Anyone else troubled by Ophelia's fate?

[Stephen]

Of all the characters in Hamlet, the one that's always given me the most agita is Ophelia.

Hamlet, Gertrude, Claudius and Polonius all somewhat deserved their fates but Ophelia was pretty much guiltless.

I was taught in school that the classical Greek standard for a tragedy involves the main character's downfall through some shortcoming and I can't help but apply that standard to most things that I see.

And yet, I can't satisfactorily pinpoint Ophelia's failing. What do others think? Does she bear some responsibility for her fate?

[Tashann]

I'm not sure that you could say Ophelia deserved her fate so much as chose her fate. I always got the impression that in the beginning Ophelia was more of a cypher who let others, especially her father, form all her opinions for and never had an original idea. But after her father's death unhinged her, I think that in her madness she saw the situation about Hamlet and Claudius clearly for the first time. She simply could not deal with that reality and consequently took her own life.

[Becky]

Alas, Ophelia, I knew her well. Sorry, wrong Act and Scene. I think there is merit in saying Ophelia was complacent and gave the men in her life way too much power. Her madness and then subsequent complacency when falling into the lake follows her behavior, but also makes her a character that one can feel sympathy for.

[Stephen]

I just recently started thinking about this again and came to this discussion board to post this question and found that I already had.

The number of responses has been pretty small. Does anyone else feel that Ophelia's death should have been more clearly motivated?

This has been billed as the perfect play but I've always had trouble with Ophelia's fate.

[L.E.]

I do love Hamlet. I think what the others have said here about her willingness to follow the guidance of her father and other men is a good point. I have always seen her as quite young. The way she is so easily managed by the men in her life seems to highlight this. She does exactly what Hamlet, Laertes, and Polonius ask her to do. When there is a conflict between these men she obeys the ties of parenthood and slavishly obeys her father.

She did what every man asked her to do, and so when she becamed unmoored from all three influences toward the end of the play she drifted into insanity. She has lost those who controlled her and, having never had control of herself, couldn't cope.

Ophelia's death is pointless and horrible, and yet it really does have a point. It proves how destructive Hamlet's choices are, even to the innocent. Often that happens. Bad choices don't just affect bad people. The tragedy of evil isn't that it hurts the bad, but that it harms the good. I love the way Shakespeare highlights this in Hamlet!

I always felt like Polonius didn't fully deserve what happened to him either. He was a prying fool with an overinflated opinion of himself, but everything he did seemed to be motivated by a desire to help and do what was right.

[Sheela]

Stephen wrote: "Does anyone ...else feel that Ophelia's death should have been more clearly motivated?"

Yes. I've always had the same question, although I love the play. Granted, if your boyfriend killed your father, it would be horrible, but most people wouldn't suddenly become psychotic. There's nothing in her earlier speeches or behavior to indicate that Ophelia could be tipped over the edge by one event.

Rather, her insanity seems to be a plot device to further highlight Hamlet's ambivalence: Laertes had a single-minded dedication to revenge (unlike Hamlet, who had to work himself up to it), and Ophelia genuinely went crazy (unlike Hamlet, who was pretending). There's a lot of mirroring.

I also think that "Hamlet" doesn't follow the Greek model for tragedy. Hamlet is so witty that until Polonius is killed, the play feels like a comedy. Hamlet's fatal flaw, if he has one, is a determination to get to the truth. Oedipus, by contrast, tried hard to AVOID the truth.

[Jacquelyn]

I think that was the point, though. Ophelia was the only one completely and 100% victimized in this. She lost her boyfriend, her father, her brother, everyone! But I think it was a part of the point that no act of vengeance only affects one, even two people. An act of vengeance affects everyone and often times creates many victims.

[Sheela]

Jacquelyn wrote: "Ophelia...lost her boyfriend, her father, her brother, everyone! But I think it was a part of the point...An act of vengeance affects everyone and often times creates many victims. "

Amen to that!! (Although Ophelia's brother, Laertes, did survive her -- remember the wacko jumping-into-the-grave scene?)

[Jacquelyn]

Sheela wrote: "Jacquelyn wrote: "Ophelia...lost her boyfriend, her father, her brother, everyone! But I think it was a part of the point...An act of vengeance affects everyone and often times creates many victims..."

Sure but did he maintain is old state of mind? No. It was altered just like her, and others throughout the play for that matter--many people went crazy, and so he is a victim in this too, thank you for reminding me! He makes some of the conflict, but only because he believed it was right.

