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What Do You Think Of Goodread's New Review Guidelines???
If you are writing a review it should be fair, honest and respectful. It shouldn't make any difference if you've paid full price, had a special offer or if it was gratis.If authors read reviews they have to be prepared for criticism within the bounds of my above perameters, or praise in the same vein.
If they can't take the reviews on board then they shouldn't read them, they should just look at their sales record.
T4bsF wrote: "If you are writing a review it should be fair, honest and respectful. It shouldn't make any difference if you've paid full price, had a special offer or if it was gratis.If authors read reviews t..."
Well said, T4bsF!
Some of the best books I have read in the last few years have been Indies. The trad industry has become repetitive and boring the industry needs fresh ideas and blood.It was only question of time until Amazon started making changes on this site. It will become more author and product focused and we will probably see a buy button soon.
I do believe the way GR has handled this was wrong and not very business savvy. Deleting reviews and info without giving members a chance to actually adhere to the rules is a bad choice.
Changing the heart of GR, which has always been booklovers and readercentric first will destroy the magic. GR will just become a bigger prettier version of Amazon just for books.
As for the negativity, if GR had dealt with certain issues straight away instead of ignoring it all then things might never have gotten out of hand.
eta: typo
Agree with you entirely DD. I haven't actually seen any nastiness on GR; maybe I haven't explored enough. I see this mainly as a readers' site, and feel lucky as an author to be allowed on here and gain a little exposure. Like you say, without readers, there'd be no point to us publishing.
I've got two things to say:The debate about what is and isn't acceptable on a site like this could run for months and years and never get resolved. Some people are too quick to offend, whilst others are too quick to take offence. Human nature is a biatch.
The other thing I want to point out is how small this world is. Cheryl, you are the very same Cheryl M-M who kindly reviewed my collection of three short stories on Amazon in March 2012 - Shades of Grey - after I emailed you out of the blue.
Welcome to the group!
Cheryl M-M wrote: "Some of the best books I have read in the last few years have been Indies. The trad industry has become repetitive and boring the industry needs fresh ideas and blood.It was only question of ti..."
I confess that you highlight a big worry for me: that if Goodreads becomes a site for authors, readers will migrate somewhere new. There is very little purpose to belonging to a forum that is not frequented by readers looking to hear about new books!!!
David wrote: "Agree with you entirely DD. I haven't actually seen any nastiness on GR; maybe I haven't explored enough. I see this mainly as a readers' site, and feel lucky as an author to be allowed on here and..."I belong to quite a few groups on goodreads, and I've seen some pretty unpleasant bust ups.
I mostly stick to this group now, it's nice and safe here!!!
I been quite lucky to have a few readers who have promoted my books to other groups, which seems the best way, and it allows me to stay here.
David wrote: "I been quite lucky to have a few readers who have promoted my books to other groups, which seems the best way, and it allows me to stay here."I agree completely.
There are soooo MANY authors out there, all of them telling anyone who'll listen (and forcing plenty who would rather not hear!!!), that their book is a masterpiece! It's unsurprising that nobody is listening to self promo any more!
Readers recommendation is most certainly the way to go.
The bit that worries me as a reviewer who certainly doesn't really 'review' books professionally in any way is that sometimes my reviews ramble about stuff that isn't related to the book.maybe i talk bout my life and how this book worked into it or maybe i go off into a tangent about a subject in the book. the point is, not all my book reviews stay on topic so does that mean i have to worry about them being randomly deleted?
does it also mean that writers i get negative feedback too as actual writers (not the books) have a right to flag my review if i say their writing is shit because its considered an author attack?
the guidelines are so blurry that they make me uneasy.
i also don't like how they don't inform you off deletion. surely a simply auto-email could go out to everyone if someone hits delete on a review.
on the whole though i think the whole idea of authors needing protection is mostly bull. too many softies. I agree with you DD. you put your baby out there, you need to realise not everyone is going to love it.
David, I'm afraid you just haven't been around enough.If you read the comments section on the thread DD referenced, it is very illuminating. There are GR membehrs who do believe that they should be able to abuse authors in any way they see fit. As readees, they believe that to be their inalienable right. And authors whose behaviour is preposterous.
