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The Forsyte Saga - To Let - Part III
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Although I haven't found it particularly easy to find things on which to comment for discussion, TFS has certainly been a pleasant interlude of reading. These last sections crystallized and clarified a number of questions that I had had throughout, especially the center of the stand-off between Soames and Irene. From a purely romantic viewpoint, I was sorry Jon and Fleur were unable to resolve their deep-seated familial issues, but the actual ending was probably more realistic.This week I received on loan the three disk (6 episode) series -- and have one week to watch it. My guess is that I would like the casting (particularly of Soames and Irene) of the earlier black-and-white version better, but decided to start with the later one in color.
I found it unconvincing that Jon would give up Fleur. His mother said, "think of yourself, not me, but his father still carries the old grudge. And despite being scheming, I believe Fleur truly loves him.
Lily wrote: "Although I haven't found it particularly easy to find things on which to comment for discussion, TFS has certainly been a pleasant interlude of reading. These last sections crystallized and clarif..."The series was shown over 2 years, first 2 books in 2002 and To Let in 2003. Do you have both seasons?
I did find it believable that Jon gave up Fleur. There were several factors. He may have given some thought to what his mother said about, "You're a giver and she's a taker." He may have put that together with Fleur's dishonesty to him and her apparent scheming. But I think seeing Irene with Soames was what really did it. His father's letter had mentioned the look on Irene's face when she saw Soames at Lords. Jon apparently walked into the room with Irene and Soames just as Soames tried to get Irene to take his hand, and her expression was very likely a mix of fear and revulsion. If Jon put that together with any doubts he had about Fleur, then I can believe that would be enough for him to give her up, at least in the short run. He then leaves town almost immediately, almost as though he fears losing his resolve if he stays.
Rochelle wrote: "The series was shown over 2 years, first 2 books in 2002 and To Let in 2003. Do you have both seasons? ..."Rochelle, I finally checked tonight. These three disks tell the story in two modules of 8 episodes each (48 episodes total). This takes the story through the marriage of Soames and Annette. (As best I can tell without watching, the birth of Fleur is not included.) It does not include To Let, which you tell me was shown as a third season. Suspect I'll probably want to view it if available when/if I get through these. They are pleasant to watch. Some of the characters I am finding take almost longer to identify in the film than in the book (e.g., old Jolyon and his brothers). Some were real surprises to me in their portrayals, like Swithin. But he does fit, just different than I had envisioned.
There weren't 3 seasons. To Let was the 2nd season. This one is the entire trilogy.http://www.amazon.com/Forsyte-Saga-Co...
Strangely, the cover photo shows Irene dancing with Dartie.
When bought alone, the 2003-2004 series is called Series II.
Poor Soames. Right up to the end, he can't understand why Irene didn't love him. He's again involved in a loveless marriage, and Fleur repeats the same mistake. Like her mother, she'll probably end up taking a lover.
Rochelle wrote: "There weren't 3 seasons. To Let was the 2nd season. This one is the entire trilogy.http://www.amazon.com/Forsyte-Saga-Co......"
Thanks for this info, Rochelle. Actually, I believe that is the set I have, which is the first season. Yes, Irene does dance with Dartie at the ball as pictured. I don't recall that is in the original book -- in fact, I'd have to recheck about the whole ballroom sequence. But it works in the movie.
Here is apparently the second season that I am missing (but it seems to be only two DVDs -- strange):
http://www.amazon.com/The-Forsyte-Sag...
There is also a 7-DVD collection that is the earlier black and white version:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Forsyte-Sag...
Rochelle wrote: "Poor Soames. Right up to the end, he can't understand why Irene didn't love him. He's again involved in a loveless marriage, and Fleur repeats the same mistake. Like her mother, she'll probably en..."The movie has Soames' mother tell Irene "you put up with that" to have the joy of children! Somewhere, Soames' sex education apparently went wildly astray, i.e., was probably non-existent.
I have not finished the reading yet, but I cannot help but to wonder, if Jon's only objection to a marriage with Fleur is his not wanting to hurt his mother (and if his feelings for her have not changed with what he discovered) and I believe Jolyon said Irene was by now 50 something years old, why couldn't Fleur and Jon make an arrangement to postpone their wedding until Irene's death? Jon could have told Fluer that since his father's death he needed to devote himself to his mother, who had no one else, but that when Irene passed away they could be married. And if Fleur truly loved him, she would wait until that time.