[Sheela]

Agreed. That whole family was destroyed, and they were just bystanders.

[Kevin]

I see this play, and most of Shakespeare's work, as trying to convey one clear message--women need to be strong. In this play you have weak women, unable to reign in the passions of men. As a result, tragedy follows. In the comedies, strong women prevail, and things tend to work out. Perhaps this is an overly simplistic view, but it does seem like a pattern.

[Sheela]

Interesting. Never thought of that, and it does seem to be true. Except, maybe, for the ending of The Taming of the Shrew???

[Kevin]

Actually, I had trouble with the ending of The Taming of the Shrew at first, too. However, I read some criticism on it and it said that Katherine was actually competing against Bianca and the other women in the play (I forget their names) and that that is why she seemed so..."submissive." She was trying to shine brighter than they were. In other words, she wasn't being totally sincere. She was, in a sense, beating them at their own game.

I wasn't totally satisfied with that explanation, but it was one of Shakespeare's early plays. Perhaps he was still working out his philosophy.

[Adriano]

Stephen wrote: "Of all the characters in Hamlet, the one that's always given me the most agita is Ophelia.

Hamlet, Gertrude, Claudius and Polonius all somewhat deserved their fates but Ophelia was pretty much gui..."

There is a big misconception about the character of Ophelia: she has been described as 'weak' and 'light', yet, that is not at all the way I (and others) would see her. In fact, Ophelia is a real heroine. Hamlet is an extremely complicated play; if one wishes to read it as a 'story', one would do it a huge disservice... Ophelia may commit suicide, this is what most people seem to think, yet, the suggestion that she might have been killed by Gertrude has been raised by many critics. The line, 'Get thee to a nunnery,' has brought about speculations (especially as Hamlet questions her virtue a few lines before) that she might have been pregnant. She dies off stage, and her death is narrated by Gertrude in tbe famous lines 'There is a willow grows askant/aslant [according to whether you allow the Bad Quarto's version] a brook..' Allowing her to die off stage in a tragedy where most characters die on stage may look like a sign of respect, however it makes her death more mysterious, especially as we do not know how far Gertrude's narration is reliable, and, in particular, how Gertrude came to know of her death. She apoears to be an eye-witness to Ophelia's death, in which case, Ophelia would have died in the presence of either an unchaperoned Queen, or a Queen that offers no help... There is not even the slightest hint that anyone offered to help her, and the Bard chooses the word 'brook'... It is quite hard to drown in a brook as it is... How is it possible that with a Queen and guards around no one bothered to get their feet wet and rescue her?

Of course, Ophelia might have committed suicide, and the Queen might be adding romantic touches of her own to the account of her death. Should that be the case, I believe Ophelia must have realised that she was an impediment to Physis, the big metaphysical moving force the play is about: 'Time is out of joint,' is repeated twice, just by the bedchamber scenes. Ophelia knew that she was an impediment to the resolution of the tragedy; she knew her own existence was preventing Fate from taking her course. Thus, by killing herself, she does what Hamlet should have done from the start: work in the direction of time and Fate and not against it, even at the price of one's life. She precedes Hamlet and maybe even shows him the way. If this is the case, Ophelia is presented as even more intelligent and perceptive than Hamlet himself.

[Stephen]

Just wanted to say...

Glad I asked the question This is one of the few discussion threads that is actually generating some interesting ideas about the actual plot of the book in question!.

And it's helping me think of Ophelia in some ways that I hadn't before.

[Patricia]

The comments made on Ophelia's behalf are profound. I think during that era, women were supposed to be weak, were supposed to be dominated over by the males in their lives. Ophelia (I'm not sure about any of what I'm saying, it's been a long time since I read Hamlet) lost everyone who gave her an anchor in her life. I don't believe she was allowed to create her own direction or support. And, I believe she was weaker than many of the women of her time. So she drowned. Of sorrow, of lack of support, of loss of family, relationships and her own mind. And, she was so young. As was Juliette.

It's Shakespearian tragedy at its best.

And, you're right. The comedies seem to have stronger female characters. Much to do about nothing comes to mind. The weak female who commits "suicide" did nothing of the sort. She, along with (oh, I can't remember the female lead's name) create a mock funeral and really get those so-called heroes. I loved that play.

