Ancient & Medieval Historical Fiction discussion
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The Name of the Rose
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OCTOBER 2013 (Group Read 2) The Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco
Eileen wrote: "Terri wrote: "I am still enjoying the book. When it doesn't bog down in religious talk. It isn't taking up so much of the book that i would 3 star it. I am sitting comfortably on a 4 star in my hea..."The rating in my head has slipped back to three star. That tedium you speak of is really wearing on me.
What a relief. I just checked the GR reviews on the book and there are a lot more 3 star and under than I thought. That makes me feel less alone in my opinion of the book.I have gone from loving it in the first 30 pages, to unsure about it up to about halfway due to all the ramblng, to only enjoying it as there became more story and less rambling, to not liking it at all as the story gave way to rambling again.
As I try to push on this morning I am sitting between 2 star and 3. I want to be true to myself and give it 2, but out of respect, because the writing is better quality than books I usually give 2 stars to, I am going to be giving it 2 1/2 of my personal stars (on my blog) and marking it 3 GR stars.
I am not even sure I can finish the last 90 pages. But I shall try.
Terri wrote: "What a relief. I just checked the GR reviews on the book and there are a lot more 3 star and under than I thought. That makes me feel less alone in my opinion of the book..."I'd be a three-star or perhaps a two. I felt let down, and was often bored. By the story itself, not just the ramblings. I was even interested in these heresies (outside the book) yet failed to find the interest here. I was sort of anti-Aristotle, though, so that didn't help...
That's one thing I will touch on in my review. That if you take away the needless verbosity the mystery that is left, I felt, was pretty boring and simple.NB to those who love the book* I mean no disrespect to those that love the book. It is just a case of different strokes for different folks.
For my part, I don't like mysteries, and when I've tried to read mysteries for the sake of the setting or other factors, it's been a dismal failure for me. This one reminds me of My Name is Red where the murder mystery was weak and the point of the book lies elsewhere, in ramblings about Ottoman art.
That's a pity. It sounds good otherwise.I have an aversion to mysteries set amoung monks and nuns due to my dislike of getting too up close and personal with religion. It irritates me and repels me at the best of times. The Name of the Rose is like a nightmare come true for me. A whole book choc-a-block with religion and theology. It was never going to be a good marriage between us.
Terri wrote: "What a relief. I just checked the GR reviews on the book and there are a lot more 3 star and under than I thought. That makes me feel less alone in my opinion of the book.I have gone from loving i..."
For me, the writing is the key to a decent rating. Good writing will get me past historical inaccuracies and made up stuff. I recently finished
The Physician which had all sorts of great reviews. I had seen the book around for years, but only picked it up because it was on sale on kindle. So I read it, and the writing was good, a bit above average, and the author could tell a decent story, but the history was so wrong, from beginning to end. How anyone could write historical fiction with as many anachronisms as he had is beyond me. But, the good writing pulled me through. I gave it a 3 star rating. I doubt that I would ever bother to pick up another of his books, but at least I finished it.
Usually good writing will pull me towards a higher rating also...and yet I am leaning more and more towards 2 stars as I try and make myself get to the ending.I feel a 2 star rating is probably truer to my feelings on the book.
I think this time I appreciate so little, in fact nothing, about the story that the 2 stars ARE for the writing. lol.
For me the story deserves none. (sorry again to those who love the book. I know some people get offended when much loved books are not liked by someone).
Anastasia wrote: "Is anyone behind in their reading? I've only just begun (as in first ten pages), but so far I'm impressed. More from me soon!"I have tried to get into this book about 5 times, and not yet succeeded... time to give up, I think.
Bryn wrote: "For my part, I don't like mysteries, and when I've tried to read mysteries for the sake of the setting or other factors, it's been a dismal failure for me. This one reminds me of My Name is Red whe..."I like mysteries to some extent but I agree with you about My Name is Red. I thought it would be kind of like Rashomon, the movie, in how it started out, but it was a big disappointment.
I remember loving this book years ago, I wonder how I will feel about it now.
I'm finding out, for the most part: You can't go home again...
I made the decision not to read this book even though I was sure my library would have it. I saw the movie years ago and it was so depressing, so bleak that I hated it even though one of my favorite actors, Sean Connery was in it. I just had no desire to wade through the book.
