IC spoiler thread 5: Chapter 14 to end of Chapter 19: Hainting and Retread

[Magdelanye]

J. wrote: "For what it's worth, after having read through the relevant section, I think it is fair to say that Iron Council's success is somewhat far-fetched. It's all much too neat a communist utopia, isn't..."

But isn't that why it's so marvelous?
This is a fantasy,after all,and the utopian community formed by the Iron Council is, in my mind,an equivilent solution on land as Armada

[Traveller]

Ha ha, I'm with J. I hated the founders of Armada. How can a community that coerces and brainwashes its members into becoming thieves and murderers be good? Remember that if you didn't want to join Armada, you were tortured, killed or incarcerated.

[Magdelanye]

well there is that.\
but I am taken aback by your vehemence...guess I kind of glossed over your intense dislike of the Scar, which as you know I loved.Rather in the same way that I gloss over some of the violence and carnage that is woven throughout the writings of CV.
Remember,and I think this is in the background of all Mievilles work,our plenty is built on thievery and corruption,the murder and attempted genocide of the indiginous first nations and the rape of the land.

If you want to opt out of the system,you can face severe penalties:most systems are like that.They tend to want monopolize

Once you were sworn to Armada,then you were set up.
they had a creative flourishing counterculture.There were no homeless or jobless. I would sign up in a dirty minute.

[Saski]

I stand with Magdelanye on this.

[Traveller]

Magdelanye wrote: "If you want to opt out of the system,you can face severe penalties:most systems are like that.They tend to want monopolize."
True for many or most systems, except for a combination of capitalism and socialism, much like Sweden or even Britain.

Magdelanye wrote: "There were no homeless or jobless. I would sign up in a dirty minute. "

You honestly would not mind killing and pillaging? Phew, ok..

Magdelanye wrote: "but I am taken aback by your vehemence...guess I kind of glossed over your intense dislike of the Scar, which as you know I loved.Rather in the same way that I gloss over some of the violence and carnage that is woven throughout the writings of CV.
Remember,and I think this is in the background of all Mievilles work,our plenty is built on thievery and corruption,the murder and attempted genocide of the indiginous first nations and the rape of the land.."

I know, giving the okay to hurting and coercing people is what I hated the most about The Scar. I did love many or most of the characters though, which is what redeemed the novel for me.
CM was pretty okay for me in PSS, bc he didn't seem to condone Mr Motley. I'm not sure where he's going with that aspect in The Scar and in IC; why it is suddenly all right to hurt and force people. Okay, in The Scar they were forced and coerced--at least the IC doesn't do that, so I guess that is a plus for IC.

And its true what you say about Europe (or actually any conquering imperialist nation) trampling on the natives of the lands that they annexed. ...but that's part of the whole point that I was trying to make earlier on about CM actually seeming to just shrug his shoulders at what happened to the stiltspears. He didn't go into that much in depth, and Derek suggested that it was simply bc Judah didn't care too much about that.

..but I'd liked to have seen a character that actually cared about it. ..or what about showing a specific stiltspear in a more sympathetic light-- I don't know, I just felt that CM either lost an opportunity or showed rather a bit of a callous attitude in that regard.

[Traveller]

Ruth wrote: "I stand with Magdelanye on this."

Arggh, they're ganging up on me! ;)

You might want to correct me on lauding the Swedish system... :P I'm afraid I'm praising it from afar.

[Saski]

I don't think an author's job is to be moral that her/his readers, but to create a world which holds together logically and makes the reader feel that it could exist.

Sweden is doing pretty well now, but she doesn't have a pristine history any more than any other.

[Puddin Pointy-Toes]

Armada is a strange little state, and I don't find Iron Council to be particularly equivalent. As Traveller pointed out, citizens of Armada are prisoners, and are only allowed latitude (but never freedom) once they demonstrate sufficient loyalty. Iron Councillors, on the other hand, are all free, governed rather than ruled, and the Council operated as a peaceful rather than belligerent state when dealing with foreign parties.

Were I free to choose I might also choose Armada and turn a blind eye to the piracy, murder, rape and torture involved in securing the resources I would use to survive, but most people who end up on Armada don't have a choice, do they?

I'm not saying Iron Council isn't wonderful in many ways---a communist utopia has never seemed a bad sort of place to me---just that it's unlikely given the circumstances.

