Monthly Group Reads: OCTOBER 2013 (Group Read 2) The Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

I enjoyed that about the start (before the theology wore my brain stem to gnawed string :)..). All the early descriptions of the creepy monastery and the hidden rooms etc.. I liked that bit.

[Cynthia]

Terri wrote: "I enjoyed that about the start (before the theology wore my brain stem to gnawed string :)..). All the early descriptions of the creepy monastery and the hidden rooms etc.. I liked that bit."

That's too funny about the brain stem! LOL

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

:D

[Michael]

I read this book a while ago, but I still remember being fascinated by the excellent writing style, and the subtlety with which the different threads were woven into a seamless whole: a murder mystery, a theological debate complete with accusations of heresy, and the general political tension that prevailed in that period.

The descriptions of the library are unforgettable, as are the characters like William of Baskerville and Adso of Melk. The theological arguments were detailed, but got interesting when different characters placed emphasis on different interpretations, with the resulting conflicts.

Definitely five stars.

[Troy]

I've just finished earlier today and I whilst I did enjoy this book it was quite heavy going at times.

Like a few others I found the long theological discussions to be a bit tedious. I know there was a point to them in the plot, they just could have been trimmed down greatly without harming the plot in my opinion. Others will obviously disagree.

I did like the whole atmosphere that was set up for life in the monastery and I loved the library and the characters. I found the views and values that characters expressed about both women and non Catholics to be really quite disturbing, but possibly accurate for this rather brutal and unenlightened time.

I'd really have liked to give the book 3.5 stars but I just couldn't round this up to 4 and put it alongside other books I've rated as 4 stars. The plot was real 5 star stuff but the rambling sections and rather heavy writing style just knocked it down to far for me.

Interesting how we are all different.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Troy wrote: " I found the views and values that characters expressed about both women and non Catholics to be really quite disturbing, but possibly accurate for this rather brutal and unenlightened time. ..."

I also found it disturbing. I meant to say something as I was reading. Obviously, as you say, accurate for the times, but as a woman, I found some of it very hard to stomach. It made me angry.
I have mentioned a few times in this thread that the subject matter (not the mystery, but all the theology and what not) was not to my liking. That I did not gel with all the religious talk. I am not a religious person and I certainly don't like to get close to religion during one of its ugliest stages. Add into that the way women were percevied by christianity (are still perceived by christianity) and this book gave me many a headache and many a moment of disgust.

[Eileen]

Terri wrote: "Troy wrote: " I found the views and values that characters expressed about both women and non Catholics to be really quite disturbing, but possibly accurate for this rather brutal and unenlightened..."

Well, I would disagree that women are still perceived badly by Christianity. I have never experienced that, as a lifelong Christian. There may be some Christians (as well as Jews, and more than a few in other religions) who perceive women in a medieval fashion, but it is not universal. It is more a universal human trait to denigrate what is not "me", than the purview of a particular culture/faith or time.

Peter Hessler writes books on his experiences over the past 18 years in China, first as a Peace Corps volunteer teaching English, and later as a reporter. One thing that surprised me from reading his books is that China has the world's highest rate of successful female suicides. In fact, unlike most everywhere else, more women commit suicide than men do. By several orders of magnitude. He attributed it to the very condescending attitude men have to women (they are servants more than anything else), and the preferences for male children. And this in an almost totally secular society.

[Julie]

What do people think, so far, of the book? This is my first time reading and am completely mesmerized! Amazing!

[Julie]

I have to admit I bought the guide to this book, which helped me immensely with the language and other references I am not familiar with:)

[Simona]

As you can see, Julie, we are quite divided. Some of us liked it, some found it at times overlong, some have been disturbed by the theological discussions and the all-religious theme...let us know how you are liking it.

[Simona]

Troy wrote: " I found the views and values that characters expressed about both women and non Catholics to be really quite disturbing, but possibly accurate for this rather brutal and unenlightened time.."

I agree, but I think it accurate too. All the book has a dark and disturbing atmosphere, on purpose I think, and IMO it gives the right mood for the setting.

[Daniel]

Simona wrote: "Troy wrote: " I found the views and values that characters expressed about both women and non Catholics to be really quite disturbing, but possibly accurate for this rather brutal and unenlightened..."

agreed. I love the contrast of ignorance and knowledge that feature heavily in this book.

[Daniel]

Julie wrote: "What do people think, so far, of the book? This is my first time reading and am completely mesmerized! Amazing!"

I loved this book many years ago when I first read it, and I am amazed again.

[Simona]

Daniel wrote: "agreed. I love the contrast of ignorance and knowledge that feature heavily in this book.
..."

me too :)

[Kirk]

I got a late start on this reread, so am only on p.37 as of today. I have to confess I haven't remembered much from when I read it 20 years ago, no from the film.

So far I'm still enjoying the writing style.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

I had only seen the film before I read it and had remembered nothing of the movie. As I read the book, form time to time I did have memories come back about the movie. Especially the deaths and the ending.

[Kirk]

I just came across the word "hypotyposis" in the text. Now that's not a common word at all in English, and since the original language of the book is Italian, it makes me wonder how the translator came to choose that word. What was the Italian word in the original?