The two sides are carrying out a vicious war. You don't see it because this group is being brilliantly moderated by Simon and Patti. Elsewhere it isn't the case.
I hope that this will just cool the situation off, and make GR the site it was supposed to be
I think the kind of review you talk about is refreshing Elle. I also agree that you should be able to make any comment you like about the writing and it not be seen as an attack on the author. Potential readers are savvy enough to consider all the reviews and form their own opinion.
Elle wrote: "The bit that worries me as a reviewer who certainly doesn't really 'review' books professionally in any way is that sometimes my reviews ramble about stuff that isn't related to the book.maybe i ..."
A lot of people have a big problem with the deletion without warning. I can see why people are worried, I think that the trouble is that there are some reviews out there that are completely unacceptable, and authors who behave unacceptably. The trouble is that now one wants to pay people money to read the thousands of reviews/comments on here and get rid of the OTT ones!
I still think the answer is to ignore the nastiness: it's quite difficult to have a raging argument (or any other kind of argument) when no one will talk to you!
Michael wrote: "I've got two things to say:The debate about what is and isn't acceptable on a site like this could run for months and years and never get resolved. Some people are too quick to offend, whilst ot..."
Hi Michael,
I am actually one of the originals in the group, who migrated from Amazon
Kindle Forum, back when there was only a few of us. Simon and Patti have made this group a great alternative and superb place for both readers and authors.
I see you have sent a mail....gonna go answer it.
I think the big issue is the deletion with no warning, there's no chance to change your shelves or reviews to meet the new guidelines. I agree you shouldn't bully or be hateful towards authors but I hope GR use some common sense in their removal of the offending reviews. I've got two reviews (both non fiction books about the author's life or work) which both mention that the author comes across as being arrogant. I'm not saying that they are arrogant in real life (although I'm pretty sure at least one of them is) but they could be construed as commenting on author behaviour, even if they aren't.I've also had an author comment twice, the first time in April, on one of my 'reviews' (all it says is that I've shelved the book) telling me the book is cheap on Amazon at the moment. The author obviously hasn't bothered to look at where it was shelved as the book is on my 'i-own-on-kindle' shelf. Funnily enough, that's dropped down my to read list, possibly to the bottom...
I think we should review the book not the author. Whether the reviewer got a copy free or not is largely irrelevant to me, most reviews in magazines are done of copies sent free and gratis by the publisher.As to deleting the reviews I wonder if this was on legal advice. Some (anonymous) reviews that I have seen were probably actionable, and the action would have been taken against Goodreads.
Jim wrote: "I think we should review the book not the author. Whether the reviewer got a copy free or not is largely irrelevant to me, most reviews in magazines are done of copies sent free and gratis by the p..."Personally if the author had been unpleasant to me, I just wouldn't review the book!
Cheryl M-M wrote: "Hi Michael,I am actually one of the originals in the group, who migrated from Amazon
Kindle Forum, back when there was only a few of us. Simon and Patti have made this group a great alternative and superb place for both readers and authors.
I see you have sent a mail....gonna go answer it."
*Head explodes*
Really? Weird how I haven't ever noticed you on here then!
And now I don't know whether to reply on here or in the email.
*Head explodes again*
I've just copied all the reviews my books have received into a word document. I don't want to risk losing a single one of them. From 3* to 5* they all inspire me to continue writing.
It's reassuring that the new author guidelines should cut down on the idiots behaviour too.Elle, the new guidelines specifically say that commenting on the author is entirely acceptable in autobiographies
Of course, the whole thing is only needed because there are authors and reviewers who love to indulge themselves with abusive behaviour.
You can export your book list including reviews. If anyone has anything they may think might fall within GR's new rules, then it's a good idea to do that now and regularly.
Will wrote: "It's reassuring that the new author guidelines should cut down on the idiots behaviour too.Elle, the new guidelines specifically say that commenting on the author is entirely acceptable in autobi..."
Oh I know that. I just think sometimes if you know an author it's hard not to comment on them.
