Debate discussion
Non-debating discussions (SA)
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WHY ARE GUYS SUCH JERKS?
You can think and assume whatever you want Davis. I don't mind. But saying what you say isn't going to change my mind on anything and the way you act and treat me if only keeping me far away from becoming a democrat.
"You can think and assume whatever you want Davis. I don't mind. But saying what you say isn't going to change my mind on anything and the way you act and treat me if only keeping me far away from becoming a democrat."That is quuuite alright with me, young woman. In the end, you'll be the one who lived the empty selfish existence, not me.
Why do you always assume, Davis?Yes, I'm going to be selfish because I'm a libertarian. Why do you think I'm going to live a selfish existance? And why do you think it will be empty? Specify.
Mod
Whoa empty selfish existence is kinda harsh...
"Whoa empty selfish existence is kinda harsh..."That's what being a republican/conservative/libertarian is. Helping out yourself over everyone else, listening to other close minded individuals, harming humanity on purpose, etc.
"Why do you think I'm going to live a selfish existance? And why do you think it will be empty? Specify."
You will be selfish because you care about yourself first. You believe we shouldn't have welfare those who need, we shouldn't have health care for those who need, that the rich should get tax cuts, all very very very very selfish things. Your life will be empty precisely because it's selfish. Any life spent only to make that life great is empty because it is your contribution to humanity that makes you who you are.
"That's what being a republican/conservative/libertarian is. Helping out yourself over everyone else, listening to other close minded individuals, harming humanity on purpose, etc."You make me laugh so hard sometimes, Davis xD You realize that I could say the EXACT same thing about your party? But it's not the party that's selfish and greedy, it's the people in the party. Not all conservatives are selfish. I admit that some are. Hell, I can be selfish. But everyone can be, that would include you, the President, ANYONE. So putting that on one party is absolutely ridiculous and prejudice.
"You will be selfish because you care about yourself first. You believe we shouldn't have welfare those who need, we shouldn't have health care for those who need, that the rich should get tax cuts, all very very very very selfish things. Your life will be empty precisely because it's selfish. Any life spent only to make that life great is empty because it is your contribution to humanity that makes you who you are."
Yes, I care about myself. Who doesn't care about themselves? I'm the only one who can control myself, and that's how it is with every single person, so why not care about me? You can be the same way and until you admit that you're just in denial.
I never said that I don't believe that people who need welfare shouldn't have it. I said that those who need it and are actually trying to get out of it, working to make themselves better should be allowed to have it. Those who need it can get it, but the government doesn't enforce getting out of it. I think that those who need it should be allowed to have it, but shouldn't be able to just sit around on their butts all day because the government is giving them everything that they could ever need and isn't trying to get them to work hard for what they want.
I never said that those who need healthcare shouldn't have it. I absolutely think that those who need it should have it. But those who are healthy and have no use for it because they rarely go to the doctor shouldn't be clogging up the system. Those people can afford a doctor visit every once in a while, where as other people, families like mine who have to go to the doctor every week or month need healthcare so that we can actually afford it. THOSE people deserve healthcare, not the ones who don't need it.
Yes, the rich should get tax cuts, just like everyone else. Taxing the rich won't solve anything, it'll only make things worse.
I give to charity, I try to help when I can. So I'm selfish? I try not to be. But I am when I want to be, and there shouldn't be anything wrong with that. If I worked hard for the money and earned it myself and I decide to go on vacation instead of giving most of it to charity then I should be allowed to. You believe in freedoms? The rich should have the freedom to spend their money however they please and not be forced to give a great majority to the government who is going to use that money for nothing of benefit anyway.
Besides, I don't think that those who are selfish have empty lives. I just don't think their lives are full.
:)
Davis wrote: ""I don't have to surround my life and drown myself in politics daily to be sensible and have an opinion of my own."No but to claim any right to superiority, you do."
im srry i dont want to bring back to this but superiority in wat exactly because superiority in life? (as in having a good life making a difference blablablabla and the other crap) i have to disagree there.... in debate or in a political job you're right
"So putting that on one party is absolutely ridiculous and prejudice."No, I'm saying the policy of your party is very selfish. It is geared towards the individual vs. the group and technically argues that the more money someone has, the better they are. Anyone can be selfish, of course, but a form of government should work for the best of ALL people.
"Yes, I care about myself. Who doesn't care about themselves?"
You are quite obviously missing the point. The point is that yes, you can care about yourself, but what will you matter if you don't help others out?
"I'm the only one who can control myself, and that's how it is with every single person, so why not care about me?"
You can care about you, but also care about others as well. If no one cared about anyone but themselves, we would still have slaves and women wouldn't have the right to vote. People have to rise above their individual selves and work for the Greater Good for society to function.
"You can be the same way and until you admit that you're just in denial."
I'm not quite sure what you mean by that.
"I said that those who need it and are actually trying to get out of it, working to make themselves better should be allowed to have it."
Something like that can't be really measured though. You can't test resolve, personal desire. Sometimes getting a job just isn't possible for everyone and I believe everyone who needs should get welfare, those who apply and meet the standards that were put in place by LBJ and later strengthened by Clinton.