[Adriano]

Patricia wrote: "The comments made on Ophelia's behalf are profound. I think during that era, women were supposed to be weak, were supposed to be dominated over by the males in their lives. Ophelia (I'm not sure ab..."

It certainly is true that women had a limited role in Elizabethan society, however, they did have some important roles: the Monarch to start with. Tudor England was not as repressive as people might think on a series of issues: homosexuality was, for example, accepted, flirting was the norm, upper class women played vital roles in influencing politics.... There are some female characters in Shakespeare that one may wish to consider 'strong' even by today's standards, Lady Macbeth first and foremost.

I also think we need to consider the role of the theatre: plays were seen as reflections and commentaries on current affairs, so much so that we use references to the 'news' of the time to date the Bard's plays. The Master of the Revels would have censored anything that could be seen as 'provocative' in plays as their revolutionary potential was clear to everybody... An extremely determined woman would easily be identified with the Virgin Queen, which is a move Shakespeare was to clever to make, as anything he wrote that could be seen as representing the Queen could easily be turned against him. Let us imagine Ophelia had any of the characteristics of Elizabeth I, her strength, her impressive oratory skills, her independence, her fighting spirit; should anyone have made the link, then, Ophelia's death would become Shakespeare's death, as even contemplating the death of the Monarch, in whatever form, was tantamount to high treason.

It is significant how things must have changed, at least in terms of Shakespeare's 'cheek' in the Jacobean period, as the similarities between Macbeth and James were quite evident, and yet the Scottish play was performed in front of the Scottish King who apparently loved it!

[Sheela]

Adriano wrote: "Ophelia may commit suicide, this is what most people seem to think, yet, the suggestion that she might have been killed by Gertrude has been raised by many critics....If this is the case, Ophelia is presented as even more intelligent and perceptive than Hamlet himself."

It's actually never seemed to me that Ophelia did commit suicide, in the sense of intending to destroy herself. I've always seen her death as the accidental outcome of her madness. But it's interesting that people would hold Gertrude responsible for her death. What would Gertrude's motive be?

Also, I'm wondering, Adriano, is it your belief that Ophelia was only simulating madness (like Hamlet)?

[Adriano]

Sheela wrote: "Adriano wrote: "Ophelia may commit suicide, this is what most people seem to think, yet, the suggestion that she might have been killed by Gertrude has been raised by many critics....If this is the..."

It's a theory put forward by quite a few critics. Gertrude is the last character to see Ophelia, and, should she be pregnant with Hamlet's child, she would be an embarrassment, not so much because royals didn't have illegitimate children with mistresses, that was one of the 'perks of the job', but because of her position at court. Nowhere in the play it is said that they were engaged (an important point).

I also strongly doubt Ophelia was mad. In the scene where she offers plants and flowers, where allegedly she appears as mad, she certainly is distressed, yet reading the language of plants, she actually makes sense: what she is doing is pointing out the bad traits in each character. That scene shows that she understands others much more deeply than people assume, that she has seen what they are really like (another threat to Gertrude if she is an accomplice in the murder of King John, yes, Hamlet's father's name has been speculated to be John, like Shakespeare's father...oddly enough, the Bard played the Ghost in the first performance of the play, which I believe is the most autobiographical of all his play, no need to point out how Hamlet is a direct reference to Shakespeare's dead son...)

I agree, it is never stated that she committed suicide, yet that was a common view, mainly a consequence of the interpretation of Ophelia's character as 'weak'. The Queen presents it as an accident... It still remains a little believable story. Millais depicts Ophelia dying in what a brook is like, pointing out the great contradiction in the account... Just look at the painting... There are more ways in which she could have saved herself than one can think (simply standing up is the most obvious one, grabbing a branch, or stepping onto the riverbank which is so close to her...) yet she is not in a 'drowning position' her face is above the water, and she must be dead already, even if she is covered in flowers, as dead women float up (men face down). Isn't Millais suggesting that she was killed then thrown into the shallow water?

[Gary]

I've always found Ophelia to be one of the more troubling characters in Hamlet. Her only sin is in trying to deceive Hamlet when she is set up to confront him about his feelings for her by her father, Claudius and Gertrude. In doing so, she lies to Hamlet, but in her ignorance she doesn't know that she isn't just concealing her agenda in that moment, but siding with the murderer of the dead king. Hamlet appears to figure out that there are spies observing the conversation, and his response is directed at her, but also at his mother, his uncle and Polonius. She becomes the focus of the conspiracy to assassinate Hamlet's father in that moment, and steal Hamlet's throne.

