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The Executioner's Song
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Executioner's Song with Reading Schedule-discussion starts Oct 20th
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Jennifer
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rated it 3 stars
Oct 22, 2013 06:22PM
I don't have empathy for Gary, but I do work in the corrections field so know that when someone goes in young it is really hard to change their lives around. He is really a dangerous person. Nicole's life is a mess as well, but stemming from a lot of abuse. As Sheila said she is really young and already has married and divorced more than once.
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So we are saying that we have some feelings for Nicole because we know her story and not for Gary because we don't know his story? What would significant things in his story that would make you feel something for him?
Does anyone have any preference about our reading going into Dec and January? I know it gets busy so do we want to up the schedule or keep as is?
Mod
It looks like Meg had the end of Dec. set as a "catch up" time for reading, since the schedule is listed now as:
December 22 Discuss through 996 Finish book
January 5 Discuss end of book
I am flexible and don't mind anything. If people get behind the schedule can easily be extended further into January.
I agree with you Sheila. This book is easy to read, I think I am going to find it hard to put down and patiently wait!
I really like the book and so far I'm ahead of schedule!
Mod
I think I have feelings for Nicole because underneath she seems like a decemt person. She may not be the best mom in the world, but she does seem to love her kids (she tries to protect them from Gary in one scene in the car). She tries, she seems to care about her friends, about people.
Gary, on the other hand, only seems to care about Gary. He steals all the time and sees nothing wrong with it. He thinks he should just grab women and rape them. He seems to think everything is just his for the taking. He doesn't seem to really care about anyone else's feelings. He is a taker, a user. That is why I don't like him.
So Sheila, if you knew his story do you think you would feel at all differently about Gary?
Mod
Mod
I think in this case, no matter how bad his childhood was I wouldn't feel compassion for Gilmore. Do you wonder how he justified to himself the things that he did?
That is a great question Meg. I was thinking about genetics I think that people can manifest things but I think certain for some that drugs and alcohol are not beneficial for genetic predispositions and may enhance certain things and hinder other things. I am also wondering how his questionable manhood abilities may have affected him? He didnt seem to be able to satisfy Nicole sexually.
My ex husband never told me he had mumps as a child. We we thought about having children there seemed to be problems. We had him tested and he was given a 0% chance of conceiving. I know I felt very angry for a long time at him and his mother for not telling me because it might have led me to make a different decision in our relationship. I guess
I am trying to say that I think this type of thing might make a man question himself. I think there must be something chemical or mental that is exciting for a man that he can arouse a women. I hope I am not being to crude here.
Do you think that he is trying to prove himself/manhood by killing? Do you think that he thinks his control over other people's lives is directly related to his view of himself as a man?
Mod
How is it possible for Brenda to feel guilty for turning Gary in after she knew he committed the two murders? I just don't get it.
Mod
I wonder too that if she did have some kind of idolization of him and I wonder if she just plain felt bad that he had committed the murders.
I'm sure guilt is a huge part of it. He is really manipulative and can make people feel bad and question themselves pretty easily. How far is everyone? I'm way ahead so don't want to say too much yet!
I can understand more that Nicole is addicted to him. I get that some women get that way with men, but Brenda is family. I guess we might learn more about her since she was the one that sponsored him to get him out of jail originally. Some kink in her armor!
Mod
Meg, I think that is even more why she is the way she is with Gary is because Brenda is family. I do not justify Gary actions.But I now for me personally it makes me feel bad at times to watch a brother of mine make some interesting choices and sometimes hard ones. Its hard to see our love ones hurt and go through things.
Sheila I got that too, his mother implied the Gary was Houdini's illegitimate son. That is hard to believe!
SNOPESI saw this in a rag called The Weekly World News:
Legendary Escape artist and magician Harry Houdini
was Gary Gilmore's Great-grandfather.
This legend is false. Look in the book, The Life and Many Deaths of Harry Houdini. It says that he played with his brother Leopold's X-ray machine so much that it made him sterile. So you see, he couldn't have been anybody's father, much less anybody's great-grandfather. The article went on to say that after Houdini's death (a-ha!), one of his female assistants came forward and said that she had an affair with him that resulted in a child. Some people may believe this legend because of the slight resemblance Gilmore has to Houdini. That means nothing. Otherwise, Clint Black would be related to Roy Rogers and Tracy Byrd would be related to Gene Autry. The only thing that is true is that Alan Autry ("Bubba" from In the Heat of the Night) IS related to GENE Autry; they are distant cousins.
Mod
"The theme of illegitimacy, real or imagined, was common in the Gilmore family. Fay Gilmore, Frank's mother, once told Bessie that Frank's father was a famous magician who passed through Sacramento, where she was living. Bessie researched this at the library and came to the conclusion that Frank was the illegitimate son of Harry Houdini. Houdini was only sixteen years old in 1890, the year of Frank Gilmore's birth, and did not begin his career as a magician until the following year. Mikal Gilmore believes the story to be false, but has stated that his father and mother believed it."
I feel like its kind of depressing right now. Hearing about how Bessie has to find out is so sad. What do you think about the letters Gary is writing? Do you understand the love Nicole has for Gary?
Nicole is addicted to Gary. Gary is totally controlling and there is something in Nicole's personality that needs this type of relationship. His letters to her is part of his seduction, manipulation and control. She has fallen for it completely. It will be interesting to see how long this will last and whether or not it is her final demise.