"hose who need it can get it, but the government doesn't enforce getting out of it."
Yes, yes they do. Otherwise Rush Limbaugh would still be receiving his Welfare checks hahaha. But no, seriously, it is obviously enforced by the government, otherwise the system couldn't afford to keep progressing.
"I think that those who need it should be allowed to have it, but shouldn't be able to just sit around on their butts all day because the government is giving them everything that they could ever need and isn't trying to get them to work hard for what they want."
I'm actually not going to get mad about this, because it is a common misconception that being on Welfare means your every need is met. Oftentimes an individual will have a low paying job and draw welfare at the same time, just to live day by day. Very few able bodied individuals are able to live on government checks alone.
Further reasoning explained here:
http://www.goodreads.com/story/show/4...
"I never said that those who need healthcare shouldn't have it"
You have argued against universal healthcare in every single conversation.
"I absolutely think that those who need it should have it."
The problem is that those who need it aren't always able to get it.
Just one story:
http://www.rescuehealthcareday.com/Gi...
"But those who are healthy and have no use for it because they rarely go to the doctor shouldn't be clogging up the system."
This isn't really a huge problem to my knowledge. And actually according to the capitalist system in which our healthcare functions, it's good for business for people to come in more often.
"Those people can afford a doctor visit every once in a while, where as other people, families like mine who have to go to the doctor every week or month need healthcare so that we can actually afford it. THOSE people deserve healthcare, not the ones who don't need it."
I'm not quite sure what your actually arguing? My argument is that those who don't want to pay a little bit more in taxes to support universal health care to help at the very minimum, the 40 million uninsured Americans, are incredibly selfish and short sighted.
"Yes, the rich should get tax cuts, just like everyone else."
Not everyone gets tax cuts. And do you really think our country could function without taxes? Do you like driving on roads? Or would you like that to be privatized as well? What about sidewalks and bridges? Or prisons? Should these be privatized?
"Taxing the rich won't solve anything, it'll only make things worse."
Every economist in the world worth his salt disagrees with this position. My cousin is getting doctorate in Economics and he is conservative in every position besides economics because he has seen, mathematically and fiscally, that taxing and redistribution of large amounts of funds benefits a country.
"I give to charity, I try to help when I can. So I'm selfish? I try not to be."
That is awesome that you give to charity, it really is. I applaud you. The problem is, that alot of charities aren't very far reaching. And I can't really think of a better institution than the Federal Government to know enough about people and their situations to benefit the people and their specific needs. They have the most data, most communication, and most analysis of any possible charity.
"But I am when I want to be, and there shouldn't be anything wrong with that."
I won't argue with that either. An individual is a success if they wake up in the morning and go to bed and in between does what makes them happy. However, I will say this; a through examination of one's self, their behaviors, their motives and consequences of one's actions is never a bad thing.
"If I worked hard for the money and earned it myself and I decide to go on vacation instead of giving most of it to charity then I should be allowed to."
Oh absolutely. The problem becomes when people think that adding a few more dollars to their taxes means that they being personally attacked.
However, I will say this; I would rather have a family of poor inner city children receive needed medical care than go on a cruise for the same amount of money. Some things just mean more than others.
"You believe in freedoms? The rich should have the freedom to spend their money however they please"
They are. They just get a certain amount taxed from them. I don't think I would complain if I was making a million dollars a year but only could spend 750,000. In fact, I'd rather have that then live in the middle of Chicago, work at a McDonald's and struggle through an existence that most people cannot fathom.
"not be forced to give a great majority to the government who is going to use that money for nothing of benefit anyway."
Your right, schools, the postal service, roads, economic stimulus, medicaid and medicare, all these things are of no benefit. And don't forget your party's precious weaponry!! American tax dollars at work right there.
"Besides, I don't think that those who are selfish have empty lives. I just don't think their lives are full."
If one's highest purpose in one's life is to benefit themselves, I would consider that pretty empty.
"im srry i dont want to bring back to this but superiority in wat exactly because superiority in life? (as in having a good life making a difference blablablabla and the other crap) i have to disagree there.... in debate or in a political job you're right"
I meant the superiority of opinion.
I must say I think that is a record for a davis length post :PAnd you two need to seriously calm down....k? Sounds good :D
"I must say I think that is a record for a davis length post"I think one of the Socialized Medicine ones was longer.
Really? IDK, this gives it a run for its money at least.
Kyle wrote: "Really? IDK, this gives it a run for its money at least. "Well, I can't let Jayda even have one point correct. She represents all I disdain, all that is wrong with America, it's youth, it's people in general. The fact that there are people like her out there scares me a bit. We're so close to progressing in so many ways and people like Jayda consistently hold us back.
"No, I'm saying the policy of your party is very selfish. It is geared towards the individual vs. the group and technically argues that the more money someone has, the better they are. Anyone can be selfish, of course, but a form of government should work for the best of ALL people.Ultimately it depends on how you define selfish. Where some of my party think that our policies are completely unselfish and that yours are, others think that it is selfish, as you do. I don't think that we argue the more money one has the better they are, I think that we argue that if you have the money than great, give to charity, but you shouldn't be forced to give more than others.