I'll grant that adversity (which they seemed to have a lot of) can really bring people together. Given the makeup of the community at the outset I'm skeptical, is all.

[Traveller]

J. wrote: "Armada is a strange little state, and I don't find Iron Council to be particularly equivalent. As Traveller pointed out, citizens of Armada are prisoners, and are only allowed latitude (but never f..."
I agree with you re Armada vs IC, but I do disagree on the viability of The IC as a communist community. I can't see why communism shouldn't work out fine if it is small and above all, voluntary. After all, many tribal systems are communist and they work just fine.

What I was having a problem with regarding IC, was how people who were essentially sociopaths could suddenly become altruistic enough overnight to make such a system work without any of them bullying the rest of the community. I suppose I can to some extent go with Derek's suggestion that there were enough people who had been falsely accused (I remember you had also suggested this) and that there would have been some kind of internal justice system--even though CM doesn't mention this, but nevermind.

Ruth wrote: "I don't think an author's job is to be moral that her/his readers, but to create a world which holds together logically and makes the reader feel that it could exist.
"
All texts are mediated though, and there is always rhetoric present, whether by inclusion or omission. :)

[Traveller]

..but be that as it may, I agree with Ruth in that it can be painful when an author takes an obvious stance on morality.

In with that, Mags, I'd also like to point out that just because I have a problem with Armada as a system, that I don't reject The Scar as a novel, and certainly not because I don't like Armada.

Although Tanner embraced Armada--that is understandable from his POV, Bellis rejected it, which is entirely understandable from her POV too ((view spoiler)[ especially after being beaten up by them the way she was... (hide spoiler)]; so I think CM presents a reasonably balanced view there.

[Derek, Miéville fan-boi]

Traveller wrote: "Ruth wrote: "I stand with Magdelanye on this."

Arggh, they're ganging up on me! ;)

You might want to correct me on lauding the Swedish system... :P I'm afraid I'm praising it from afar."

I'm here! I'm a socialist, but I can't really believe Iron Council. As J says, communist utopias are great in principle...

And I quite strongly disliked Armada. I read all those reviews about how wonderful it was as a city, and just couldn't help thinking I couldn't stand to live there.

[Puddin Pointy-Toes]

Traveller wrote: "What I was having a problem with regarding IC, was how people who were essentially sociopaths could suddenly become altruistic enough overnight to make such a system work without any of them bullying the rest of the community."

And that's exactly why I think it's unlikely, doubts about the actual level of criminality aside. I'm not sure how we disagree.

Communist communities are perfectly viable, as far as I know, especially of the apparent size and longevity of Iron Council. It's Iron Council as a specific case I'm skeptical of.

[Traveller]

Okay, it's me, J and Derek against Ruth and Magdelanye! Where's the ball! >:D
And which side is Jeanette taking, I wonder?

Ah, the pressure! :)

[Traveller]

J. wrote: "Ah, indeed you're right:
—And you Remade. Weather Wrightby smiles a sad smile. —I don’t know, he says. —I don’t know. You are indentured men. I don’t make laws. You have debts to the factories that..."

Jeanette (jema) wrote: "J. wrote: "I'd missed that, too. Do you remember whereabout it's stated, Jeanette?


I think it was somewhere in Anamnesis - about when they rebelled and took over the train,or just before when th..."

Ah, now I remember. I suppose I was reading in a hurry and didn't give it enough thought at the time. Thanks Jeanette (and J. for looking it up.)

[Magdelanye]

Traveller wrote: "Okay, it's me, J and Derek against Ruth and Magdelanye! Where's the ball! >:D
And which side is Jeanette taking, I wonder?

Ah, the pressure! :)"

Ah the urge to pair up and compete
The new awareness that is sweeping the world is that life is not a contest. Thats why anarchism appeals, and why I love these anarchic kinds of communities.

There was a lot of random brutality in the beginning of the IC,more than just the damage inflicted by the militia. And how are they planning to make it sustainable?

[Traveller]

Just kidding, Mags, just kidding. Was hoping you'd see the light-heartedness in that post. x x x

Seriously, though, perhaps I'm just more cynical about human nature than you are. ...but it's nice to meet people who are so positive about human nature--a refreshing change from the ideology that we are born tainted and flawed 'sinners', and that our sins are the cause of all the sorrow in the world.

