Christian Theological/Philosophical Book Club discussion
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Good question Caleb. You live in a great age. Books like we have now were somewhat difficult to find 25 years ago. Now we have a thousand to choose from.
The best thing I ever got was my E.S.V. Study Bible. (the red and white one.) This book has changed my life. It deals with every contradiction/date problem/theme and cross reference that apologetics are built on.
I also have a N.I.V. archaeology study bible and a few other translations.
But after that: Norman Geisler has written about 100 books on every possible apologetics issue.
I like C.S. Lewis but I find him lacking in certain areas (and I hate Poetry.)
Thanks Rod! I have an NIV study bible, but sometimes it's hard to follow. Plus, I've wanted to find something that helps me figure out some of Christianity's "contradictions." I'm definitely gonna look into an ESV study bible.
I'm not a big fan of the N.I.V. Bibles. They are fun. But somewhat safe and boring. Nice though! I have a bunch of them. The biggest challenge with apologetics and theology is: What area to specialize in. And you do have to choose.
I have been swamped in apologetics and theology for a decade now. I've learned that most people can't do it all - you'll be an eternal beginner.
I realized that my heart has always been excited by World Religions and cults...and how they compare to OUR Bible.
It's fun to learn everything: science, history, literature, archeology etc. but be prepared to really find an area that you can excel at. And for some people it's very simply evangelism.
It's amazing how many people attempt to do apologetics without theology. Just mind boggling.
It's great that you which path you want to take, otherwise, just like you said, we'll all be eternal beginners.I'm not sure what path God is leading me down, but I'm definitely excited to find out. I know for sure I've got the intelligence to do anything I want; Mom won't let me forget it haha
Never trust your Mother: She may lie to you - But she calls it LOVE. :DJust have fun until God smacks you over the head with something. It might take a decade though. (maybe i'm just slow.)
That's what I'm planning on; having as much fun (w/o sinning of course) as I can until the work begins. Then it's all up to God at that point, gotta trust in Him til the end
Caleb wrote: "Thanks Rod! I have an NIV study bible, but sometimes it's hard to follow. Plus, I've wanted to find something that helps me figure out some of Christianity's "contradictions." I'm definitely gonna ..."Uh-oh. the c-word. "Contradictions" are only a concern if you demean the authors of the Bible by pretending none of them had an understanding, opinion, agenda of their own. But if you want to pretend the Bible is everywhere consistent ... eg: none of the authors could think for himself ... then you'll be forever mired in an attempt to make up plausible explanations for the "contradictions." I put Rod in that category, lol.
Interesting point Lee. I don't want to demean the biblical authors at all, but I definitely want to make sure that I can give some sort of answer to that person that wants to pick through the Bible and point out every "problem area." Btw, what are some of your suggestions for books that I should look into. That's what this thread is about haha
It's hard for me to make book suggestions, because we have a hard time on this forum even defining apologetics and what we should be defending. I'm curious about the next book on our reading list, the one David recommended, as it seems like it might help us define the goal.In the mean time, a book we read earlier ("I don't have enough faith to be an atheist") is a good foundation, I felt, and I enjoyed it.
re: contradictions, I can point out a hundred of them for you, but see no need to consider them "problem areas." They are what they are, lol, why would we imagine that writers 2000-3000 years ago would agree on everything any more than writers today are able?
I'll concede that every book of the Bible isn't in agreement on the minor details, but the big stuff that really matters is all the same throughout the whole book. And the only way that works is maybe it really is God-inspired. Just a thought.
I did this on another thread, but I guess I'll do it here, too. And I'll add and modify a bit.Books that every Christian ought to read at some point, in no particular order. You asked about apologetics, so I'll put an asterisk by those that have value to apologetics specifically:
*Mere Christianity, CS Lewis
*Orthodoxy, GK Chesterton
The Practice of the Presence of God, Brother Lawrence
Experiencing God, Henry Blackaby
Knowing God, JI Packer
The Pursuit of Holiness, Jerry Bridges
*The God Who Is There, Francis Schaeffer
*Eternity In Their Hearts, Don Richardson
The Pursuit of God, AW Tozer
The Pilgrims Progress, John Bunyan
The Cost of Discipleship, Dietrich Bonhoeffer
*The Great Divorce, CS Lewis
Confessions, by Augustine of Hippo
The Imitation of Christ, Thomas a Kempis
My Utmost for His Highest, Oswald Chambers
With Christ in the School of Prayer, Andrew Murray
The Screwtape Letters, CS Lewis
I have read pieces of all of these, though there are some I have not finished.
Notes:
You can actually read most any of Schaeffer's books and get more or less the same education. In the last post, I recommended "The Church at the End of the 20th Century," which is a less well-known title, and "How Should We Then Live," which is actually a book full of plates to accompany a film strip and lecture. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
The Practice of the Presence of God, by Brother Lawrence, is written in 16th century French. It matters VERY much which translation you buy. Pick up the copy you're looking at and read several pages. If it sounds simple and a little repetitive, ok. If it sounds thick and complicated, put it down and find a better translation. The one I use is from Whitaker House; it's an abridgement, but the English is clear and simple.
Some people say "Peace Child" instead of "Eternity In Their Hearts" for Don Richardson. I don't agree; I think "Eternity" is necessary. And some people add "Beyond the Gates of Splendor" by Elizabeth Elliot. I won't argue with that. You can get "Splendor" as a documentary film. You can also get the dramatized film "The End of the Spear," which is outstanding and tells the same story. "Peace Child" is also a film. It's all good.
A lot of people recommend "The City of God" by Augustine, instead of "Confessions." I haven't read it, so I can't comment. Confessions is personal, The City of God is theological. "City" is also huge.