"The point is that yes, you can care about yourself, but what will you matter if you don't help others out?"
Who's to say that I/we/they won't help others out?
"People have to rise above their individual selves and work for the Greater Good for society to function."
And I agree with that. Our party doesn't focus on just ourselves, it focuses on the well being of others just as much as you believe your party does. See, this is where your arguments of "I'm right, your wrong" bug me. Of course you think you're right - everyone thinks they're right! I do, you do, Kyle does, Sara does, etcetera. That doesn't mean that we are, that doesn't mean that our ideas are what's right for this country in this time and day, especially compared to other countries. You can fight all you want about this, but I still stand by that - we all think that we're right, even if we aren't.
"I'm not quite sure what you mean by that."
I meant that you can be selfish, just as anyone else, and until you admit that (if you haven't) to yourself than you're just in denial.
"Something like that can't be really measured though. You can't test resolve, personal desire. Sometimes getting a job just isn't possible for everyone and I believe everyone who needs should get welfare, those who apply and meet the standards that were put in place by LBJ and later strengthened by Clinton."
I wasn't saying test resolve and personal desire. I was saying test going out and trying your very best at getting a job, even if you have to go to five interviews a day, even if you have to walk there, because if you need it you should have to work for it to the best that you can. once you can't do anymore then you should be helped, but even still you should be working on yourself and making yourself better. I think that those who get welfare should be monitored for job interviews, work done, etcetera. Right now I think all you have to do is go on three interviews either every week or month. They don't monitor it correctly. All you have to do is send them the information and then you're done for that time. You could've done terribly, or decided not to take the job and they wouldn't know because they aren't handling it properly. That is what I mean.
"Yes, yes they do. Otherwise Rush Limbaugh would still be receiving his Welfare checks hahaha. But no, seriously, it is obviously enforced by the government, otherwise the system couldn't afford to keep progressing."
I'm pretty sure that he worked his way out of welfare. I'll have to look that up. Besides that, I know people who have been on welfare for YEARS and nothing's changed. They haven't been told to go out and get a job and get off of welfare, they haven't been told that they need to earn their own money, and they're the kind of people who decide that unless they're told they won't do it. So obviously the system isn't as perfect as you think it is.
"I'm actually not going to get mad about this, because it is a common misconception that being on Welfare means your every need is met. Oftentimes an individual will have a low paying job and draw welfare at the same time, just to live day by day. Very few able bodied individuals are able to live on government checks alone."
Government housing, free food, free bus transportation, free cell phones now. It seems to me that a lot of needs are met, even ones that aren't need (cell phones - people lived without them for YEARS... I think that if you can't afford them you shouldn't waste American tax money on them). I'm not denying that some people are working hard to get out of it. But if you talk to someone on welfare, often times they'll say that it is hard to get up and get out of it because they don't have to. I actually spoke to someone like that and he said that it's the same with everyone else he knows like that. But he still got out, which also shows that one can work hard enough to get out of that kind of situaton.
"This isn't really a huge problem to my knowledge. And actually according to the capitalist system in which our healthcare functions, it's good for business for people to come in more often."
Except that now doctors will all be paid the same amount of money, which means that there won't be as many peoples coming into the field because they won't get paid what they deserve. So ultimately it would end up being bad for business. Of course, I'm sure you won't believe me :)
"I'm not quite sure what your actually arguing? My argument is that those who don't want to pay a little bit more in taxes to support universal health care to help at the very minimum, the 40 million uninsured Americans, are incredibly selfish and short sighted."
Alright then, I'm short-sighted and selfish. Isn't everyone?
"Not everyone gets tax cuts. And do you really think our country could function without taxes? Do you like driving on roads? Or would you like that to be privatized as well? What about sidewalks and bridges? Or prisons? Should these be privatized?"
I don't think that everything should be run by the government. There are very few things that they actually run correctly, or decently enough. If you look at the foster care system you can see a great example of how terribly the government can run something. That's just one example. I'm not saying get rid of taxes entirely, I'm saying stop raising taxes and replace them with a flat or fair tax. Simple as that.
"Every economist in the world worth his salt disagrees with this position. My cousin is getting doctorate in Economics and he is conservative in every position besides economics because he has seen, mathematically and fiscally, that taxing and redistribution of large amounts of funds benefits a country."
Worth his salt... does that mean that he agrees with you/thinks what you think? Of course the ones that agree with you you're going to believe. Do you dislike your cousin? That was just out of honest curiosity.
"That is awesome that you give to charity, it really is. I applaud you. The problem is, that alot of charities aren't very far reaching. And I can't really think of a better institution than the Federal Government to know enough about people and their situations to benefit the people and their specific needs. They have the most data, most communication, and most analysis of any possible charity."
If they actually knew enough about people and their situations to benefit their needs than we wouldn't have the problems that I'm talking about now - people just sitting around because they're on welfare and can do what they want. If they could specify things than that would be great. But that would also mean that they'd have to run by every single case, which would take far too long and be impossible to keep in check. At least charities can give to one cause and work on one thing, where as the government is trying to work on every cause and on everything when that's entirely impossible and the things that need attention are being held off because of other situations and causes that aren't as important.
