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Delusions of Gender
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Gender differences: Do they really hardwired in our brains? Do they really exist? Or a cultural Myth?
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message 1:
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Nik
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Sep 20, 2013 08:05PM
Yes. Both genders were given certain advantages over the other.
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Yeah. But neither superior to the other.
Okay, but some females have all of the hardwired capabilities of men.
I'm not going very far into this, but in gay couples there are the different people in the couple with the different advantages.
I'm not going very far into this, but in gay couples there are the different people in the couple with the different advantages.
I don't think "hardwiring" can explain why gender stereotypes, as well as the concepts of femininity & masculinity, differ so much across different cultures & different time periods. I think the current consensus in academia is that gender differences are most likely not biological but social & cultural in origin.
I do agree that gender difference exists but to say it is hardwired or social myth is quite questionable. What I believe is, since they are anatomically and genetically different, they tend to have different strength and weaknesses. Professor Steven Goldberg, Chairman of the Department of Sociology at City College of New York, maintains that although males and females are different in their genetic and hormonally-driven behavior, this does not mean that one sex is superior or inferior to another. He believes the neuro-endocrinological evidence is clear: The high level of testosterone in males drives them toward dominance in the world, while the lack of high levels of this hormone in women creates a natural, biological push in the direction of less dominant and more nurturing roles in society.
Science makes plain that males and females are different from the moment of conception. As Amram Scheinfeld notes in Your Heredity and Environment, these differences between men and women are evident in the chromosomes which carry inherited traits from the father and mother. Humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes within each cell; twenty-two of these are alike in both males and females. But, says Scheinfeld, "...when we come to the twenty-third pair, the sexes are not the same. . . every woman has in her cells two of what we call the X chromosome. But a man has just one X---its mate being the much smaller Y."
Sex differentiation takes place immediately as the male or female begins to develop within the womb. The sex hormones --primarily estrogen and testosterone--have a significant impact on the behavior of males and females.
Steven Goldberg's position on this is quite controversial & as far as I know not really shared by the vast majority of sociologists today. "Gender is a social construct" is a thing most of them agree on these days.
It doesn't matter what different sociologist says. Because all have different opinion. The point is that he did make a point. That, what he said, somewhere nails something isn't it. That's is why women is the one who conceive and not men, because women are more of a nurturer and men protector.
Few parts biological, rest of the parts social. I believe personal, social, cultural influences are stronger than biological characteristics; as they overshadow it all the time ...Abilities are nurtured, not hardwired! Unless; one is born with the same genetic structure as Wonder Woman or Hulk!
Raeez wrote: "@purvika : So you say that those hormones change the wiring of the brain ? But later researchers have concluded against it."
Yes, the hormones does change the development of brain.
Here : read it http://www.columbiaconsult.com/pubs/v...
And can you please provide me the link because I would like to see how researchers have concluded against it.
Raeez wrote: "Purvika wrote: "It doesn't matter what different sociologist says. Because all have different opinion. The point is that he did make a point. That, what he said, somewhere nails something isn't it...."We can change opinion but cannot neglect the facts even if few disagree with it . We should explore ourselves to gain knowledge about the facts to understand the basics behind it.
Yes, there are social aspects but that does not change the fact that internally they are different. Society or social environment might change them but it is a temporary phase .
If a child is in danger , the father will instinctly buckle up and get ready for fight . Where as in most cases a mother will first instinctively hold the child close to her and will strategize the best possible way to keep the child safe. Because both of them think differently.
Abhay wrote: "@Som- Some good points there but about abilities, I think not all abilities can be nurtured. Some are innate and consolidated by putting them to practice.."Cheers mate. And example(s) please?!
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^^Hey! 'Moobs' are mostly occupational (and responsibility) hazards; they are as harmless, as pale as they can get. Innocents, shouldn't be pointed at! lolAbout physical differences. I support 'Team Rousey' over 'Team Tate'...although, together they can beat the batshit out of Batman bare handed. And Serena Williams can out-smash them all!!
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Only a little in my opinion. The inherent differences between men and women are far blown out of proportion!
This is the common misconception of "males" thinking "females" lack knowledge of anything other than nursing, parenting , art etc. Gender difference does not effect once knowledge. It is basically just the difference between two people. Just as the different is between two people form different continent. Does that mean they cannot learn other language ?