I'm a humanist, sure, but once again, it seems that I'm somewhere in the middle of the road. ;)

[Magdelanye]

sorry for overreacting...and that my reply yesterday got lost in the shuffle and does not seem to appear here.

There is a new conciousness evolving, and some people anyway are dismissing the vampire world to cultivate lovingkindness. Ironically,the more educated have a harder time grasper the new paradigm.

[Allen]

Feeling terrible for being so late to these wonderful discussions ... Did want to weigh in though on this Ori chapter. I didn't overwhelmingly enjoy the plot in these (though realize now that there was a point to it) but I did enjoy the evolution of Ori's character. And a little saddened by it. Just hated how he goes from ideal or what he thought must be the good revolutionary work he's always dreamed of - even tries, but not so hard, to feel disdain for those who don't "do" enough - to the reality that a good idea is often spoiled when people and societies, communities even, get hold of them. I really felt sorry for him, and it hope it was these chapters, when he realizes the old man and woman killed were for the sole purpose of the greater good, not because they were bad. His self doubt was almost painful to read.

In a way, I thought what a contrast between the communal perpetual train society and those who are trapped in the urban sprawl. So many things change just because of the difference in perspective.

I'm reminded of a line from, of all things, and please don't judge me, the Men in Black movie where there' say line about why they don't people that aliens are living on earth. Will Smith's character says, they're smart. And Tommy Lee Jones's character says, "A person is smart, but people are dumb panicky animals."

My pop culture reference for the day :)

[Traveller]

I've just read Deathless for our next Mievillians discussion, which spurred me to read more about Soviet history and I see soooo much of Soviet history in IC, actually!

All those wonderful ideals end up rather different in the light of realistic day, once the rose-tinted glasses come off. Marxist as CM is, I think even he must realize that and ... well, I'd actually like to discuss that in the very last thread, where we have a nice overview over the whole of IC.

Something which I could perhaps mention here, is how I suddenly realized how much the war with Tesh resembles Russia's war with Germany (or actually the other way around, heh heh) in WW1. The Russian revolutionaries used the Russian people's discontent re the war to their own advantage much as the NC dissidents used their people's disillusionment with the Tesh war to their own advantage.

Actually thread 6 deals more with this and the bit that you mentioned Allen, but that thread turned into a bit of a tirade by yours truly; I apologize for how, er, involved I became in that ... :P

[Derek, Miéville fan-boi]

?? What's to apologize for? I wouldn't be terribly interested in the discussion if nobody could get wound up about it.

[Allen]

Agreed. Let's get wound up :) You know, it's interesting you say rose colored glasses, Traveler. Today I was relaying some of the more salient plot points to the wife and she said, he doesn't paint a very rosy picture of life. And I said yes, very few rainbows in New Crobuzon, and the pot of gold is pretty much nonexistent. It's funny, but I'm consistently picturing the city in darkness in this novel. I'm sure some of it takes place in daylight but I've just mentally set everything at night. In contrast, I remember distinctly many daylight scenes played out in my head reading PSS. Darker and grittier tone I guess.

Oh, and I may have drifted into thread six. I'm much farther along and should finish this weekend. Trav, you'll have to remind me what bit when it's time to bring it up.

Meanwhile, you've inspired me to research a little WWI history, at least on an international scale. My world history education is somewhat lacking, as is my knowledge of world politics. I was more a science and creative writing nut...

[Traveller]

Ha, since I've been reading about it, I'm quite happy to babble about WW1 and how it came about. I'm reading 2 books on Soviet history; the one doesn't give much background but the other one drags you through this miasma of European tensions and shifting power blocs.

It's always been easier for me to understand how WW2 started, and I've always found it easy to blame the Germans for WW2.

..and while it was also the Germans who ostensibly started WW1, things there seem much more nuanced and not quite so black-and-white, because the whole of Europe was involved in imperialist activities and power-play where complex blocks of power and allegiances developed.

And whereas the seafaring countries like Britain, France, Spain and Portugal made their colonies far and wide, and so could indulge in imperialist activities without pissing off the rest of Europe, Germany and Russia engaged in much of their imperialist activities closer to home, and the Balkans and countries like Finland, Austria and Poland became a bit of the ball-prize in a tug-of war between what seems to me to be mainly Germany and Russia.