For example. Cassandra Clare is a plagiarist and if I were to ever write a review on a book I had read by her I'm not sure I would be able to hold my tongue about it.
Also when a writer just can't write (IMO) and I talk about their personal skills of writing - is that an attack on an author?
I need more solid lines on how far they are taking this.
(conversations like these always remind me of the TED talk in which the guy talks about art versus the artist which completely toppled my world view)
D.D. wrote: "Jim wrote: "I think we should review the book not the author. Whether the reviewer got a copy free or not is largely irrelevant to me, most reviews in magazines are done of copies sent free and gra..."Or don't buy another of theirs, simple really.
As long as the new guidelines are are enforced with a bit of common sense,which I got the impression from the piece that they would be, they seem fair enough to me.
A big point to remember is, a lot of community websites are cracking down on cyber bullying, which I can understand. I feel it's related to this but I just hope it doesn't go too far. If I ran Goodreads though, I'd want to err on the side of caution.
Erm.It's after midnight here and I've not read through this thread properly. I will do tomorrow. But I will take exception to Will's comment about Simon and I moderating the group.
We really don't.
We may redirect, we made guide, we always love to advise.
We have an amazing group. We don't require moderation.
We really don't need any more rules than than we one we all follow.
This is truly the best place on the inter web.
Elle wrote: "Will wrote: "It's reassuring that the new author guidelines should cut down on the idiots behaviour too.Elle, the new guidelines specifically say that commenting on the author is entirely accepta..."
I wouldn't worry Elle, until you actually get something deleted and then, that's the time to kick up a stink. If an author is truly a crook or can't write, then it's fair to say so. By doing so you're doing the community of readers a service.
Patti, I guess it depends on how you define moderating but you and Simon are definitely active and quick with making sure people obey the rules/guidelines in here.
Michael wrote: "Patti, I guess it depends on how you define moderating but you and Simon are definitely active and quick with making sure people obey the rules/guidelines in here."Just to second that.
Michael wrote: "Patti, I guess it depends on how you define moderating but you and Simon are definitely active and quick with making sure people obey the rules/guidelines in here."And a good thing it is, too!
Michael wrote: "Patti, I guess it depends on how you define moderating but you and Simon are definitely active and quick with making sure people obey the rules/guidelines in here."Suppose.
Dead easy though as we've only got one rule and about three guidelines.
:D
Yeah, but Peppermint P: the rule is 'be nice'...That pretty much covers everything!
But this group is stuffed full of nice people, so its not that hard...
It is surely possible to write a negative review without being abusive and I don't believe a book's quality should be judged by our view of the author. After all Dylan Thomas didn't exactly behave that well! Plagiarism should I think be exposed but maybe the press is a better place for that or by the author who has been plagiarised bringing a case. Not possible of course if the author is dead! The self publishing phenomenon has opened the doors to a deluge of drivel without a doubt but surely this actually makes it more important that readers respond to good or excellent books by posting reviews of those. If a book is not worth reading why post a review at all?
I'm happy to read that they will take action against reviewers who use reviews to comment on author behaviour. It's never happened to me but I once saw a hate campaign where a whole group started giving an author's books poor ratings just because she was upset by an unnecessarily tactless review.Granted, the author did herself no favours by getting defensive about the initial review, but it's not always easy to remain silent in the face of hurtful remarks.
Nobody likes to get poor reviews, but for those of us that get so few they are useful things that tell us where we may have gone wrong. The important thing is that they are honest. If they are honest then I don't care about the rest. Saying that something is derivative or a copy of something else is perfectly acceptable (ERAGON you are just STAR WARS with dragons). All of this can be done without being nasty.As for you Elle, relating the book to your own life only gives the audience more of an understanding for your reaction and adds value. Any review is personal, or should be.
I do believe that blanket advice against authors engaging with reviewers is a shame. It would be nice to think that writers and readers could discuss even this in an open and respectful manner. Unfortunately, they are quite right in that the author will never come out of it looking good.
I don't believe that any of this will involve this group because people are not abusive and don't hate. Except books. When they hate a book they say so and that is how it should be. They also say when they love a book and that is also how it should be.
