Question about 'the'

[Andy]

Morning all.

I'm having drawing a grammatical blank on a certain rule. Should 'the' be capitalised when referring to a proper noun, the noun itself having the definite article as part of its title. For example, in the book I'm currently writing, there is an organisation called 'The Provenance'. When I am referring to said group in a sentence should it be:

'What are the Provenance playing at?'

or

'What are The Provenance playing at?'

I've been using the former, but am beginning to wonder if I'm correct. Any advice that will put me out of my misery would be most welcome!

[Francis]

The latter seems more appropriate ...

[Laurel]

Andy wrote: "Morning all.

I'm having drawing a grammatical blank on a certain rule. Should 'the' be capitalised when referring to a proper noun, the noun itself having the definite article as part of its title..."

my gut instinct is that you should not capitalize the "t"

However, your sentence should be "Where are the Provenance playing?" or "At what location are the Provenance playing?" what you have above is not itself grammatical.

[Laurel]

Francis wrote: "The latter seems more appropriate ..."

In titles, the "t" of the is always lower case unless it is the first word in a sentence.

So "The Lord of the Rings"

"The Peers of Beinan"

William, the Duke of Cambridge

[Andy]

Laurel wrote: "However, your sentence should be "Where are the Provenance playing?" or "At what location are the Provenance playing?" what you have above is not itself grammatical. ..."

Thanks for your advice. I think you're taking the line of dialogue too literally. It might be a colloquialism but it was meant to ask something along the lines of "what are the Provenance trying to achieve from their actions?"

[Lynda]

Andy wrote: "Laurel wrote: "However, your sentence should be "Where are the Provenance playing?" or "At what location are the Provenance playing?" what you have above is not itself grammatical. ..."


I was thinking the same thing. "What are the Provenance playing at?" is sort of the same thing as saying, "What the heck are they doing?"

Lessons learned from Harry Potter. ;) Otherwise, I'm only versed in US English.

[Andy]

Ahh! I didn't realise that this phrase was of a purely British flavour. Cheers for the heads up! (is that a US term also, or am I really muddying the waters?)

[Lynda]

I'll take a "Cheers!" any day, muddy waters or not.

[Bryan]

Andy, from my experience, if the organization is called "The Provenance," wherein the 'The' is a part of their name (as in, as one person noted, "The Lord of the Rings") then it should always be capitalized. If it's not part of the organizations full title, then it would be lower cased, except, obviously, at the beginning of a sentence. But, if you are speaking of individual members, or a group of members within the organization, then it should also be lower cased.

i.e.
"I went to The Provenance to eat lunch."
"I talked to the Provenance yesterday."

You can take this with as many grains of salt as you'd like! : )

[Jenelle]

Andy wrote: "Ahh! I didn't realise that this phrase was of a purely British flavour. Cheers for the heads up! (is that a US term also, or am I really muddying the waters?)"

It's less common in the USA, but I don't think it's all that obscure... You should be able to get away with it.

I agree with Brian... But mostly, since it is your book and your organisation.. My number one piece of advice is...... CONSISTENCY!

[R.A.]

I agree with Bryan and Janelle.

[Andy]

Excellent advice everyone. Thank you so much. As Bryan rightly said, consistency is of the essence.

[Bryan]

Andy wrote: "Excellent advice everyone. Thank you so much. As Bryan rightly said, consistency is of the essence."

Well, Jenelle said consistency was key, but glad I could be of help.

[Darlene]

Bryan wrote: "Andy, from my experience, if the organization is called "The Provenance," wherein the 'The' is a part of their name (as in, as one person noted, "The Lord of the Rings") then it should always be ca..."


This is correct.