Nick & Gatsby The two aspects of Fitzgerald?

[Stephen]

In another thread Matthew posted that he felt both Nick and Gatsby were aspects of the author. Nick is how he sees himself (the honest man amongst liars and phonies) and Gatsby is how he thinks others see him (the rich pretender amongst wealthy people who he trying to fool)

I'd never heard it put quite like that before and it really resonated with me.

Would others agree?
If so, was having Gatsby die at the end telling?

[Florin]

There is a bit in A Movable Feast where Hemingway insinuates that Fitzgerald wanted to write but was prevented by Zelda who was, and it is ambiguous, either bored or jealous or both. The suggestion being that Fitzgerald's writing attempts are being thwarted by his wife by means of an outrageous social life.

If the extravagance of Gatsby if a literary reflection of the social life that Zelda imposed and Nick is the quiet boy who wanted to write but was too impressed by Gatsby's character, then that is a neat analysis.

I'm not sure I can believe that he did this consciously, however. He was not otherwise so subtle in criticizing himself or Zelda in fiction, see The Beautiful and Damned.

[Matthew]

Stephen wrote: "In another thread Matthew posted that he felt both Nick and Gatsby were aspects of the author. Nick is how he sees himself (the honest man amongst liars and phonies) and Gatsby is how he thinks ot..."

Wow. Thanks! I first said that to a high school class I was teaching back in 04 and its been with me ever since. In truth, I borrowed the idea from what a critic said about A Picture of Dorian Gray, where he basically claimed that this deeply personal work of Wilde's contained three versions of the author.

It wasn't hard to see the same thing at work in this book. The Great Gatsby is generally acknowledged as the work where Fitzgerald expressed his true feelings about the world he inhabited. And given all the parallels to his own life, and the way Nick and Gatsby were the only two honest men in the novel was a pretty big tell.

[Leslie]

Stephen wrote: "If so, was having Gatsby die at the end telling?
"

Not just die, but murdered in cold blood by an innocent and honest, wronged man, for the "sins" of his lost love and single driving hope, and her husband.

[Geoffrey]

And we could compare the novel to ULYSSES as well in that Joyce is represented by Stephen Daedelus and the ad salesman. Or Brothers Karamazov in which the three brothers represent Dostoyevski.

[Matthew]

Geoffrey wrote: "And we could compare the novel to ULYSSES as well in that Joyce is represented by Stephen Daedelus and the ad salesman. Or Brothers Karamazov in which the three brothers represent Dostoyevski."

I have not read Brothers yet, but as for Joyce's Ulysses, I absolutely agree. Daedalus was like Joyce making a cameo in this novel, and his appearance was intended as a sort of follow up to his role in the semi-autobiographical A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man was it not? And I'm pretty sure Joyce was poking fun at himself through that character.

[Matthew]

Leslie wrote: "Stephen wrote: "If so, was having Gatsby die at the end telling?
"

Not just die, but murdered in cold blood by an innocent and honest, wronged man, for the "sins" of his lost love and single drivi..."

Yeah, I forgot to comment on that part of things. Personally, I think that was just Fitz's way of making things more dramatic. Much like how Gatsby made it rich by bootlegging and bonds and other illegal means. Somehow it just made the story more poignant and effective having him come into his money by dubious means.

Another dramatic addition was the way he had Gatsby commit himself and every resource imaginable to winning Daisy back after she spurned him and married Tom. Fitzgerald never did that in real life with Ginerva King, whom Daisy is based on. He simply moved on and married Zelda, though this book clearly shows that he never quite got over the experience ;)

[Robyn]

Florian wrote: "There is a bit in A Movable Feast where Hemingway insinuates that Fitzgerald wanted to write but was prevented by Zelda who was, and it is ambiguous, either bored or jealous or both. The suggestion..."

Having just read the novel "Call Me Zelda" by Erika Robuck, I'd like to suggest that it was completely the other way round. According to this writer, Fitzgerald was jealous of Zelda's writing and other abilities (in ballet and art)and did everything he could to stop her from expressing herself creatively. This didn't stop him, however, from cribbing large chunks from her diaries and inserting them in his own novels.
AS for what Hemingway said, apparently he hated Zelda and was constantly criticising her.