I've been following this with interest as I review just about everything I read - well, everything I finish! I think people being abusive - even if it is 'only' labelling their shelves abusively - is showing a very poor standard of behaviour in public forums. There are authors whose work I will not read, either because of views they express or promote, or because I think their work is buttock-clenchingly piss-poor but I wouldn't put their books on shelf thus labelled. It's all a matter of manners. Free speech should never descend into rudeness.
Absolutely. One of the things I am really loving about goodreads is the (unexpected) opportunity to engage with some authors who are starting out. A couple of people who are now goodreads friends have invited me to read their books. I take that request very seriously, and welcome some conversation around it. As a reader with very wide tastes but little knowledge of editing I am not sure how valuable my comments may be but I think authors should be encouraged and supported not vilified.
Darren, the wonderful thing about this site is hat it does ennable us authors to engage freely with readers. But that's best done, as here, on author threads or general threads. It is best kept off readers reviews on books. And Kath is entirely right: it is the freedom to descend into pettiness and rudeness that has been abused, and good manners forgotten.
I don't mind bad reviews, as long as they're constructive. You'll never please everybody, so don't waste your time trying. There is only good behaviour on this site when alcohol is absent! :)
Did you mean that the other way round?
Absinthe makes the heart grow fonder.
i admit to having a shelf named 'avoid' and i do put books on there that i dont even give a chance before deciding ill hate them. i only do that though because people i trust have told i wouldnt like it or else ive read something in a review that i dont read at all (threesome/infidelity). the shelf saves me from looking into the book again and then deciding once again i dont want to read it or buying it by mistake thinking it looks good.
I know we don't tend to see the hate here, but over on KBoards where they have an equivalent thread to this one (and equally calm and civilised), every single author that commented had every single book 1-starred yesterday in what they describe as a "drive by."Things like that I just do not understand.
The thread is here if you want to read it: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topi...
I'd say that's perfectly acceptable, Peanut.I expect the goodreads mods are most concerned with and perhaps only concerned with the witch hunts of authors has been happening. I'm only peripherally aware of those goings on and have not seen any personally as I don't need to view strife, thank you very much.
There's a huge difference between saying you won't read an author's work because of views they have expressed publicly about say, same sex couples and opening a group or posting reviews to defame an author. Seems some people have so much time on their hands they even write thousands of word long rants on blogs.
I say those people need a bottle of wine and a vibrator.
As an unmarried man, I have to admit I find very few uses for a bottle of wine.
David wrote: "Candle holder; single stemmed vase..."I suppose... At least with these modern screw top bottles, you can put the lid back on afterwards.
Hello all, a very interesting thread. The subject of moderation has always vexed me, and I worry every time I use the delete key on a post.However, when I started this group it was partly because I was genuinely stunned that the official Kindle forum, that should have been full of literate, interesting people, had descended into a playground for a few trolls.
For Indies the reviews are an important selling tool. I have seen a few amazon reviews over the years that have killed a book dead and a few authors going in to meltdown as a result.
I suppose the written word has always been controversial and that is a good thing. Once something is written down it is very difficult to erase. This is even more true in the internet age and puts a responsibility on the writer to be aware of the consequences of their words.
On the whole I think I approve of Goodreads taking this step. Everything has its place and personal attacks on review pages doesn't seem to be the right place.
Many talented people (authors, actors, film directors, politicians, moderators) are not particularly nice people, but we aren't expected to like them, just to enjoy and respect their talent.
On this group we have managed to keep a certain level of dignity in our interactions (although I quite like a bit of controversy), which makes moderating very easy. If you look at other groups of this size on Goodreads you will see that many feel the need to have five or six moderators. It is a tribute to our groupies that we muddle along with Patti working hard and me popping in from time to time in between opening hours.
Goodreads will continue to allow groups to develop in their own direction and you don't have to look very far to see the huge variety of Goodreads groups (if I had hair some of the groups would have made it curl).
Tim wrote: "I know we don't tend to see the hate here, but over on KBoards where they have an equivalent thread to this one (and equally calm and civilised), every single author that commented had every single..."One aspect, Tim, of the underground war that's going on. And in some groups even moderators that have taken a stand against mutual disrespect have been attacked.