Daniel wrote: "I remember loving this book years ago, I wonder how I will feel about it now."Don't try. :)
Not that you won't love it again of course, I just find that in many cases it is best to leave sleeping dogs lie.
On the few occasions I have reread a book I once really liked I have ruined my memory by not liking it the second time around.
Best to hold on to the memories and not risk it.
Terri wrote: "Daniel wrote: "I remember loving this book years ago, I wonder how I will feel about it now."
Don't try. :)
Not that you won't love it again of course, I just find that in many cases it is best to..."
I think I'm going to follow that advice myself.
Don't try. :)
Not that you won't love it again of course, I just find that in many cases it is best to..."
I think I'm going to follow that advice myself.
That's what I'm finding out rereading things I read years ago. Tastes change. "You can't go home again."
There it is...You can't go home again.
Now. I have written my review, but I must warn those who are reading it and unsure, reading it and enjoying it or going to read it and hoping to enjoy it.. do not read my review.It is a two star review and I don't want my negative thoughts about the book to put you off.
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
When this book first came out, I read it and loved it. It also made quite a sensation in the book world. However, in my rereading, I'm struggling with it as well. It seems mired down in establishing the schools of thought that governed this medieval time, even though it does contribute to the dynamic of the plot. I thinking that the writing style has changed quite a bit over the last twenty years in favor of a faster and more concise style of prose. It's no secret that writers are (especially first time novelists) advised to range their work between 80-110 thousand words. In the past, it was more acceptable to write longer works for publication. Printing costs do figure in this as well, but people seem to want faster reads. I hear this often from friends and colleagues. Someone mentioned 'tastes change.' Tastes and times, I think. :)
message 121:
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Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd
(last edited Oct 10, 2013 10:25PM)
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rated it 2 stars
I can completely see where you are coming from there. People do seem to want faster reads with less words.In saying that, this wasn't a very long book and I think we are all quite accustomed to long, plodding reads as well as fast, quick paced reads, aren't we? Accomplished readers that we are. :)
It depends on mood which we read.
Faster paced wasn't my issue though. I have no problem at all with wallowing in a slow feast of a book. Plodding along and languishing in prose. I did not think this was a slow feast of a book though. And oddly, I didn't think his prose was that terrific either.
There are thousands of Classics, modern and historical, that make this book look poorly.
I compare it to many longer books and prose works in the Classics genre and so many of these authors know how to string together a long winding work.
Eco seemed to not commit to a long winding work here. It was as if he wrote a weak mystery first...got that all sorted...and then went back over it picking out the areas where he could explode his knowledge across the page.
I did not find it very technically exquisite. I expected it would be.
But as we say in here, everyone reads differently.
Those who love it are right, those that don't like it are right, those that thought it was 'okay' are right.
It is what it is to the individual.
Thank you, Terri! That's encouraging!Terri wrote: "Anastasia wrote: "Is anyone behind in their reading? I've only just begun (as in first ten pages), but so far I'm impressed. More from me soon!"
Hi Anastasia,
There are members on our other grou..."
I can't yet say I would read it twice, but for a first read, I'm enjoying it. He's verbose, yes, but pleasant, and I've learned a new word I look forward to using in conversation: marginalia. I laughed out loud when I read it. :D
Another thought: Translation also contributes a lot to the style of a work. In college, I had to examine several different translations of Dante's Inferno. All I can say is that because of my knowledge of Italian, some lines from one translation were expressed more accurately, while another translation was more poetically true to the original. Then there was the one that seemed to come closest to the tone and mood of the original. However, I agree, how we respond to a work depends on the perception of the reader. I have no problem with longer books either, especially when they captivate me. :)
Good job sticking with it till the end, Terri! It's hard to carry through with a book that isn't doing it for you. Props! :)
Well, I'm finished rereading the book and I still love it. I won't say it isn't a difficult book - it is, but maybe I've the advantage to read it in the original version, and plus, I actually prefer Historical Mysteries to the HF part that concentrate on battles and sieges.Also, this book is set in Italy, so I'm familiar to the History of the place and the huge impact of religion on it.