Silver wrote: "I have not finished the reading yet, but I cannot help but to wonder, if Jon's only objection to a marriage with Fleur is his not wanting to hurt his mother (and if his feelings for her have not ch..."There are 6 more novels after these.:-)
The other objection was that Jolyon didn't want him involved with that grasping, greedy side of the family.
Lily wrote: "Rochelle wrote: "Poor Soames. Right up to the end, he can't understand why Irene didn't love him. He's again involved in a loveless marriage, and Fleur repeats the same mistake. Like her mother, s..."No, his sex education was exactly what most men had at that time, which is why middle-class and upper-class women "put up with it" rather than enjoying it.
There are some differences between the series and the novels, I don't know if there are enough people here who saw the series to discuss it. The most glaring difference for me is the last scene with Soames visiting Irene after she puts the house up for rent. For the first time, kind words are spoken between them, they shake hands, and you feel that the bell has finally rung for him, although not loudly.
This does not appear at all in the novel. They exchange glances at a distance, and he's still in the dark at the end.
Lily wrote: "Yes, Irene does dance with Dartie at the ball as pictured"What I meant is that this is such a minor part of the story, but the implication on the cover is that Dartie is Soames' rival. (Rupert Graves is much handsomer.) Sort of false advertising.
The Nitpicker
Rochelle wrote: "The other objection was that Jolyon didn't want him involved with that grasping, greedy side of the family. "In his letter to Jon, Jolyon emphasizes the effect the marriage would have upon Irene, as the primary reason why Jon should not marry Fleur.
And while Jolyon may have objected to that greedy, property driven side of the family I do not that Jon was influenced by that. I was speaking of Jon's objection to continuing his engagement with Fleur, not Jolyon's objections.
Jon's reason for breaking things off with Fleur is purely because he cannot give his mother further pain, particularly after Jolyon's death.
Silver wrote: "...Jon's reason for breaking things off with Fleur is purely because he cannot give his mother further pain, particularly after Jolyon's death...."Galsworthy does set up several Freud worthy parent-child relationships: Old Jolyon - young Jolyon, Fleur - Soames, Jon - Irene. Even the old Jolyon - June grandparent - grandchild relationship has a special flavor. (I wanted more of Soames' relationship with his parents. There were traces, but not developed into the story line.)
Rochelle wrote: "What I meant is that this is such a minor part of the story, but the implication on the cover is that Dartie is Soames' rival. (Rupert Graves is much handsomer.) Sort of false advertising...."Ben Miles played Dartie. (Better looking w/o the mustache.) Maybe it was considered too much of a give away of the plot to use Bosinney (Ioan Gruffudd). Young Jolyon (Rupert Graves) wasn't at the ball.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0260615/f...
Lily wrote: " (I wanted more of Soames' relationship with his parents. There were traces, but not developed into the story line...) "
Perish the thought. He would have added another 100 pages. Of course you could check out the next 6 books to see if there are any flashbacks...
I wonder why the next 6 are not so widely read or adapted to other media. Can we dig up some current reviews?
ETA--you might have your wish: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forsyte_...
Lily wrote: " (I wanted more of Soames' relationship with his parents. There were traces, but not developed into the story line...)James seemed like a rather cold fish. I suspect Soames' relationship with his parents was not close or warm.
I have to say I cannot help but to be in camp Soamaes and Fleur. Soames may not have been a good husband, but I think he makes the better parent than Irene. He is willing to stand aside (and not in the way of his daughter's happiness). He does not want to lose her affection to Jon, of all people, but he does put Fleur's feelings, and happiness ahead of his own. It is all well and good for Irene to tell Soames that it is all in Jon's hands, and claim that she has not verbally opposed the marriage, but her telling Jon "Don't think of me, think of your own happiness" to me seems like a total guilt trip. Not to mention she knew what was in the letter that Jolyon gave to Jon. And when Jolyon wrote that marriage to Fleur would "destroy his mothers happiness" Irene did not raise an eyebrow, but she consented to the letter being given to her son.