Gender difference has got nothing to do with knowledge.
And physically appearance is evolutionary but genetic difference is not
@ Raeez as for your previous statement regarding earth is round . There is a difference between facts and myths. Earth is flat was our own perception not a fact which changed when it was discovered earth is "ROUND". So no, I don't think facts changes...
Umm...An example, we read in our schools a fact that there are nine planets in our solar system. But not anymore.... Oh boy .... That was discovery we discovered that there are nine planets in our solar system, which later again found out to be the start of many discoveries. Whereas, one cannot change the fact that human body has 23 pair of chromosomes where 22 are alike in both male and female and 23 is where the difference begun. Now that is called a FACT
i think yes it is wired in us biologically and psychologically in both ways it is wired in us
for example when a boy plays with barbie or when a girl play with toy car it seems odd
why ? bcoz it is not easily acceptable
but yes upbringing affects most
@ Raeez msg 56 about sun rising and setting a fact. Again I am telling you we cannot call everything a FACT which we assume. Because it was never proven that sun rises or sets it was what we assumed Untill facts came about it. And it was due to lack of knowledge. In old times people were less educated so they tend to believe what they heard rather than try to search for themselves what is said is true or not. And thus those assumptions cannot be justified as facts . But, now we cannot neglect the discoveries that are undisputedly a fact. And whatever stereotypes you are reffering here have disputes. For example. The mathematics stereotype you mentioned: Please take your time to read this article :
http://munews.missouri.edu/news-relea...
It will tell you how disputed your theory of stereotype is when it comes to mathematics.
The common misconception regarding men better at math than female is gender difference. Whereas it as nothing to do with it. The real reason identified so far is education and upbringing. The countries where a girlis given free pass to choose whatever she want to study see more female mathematician than the countries who are biased When it comes to education. Moreover, in older times girls were refrained from studying as much as boys so the ratio was 13:1 regarding mathematicians but now it is 3:1 . What does it mean ? Does the stereotype over the year is tripping or the girls are getting more education ? Don't you think if we look at the ratio, in future years girls may par the ratio ? And the scale tips to the girls side ?
Parents also plays a major role in this stereotyping when asked a parent what does you want your son to become they say engineer and daughter doctor ?
My friend's family : the younger daughter is studying as maths as her major and elder son took medicine. And in my family too my dad took science and my eldest brother arts where as my elder Brother was forced to take engineering because he is a boy . I was given free pass and I was told that I excelled in mathematics in my school academics. Infact i have a young friend who is inclined towards mathematics and she is a girl.
Contd...
And the experiment you mentioned above regarding stereotyping in maths... That is called playing psychologically with mind. Just before exam you are saying the students girls can't do maths better than guys ? Why say so when really want to see do they really perform less than boys ? It is as if already deciding about the results even before paper is given. This was regarding stereotype.... Moving onto next point. In your message 69 you said mind and brain are different entity. I would like to challenge this thought. I would explain to to you in computer language because that is the easiest way to explain.
A brain is a hardware where as mind is a software. One cannot go without other. So even if we say that they are different entity we cannot deny that mind cannot work without brain so if there is a slight change in the functioning of brain it does effect once mind. So, hormones and other biological aspects does have a direct effect on mind. Because the brain is designed based on these aspects only.
So, when one say it is social or upbringing or whatever regarding to gender difference. The actual root cause is BRAIN.
To understand this you will have to study deeply the functionality of a brain and try to form a opinion after reading more than 10 books rather than just one when it comes to gender difference. What is social or environment effect ? Those are not connected to nature but people. And if they are connected to people then each individual work according to the working of brain. Every move we make is caused by brain. We raise a finger, we type we speak we walk we think and we form a openion is all the doing of brain. So even if we say actually the gender difference is because of social or environmental effects the fact does not change that the root cause of all this is brain and when is brain formed ? In embryo stage.