However, Ophelia doesn't realize she's playing a deadly game. She thinks she's trying to draw out her boyfriend regarding their relationship. She's been prompted to do it, and she knows there's an audience, but she has no idea that she's caught up in deadly palace intrigue.

Interestingly, I've always had trouble with Ophelia's madness. From the text alone, I don't think it's entirely justified. Her brother leaves town, her father is a jerk to her, her boyfriend breaks up with her, and then her father is murdered. Those are bad, but does it drive her to insanity? In stagings of the play that I've seen Ophelia always has to be portrayed as very fragile or there has to be some sort of extra-textual explanation of her madness. I've seen it implied that she was molested by Polonius or her brother, for example. In another staging Hamlet actually draws a dagger on her during their confrontation, and the scene later with "his head in her lap" it is strongly indicated that she's afraid he might kill her at any moment. In a third, when her madness sets in she comes out with her dress stained with blood over her groin. A miscarriage? Those are all interesting interpretations, but they don't exist in the text itself.

The Millais painting (as Adriano points out) has its own interpretation. I would only add that she is more than a little Christ-like in that pose. Was he indicating that she is a sacrifice? Is her death simultaneously a baptism? Personally, I don't think she's meant to be dead at the moment Millais portrays her. To me Ophelia in that painting appears to be at the moment just before she submerges. Either she's unaware of her danger, or she's surrendered to death... so, still a bit ambiguous as to whether she's insane or not.

[Adriano]

Gary wrote: "I've always found Ophelia to be one of the more troubling characters in Hamlet. Her only sin is in trying to deceive Hamlet when she is set up to confront him about his feelings for her by her fat..."

The water in the painting is part of the theme of the 'shattered glass': a recurrent symbol in female characters (just think about 'The Lady of Shallott'), it is seen as signifying women reaching for freedom and identity beyond their physical image, often through sacrifice and death. The way Millais portrays Ophelia is not as a woman looking into the glass, but as her own reflection looking out. Thus, she has reached over to the other side. The souls of the dead were believed to dwell in rivers in Medieval England, and Hamlet is a play about the transition from the Middle Ages to the Renaissance: Ophelia lies in the river as she remains in the Middle Ages; Gertrude and Claudius are the new generation, ironically: they are Renaissance people (they poison Hamlet's father...). Ophelia must have sacrificed herself already to be looking out of the water, out of the mirror and not into it.

I forgot to say that the language if plants was common knowledge in Shakespeare's times; anyone at the Globe would have understood what Ophelia was saying...

[Avita]

Definitely, she didn't deserve it all and it seemed a bit rushed and uncalled for. I feel like her death made her seem even weaker of a character than she already was. Does that make sense?

[Adriano]

I forgot to point out how her death, described as an accident, is denied as such by the very incipit of Gertrude's account, 'There is a willow ...' Has anyone ever seen where willows throw their branches? They grow down to touch the water. Willow branches are also extremely strong, flexible, but they won't break...

[Patricia]

Gary, that was an interesting analysis. I am going to have to do more research on the middle ages.
Waterlilies Over My Grave

[Kirk]

I found her whiny, and wasn't sorry to see her go.

[Sheela]

Really? Whiny? To me, she seemed very obedient and accepting of whatever came her way. My vote for whiniest Shakespeare character goes to Don John in Much Ado About Nothing. And my pick for Shakespeare character I would most like to see die prematurely (and preferably in the most horrible way possible) is Bertram in All's Well that Ends Well; the little rat prospers, unfortunately.

[Stephen]

Adriano wrote: "...The souls of the dead were believed to dwell in rivers in Medieval England..."

And not so medieval England too! Look at the descriptions of the dead marshes in J.R.R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings

[Patricia]

OH my. I remember those dead marshes in LOR. And, I agree about Don John in Much Ado. He WAS whiney. The more I read about these characters from Shakespeare, the more I want to go back and read them again. They are timeless. Characters you see on the streets everyday.



Patricia A. Guthrie, author
www.patriciaanneguthrie.com
Waterlilies Over My Grave

[Stephen]

Speaking of whiney, What about Ham;let himself?