They could have informed Jon of the truth without intentionally and directly trying to influence him against Fleur and the marriage and truly let him make up his own mind, by giving them the facts without their own bias.
I think Irene is selfish and thinks more of her own feelings than her sons happiness, she is also making her son carry the burden of her past which is just wrong.
Silver, I can understand your position, but there is another way of looking at it. Irene and Jolyon both have an intense dislike for Soames, and in Irene's case part of it is fear. She may feel, at some deep and subconscious level, that Fleur is dangerous for Jon. Irene may feel that Soames' daughter just cannot be as nice as she seems. When I was young, my mother told me that, if I ever decided to marry someone, that I should go spend a week with his parents first, because he was going to turn out to be just like them.
Rochelle wrote: "Lily wrote: " (I wanted more of Soames' relationship with his parents. There were traces, but not developed into the story line...)"Perish the thought. He would have added another 100 pages. Of..."
Interestingly, it seemed to me that the TV series provided more, especially when his mother spoke to Irene and when Soames became ill after Irene left and his mother cared for him.
I was fascinated by how the scriptwriter seemed in ways to "modernize" the story, including sexual relationships that did not seem to be part of the original.
Silver wrote: "I think Irene is selfish and thinks more of her own feelings than her sons happiness, she is also making her son carry the burden of her past which is just wrong...."It may be wrong, but it might also have been realistic. The choice did ultimately have to be his, to live with its consequences. I think many of us have watched children make those choices.
Lily wrote: "Silver wrote: "I think Irene is selfish and thinks more of her own feelings than her sons happiness, she is also making her son carry the burden of her past which is just wrong...."It may be wron..."
But my problem is that I do not believe they gave him a fair chance to make that choice. They heavily influenced him to make the choice they wanted him to make.
Somaes did not want Fleur to marry Jon, but he truly allowed Fleur to choose for herself. He did not put Fleur in the position of you have to choose between me and Jon, he made his dislike known, but he still accepted it, if it is what Fleur wanted.
Irene and Jolyon do put Jon in the place of having to truly choose between Irene or Fleur.
She does not accept the relationship. Even if she does not verbally forbid Jon to make the choice, she makes it very clear how unhappy she will be if he chooses Fleur.
Lily wrote: "Rochelle wrote: "Lily wrote: " (I wanted more of Soames' relationship with his parents. There were traces, but not developed into the story line...)"Perish the thought. He would have added anothe..."
I watched them 10 years ago, don't remember all the details. Wish I could afford a copy.
Casceil wrote: "I did find it believable that Jon gave up Fleur. There were several factors. He may have given some thought to what his mother said about, "You're a giver and she's a taker." He may have put tha..."I think Jon's choice to give up Fleur revolves entirely around mommy dearest. He could not bare the thought of doing anything to hurt his mother, particularly after the death of Jolyon (as his father indicated within the letter he gave to Jon before his death) Jon was now all Irene had left.
Irene tells him to think of himself and not of her, but that is a guilt laden statement. If he were to say ok, and go off and marry Fleur he would feel himself a brute. (In the same way that he could not bring himself to actually tell Irene he wanted to travel without her, but invited her to come with him just so avoid hurting her feelings).
I could not help but laugh at Fleur's statement to Jon about boys still being tied to their mother's apron strings.
Jon is a hopeless mammas boy. So he acted like a coward and ran away from Fleur and his feelings to please mummy.
Don't forget that Jon has been brought up in a family that had lost a son in military service. That can impact senses of family obligations. I don't consider Jon "a hopeless mamma's boy," although mother and son may have attachments that cross the boundaries of what we see today as totally healthy and mature. Jon is young and capable enough to find another mate.
Lily wrote: "Jon is young and capable enough to find another mate. ..."Yeah but I bet he would never be with anyone Irene did not fully approve of.
Silver wrote: "Lily wrote: "Jon is young and capable enough to find another mate. ..."Yeah but I bet he would never be with anyone Irene did not fully approve of."
Maybe, maybe not. He may be "Irene's child" but he does have his father's rebellious blood, with its associated reputation.
What if Fleur had been willing to wait a few years before marrying? She didn't exactly hang around or invest her energy somewhere like June.