-Continued-
"However, I will say this; a through examination of one's self, their behaviors, their motives and consequences of one's actions is never a bad thing."I agree with that, as well. Not everyone will do that, but if you don't get them the chance than how will you know?
"Oh absolutely. The problem becomes when people think that adding a few more dollars to their taxes means that they being personally attacked.
However, I will say this; I would rather have a family of poor inner city children receive needed medical care than go on a cruise for the same amount of money. Some things just mean more than others."
A few more dollars? Tax raises seem to be more than just a few more dollars. My parents are having a hard enough time as it is after paying taxes, and if Obama raises them more it'll just get worse and we'll have even more troubles than before. That's a problem, isn't it? Especially when those taxes are the cause of families suffering. I know families who are "rich" (by Obama's standards) who are suffering terribly because of taxation. It doesn't appear to me that taxes are going to make everything better. Maybe some things, but not everything. In fact, it'll probably make some areas worse and some areas greater than before.
Now, of course I'd like a poor family who needs the help to get that help. But not everyone needs help or government assistance. So those who don't need it shouldn't be using our tax money just because they can, especially when some other family could use more help and the money used on those who don't need it could go to them.
"They are. They just get a certain amount taxed from them. I don't think I would complain if I was making a million dollars a year but only could spend 750,000. In fact, I'd rather have that then live in the middle of Chicago, work at a McDonald's and struggle through an existence that most people cannot fathom."
Well, yeah, if they make a million dollars and can only spend 750K after taxing then sure, that's great. But Obama's standards of rich are 200-250K a year. That means that those families who make that much (families that I know who are struggling) are paying far more than they should have to. I think that rich should be defined as 600K, if not more than that.
However, a lot of people have to survive through that existance and some of them make it, because they work for it. I knew a guy who worked at Wal-Mart for, I don't know, ten years who was married and had kids? But he worked hard and managed to get out of that. If everyone could do that than this country would already be better off.
"Your right, schools, the postal service, roads, economic stimulus, medicaid and medicare, all these things are of no benefit. And don't forget your party's precious weaponry!! American tax dollars at work right there."
I was talking about their own personal gain :)
The schools in my state are absolute crap (of course, some states will be higher than others, that's just fact), the postal service isn't absolutely fantastic, roads are great, medicaid and medicare is great for those who need it.
"If one's highest purpose in one's life is to benefit themselves, I would consider that pretty empty."
I still wouldn't consider that empty, I would just consider that selfish.
"Well, I can't let Jayda even have one point correct. She represents all I disdain, all that is wrong with America, it's youth, it's people in general. The fact that there are people like her out there scares me a bit. We're so close to progressing in so many ways and people like Jayda consistently hold us back."
I thought that was funny, Davis :)
Thank you. I'll just have to take that all as a compliment, especially since I actually scare such a left-wing democrat! I'm a little excited now =P Yes, I'm absolutely holding us back by saying that we should have more freedom than government control! I'm so terrible!
-Done-
How was that for a response? ^^
That is by FAR the longest post Jayda's ever had :D
"Ultimately it depends on how you define selfish"I would define it as putting your needs and wants over the needs and wants of others, or all of society. Selflessness is one of the greatest assets a human can have. If you are really a Christian as you claim, you should understand that helping other human beings is the greatest thing someone can do.
"Where some of my party think that our policies are completely unselfish and that yours are, others think that it is selfish, as you do."
That is completely not based in reality. Your party fights against protecting the environment for financial gain. Your party fought against civil rights. My party is the peoples advocate. We are for equality. Our economic policies are the best for society, while yours are for the rich, not quite coincidentally, the greatest supporters of Republicans.
"I don't think that we argue the more money one has the better they are"
You don't argue you it, you exemplify it. Your party worships money. Those who are rich get listened to. Your party abandoned the poor African Americans in New Orleans after Katrina, while still giving tax cuts to the rich.
"I think that we argue that if you have the money than great, give to charity, but you shouldn't be forced to give more than others."
No one is forced to do anything, because we have elected officials. You have the right to protest (The so-called Tea Parties) and the right to vote. Mobilize your voters. The problem is, people have begun to realize conservatism is outdated, unnecessary, and harmful. I agree that giving to charity is great, but just giving to charity alone isn't enough because there are so many different charity's supporting uber-specific groups. The 'charity' with the farthest reach, most knowledge, most research, is the Federal Government. The government needs taxes to keep our country our afloat, and the American people need tax dollars to keep afloat as well.
"Who's to say that I/we/they won't help others out?"
Because the Republican economic system favors selfishness. You won't help very many people out because you simply don't care. You have never wanted or needed for anything. You, I assume, come from a rather affluent family (all indicators you have given me point to this), please tell me if I'm wrong. You can't emphasize with the plight of the poor, the hunger in their stomach, the disenfranchisement. You just don't know, and don't care. That's what is saying you won't really help anyone out, the lack of care.
"Our party doesn't focus on just ourselves, it focuses on the well being of others just as much as you believe your party does."