I didn't reread this one, I read it years ago and I rated it 5stars when I came across on here. I have memories of really enjoying it, maybe a reread is in order as my reading tastes have changed.
Really enjoyed reading everyone's comments and reviews.j
Kyle wrote: "Good job sticking with it till the end, Terri! It's hard to carry through with a book that isn't doing it for you. Props! :)"I felt I owed it to you guys. Out of respect for your feelings towards the book. :)
message 129:
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Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd
(last edited Oct 12, 2013 03:24PM)
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rated it 2 stars
Simona wrote: "I actually prefer Historical Mysteries to the HF part that concentrate on battles and sieges.."Is this for me? I don't prefer books with battles and sieges.
The reason I didn't like the book isn't because it didn't include battles and sieges. A battle powerfully written may stir me, but I don't actually like battles. They bore me. I also like historical mysteries (the C.J. Sansom series being one of my favourite series'). I just don't like monk or nun mysteries.
I keep saying I don't like battles and blood and gore.....people tend not to listen...:\ Not sure why.
Simona wrote: Also, this book is set in Italy, so I'm familiar to the History of the place and the huge impact of religion on it.
Your from Bologna aren't you Simona? I noticed Umberto Eco is a Professor on your home turf too.
No, I think that's more for me -- I confessed I never get along with mysteries, as such. However, I am often bored stiff by battles, likewise.
And I have exceptions. I can certainly stand Sherlock Holmes :), and I liked the 'other parts' of C.J. Sansom's enough to go on with those.
message 132:
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Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd
(last edited Oct 12, 2013 03:58PM)
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rated it 2 stars
I am fairly sure it is me. I often get told I don't 'get' a book because it doesn't have battles in it. Even though I don't like battles and when i read something with battles in it I do skim read a lot of the battle.I like to think I am consistent. :)
If I am going to bother myself with reading theologically themed books I won't do it with a fiction. I will do it with a non fiction.
For example. I was thinking, after I wrote my review, that In the Name of the Rose reminded me of a non fiction that i also found did some over intellectualising and bogged down with theology.
What It is Like to Go to War
However, I gave it 4 stars out of 5 because the theology, philosophy encompassed more than only Catholicism. It encompassed non Catholic fields, ie Buddhism.
It also encompassed pscyho analytical realms through Jungianism.
But, like The Name of the Rose, too much talk of religion and the pang of over intellectualising did bother me. It had so much more going for it though and that's why What It Is Like To Go To War got 4 stars from me and Name of the Rose got 2.
I think I can most easily define my hf likes by what I'm not into. NOT romance, NOT military interest, and not mysteries either, though a mystery is the least offensive of these to me. I like when intellectual novels use a popular genre -- as Name of the Rose and My Name is Red both use the murder mystery. I love that in fact, except I want them to pay attention to the execution, I want them to not use and abuse that popular genre but respect it and give us a strong example. It goes wrong for me when the popular part is tacked on. With My Name is Red I thought (and not me alone) 'he can't write a mystery for his life' so that was almost an insult to the genre. Here am I talking about the wrong book, because I can't remember Name of the Rose enough, sorry.
message 134:
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Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd
(last edited Oct 12, 2013 04:54PM)
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rated it 2 stars
I can do that too. NOT romance. NOT human melodrama. NOT d#ck lit (a lot of battle and gore fall under this one). NOT Chick lit hist fic. NO monk or nun settings. NO ocean settings (ie nautical/navy books). NO fantasy hist fic (unless it is fully committed to being a fantasy).I'll try pretty much anything else and I will read out of my comfort zone if it is a group read. As what has happened with name of the Rose (monk setting).
What I read depends on my mood--mostly histfic and that mostly Roman Empire, but early locations up to and including Renaissance, with maybe a few in later times. I like what could be called set in 'exotic locations.' If something looks interesting in another genre, I'll give it a go. I don't like pure romance, 'chick lit', urban fantasy, alternate history or science fiction, as a rule.
message 136:
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Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd
(last edited Oct 12, 2013 07:46PM)
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rated it 2 stars
Genres overall I definitely have my preferred genres. Which are non fiction military, non fiction natural world, non fiction history. (and cookbooks..:)..)In fiction I will read modern crime thrillers and hist fic over most genres, but I do read fantasy and horror. I just haven't had time in my life for horror and fantasy.