I'm sure I'll encounter other example as I plow on.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Hey Kirk,
There are members with the Italian edition. Perhaps you could supply the page, chapter and maybe a passage or parapgraph to help someone find it in the Italian edition?

I would be intersted to see what the original Italian version has for hypotyposis too.

[Kirk]

It's in Day 1, "After Nones", when Aldo comments on the list of monks in the scriptorium, It's in the sentence after the list ending in 'Waldo of Hereford'. p. 73 of my hardback edition.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Excellent...now it is over to all those with an Italian edition. :)

[Simona]

The italian word is "ipotiposi", so here the translator had an easy task. It's not a common word in Italian either, but a classic rhetoric figure of speech.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

I see when you put ipotiposi into the google translator you do indeed get hypotyposis. :)

[Darcy]

I have no idea what that word really means, but does it have any connection to our current use of the word 'typo' (and perhaps a chronic typo maker?)

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

And hypo. Like kids get on red cordial or cola.

Therefore..hyperactive errors. ;D

[Kirk]

Into Day 4 now. Since I read it a long while ago and know the "mystery", the interesting aspect of the novel has become the historical setting. I've had any number of detours into Wikipedia reading about the historical characters that play a part.

The major theology points are actually interesting in that they reflect the times. The major question of Christ's poverty was important, since if held to be absolutely true then church would logically not be able to own property either (at least that was the argument). It was for this reason that Pope John was so resolutely against the Franciscans.

I am reminded of a cynical saying: "theology is the homage that sense pays to nonsense."

[Kirk]

Finished last night. I had forgotten most of the ending. Clearly this Melk Abbey is not the same Melk Abbey in Austria.

So who thinks Christ ever laughed?

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Who thinks Christ ever lived?



hahaha. Only kidding. I am only teasing you all. ;)

[Bryn]

If he lived he laughed. It's my firm belief.

[Kirk]

I'm sure Mary tickled him as a baby at least.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

yes. True. If he lived, he laughed. It has to be.

[Simona]

If he lived, he loved, so he laughed also.

[Cynthia]

Simona wrote: "The italian word is "ipotiposi", so here the translator had an easy task. It's not a common word in Italian either, but a classic rhetoric figure of speech."

Simona, my good friend who is a native Italian agreed that 'ipotiposi' or 'hypotyposis' in English is a figure of speech used in Italian literature by the author to give a detailed description of the subject, whether a person or an object, that is indifferent. The description is so detailed, it brings the character to life.

The sentence read-'The list could surely go on, and there is nothing more wonderful than a list, instrument of wonderful hypotyposis.'

Would you agree? I was curious about this word as well.

[Simona]

I agree with your description, it matches what I know. Or would I agree about a list being wonderful? I'm a slave to lists, because sometimes I've the memory of a goldfish, I make lists of lists, then I lose them and I got antsy. So my relationship with lists is too complicated to find them wonderful...;)

[Cynthia]

Simona wrote: "I agree with your description, it matches what I know. Or would I agree about a list being wonderful? I'm a slave to lists, because sometimes I've the memory of a goldfish, I make lists of lists, t..."

Anche per me! LOL I also live by the list and although they contribute to my domestic survival, I seldom find them wonderful but more laborious!! Yet, I need them. :)

[Daniel]

Cynthia wrote: "Simona wrote: "I agree with your description, it matches what I know. Or would I agree about a list being wonderful? I'm a slave to lists, because sometimes I've the memory of a goldfish, I make li..."

My wife makes fun of my listing and planning sometimes...not my fault, the military made me that way :P

[Simona]

Slaves to lists. No wonder we seek refuge in books. :)

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

My husband is a manic slave to lists too, Daniel.

I don't work with lists. I keep my lists in my head and it works for me. Hubby, he only keeps lists on paper or iPad and can't get anything done unless he has a list to check on. :)

[Darcy]

We often talk about the translator for books during group reads and I didn't see much on this topic (I've not read mine yet). I think that generally we realise it's a difficult task to turn one language's terms, sentiments and intentions and while some translations don't seem all that successful, we do appreciate the attempt.
It is therefore, a loss to the literary world that William Weaver (I didn't link because there are several and I wasn't sure which one is he) who translated this novel has departed this world.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Farewell William Weaver.

[Simona]

Darcy wrote: "It is therefore, a loss to the literary world that William Weaver (I didn't link because there are several and I wasn't sure which one is he) who translated this novel has departed this world."

And a loss it is, Darcy: I read an excerpt of his translation on Amazon and it was exceptionally good.

[Rafael]

I read this book a long time ago, so I cannot remember it well, but I remember that I've liked it. Eco surely is a scholar about the subject and he knew how to use his knowledge in a perfect way in this book. The setting, the semiotic part, all of them fitted well.

[Dawn]

Wow, this is an old thread.

I liked this book myself. It was a little dense though, there was a lot of theology. I keep meaning to try some of his other books.

[Rafael]

I am atheist, but i am too curious to avoid read a book even if it have religious plot or religious characters, sure, if it is well written. I have liked the theology too. Religion is a important feature of that time.