I agree with the guys who sing the opening theme to Slings & Arrows

Cheer up, Hamlet
Chin up, Hamlet
Buck up, you melancholy Dane
So your uncle is at hand
Murdered Dad and married Mum
That’s really no excuse to be as glum as you’ve become

So wise up, Hamlet
Rise up, Hamlet
Buck up and sing the new refrain
Your incessant monologizing fills the castle with ennui
Your antic disposition is embarrassing to see
And by the way, you sulky brat, the answer is “TO BE”!
You’re driving poor Ophelia insane

So shut up, you rogue and peasant
Grow up, it’s most unpleasant
Cheer up, you melancholy Dane

If you haven't heard of Slings & Arrows and you like Shakespeare you really should check it out. The series is about the theatre folk at the fictional New Burbage Shakespeare Festival. Based on Canada's Stratford festival, the series is great. The first season is all about them doing Hamlet. In the second they're doing Macbeth, and in the third, King Lear.

Oh, and there's a ghost!

[Patricia]

Sounds like fun.

pg

[Paul]

Of course the fate of Ophelia was heartbreaking, but she is an important character because of it. The rest of the principles, including her father and brother, were involved in a game of politics. Her story is one of simple love and betrayal. They destroyed her with their games. That is the whole point of her character. Politics and madness have a price and the victims are usually guiltless people on the sidelines. The Bard didn't miss a trick, the waters sucked her down, like everybody else around her.

[Stephen]

Everyone kept mentioning the willow and plant meanings in relation to Ophelia but no one really mentioned exactly what meaning willows had in that period. I did know that willow-bark contains some of the same chemical compounds as aspirin and has been used for centuries in a tea for mild pain relief.

I did a little further research and apparently...

Willows are water loving, and water is an archetypal symbol of the feminine energies of birth, creativity, intuition and the moon.

[Sheela]

Stephen wrote: "If you haven't heard of Slings & Arrows and you like Shakespeare you really should check it out."

Thanks very much, Stephen! I've put this in my Netflix queue.

[Patricia]

Paul, GREAT analogy. "The waters sucked her down, like everybody else around her." No, he didn't miss a trick. Neither did you.

[Susie]

Paul wrote: "Of course the fate of Ophelia was heartbreaking, but she is an important character because of it. The rest of the principles, including her father and brother, were involved in a game of politics. ..."Yes, I have always viewed Ophelia as collateral damage to the political games everybody else in the play are engaged in. Poor little soul.

[Sheela]

Just want to give a plug for Slings & Arrows (thanks again, Stephen). My teenage son and I watched the first season together and found it hilarious and touching. We're moving on to Season 2. In Seasion 1, there are some really insightful bits about the characters in "Hamlet," including Ophelia, who is portrayed as a child, riven by guilt and confusion and loneliness.

[Strawberry]

Ophelia sings a song about a maiden who lost her virginity before she commits suicide. Do you think that could've been a reference to herself?
If she were pregnant, I think it's even possible that the pregnancy from Hamlet and the taboo of the age could have very easily caused her to think suicide was plausible.
However, it could've been because they weren't married, or because she finally had realized Hamlet couldn't be stopped, or both.
Just a thought to ponder...

[Gerd]

I try to see how Lady Macbeth is a strong female character, and fail to.
She drives her husband to murder and then goes insane over her guilt, strange sort of strength there.

I think people overthink Ophelia's role and descend into madness, if anything we learn from Lady Macbeth going insane it's that this is just one of the things female characters did (probably where expected to do) in plays.

I don't think that Ophelia's insanity and subsequent death amount to more than a trope.
She's a fallen character, she gave herself to Hamlet and thus lost her standing. When Hamlet kills her father insanity and death are the only options left to her as a character in those times.

[[deleted user]]

Sheela wrote: "Really? Whiny? To me, she seemed very obedient and accepting of whatever came her way. My vote for whiniest Shakespeare character goes to Don John in Much Ado About Nothing. And my pick for Shakesp..." I've read Much Ado About nothing and I agree, Don John is definitely the whiniest Shakespeare character.

[Christine]

Taymay wrote: "Ophelia sings a song about a maiden who lost her virginity before she commits suicide. Do you think that could've been a reference to herself? If she were pregnant, I think it's even possible that..."

I think so. I think Shakespeare actually makes a feminist statement with Ophelia and the double standard of the day. She was not just some little thing who went off and killed herself, but rather Shakespeare gave her ample lines to explain herself, both in allegory and in the symbolism of the flowers. I do not see Ophelia as so much 'insane' as just fed up, deeply saddened, at the end of her rope due to the society's standards.