Sense and Sensibility
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Confused about Marianne and Willoughby
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May 23, 2009 07:55PM
Definitely not. That would have been insanely scandalous back then. She wouldn't have gotten published.
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In those days, it was considered highly improper for a young woman to wander around alone with a man who was not her relative. It was also considered rude for Willoughby to bring a stranger into his aunt's house while the aunt was in residence.
I think that episode in Willoughby's aunt's house adds to the ongoing mystery throughout the novel as to whether or not Marianne and Willoughby are engaged. Not even Marianne's family knew for certain until near the end of the book.
I saw an adaptation of "Northanger Abbey" recently in which Isabella and Captain Tilney sleep together. I think that's reading a LOT into it. As if their behavior wasn't bad enough to stand on its own.
Sometimes it's hard for the modern reader to comprehend the scandal in 19th century terms so they add modern (or almost modern) interpretations.I understand because I still don't really "get" the problem with theater in Mansfield Park. That is, I know what the problem is but it's alien to me.
(Which is why I want to write my version of MP with gender bending and polyandry, but that's probably a different discussion group.)
I agree with BunWat explanation.I would also add that if they had slept together Marianne would have been completely ruined,an outcast from good society with no prospect of marrying at all. This is what happened to Colonel Brandon's ward, Eliza Williams, seduced at fifteen by Willoghby.
I too think that they haven't slept together.. it would be scandalous.. However, I don't think that anybody can ever be aware of that.. it could be a mystery and Jane Austen might have wanted it to appear like that.. I am not sure.. I am just speculating!!!:-)
willaful wrote: "I saw an adaptation of "Northanger Abbey" recently in which Isabella and Captain Tilney sleep together. I think that's reading a LOT into it. As if their behavior wasn't bad enough to stand on its ..."I think I have seen the same adaptation and honestly I was shocked because i did not believe that people would that back then especially when in Austen's books they don't even kiss!
willaful wrote: "I saw an adaptation of "Northanger Abbey" recently in which Isabella and Captain Tilney sleep together. I think that's reading a LOT into it. As if their behavior wasn't bad enough to stand on its ..."I agree. A recent version of "Mansfield Park" had Maria and Henry Crawford's burnished bodies in bed together which I found quite shocking. On the other hand, Austen did have them running off together,so the implication was there. But these days you've got to jazz it up!
Austen has a great deal of implied sex in her novels--Lydia lives with Wickham, Maria with Henry, and then there's Willoughby seducing Colonel Brandon's fifteen-year-old ward. However, none of that is shown.
People are correct that they did not sleep together (Marianne would have been ruined) but they were alone, which could have ruined her. There is also the indelicacy in being shown over a house that he would inherit when the owner is still alive. That was very bad manners on Willoughby's part, and Austen's readers would have instantly recognized it. Eleanor does say something about this to Marianne, who recognizes that it was a faux pas.
If Willoughby and Marianne have slept together then how his behaviour towards Marianne would have been misinterpreted? I mean, in his response to all her letters he says something about being sorry if he had given the wrong impression and that he did not mean it.. If they have slept together could he have written a response like that? His behaviour could have hardly been misinterpreted..
Oh, how true, but how often does it happen?? Dickens' "Bleak House" is still so relevant today, unfortunately!
What about Bleak House are you alluding to, Robyn?
what movie adaptations are you talking about(willaful and Robyn)?
This is an old topic, but...Robin asked: What about Bleak House are you alluding to, Robyn?
In Bleak House, there's this endless lawsuit over a family inheritance that has been going on for literally generations. And there's this one character who faithfully believes that the suit will be decided, and in his favor, in no time at all. He is forced to go out and find work (I think he's in the military?) but he never commits to it because he just knows he will eventually be rescued by this money. I will not spoil what happens to this character.
It's a great correspondence with Willoughby, who just sort of traipses about the countryside, making plans and counting his money before it's come in. It's worth remembering that he does intend to marry Marianne, he just is not able to when his aunt cuts him out of the will for impregnating poor Brandon's ward. He marries the other woman instead just because she has money.
It was quite daring to portray an unmarried couple being alone unchaperoned. That would have been scandal enough, as others have said.
Austen is not above writing about pre/extra marital sex (though not explicitly, of course) Lydia and Wickham, Colonel Brandon's (for lack of a better word) "ward", Miss Smith in Emma is alluded to being a bastard.
Liana wrote: "I am confused about what happened when Willoughby showed Marianne his house. Did they actually sleep together? I am reading the book now and my impression was that he just showed her the house an..."They didn't sleep together. Being in his house by herself was horrible enough in those days. :)
Shanna wrote: "Austen is not above writing about pre/extra marital sex (though not explicitly, of course) Lydia and Wickham, Colonel Brandon's (for lack of a better word) "ward", Miss Smith in Emma is alluded to ..."Very true. :)
Lauren wrote: "Liana wrote: "I am confused about what happened when Willoughby showed Marianne his house. Did they actually sleep together? I am reading the book now and my impression was that he just showed he..."I am not at all convinced we can assume that. The fact that it is Colonel Brandon who marries her is telling in my opinion. We see in the book that he is very empathetic to his niece Eliza's plight and does not blame her for it. He blames Willoughby. He would have been privy to Willougby's character and less likely to judge Marianne for her reckless behavior. There may have been no sexual relations between Marianne and Willoughby, but I do not think we can state with absolute certainty that there was not.
