. In a sense, Pumpkin was simply allotted a fate rather than a destiny by the author.
If one believes in what might be a very Japanese sense of duty, perhaps Sayuri should have selflessly given herself to Nobu, a man for whom she had no passion. That said, the novel would hardly have been a romance, had this been the outcome. Here, one must choose between having a shot at true love and duty. I guess I favor true love. Definitely sucks for Nobu, though. I can at least see the argument for selfishness, even if I'm not ultimately swayed by it.
It seems to me that this decision is critical to the whole theme of the book. The only people with free choices in the book are really the men. Sayuri's life, like the drop of water she describes at the end of the book, is by and large beyond her control. At one critical moment, she had one chance to obtain the goal of her passion. The price was Nobu's love. She had no guarantee of victory. Indeed, were this a real-life situation and not a novel, one could easily accept that Sayuri might have blown the only chance she ever had for a danna and a secure life. I believe we have to take this possibility into account when evaluating a charge of selfishness. Her risk says something about her love for the Chairman. This wasn't an act of greed.
While the loss of Nobu's love was a price she was willing to pay, she clearly lamented the loss of his friendship. That didn't seem fake to me. She cared for and about him, but he wasn't the love her life. That said, she did seem to genuinely lament the loss of Nobu's friendship. Moreover, she lost her career as a Geisha. This was a significant price for her as well. I see this as an act of passion, not an act of greed.
I guess that I see the moral of the book as that, basically, you live once and then die and possibilities are not limitless. Seize the opportunity to attain the object of your passion if it presents itself, for it may never present itself. To endorse the love of Nobu out of duty is to embrace a notion that those with limited opportunities should abdicate their passion, leaving this aspect of life to wealthy, powerful males as the ultimate luxury. While I am not such a fool as to believe that everyone can have their passion, I do believe that everyone should at least have their shot at it. So no, I can't see Sayuri's choice to sacrifice Nobu's love to have a shot at the love of her life as fundamentally selfish.
Sure sucks for Nobu, I agree. But these aren't the Memoirs of a Businessman.
I understand your point of veiw...but still. I don't even think the story was about the memoirs of Sayuri either. The story was also about Mameha's and Hatsumomo's rivalry! And how no thanks to the War, ended up destroying everything. Memaha was always very manipulative to me and calculating. And her and Sayuri plans that ended up pushing Hatsumomo to her breaking point was just as evil. Hatsumomo, she ends up becoming a Prostitute and drinks herself to death. Two wrongs don't make a right. I didn't feel sorry for Nobu because in the beginning the didn't even like Geisha. He played his own self really. I felt sorry for Hatsumomo...I just do even though she was evil, she just needed a Hug. I cried when she left the Okiya and was never seen again. I really did, call me stupid but I wanted her to realize her Wicked ways and change for the better in the ending....and she didn't :(
I don’t think that Sayuri and Mameha were selfish. Mameha was paid by the Chairman to help Chiyo become a successful geisha so that she will no longer have to serve the Okiya as maid and be independent (as independent as a geisha can be). As we see Mameha fulfils her duty.As for Hatsumomo suffering at the hands of Sayuri and Mameha we see plenty of evidence that Hatsumomo tries to make Chiyo’s life as miserable as possible when she is little (even though Chiyo has done nothing in particular to anger her) and later as she tries to become a geisha, so naturally there will be certain amount of animosity among them.
Also Hatsumomo is not thrown out of Okiya because Sayuri is chosen as heiress but because of the tantrum she throws later almost burning down the Okiya. So I guess she is as much responsible for her state as she is unable to accept her defeat.
True Pumpkin gets the worst of it but Sayuri doesn’t intentionally ruin her chance of being chosen as heiress, she is required to in order to save herself as Pumpkin was merely a puppet in Hatsumomo’s hand.
Sayuri dose begs to mother to choose both herself and Pumpkin as heiress to which mother refuses. I think Pumpkin was not cut for the geisha world as Hatsumomo or Mameha or even Sayuri were, where survival of one requires sacrifice of another and therefore suffers most.
Pumpkin has every right to be angry but her anger is misplaced as Sayuri had to do what she did or the other option would have been to be at mercy of Hatsumomo.