No it does not. Your party fought against civil rights. Your party orchestrated the 2 largest political scandals in American history (The Teapot Dome Scandal and Watergate). Your party gives the rich a free pass and does nothing to help the poor. They are in the pocket of lobbyists and special interest groups. The Obama administration is noticeably void of lobbyists (There are one or two) whereas Republican cabinets are full of former CEO's and lobbyists. Hell, your last president was personal friends with the Bin Laden's. It is an illusion that the Republican party helps the common man.
"See, this is where your arguments of "I'm right, your wrong" bug me. Of course you think you're right - everyone thinks they're right! I do, you do, Kyle does, Sara does, etcetera. That doesn't mean that we are, that doesn't mean that our ideas are what's right for this country in this time and day, especially compared to other countries. You can fight all you want about this, but I still stand by that - we all think that we're right, even if we aren't."
This might be a bit over your head, but I think it would be a good idea for you to read "Elements of Moral Philosophy" by James Rachel. It fully explains my point: an opinion can in fact be correct. The basis of western philosophy is Socratic and Platonic thought. One of the main tenants of the this philosophy is that nothing can be true. We can only know what we do not know. However, this has been proven false by many prominent philosophers, notably Nietzsche, Foucault and Chomsky. In the case of politics, especially, there are right answers.
"I meant that you can be selfish, just as anyone else, and until you admit that (if you haven't) to yourself than you're just in denial."
Of course I can be selfish. I'll buy myself a meal rather than buying someone else one. However, on a large scale, I am a proponent of the loss of self. We must do what is the best for the whole rather than the individual.
"I wasn't saying test resolve and personal desire."
Essentially, you are though. Because some can go out and 'look for work' and not put their heart into it, and still receive welfare. Weather or not they are really trying, I still believe they should get the money. If someone feels like sitting on their couch in abject poverty for life, I think we should let him. At least he will spend the government money and not buy a home with a terrible mortgage.
"I was saying test going out and trying your very best at getting a job, even if you have to go to five interviews a day, even if you have to walk there, because if you need it you should have to work for it to the best that you can."
Sometimes it just isn't possible to do that. Maybe a mother has 5 kids to look after. I'm not condoning that, but it happens. Maybe they are confined to a wheelchair. Maybe they have a drug addiction and need treatment. You can't expect people to work tirelessly to get a mediocre job that will still leave them underneath the poverty line. We just need to expect people to do the very best they can, and help them out. More than anything, this country needs Bottom Up prosperity to level the playing field.
"once you can't do anymore then you should be helped, but even still you should be working on yourself and making yourself better."
This goes without saying. Humans survival instinct doesn't allow us to stay stagnant. Every human strives for something better, no matter how good they have it. Everyone wants more money, more security, more happiness. No one wants to live in abject poverty, Jayda. I have spoken to plenty of people of Welfare, and at one point, received it myself. It isn't fun, or desirable.
"I think that those who get welfare should be monitored for job interviews, work done, etcetera."
They are. Those on welfare have to prove they have applied for multiple jobs, and once they get jobs, their bosses report directly to the local Welfare office. Once again, I know this from personal experience.
"Right now I think all you have to do is go on three interviews either every week or month. They don't monitor it correctly."
The system is by no means perfect, it has plenty of work to do. The reason it hasn't been updated is that Bush and the Republican kept underfunding it or entirely let it go ignored. We need strong Democrats to monitor the Welfare programs of this nation.
"All you have to do is send them the information and then you're done for that time. You could've done terribly, or decided not to take the job and they wouldn't know because they aren't handling it properly. That is what I mean."
The system isn't half as lackadaisical as you believe (Republican smear tactics), as I know from personal experience, but yes, it does need reformed.
"I'm pretty sure that he worked his way out of welfare. I'll have to look that up."
His wife made him go apply for it because they were living in poverty. It is just very hypocritical of him to rally against welfare and taxes when he was a beneficiary of it. It's been awhile since I read "Rush Limbaugh Is A Big, Fat Idiot" but I think he got off of it when a fellow Republican found out about it and he was embarrassed of it and got off it.
Continued
"Besides that, I know people who have been on welfare for YEARS and nothing's changed."You know, I hear that from some people. I would like to meet these people who are comfortable toiling away in despair on Aid from the Federal Government. Must be a hell of a life.
"They haven't been told to go out and get a job and get off of welfare, they haven't been told that they need to earn their own money, and they're the kind of people who decide that unless they're told they won't do it. So obviously the system isn't as perfect as you think it is."
I never said the system is perfect, it is necessary though. Now that we have an intelligent, progressive man in Office and Democrats in Congress, I expect we will see a major overhaul of the Welfare system, which I will be in favor of. The more closely regulated, the more it will benefit American society.
"Government housing, free food, free bus transportation, free cell phones now. It seems to me that a lot of needs are met, even ones that aren't need (cell phones - people lived without them for YEARS... I think that if you can't afford them you shouldn't waste American tax money on them)."
Housing, Food, and Transportation are all legitimate things to be aided by the government. Cell phones, I can see the reasoning, but I would have to know more about the specific bill before I give an opinion, although I don't think this has been put into effect yet. And your 'for years' argument is redundant, seeing that things change over time. Slavery was around for years, doesn't mean it is right.