Lily wrote: "What if Fleur had been willing to wait a few years before marrying? She didn't exactly hang around."..."
Though I do not agree with her jumping into marriage with Mont because she does not love him (and still loves Jon) so that is not likely to end well, I do not think she had any obligation to Jon to wait, when he gave her up and sent a letter telling her he left the country and was not coming back.
He made it clear to Fleur he choose Irene over her. He gave her no reason to believe that they might still be together in time.
Silver wrote: "...I do not think she had any obligation to Jon to wait,..."I agree -- no obligations. But, if she truly loved him, she could have diverted her energies someplace besides marriage for perhaps 1-3 years.
Lily wrote: "Silver wrote: "...I do not think she had any obligation to Jon to wait,..."I agree -- no obligations. But, if she truly loved him, she could have diverted her energies someplace besides marriage..."
And if Jon truly loved Fleur he would not have abandoned her to please his mother.
I believe that if the shoe was on the other foot. If Soames had more strongly opposed the match (instead of being willing to put his daughters happiness ahead of his own as he did) if Soames had made Fleur truly choose between him or Jon, I don't think Fleur would have folded the way Jon did.
Fleur would rebelled against her father to be with Jon.
She should not have rushed into a marriage so soon, and where there was no love, but what purpose or good to wait when she was given no reason to hope?
If Jon had said something to her to indicate that it was not the end for them, that he just needed time with Irene, that they might still have a future, then I think she would have waited.
Times and situations like those just aren't easy, as Galsworthy lays out in his novel. Watching the DVD brought that home with the case of Winifred and Dartie. What a dance that was, almost a danse macabre. But certainly Soames is the prime example of pursuing beyond the point of hope and reason. I wonder when Fleur understood that story fully. She at least didn't follow in her father's footsteps in that sense. (In some ways, Soames seems even more compulsive in the film than in the book, although both carry the theme very clearly.)
Silver wrote: "Lily wrote: "Silver wrote: "...I do not think she had any obligation to Jon to wait,..."I agree -- no obligations. But, if she truly loved him, she could have diverted her energies someplace bes..."
We could set up a little group to continue reading the
We don't know exactly what goes on in Irene's mind, whether he would need her approval of his next fiancee. She's still a mystery.
Rochelle wrote: "Silver wrote: "Lily wrote: "Silver wrote: "...I do not think she had any obligation to Jon to wait,..."I agree -- no obligations. But, if she truly loved him, she could have diverted her energie..."
That is something to consider, but I have to say, though I enjoyed these books, after reading all three of them in a row I really could use a break from the Forsytes and I am looking forward to reading other things for a while.
Mod
Some favourite spots in this last section:
In Ch. 2, after Jolyon gives Jon the letter and he is thinking about his illness and how Jon will react:
"His heart thumped and pained him. Life-it wore you down, yet did not make you want to die-that was the cunning evil!...And out there somewhere in the fragrance Jon would be reading that letter, turning and twisting its pages in his trouble, his bewilderment and trouble-breaking his heart about it!"
In ch. 6, after Jolyon's death, we see Jon moving towards his final decision. On his feelings for Irene's role in his relationship with Fleur:
"He did not judge or condemn her; that was all too remote-indeed, the idea of doing so had never come to him. No! he was grudging and unnatural because he couldn't have what he wanted because of her." And later, when he meets Fleur and Fleur declares her love and begs him not to give her up, they embrace..."but eve while he yielded, the poison worked in him, the poison of the letter. Fleur did not know, she did not understand-she misjudged his mother; she came from the enemy's camp! So lovely, and he loved her so-yet, even in her embrace, he could not help the memory of Holly's words: 'I think she has a "having" nature,' and his mother's 'My darling boy, don't think of me-think of yourself!' "
This is followed at the end of the chapter by Irene saying " 'You are a giver, Jon; she is a taker.' " Jon's denies and defends Fleur and Irene follows with " 'I told you that night, dear, not to mind me. I meant it. Think of yourself and your own happiness! I can stand what's left-I've brought it on myself.' ...What (Jon) felt was in his chest-a sort of tearing asunder of the tissue there, by the two loves."