Very well said Meg!
Mod
Getting a late start - today finally.
Can you imagine if Gary was your son, or brother or cousin? How do you think you could deal with it?
I am more than half way through with the book and can barely put it down. Mailer's journalistic style at first put me off but now that I am in the rhythm I am glad for the details. It seemed like he had interviewed Gilmore but at this time I think perhaps he interviewed all the people in and around Gilmore's life - and read the letters. I do have empathy for Gary - but not much.
Why do you have empathy for Gary? What was the turning point for you? Why do you think the author waited so long to give you more information on Gary's childhood?
I can see his human side and his capacity to love. Although he was a danger to society. No question he needed to be locked up. I am not moved by his childhood story. He was a punk. I've heard worse stories that didn't lead to being a sociopath.
I think the depiction of lifer's and the lack of rehabilitation is key here. As the lawyer/writer uses the analogy of socialism/capitalism... I'm in that section now and I see his point.
Sadly Gilmore barely stood a chance especially after the drug therapy fiasco. But he was a sociopath and whiny at that. Not too much empathy from me.
I think Mailer does humanize him though.
I think Mailer does a really good job in his development of Gary. I am still wondering why I am about 500 pages into the book and just learning about his family and himself in childhood. I am wondering if I would have felt more sympathetic if I read that first.Which brings me to a big question, do you think people who are being tried for murder would fare better if the jury read about their childhood and how they turned to a life a crime? Do you think it would be better, or important, if they did?
Mod
I do think that I would want to hear the complete picture that made up the person sitting accused. What motivates them - it is key to the crime. I do not think his childhood story should excuse him. But it might shed light on whether he could be rehabilitated.In his case I don't think so. He was so self absorbed - moody. Things didn't go his way and he acted out. The cold blooded nature of the killings spoke of a man with no conscience, only concerned with himself. So much is made of how intelligent he was as if there was something there worth saving. I am not so sure he really had anything much to offer.
Mod
Then there is the whole death penalty question itself...which is where we are going in this story.
I agree that their childhood should not excuse their crimes. It does in some cases explain the person and their actions. That usually interests me - like In Cold Blood. Also unspeakable and inexcusable - Capote did a good job of fleshing out the two men. I think Mailer is also giving us a recognizable picture of both Gilmore and Nicole.
Gilmore himself says he wants to take responsibility for the crime. But I am not convinced that he really had any remorse for his actions. He was a sociopath
Well I think if you are looking at rehabilitation the background information can be important. Most you are feeling more remorse for Nicole than Gary due to her upbringing. I almost feel that Mailer didn't give us Gilmore's childhood experience in until way into the book because he doesn't want us to feel any empathy towards him.
So many people that end up in the criminal justice system have terrible childhoods/trauma issues. It does not excuse their behaviors, but explains a lot how they got where they are. I have met both fairly decent individuals, and very dangerous/psychopathic individuals who have committed murder. I believe that Gary falls in the psychopathic category.
I had a to read a lot to catch up. I finally did last night. I think they were trying to make him look like somewhat of a decent person by the fact that he wanted to die and accept his punishment. I question his ability to take responsibility and think he was merely letting his fate dictate his actions. I think it was interesting that he says he can't remember killing the men, he was looking through water, and it was being played out like in a movie. I wonder if this is what other psychopaths describe the experience like.We have had several high profile cases here. I remember the media surround the Hi-Fi killings. Here is an article link. Also the Ron Lafferty case is making headlines again. Thought you might be interested.
Hi Fi http://www.deseretnews.com/article/50...
Ron Lafferty http://www.deseretnews.com/article/86...
Very interesting articles, thank you.
Mod
I can't believe that she is entering the suicide pact. He is so seductive in his letters.
I think that the relationship between Gary and Nicole is the most interesting thing about the book. I read a newspaper article about Nicole this morning (I finished the book last night and had not allowed myself to look anything up on the internet until I was finished reading Mailer's account). Not that it gives anything away because it just repeats what Mailer says in the book about their relationship being that of soul mates. But it is sad to read her words after all this time, she has not gotten over it. Too bad he was a sociopath and so self absorbed.
Having finished Do you think this book is more about Nicole and Gary than Gary?
I think it is about Gary & Nicole and not about Nicole. More is written about Gary and the intent I think was to tell Gary's story but the real story was about his relationship with Nicole.I found the writing very dry - a narrative, which wasn't particularly compelling. Despite the style what came through was their story. Without adding that bit of life to his story he is just a sociopath and not very likeable. But their story added some depth to his life.
Are you saying that you found Mailer's writing dry?
Yes. It was without heart in a manner of speaking. Of course it was a true story but I think the manner of just regurgitating facts is very dry. The story of the relationship came through - added some depth. But it was a narrative and read as a laundry list of the days between Gilmore's getting out of jail and ending up back in jail. Compare it to Crime and Punishment where Capote developed the characters - narrated the crime but infused it with some element of suspense.
I am not saying I didn't like it. I did. But it was dry and long without building up into the climax of the end. He could have done more with it. We all already know the end - just like we did with In Cold Blood.
It was a good read though all in all.
I finished it last night and rated it a 3. I wanted to like it so much more than I did. I agree with Julie that it was dry and I got lost with all the details of the people (attorneys/journalists). I'm glad I read it though!