Beth wrote: "Sometimes it's hard for the modern reader to comprehend the scandal in 19th century terms so they add modern (or almost modern) interpretations.I understand because I still don't really "get" the..."
The theater episode in Mansfield Park was scandalous because acting was not considered a respectable profession for young ladies at that time. I think the content of the play was pretty iffy.
BunWat wrote: "No they did not sleep together. As Beth says, the impropriety is that they went off alone without any chaperone when they are neither related nor engaged to be married. Also, showing her his hous..."very good. you put it perfectly.
BunWat wrote: "No they did not sleep together. As Beth says, the impropriety is that they went off alone without any chaperone when they are neither related nor engaged to be married. Also, showing her his hous..."I also think that was a wonderfully expressed post- perfectly explained, well done. :)
Beth wrote: "Austen has a great deal of implied sex in her novels--Lydia lives with Wickham, Maria with Henry, and then there's Willoughby seducing Colonel Brandon's fifteen-year-old ward. However, none of that..."I think it's important to note all the examples above, and realize that in Austen, when she DOES have implicit sex taking place, the woman is pretty much forever ruined/never seen again (except Lydia because Darcy saves her in getting Wickham to marry her).
So with all that in mind, I think it really unlikely that anything happened physically with Marianne and Willoughby at his house; Beth above hit the nail on the head with saying it was extremely improper (because it COULD imply sex) for a young single woman and young single man to be wandering alone, in a house, together, and for him to take her there while his aunt, who she hasn't been introduced to, is there, which is rude.
Interesting to compare what was considered to be shocking then with what is shocking today. Today a man who abducted and seduced a 15 year old girl, got her pregnant and abandoned her would probably be facing a criminal trial. Willoughby suffers nothing worse than a reputation for dissipation and having to fight a duel with Brandon, in which neither of them is injured. Poor Eliza is the one who suffers all the consequences of his actions, and Jane Austen doesn't appear to see any great injustice in this.
Gentlemen like Willoughby enjoyed a position that protected them. Men could walk away from their mistakes. I also received the impression that Brandon's ward was of lower social standing. Austen wrote in the context of a society in which class distinction was accepted.
I think they didn't sleep together, but some facts in Austen's books are really confusing. I never know when a woman is pregnant, until suddenly the baby is born. For a modern reader, there is so much to infer.
Camila wrote: "I think they didn't sleep together, but some facts in Austen's books are really confusing. I never know when a woman is pregnant, until suddenly the baby is born. For a modern reader, there is so m..."I agree with this. There is so much subtlety regarding pregnancy in classic novels. I never understood why it had to be a mystery that a woman was pregnant. I guess because it indirectly refers to sex?
Beth wrote: "In those days, it was considered highly improper for a young woman to wander around alone with a man who was not her relative. It was also considered rude for Willoughby to bring a stranger into hi..."This is the perfect answer. They didn't sleep together, but their behavior was inappropriate. But, they didn't care. And everything would have been fine had they eventually married, but Willoughby needed money. Don't we all. :)
I'm still confused because of a certain statement which Mrs Jennings states to Elinor after Willoughby strands Marianne. She says "Well it don't signify talking, but when a young man comes and makes love to a pretty girl and promises marriage, he has no business to fly off....."
Malindi wrote: "I'm still confused because of a certain statement which Mrs Jennings states to Elinor after Willoughby strands Marianne. She says "Well it don't signify talking, but when a young man comes and make..."We shouldn't be confused by the modern interpretation of Mrs Jennings phrase. I believe that by "making love" she meant that Willoughby had promised his love and affection to Marianne, but did not stand by his promise.
Despina wrote: "Malindi wrote: "I'm still confused because of a certain statement which Mrs Jennings states to Elinor after Willoughby strands Marianne. She says "Well it don't signify talking, but when a young ma..."oh thankyou for making things clear
Gentlemen like Willoughby enjoyed a position that protected them. Men could walk away from their mistakes.Picking up an old point, but I don't think men like Willoughby and Wickham got away with it entirely. They weren't trusted, they'd be cut off from all sorts of opportunities - visiting houses like Pemberley, possibly being offered a good position, the hope of making a good marriage, if they weren't already married. Whereas Georgiana Darcy's reputation doesn't seem to have been damaged.
Re: pregnancy, I don't think it's made a mystery, think it's sometimes just differences in terminology. I can't recall exactly how JA said that Charlotte Collins was pregnant, but as I recall it was an expression that people at the time would have understood.
People still had sex out of wedlock back then, though. I don't believe Marianne and Willoughby did, but if she kept it a secret and didn't get pregnant, nothing bad would have happened to her.But for young girls like Marianne and Lydia, the fact that they'd been alone with a man of dubious reputation, in a situation where they might have had sex, could be almost as damaging. At the very least, it showed them to be very foolish and lacking a sense of propriety. Penniless young women who needed to marry for financial security couldn't afford to have any scandal attached to them.
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