[Treasure]

This is a stupid question. All characters are parts of the writer. The God/Goddess who created them is each character. That's the way writing works. Lita

[Stephen]

Treasure wrote: "This is a stupid question. "

There are no dumb questions. There has been some insightful and informative commentary in this thread so far. If you feel that it's dumb, then please feel free to not participate.

Good writers are constantly struggling with defining themselves and attempting to understand others. It what makes for good writing... and good reading.

Actually there ARE dumb questions... here are a few that the U.S. Park Rangers have accumulated over the years.

Regarding the Grand Canyon National Park...

Was this man-made?

Do you light it up at night?

I bought tickets for the elevator to the bottom -- where is it?

So where are the faces of the presidents?

Regarding Everglades National Park...

Are the alligators real?

Are the baby alligators for sale?

Where are all the rides?

What time does the two o'clock bus leave?

Regarding Denali National Park (Alaska)...

What time do you feed the bears?

Can you show me where the yeti lives?

How often do you mow the tundra?

How much does Mount McKinley weigh?

Regarding Mesa Verde National Park... (cliff dwelling of the ancestral Pueblo people who made it their home for over 700 years, from A.D. 600 to A.D. 1300.)

Did people build this, or did Indians?

Why did they build the ruins so close to the road?

What did they worship in the kivas -- their own made-up religion?

Do you know of any undiscovered ruins?

Why did the Indians decide to live in Colorado?

Regarding Carlsbad Caverns National Park... (More than 85 caves underlie the park)

How much of the cave is underground?

So what's in the unexplored part of the cave?

Does it ever rain in here?

How many Ping-Pong balls would it take to fill this up?

So what is this -- just a hole in the ground?

Regarding Yosemite National Park...

Where are the cages for the animals?

What time do you turn on Yosemite Falls?

Can I get my picture taken with the carving of President Clinton?

Regarding Yellowstone National Park...

Does Old Faithful erupt at night?

How do you turn it on?

When does the guy who turns it on get to sleep?

We had no trouble finding the park entrances, but where are the exits?

[Matthew]

Treasure wrote: "This is a stupid question. All characters are parts of the writer. The God/Goddess who created them is each character. That's the way writing works. Lita"

That's not true at all. Oftentimes writers base their characters on people they knew in life, which Fitzgerald did in spades in The Great Gatsby. On other occasions, they write them to suite a specific role in the story or help advance the plot. And while it is true that no writer is immune to hurling themselves into their writing, how and in what ways their characters resemble themselves is always open to interpretation.

If anything, it is bland generalizations like the ones you've made that are dumb.

[Karen]

Stephen wrote: "Treasure wrote: "This is a stupid question. "

There are no dumb questions. There has been some insightful and informative commentary in this thread so far. If you feel that it's dumb, then please ..."

Were these questions asked by adults? Reading this almost made me want to cry.

[Geoffrey]

The one that gets me, and I have heard it repeatedly in galleries and in writing, is when there is a showing, including a photo of a dead animal and a spectator invariably asks if the photographer killed it to take its picture.

[Leslie]

Geoffrey wrote: "The one that gets me, and I have heard it repeatedly in galleries and in writing, is when there is a showing, including a photo of a dead animal and a spectator invariably asks if the photographer ..."

Not related, but this reminds me of a time I was standing in a bus tunnel in downtown Seattle, and apparently Montana was running a tourism campaign because there were posters everywhere with various scenes of their state parks' natural beauty. One had a photo of bison grazing against the backdrop of plains and distant mountains, with the sun low and lighting up the scene in a warm glow. A group of older folks stood in front of it, and rather than comment on the beauty of the scene, they commented on how the flavor of buffalo is different (as in not as good) than beef...that struck me as a strange thing to say...

[Monty J]

Matthew wrote: "I think that was just Fitz's way of making things more dramatic."

It was also poetic justice, punishing Gatsby for his sinful life, much like Anna's gruesome death in Anna Karenina.