Edit: Simon, I have been introduced to a couple of groups that left me with nightmares! I ran away...
Yeah, I've been invited to join a few of those...*shudder*
Not sure why anyone thought I'd be interested in the first place!!!
Someone posted this( http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1... ) on my Facebook page and it seems to be getting people hot under the collar.
So I was wondering what everyone here thought of it???
As an author I can't help feeling a tiny bit relieved: you hear such horrible stories of bullying, and I still remember how bad it got on Amazon.
But on the other hand, I can't help feeling that some Indies really do ask for the trouble they receive, by being very rude and thinking that they have a right to spam and demand good reviews just because they've written a book.
No one likes to hear that their 'baby' is ugly, but when you put yourself out there, you should be ready for people to not like your work. It's their prerogative, and I always like to say that if something as universally yummy as chocolate can have it's haters, the rest of us haven't a hope!!! ;-P
I guess what I'm saying is that if you want to be treated like a professional writer, then you must behave in a professional way. As authors we have a duty to treat the public with respect, after all: without readers, where would we be???
It's that old saying, isn't it: the customer is ALWAYS right?
I would just like to point out that without writers, readers wouldn't have anything to read! Not that I'm excusing Diva Authors! ;-P
I don't understand the nastiness, and I don't think I ever will.
You didn't like the book?
I can understand that, I've read a lot of books that I didn't like and you have my full sympathy. There's nothing more irritating than wasting your time on a book you end up hating!
You give it a bad review?
That's fine by me, I've written bad reviews myself! Yes, as an author it's depressing to receive a bad review, but hey, as the song goes: you were never promised a rose garden.
Along with the good reviews that bring sunshine to your day, there's going to be a little rain sometime. You just have to learn to deal with that.
But attacking someone whose behaviour you deem unacceptable?
This is where I stop being on your side.
The very thing you are accusing them of, and are disgusted with them for? You've just done exactly the same thing.
Don't get me wrong: I've had authors be horrible to me too. Sometimes it was because I didn't like their book, but more often because they didn't think that I was important enough to be nice to.
I've met those people, I've been on the receiving end of the nastiness, so please don't think that I don't know that there are some authors out there who don't know how to behave.
But I have my revenge: I never buy another thing from them. I don't 'like' their activity on goodreads/facebook/amazon/etc. I gain satisfaction from knowing that they will never see another penny from me, not ever again!
And for me, that's enough.
As an author, I've never replied to a bad review. It doesn't help the situation and in my opinion this is where the problem starts. By putting your book out there for others to read, you are ASKING for their opinion. You're asking them to part with their hard earned cash, shouldn't that entitle them to decide whether your story was worth it or not?
Even if you gave it to them for free, they still spent their time on it, probably their precious leisure time! They should be able to say if it was time badly spent!
On the other hand, I've met a lot of fellow Indies who are very nice! They've helped me with proofreading, and in return I've helped them when they need an extra pair of eyes. I've even criticized their work and had them thank me for my opinion!!! Sometimes they ignore what I say, and some times they take it on board. Either way, I'm happy. I want people to know that I'm telling them the truth, that when I tell them I loved a book they KNOW that I mean it, and that when I say that a book wasn't for me, I have actually READ the book and I'm not just paying someone back for not liking my stories, or for saying something that I've took offence to.
I guess what I'm taking so long to say is:
Readers,
please don't give up on us Indies. Not all of us are crazies that will stalk you and be unpleasant to you just because you didn't like our book!
Authors,
someone posted a bad review of your book that you think was unfair, or targeted you personally? That sucks, but it's also life. Engaging in ANY kind of interaction with them will only make things worse. Not for them, you understand, but ALWAYS for you.
Think that's unfair? Well, maybe it is. That snarky comment you post, the down votes you hand out in retribution, or the friends that you rally in your defence, isn't going to make it any fairer. You'll just prove them right, because all of those things you do in revenge DO make you a jerk.
That might not be the most pleasant truth to handle, but it's still the truth.
This is just my opinion of course, feel free to disagree without fear of retribution! ;-P