"I'm not denying that some people are working hard to get out of it. But if you talk to someone on welfare, often times they'll say that it is hard to get up and get out of it because they don't have to"
It isn't hard to get out of it because they don't ave it , it is because circumstances are against them. No one wants to be on fucking welfare Jayda. I have been on god damn federal aid and it isn't something one would want to get used too. That line of logic is fallacy. The system is stacked against the poor.
"I actually spoke to someone like that and he said that it's the same with everyone else he knows like that. But he still got out, which also shows that one can work hard enough to get out of that kind of situaton."
My family got out of it obviously. People can get of out if it they really work for and THE SITUATION IS CORRECT. I live in a relatively small town compared to Chicago, LA, or NYC where most welfare is doled out. The job market here is entirely different. Sometimes people cannot get out of their poverty no matter how hard they work.
"Except that now doctors will all be paid the same amount of money"
Are all teachers paid the same amount of money? Are all Army officers paid the same? Once again, failed logic. The more senior, and the more skilled, a doctor is, the more he will be paid.
"which means that there won't be as many peoples coming into the field because they won't get paid what they deserve."
Why does a doctor deserve to paid more than an auto mechanic or a magazine writer or a factory worker or a ditch digger? It's all relative, Jayda. With the elimination of expensive schooling, the playing field will considerably leveled and many more people will have the OPPORTUNITY to be doctors. And according to your logic, if less people are doctors, they will be higher in demand, making them get paid more. This is SIMPLE SIMPLE economics.
"So ultimately it would end up being bad for business. Of course, I'm sure you won't believe me :)"
Well, why would I believe you? Your not even close to right. I mean, do you really know anything about Economics? This is a sincere question. That last statement went directly against the simplest economic principle of Supply and Demand.
"Alright then, I'm short-sighted and selfish. Isn't everyone?"
No, everyone isn't. I'm not. Your 'Jesus' wasn't. Gandhi suffered for his people. MLK was assassinated for his cause. People often times realize that the Greater Good is more important than themselves. The hippies of the 60's lived in dirty clothes in the middle of empty fields and lived a ascetic life. There are people out there who realize that they, themselves, are not important in the Grand Scheme of things.
"I don't think that everything should be run by the government."
Neither do I, by any means.
"There are very few things that they actually run correctly, or decently enough."
The Army. The Postal Service. The Highways. The National Parks. Your wrong, sorry. Of course there is always room for improvement, you can't expect any program to be perfect. Luckily, we have Democrats who are working to cure our nations ills, while Republicans fight them every step of the way.
"If you look at the foster care system you can see a great example of how terribly the government can run something."
I know a couple foster kids, and they are remarkably well taken care of. I do agree, however, that the system needs an entire overhaul. Still better than the alternative of no Foster Care at all, I would say.
"I'm not saying get rid of taxes entirely, I'm saying stop raising taxes and replace them with a flat or fair tax. Simple as that."
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, A FLAT TAX? Surely you were being sarcastic? Any implementation of ANYTHING like a flat tax would bankrupt this country so quick, Washington would be on the phone with Shanghai before the bill was fully signed. Me and my Dad had a good laugh at the one, ahhahaha. Whheeew, good stuff. I agree it is a shame that we do have to tax our citizens so much, but it is a an entirely necessary evil. And to be honest, I don't really care if a rich man goes without a 3rd home, a 4th corporation, or a 5th cruise.
"Worth his salt... does that mean that he agrees with you/thinks what you think?"
No, it means anyone respected. I'll be the first to admit I'm biased. But my cousin says that in class, anyone who is in favor of Trickle Down economics is openly mocked and that when they are taught the fundamentals of how it works, it is so ineffective that it's actually funny.
"Do you dislike your cousin? That was just out of honest curiosity."
You know, I really don't. He will debate me on things, but when I make a point that can't be beat, he will concede. I disagree with him on alot of issues, but on the main one, Economics, we agree on the same principles.
"If they actually knew enough about people and their situations to benefit their needs than we wouldn't have the problems that I'm talking about now - people just sitting around because they're on welfare and can do what they want."
I didn't say they have immaculate knowledge, they just have the best. A monitoring system would be pretty expensive, and cost even more tax payer dollars. However, as I previously stated, I believe the system is in dire need of reform, so I think we actually agree on this issue, to an extent; however I think that money still needs to go to welfare to an extent that you would find disgusting, I'm sure :)
"If they could specify things than that would be great. But that would also mean that they'd have to run by every single case, which would take far too long and be impossible to keep in check."
Exactly. And a charity cannot do that either. That is why the system we have currently does work, it just needs some changes and increased funding.
"At least charities can give to one cause and work on one thing, where as the government is trying to work on every cause and on everything when that's entirely impossible and the things that need attention are being held off because of other situations and causes that aren't as important"
So just because a cause is daunting, we shouldn't approach it? If our forefathers had the view point, we would still be a British colony. If women didn't fight for their right, you wouldn't be able to vote.
Continued
GUYS ARE LIKE CUTE LITTLE BUNNY RABBIT KITTY CATS WITH HAMSTER FACES.
ContinuationIf Lincoln didn't have political courage, a black man would still have to call me sir. If Churchill and Roosevelt didn't face Hitler, all of Europe would be Germany. Just because something is difficult, doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.