I do feel in these sections we see Irene ultimately putting her own needs ahead of those of her son, but doing it in such a way that she has made it plain to him that in choosing Fleur he will destroy his mother-and Irene ultimately triumphs in securing her boy to herself.
In the same chapter there is a lovely description of how Jon comes to see his father as he prepares an exhibit of his works:
"A one-man exhibition of his work was the least testimony they could pay to one they had loved; and on preparation of this they spent many hours together. Jon came to have a curiously increased respect for his father. The quiet tenacity with which he had converted a mediocre talent into something really individual was disclosed by these researches. There was a great mass of work with a rare continuity of growth in depth and reach of vision. Nothing certainly went very deep, or reached very high-but such as the work was, it was thorough.conscientious, and complete...To take himself seriously, yet never bore others by letting them know that he did so, seemed to have been his ruling principle."
I rather wondered if this as well was something of a self-portrait by Galsworthy-how he viewed his own art-his writing-but in any case it was a wonderful description of a good man and squared exactly with the character that had been portrayed through the novel.
There were many memorable passages in the chapters on Fleur's wedding, but it is interesting that the novel ends looking backwards-with the death of Old Timothy (and how touching and sad that no one, save Soames and the servants, came to the funeral), the removal of the faithful servants from the grand, decaying home (which to my sorrow was ultimately sold off-I had really hoped for that Museum of Victoriana!) and Soames looking back and reflecting on his life and the progress (and now, the decline?) of the Forsyte clan. There is also his final meeting with Irene-where she appears to bestow forgiveness in her triumph (for now she appears to have robbed both him and his adored daughter of their life happiness) and he refuses to acknowledge this. The novel ends with Soames sitting, on an autumn evening by the family vault, looking back over his life and the family saga:
"And only one thing really troubled him, sitting there-the melancholy craving in his heart-because the sun was like the enchantment on his face and on the clouds and on the golden birch leaves, and the wind's rustle was so gentle, and the yew-tree green so dark, and the sickle of a moon pale in the sky.
He might wish and wish and never get it-the beauty and the loving in the world!"
My one question-can someone explain Timothy's will?
I thought that Soames' willingness to give into Fleur and Jon's marriage would have been natural to him. He is not only used to giving Fleur his way, as he admits, he only had one love/passion of his life. No matter the fact that Irene left him and married another, he never got over her. I think it would have been hard for him to deny Fleur her one true love. Meanwhile, both Jolyon and Irene loved more than once in their life (Jolyon's second wife and Bossinney) - they would have seen love as something that can be found more than once in life.
I'm watching the latest BBC version through Netflix. No one looks the way I imagined them, and I thought it was interesting how much of the backstory they are adding. And who knew I was mispronouncing her name the entire time? (Iren-y?) I think Greer Garson is going to remain my favorite Irene.I bought the other two volumes at the same time as this one, and will try to finish the series. However, I'm definitely going to take at least October off from the Forsytes, as much as I love them.
Frances, I was completely confused by the will too. Hopefully, some English lawyer can explain it to us.
Mod
Really? It's Ireen'y"? Is that the common pronunciation of Irene in Britain? I had assumed it was I-reen.
No one else has noticed that Emily has changed her ID? I had seen the series in 2002-03, and knew the Brits do that. But, hey, they also say "whilst" instead of "while." :-) Let us continue the correct way, or I will shut down this board and lay off all the workers without pay. ;-)
The name Adele is also pronounced differently in US than it is in GR. Of course, so is St. John.
Frances wrote: "Kai wrote: And who knew I was mispronouncing her name the entire time? (Iren-y?) I think Greer Garson is going to remain my favorite Irene."Really? It's Ireen'y"? Is that the common pronunciatio..."
LOL! I don't know what led to the film production pronunciation, but just as not all the characters physical or emotional characteristics translated for me, neither did her name. Irene will largely remain "I-reen" in my thoughts of her.
Lovely commentary @36, Frances. Thank you.