In hist fic I prefer it 'pre gun'. Have read a couple English Civil War and enjoyed them so I am not totally against anything post gun. I only prefer pre gun.
Hey, Terri, that's a great description--'pre-gun'!!I led off with Bildungsroman, you've given us another word for 2013! :)
So far, I like the book. I find Church history fascinating, even though painful at times. That's why you rather stun me, Terri. If I did not enjoy Church history, I absolutely could not get through the book. Kudos to you! But I find the descriptions amazing, the Latin beautiful and not overbearing, and I like the chatty style. It's cozy.
Definitely a book for those interested in Catholicism in middle ages Italy. Mind you, I loved it at first, then the novelty started to wear off for me. I enjoyed it off and on until just under halfway. Then it was dislike to the end. lol. :)
Glad you are liking it though. Pleased my opinion of it has not ruined your experience.
I'm sorry guys, it wasn't "for" anyone. Just an observation, there are lots of books that I've been able to find here that could fit my very rough description. I, however, am partial to historical mystery, which I'm sure it's perfectly fine to everybody.I'm actually from Como, which is in Lombardy; but somehow the spider-sense of Terri has been able to discover that my paternal grandfather was from Bologna!
Bryn wrote: "With My Name is Red I thought (and not me alone) 'he can't write a mystery for his life' so that was almost an insult to the genre. Here am I talking about the wrong book, because I can't remember Name of the Rose enough, sorry. "And I haven't been able to really finish My Name is Red.I skipped madly all the last part, and I don't remember the book very well either.
My historical tastes can take in all eras, but I prefer 'pre-gun' myself, but I look for a strong plot to surround sound historical facts. I don't mind a battle if it isn't 10 or more pages long, romance and sex if it seems natural to the plot (I once had a person critiquing a scene in my novel ask me, "Do barbarians kiss?" I responded, "Yes, and they have sex too!") LOL I do enjoy a historical mystery with plenty of intrigue and most of all a twist. Of late, I'm curious about the alternate history genre. I also like non-fiction, biographies, spiritual and religious works and cookbooks. I recently purchased a 'Cupcakes' book and made my first chocolate ganache.
Cynthia wrote: " I recently purchased a 'Cupcakes' book and made my first chocolate ganache. ..."I must have missed my tasting invitation!
Cynthia wrote: ""Do barbarians kiss?" I responded, "Yes, and they have sex too!"..."Wow. What a question.
Simona wrote: "Cynthia wrote: " I recently purchased a 'Cupcakes' book and made my first chocolate ganache. ..."I must have missed my tasting invitation!"
I will invite you the next time. I'm working on a peanut butter frosting on top a chocolate cake with a chocolate candy kiss inside. Delizioso!!
Terri wrote: "Cynthia wrote: ""Do barbarians kiss?" I responded, "Yes, and they have sex too!"..."Wow. What a question."
I was somewhat baffled as well. Sexual interaction keeps humans reproducing, but also connecting (no pun intended) on many levels, whether primitive or sublime.
Terri wrote: "Cynthia wrote: ""Do barbarians kiss?" I responded, "Yes, and they have sex too!"..."Wow. What a question."
No kidding! I think it would certainly surprise all the people who can claim they are descendants of Ghengis Khan.
Darcy wrote: "Terri wrote: "Cynthia wrote: ""Do barbarians kiss?" I responded, "Yes, and they have sex too!"..."Wow. What a question."
No kidding! I think it would certainly surprise all the people who can cl..."
LOL Absolutely!
started again this weekend, and so far it is as fine as I remember.
I read this a few years back and remember loving it. it had great atmosphere and character development. also loved descriptions of the whole abbey place and the library, hidden corridors and caverns. deliciously creepy:)
Ancient & Medieval Historical Fiction
Books mentioned in this topic
What It is Like to Go to War (other topics)My Name Is Red (other topics)
Rashomon (other topics)
The Physician (other topics)
My Name Is Red (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Rosemary Simpson (other topics)Umberto Eco (other topics)
Hi Anastasia,
There are members on our other group read (the Ancient group read) who'll be coming over to this one when they are finished. So you'll have the company of more than just me. :-)