"I agree with that, as well. Not everyone will do that, but if you don't get them the chance than how will you know?"
Well I was directing that towards you and the rest of the people on here who's political beliefs are mainly influenced by their parents and their environments rather than what is right and what is true. We inherit not only what is good from our parents and environments but also it's prejudices and defects.
"A few more dollars? Tax raises seem to be more than just a few more dollars."
Per person, the raises that seem drastic aren't that terrible. The fact that you seem to be missing is that rich people can be taxed 5%, 10%, even 20% and still live 1000 times more comfortably than 99% of humanity could ever dream of.
"My parents are having a hard enough time as it is after paying taxes, and if Obama raises them more it'll just get worse and we'll have even more troubles than before."
My family income is lower than 100K, and we, like everyone, have been hit by the recession. But I don't need for anything, the way others do. Hell, I don't even want that much. Sure, I'd love to go to Europe, or a road trip. I'd LOVE a flat screen TV, or a new computer. But how can I allow myself these things while 40 Millions Americans go uninsured and dwell in hovels? Our personal sufferings are NOTHING compared to the suffering of ALL.
"Especially when those taxes are the cause of families suffering. I know families who are "rich" (by Obama's standards) who are suffering terribly because of taxation. It doesn't appear to me that taxes are going to make everything better. Maybe some things, but not everything. In fact, it'll probably make some areas worse and some areas greater than before."
The goal of taxes is an evening of the playing field. I really believe that those in the 250K class cannot be suffering that terribly. Are the bills paid? Is there food on the table and water in the sink? If our basic needs are met and some wants allowed, then we are doing okay. The middle class's thought on poverty is skewed. There are Americans who basic human needs are not met. That is the problem. I am sorry if anyone has to suffer, I really am. But suffering is relative. The suffering my family and I have gone through due to the recession is nothing compared the suffering of the poor. The suffering of the 250K and up group is nothing compared the suffering of the over 40 Million Americans without health insurance. We need to make it so that everyone can at least have basic human needs met. I'm not really sure how you can say taxes are going to make anything worse or how Obama is harming America when he has the soundest Economic policy since Kennedy.
"Now, of course I'd like a poor family who needs the help to get that help. But not everyone needs help or government assistance."
Oh your right. You know who really doesn't need help or government assistance? THE RICH. And that is exactly who the Republicans help through tax cuts!!!!!!!!
"So those who don't need it shouldn't be using our tax money just because they can, especially when some other family could use more help and the money used on those who don't need it could go to them."
You are absolutely right. I have agreed with you that Welfare needs reform, I've been saying it for years. The problems is that you think people who do need it shouldn't get it. By your definition there are people who need it who won't get it. There are more Americans who need it than ever, and reform will only be hindered by Republicans with the same objections as yourself.
"Well, yeah, if they make a million dollars and can only spend 750K after taxing then sure, that's great. But Obama's standards of rich are 200-250K a year. That means that those families who make that much (families that I know who are struggling) are paying far more than they should have to. I think that rich should be defined as 600K, if not more than that."
I will still argue with that. 250K (Which is exactly Obama's definition) are still taxed a lower percentage than those who make a million, those make a million are taxed a lower percentage than those who make Two million, etc. Any suffering they are going through is minimal to that of those in the 50K and under bracket. Their suffering is still very important, yet as the Economy rebounds, it will get better for them. Those who are poor, will stay poor. I don't think changing the actual definition of rich is really going to change anything. My parents have already begun to be taxed more under the Obama administration and haven't had any problems or complaints yet.
"However, a lot of people have to survive through that existance and some of them make it, because they work for it."
Some of the hardest working individuals I have personally met are on Welfare. My father being one of them. 14, 15, hour days only to realize he still doesn't enough to pay the gas bill to keep his family warm in the winter (This was years back when my parents got a divorce and the result of was both of them being on welfare). It isn't always possible to get out of it like my father did though and that is the reasoning for Welfare and Bottom Up prosperity economics: The leveling of the playing field, so that every citizen has a chance for success.
"If everyone could do that than this country would already be better off."
Absolutely, however we don't live in a perfect world, and people need help when they are in trouble. Sorry, reality can be a bitch ahhahaha
"I was talking about their own personal gain :)"
I love how perfectly you exemplify a selfish, self-centered, sheltered conservative.
"The schools in my state are absolute crap"
Because the current US system (implemented by a Republican president and Republican congress) is a shame. Thankfully, the Obama Administration and Congress are currently working on reforming our education system. The schools in my state aren't actually to terribly bad, thank god.
"the postal service isn't absolutely fantastic, roads are great, medicaid and medicare is great for those who need it."
Postal service is pretty good, Jayda. Medicaid and Medicare is only for those who direly need it, if they could be expanded we would be on the road to Socialized Medicine, although I agree they are phenomenal programs. So you admit some government ran, taxpayer-paid programs are successful?
"I still wouldn't consider that empty, I would just consider that selfish."
I can't imagine an existence that is so empty that the only thing that matters is myself.