However, it would be rather sad if a Nobel-worthy author saw himself a mediocre talent whose art reached neither very deep nor very high, but it is possible Galsworthy had such self-doubts. I don't know his biography at all. The Forsyte Saga is somehow so smooth that perhaps it is easy to minimize its scope -- as you say, to assume its soap opera qualities, rather than the sweep of a family and the values of a class, even perhaps a nation, at a particular point in time, it embodies and memorializes. Like much of great art, the artist has made it look easy to create.
And the Brits also pronounced it "I-reen-y Adler" in Jeremy Brett's Sherlock Holmes series, so you've all had fair warning. ;-)
Frances wrote: "...He might wish and wish and never get it-the beauty and the loving in the world!"..."He's smart enough to know he's missing something. I have more empathy for him at the end, as did Galsworthy.
Mod
OK, so I know about SinJin, but how would Adele (which I pronounce A-dell, emphasis on the second syllable) be pronounced in the Queen's English?
Frances wrote: "☯Emily Who Wonders Why GR Is Silent wrote: "The name Adele is also pronounced differently in US than it is in GR. Of course, so is St. John."OK, so I know about SinJin, but how would Adele (whic..."
I looked at your reply and said, "Yes, how else would I pronounce Adele?" Then I realized the name is Adela that I was referring to. I've have heard pronounced as ADD-a-lah as well as a-DEL-la. The parents who pronounce their daughter's name as ADD-a-lah said it was the English way. Don't know for a fact that it is.
I had better get a comment in now that the calendar has turned and we're on to our next reading. First, I want to thank this group for selecting the Forsyte Saga, which I reluctantly undertook but now count as one of my all-time favorites (not that I've read tons of books). It did take a while to win me over - maybe the tide turned during the first interlude, "Indian Summer". As I read further into the Saga I found myself highlighting more passages on my electronic version of the book. I was always a little behind in the reading and thus avoided the discussion for fear of spoilers, so I apologize in advance if I'm repeating any ground that was already covered. While I'm ready to take a break from the Forsytes, I'm not ready to forsake them forever -- I hope at some point to pick up the next story or two about them.Frances wrote: "I rather wondered if this as well was something of a self-portrait by Galsworthy-how he viewed his own art-his writing-but in any case it was a wonderful description of a good man and squared exactly with the character that had been portrayed through the novel."
I think I agree with you Frances, I had suspected Galsworthy identified most closely with "Young Jolyon" in more ways than one. A good, solid, artist, maybe not brilliant but with more depth than meets the eye. I wonder how Galsworthy reacted to winning the Nobel Prize (although according to his Wikipedia entry he was too ill to attend the awards ceremony and died a few weeks later).
Finally I was surprised at how much I cared about Soames up to the end, a character I initially found to be somewhere between loathsome and pitiable, not the least for his misguided views on property and its relation to happiness. I wanted to seem him grow a bit, maybe even display the tiniest bit of humility. Perhaps there was a glimmer of hope when he went the exhibition of Jolyon's works:
"...Soames came nearer than he had ever been to realisation of that truth—passing the understanding of a Forsyte pure—that the body of Beauty has a spiritual essence, uncapturable save by a devotion which thinks not of self. After all, he was near that truth in his devotion to his daughter; perhaps that made him understand a little how he had missed the prize. And there, among the drawings of his kinsman, who had attained to that which he had found beyond his reach, he thought of him and her with a tolerance which surprised him."
For all his flaws I felt sad for Soames as he sat there in the cemetery at the end, the loneliest man in the world, unable to obtain what he truly desires, in spite of all that he possesses. I'm curious to see if as a character he's simply at a dead end, or if in a subsequent Forsyte tale Galsworthy will nudge him down a path of some further enlightenment.
Richard wrote: "I had better get a comment in now that the calendar has turned and we're on to our next reading. First, I want to thank this group for selecting the Forsyte Saga, which I reluctantly undertook but ..."Missed this as we concluded our discussion awhile ago. Appreciated coming across it tonight. Thx, Richard.
Part III
I.—OLD JOLYON WALKS
II.—CONFESSION
III.—IRENE
IV.—SOAMES COGITATES
V.—THE FIXED IDEA
VI.—DESPERATE
VII.—EMBASSY
VIII.—THE DARK TUNE
IX.—UNDER THE OAK-TREE
X.—FLEUR'S WEDDING
XI.—THE LAST OF THE OLD FORSYTES