Tejashree wrote: "I don’t think that Sayuri and Mameha were selfish. Mameha was paid by the Chairman to help Chiyo become a successful geisha so that she will no longer have to serve the Okiya as maid and be indepen..."Hatsumomo doesn't burn down the Okiya in book. That was just in the movie...in the book, she is thrown out because Mameha and Sayuri follow Hatsumomo to a party were she is with her actor friend. Memeha purposely flirts with the actor and he hugs her, Hatsumomo loses her cool and snaps like a monster and attacks her actor friend and even bites him...she is then asked to leave the Okiya a few days later carrying her bag full of jewlery and wearing a plain old white cotton robe instead of a fancy Kimono and is never seen again. But there were rumors in Gion that she became a Prostitute in the Sex district, not too far from Gion. I think it was the same District that Chiyo found her older sister working in as a child. And one of Chiyo's male friends even searches for Hatsumomo to give her some "Bussiness" but she was no where to be found. Chiyo's best guess is that she probably drank herself to death after the war.
The book is quite different. Memeha knew EXACTLY what she was doing she even says to chiyo that Mother was trying to get rid of Hatsumomo for years. So Mameha, gave Hatsumomo a final push....and gave Mother what she wanted as well when it came to Hatsumomo, which was out of the picture but Pumpkin was the one who suffered as well for this. Not ONCE did Mameha ever take Pumpkin into consideration. She only saw the Chairman's request about Chiyo to get back at Hatsumomo for chasing her childhood friend who was also a Geisha that Hatsumomo was Jealous of, out of Gion. Chiyo was just in the middle of all of this and we only see things through her eyes...which are most of the time fixed on the Chairman.
Luxia, I can appreciate the love that motivates your wish to see Hatsumomo redeemed in some way. But I can't see how that ending could be written without making the novel utterly saccharin. In real life, only a fool would hesitate to destroy Hatsumomo. If she had a redeemable soul, the transformation would have been evidenced far earlier in the story. It's clear by every act she took in the novel that she could never be trusted. Personally, I relished her destruction. It's rare that the wicked are made to suffer so exquisitely. Poetic justice is what is so wonderful about novels.
True, there is no justice for Pumpkin. She had no realistic means to avoid an alliance with Hatsumomo. This contaminated her forever, ensuring that she would never attain her dream. Sad, but let's face it--she was mediocre in a field in which excellence is hardly conducive to making your dreams come true. Sayuri's dreams easily could have failed her. In the end, she was lucky, just as Pumpkin was unlucky. Life does not forgive the sin of being unlucky.
The ending you seek would diminish what is savage in the world of a geisha. Jealousy and rivalry are core parts of this world. Sometimes, fantasies like Little House on the Prarie or Anne of Green Gables can be satisfying. But part of the goal of the novel is to give you a real view of what it was like to be a geisha, not a fantasy. Whatever you want to say about Little House on the Prarie, it was most assuredly a pioneering fantasy.
Talal wrote: "Life does not forgive the sin of being unlucky."I really like this line here!
I don't think Sayuri or Memeha were selfish at all. Overall, the story and movie was great.
Very true. And sometimes, in life some of the most evil of peoples are the ones who have been hurt the most. I think Hatsumomo had a right to be all nasty and oh so angry at the world in a twisted way. She was a completely different type of person when she was around her Boyfriend Koichi. It was only obvious she did love him. So she wasn't all evil. Then she ended up losing him...that was probably very Tragic for her.All she had after losing Koichi was being a Geisha, and then Memeha came along and with the help of Sayuri...all of it was stolen from her as well as Pumpkin. That was selfish of Memeha and Sayuri.
Gong Li, the actress who played Hatsumomo in the movie even states that on the last day of shooting her role, which was when Hatsumomo is exiled from Gion, that she cried and felt lost like her character. So I suppose it's a love hate thing with Hatsumomo, you love her character because she makes the book so good...but hate her as well and root for her demise.
Luxia wrote: "I understand your point of veiw...but still. I don't even think the story was about the memoirs of Sayuri either. The story was also about Mameha's and Hatsumomo's rivalry! And how no thanks to the..."Hatsumomo had a choice. They all had a choice, and that's what people forget in lieu of a "poor *insert character here* her life is so miserable and tragic!"
True they couldn't choose the life they were thrown in, but the could've chosen to make the most of what little they could have. Hatsumomo chose to waste her opportunities and to be wilfull and ignorant of her circumstances. She chose to be mean, petty, vain and all around an evil person. She also played foul games and was known for having no real honour nor word. She chose that path and she paid the price. She first paid with with Koichi, and then which being thrown out of Gion. with Koichi she should've realized that she was going about things the wrong way, but alas she was too proud for even that...
Same with Pumpkin, she chose to be lazy, selfish, irresponsible, and childish, and to heed her "big sister" even though she knew Hatsumomo was very evil and bitter and she didn't have her best interests at heart. She hung on Momo's reputation to create her own instead of working hard with the little talent she had to create a reputation of her own. In the end she turned out just as bad or even worse than Momo, and I'm sure that had it been real life and not a novel she would've ripped what she sowed. She was just looking for someone to blame instead of looking in the mirror.
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