A number of these can be found for free download on the Internet, as they are in the public domain. Familiarize yourself with CCEL, the Christian Classics Ethereal Library: http://www.ccel.org/. It's a gold mine.
One final note about contradictions, as sort of an introduction to me: I'm a liberal Christian and pluralist, believing that many religious traditions can experience links to the divine, and none have all the answers. Contradictions in the Bible, though I may sound cavalier on the topic, are foundational to my beliefs and I will defend their existence rigorously. My personal Christian beliefs depend upon knocking away the facade that the Bible is everywhere consistent and perfect. Some consider my stance anti-Christian, I consider it taking the Bible seriously. Thus, identifying differing opinions in the Bible, and dropping the blinders from our eyes, is to me an extremely important part of outgrowing yesterday's Christianity.I don't mean to argue the points here, but as we get to know each other online, you'll see the c-word is an important topic to me.
Thanks, Lee. I guess you can tell that I'm the opposite of a pluralist (obviously by the John 14:6 ref.) I can completely understand now where you're coming from, but I expect that I'll always disagree with you on this point. Agree to disagree I guess :)
PS: I did not put "The Bible" on the list, but it goes without saying. DO NOT skip the Old Testament. The New Testament's authors were all Jews, and their theology was Old Testament theology. If you don't know the OT, you'll misinterpret the NT.
Good post Phil. Very cool.Caleb you will quickly learn that we are not a happy group of likeminded Christian scholars here. It's a fun and dangerous place.
Some people here appreciate the Bible - but really don't think it is God's Word.
I like Phil's list.I copied and pasted it, deleted ones I have not read or don't agree with (actually, I only deleted ones I have not read, I agreed with the rest...well maybe 1-2 I have read), anyway.
*Mere Christianity, CS Lewis
*Orthodoxy, GK Chesterton
The Practice of the Presence of God, Brother Lawrence
*The God Who Is There, Francis Schaeffer
The Pursuit of God, AW Tozer
The Pilgrims Progress, John Bunyan
The Cost of Discipleship, Dietrich Bonhoeffer
*The Great Divorce, CS Lewis
Confessions, by Augustine of Hippo
The Imitation of Christ, Thomas a Kempis
To add a few more that I would say are approachable for "beginners"
Apologetics - Randal Rauser's The Swedish Atheist, The Scuba Diver and Other Apologetics Rabbit Trails
Knowing Christ Today: Why We Can Trust Spiritual Knowledge - Dallas Willad
Bible/Theology
Simply Jesus by NT Wright (really, just read EVERYTHING by NT Wright that you can)
The King Jesus Gospel by Scot McKnight
The Deep Things of God: How the Trinity Changes Everything by Fred Sanders
Just for fun, and just to poke people on here, read Rachel Held Evans' Year of Biblical Womanhood and Rob Bell's Jesus Wants to Save Christians. Read some books by women and non-white people. Read good fiction, not just theology all the time.
I haven't read those additions, David, but I can't argue with NT Wright or Dallas Willard. Both are fabulous.
Yeah Rod, I'm starting to figure that out. I can be the one that stands out, I'll just have to see if I can hold my own with you or not ;)
PS: the congeniality is getting a little thick, no? Don't we need to throw a few hand grenades to spice up the discussion? Young Earth!
Down with inerrancy!
Go Calvin! Go Arminius!
Horus! Mithras! Quirinius! Bob Jones University! Women in pants with no hats!
There's nothing wrong with a little congeniality every now and then. But I agree, let's just go ahead and blow up my thread ;)
I know I haven't been on here in a long time (high school gets really busy) but I'm curious; anybody new have any good suggestions?
Welcome back Caleb.There are many books that have a general introduction to Apologetics. Even local libraries sometimes have a book or two.
You're still in high school...but what might your passion be? History, science, theology, evangelism, morals, atheism, religions, Bible?
Personally I look into all of them, but comparing everything to the Bible is my passion. Follow whatever God places in your head and heart.
Thanks Rod! Fortunately, since I'm graduating in a month I'll have more time on my hands to check out some new topics. Personally, my favorite seems to be theology, because I like to figure out what different sections of Christianity believe, and in turn figuring out what I believe
A noble passion Caleb. Theology is everything!Many people claim to love Jesus - and yet they don't know who he is.
Caleb - may I suggest ON THE ORIGIN OF THE SPECIES by Charles Darwin. When you get to college, all will claim to know everything about it but, curiously, few will have actually read it and even fewer understand it.
I've actually never thought of that Robert. Great suggestion
Erickson, Groothuis, Swinbourne, and Craig are excellent classical apologists. Plantiga and Van Till are even better presuppositional apologists. Maybe a good start for you would be "On Guard" by William Lane Craig. It's a very basic Christian apologetics book, albeit the substance is deep and rich: from what I remember it goes through ontological, teleological, cosmological, and moral arguments for God.
Those are alot of big words Brent. (important words too!)I hate academics for the sake of academics...endless eggheads battling for approval. It's definitely NOT for everyone. But we sure need some brilliant Christian scholars on our side. God bless anyone willing to do it.
I prefer the rebellious street-smarts approach. Take the war to the mean streets where people are dealing with real problems in a real nasty world. (although I have seen W.L. Craig do some awesome stuff in this area. But eventually it turns into over-educated university soup). But you get alot of respect and opportunities that way.
Caleb apologists need to be honest with who they are and what they can bring to the table. Use what you got...and slowly develop the rest.
I wish I was more like you 25 years ago. I wasted alot of time having way too much fun when I could have been really learning and glorifying God. (and i even went to Bible college.)
Caleb Hoyle