The justification of this gender hardwiring thing will only add more favorable norms for 'sexism' which is as bad as 'racism'. Therefore I'll consider myself retired from this thread/discussion/topic(without reading any articles/opinions) and play hide and seek with my alter ego! cheers (:
Raeez wrote: "Anuj wrote: "i think yes it is wired in us biologically and psychologically in both ways it is wired in us
for example when a boy plays with barbie or when a girl play with toy car it seems odd
..."
then what make us to think like that there must be some chemistry in it , it is not possible to differentiate to kinds if both the kinds are same and definitely male female are both different physically and biologically in both ways
^^She didn't say Bananas being a form of meat at all. She claimed that 'it's an exaggeration clearly but would you trust it as it being the metaphoric claim of factual representation.' There's a huge difference. And a 'Fact' is often one dimensional which is itself a fact; in a never ending cyclic form. "Sun rises in the east" is a fact as it's inbound to our 'definition of fact'; you don't take intergalactic accounts for its validity. Research and thesis are 'revolutionized, solidified opinions' based on such facts waiting for mass, scholastic verification, takes years of experimentations. Without it, it's 'untrustworthy'.That link is all opinionated....Harvard's continual research alone, is able to invalidate those points in a period of time. As for the research they don't take babies of every country into account. 'Evolution' doesn't take a stand of its own; it has 'creative evolution', 'Neo Darwinism', 'tweaks of natural selection' etc come in variants of mutation and the variation of newborn activities. One can't generalize to obtain a guideline of gender mental wiring.
^It's also an opinion so feel free to counter....
Msg 75 That was my point. Since the beginning
If we go by what you say that facts change then we must think that the facts you are mentioning which have common disputes can change too. We cannot be for sure what you are saying will remain a fact for ever. Even it may change so what makes you so sure that social and culture is the main reason for gender difference. I am not saying that they do not effect but you have to understand during ones life time the testosterone and estrogen always lead the person.
A person with high testosterone level will always be aggressive no matter how much society and culture influence him. He may become mild for a time period but that will be a temporary phase. Same is with estrogen, the higher numer of estrogen present the higher is the nurture nature of the female. No amount of culture or environment can change their default behavior.
Contd next post ...
Msg 76 and 77 Again, the culture and society can change the way you think, even the way you behave for a short period of time but the basic nature always remains the same.
I will give you a short example:
Transgenders, in many cultures and societies they are not welcomed, some even detest them but does that change their basic characteristics ? Infact the society now is open to the acceptance of them which they should. My point here is their biological aspects triumph over culture and environment. They do not change, they might behave differently for sometime but their characteristics does not change.
NOTE: I am in no way disrespecting them. I just tried to explain my point. If this have hurt anyone's feelings then please say so I will immediately remove this post with an apology but by no means I mean anything bad towards them
Msg 78 No that is not Called an impact of social surroundings. That "is" called playing psychologically with mind no matter what you say. And that experiment is invalid if both the parties aren't treated the same way.
When we are about to enter an exam we ourselves are nervous about paper and top that someone tries to discourage just before starting. Obviously the results will be of their liking.
Msg 79 if you have read my article clearly you would notice the list you provided actually side with hormones. The amount of hormones present in one body determines the nature and characteristics of the person. As I have already mentioned it.
if you say many women are dominant and many men are mild and nurturing in nature then I will say if they are tested you will find the reason why. It is not because of social or environment but because the women with dominant nature carry lower amount of estrogen and a bit higher of testosterone along with the combination of Progesterone and Oxytocin which defines the personality traits.
Msg 80,81,82So even if we go by your statement, if the mind and self try to grasp the nature or culture it will always be a temporary phase as I have said it again and again.
The culture changes the mind changes, but biological aspects remains the same.
Yes ... If I think it this way then also I feel the same... Because to prove that girls are really not good in maths and boys are... Both of them should be given fair chances to prove themselves. Why is it that only girls get this type of experiments before exam and not guys . And yes , one more thing making a mind based on this kind of disputed experiment is absurd because even this experiment have been declared incorrect
Scientifically
in the link I had provided in msg 68So I would prefer a scientific experiment over a hypothetical experiment.
Raeez wrote: "So Purvika, you think that Women are wired biologically that makes majority of them to fit in only certain occupations?"There are gender differences biologically but that does not make anyone fit in ONLY certain occupations.
They have DIFFERENCS they aren't incapable and this is the main thing to understand, because these differences make them unique and not disabled.