"I thought that was funny, Davis :)
Thank you. I'll just have to take that all as a compliment, especially since I actually scare such a left-wing democrat! I'm a little excited now"
You don't scare me, I'm just scared that the last little bits of conservatism are still hanging around. I wish they would just go away and quit bothering us.
"I'm absolutely holding us back by saying that we should have more freedom than government control! I'm so terrible!"
I am totally for freedoms, I'm just not for the widespread suffering of the people of the country I love.
"How was that for a response?"
Eh, mediocre at best, laughably uniformed at worst. So really, a step up for you. It was like this: Everytime I get a stick of cotton candy, it looks like there is alot there. It's big and fluffy, just like your response. There was plenty there, and you used alot of superfluous words and examples. It takes me a while to get through the cotton candy, because there is so much there. Just like your response took a while, because you typed so much. But, after I get done with my Cotton candy, I'm still hungry, because there is no substance, its fluff.
cont.
Cont.Just like your response: There was plenty there, but when I got done, I was left unfulfilled because all that was there was fluff. It didn't satisfy my hunger for reason and logic.
There, I'm done.
I am sooo, not reading all that, However that was a fun analogy, anyone want to tell me why we're arguing in a 'non-debating discussion'? Oh well...
Marley wrote: "I am sooo, not reading all that, However that was a fun analogy, anyone want to tell me why we're arguing in a 'non-debating discussion'? Oh well..."Because me and Jayda hate each other, or hate what the other represents anyway.
Oh, no, you just hate each other, if I can get along with conservatives you should be able to!
Marley wrote: "Oh, no, you just hate each other, if I can get along with conservatives you should be able to!"I get along with INTELLIGENT conservatives, which I don't really think she is. That is my main issue with her, that she doesn't seem to have her own beliefs.
Okay, so that may be true, but, you could TRY and be nice, at least some of the time.
Marley wrote: "Okay, so that may be true, but, you could TRY and be nice, at least some of the time."People say that alot, but don't really ever give a reason. Why should I be nice to someone I don't respect?
If you don't you seem like a total asshole, and others will find it hard to get along with you, then again, you don't seem the type that is here for friends. You should be nice to everyone, because being mean to them will get you nowhere, and if you are nice to them, who knows, maybe they'll accept your views, and listen to you. Do you act this way in real life, or are you nicer to republicans you know, just wondering...
Marley wrote: "If you don't you seem like a total asshole, and others will find it hard to get along with you, then again, you don't seem the type that is here for friends. You should be nice to everyone, because..."I'm not here to make friends. No I don't act this way in real life, although often times I want too.
I don't understand why you have so much hatred, how can you argue the right for all to love, and yet hate every person here? Maybe I just don't understand you. However I agree, often I want to yell at stupid people I know about politics...then again, the people at my school have such small brains, they wouldn't be able to respond. The last time I did that it ended horribly, which is to bad, because I had a good arguement, at least I thought.
So, because I've realized that it's absolutely impossible to change your mind because you're obviously very headstrong and, it seems to me, close-minded I'm not going to respond to ALL of that. However, I will respond to parts :)My family knows what it's like to be poor. I was a medicaid baby, so was my sister, we lived on government assistance for a few years, my father was and still is a very hard working man, and we pulled ourselves out of it, which is why I think your assumptions that I don't understand being poor is sad. You assume far too much, Davis. It isn't a good thing at all. Livign on government assistance was a terribly embarrassing thing for my family. But government assistance was meant to help people, not to be lived on.
The families that I know who do make $250k ARE struggling, just to let you know.
I'm not entirely influenced by my parents beliefs. My parents do the same thing with me that they do with religion and other things that I can have an opinion on. They tell me not to just listen to them but to do my research and find out what I believe. With religion I've been to many different churches, I've studied other religions, for a time I was almost atheist which goes to show that I have studied. As far as politics, I try and look from all different sides and study from left-wing point of view and right-wing point of view. But there is a different between studying and just reading. Do you STUDY right-wing, Davis, or do you just read, mainly for the sake of being able to say that you do?
As far as the flat tax - I don't see what you think is so wrong with it. It'd be giving you left-wing people what you want - more money from the rich. If we all had to pay 15% of our income in taxes a person who makes $1,000,000.00 would be paying $150,000 of that. It's be the same percentage, but much more from the rich. So isn't that what you want? I'd rather have a fair tax, but flat tax would be great as well.
Now, as far as the rest goes, I'd like to hear more about why you believe what you believe. How is it all going to work the way you say it will? How is it going to help the country, especially compared to my beliefs? Who knows, maybe you can sway me.
just trying to lighten up the mood.And i think Davis is really cool, and i do agree with him on pretty much everything.
Chan, I doubt that you can lighten the mood when Davis and I are debating xD There should be a rule against us debating, like people keep saying, since it just ends up with Davis trying to insult me and me just laughing at his ideas. I wouldn't say that that's a civil debate =P
I agree with him more, but he is mean sometimes...Thanks anyway Chan. <3
JAYda is super awesomness to though. So... LETS SING A SONG!!(scat “bung, bung, bung, bung..........)
Mr. Sandman, bring me a dream (bung, bung, bung, bung)
Make him the cutest that I've ever seen (bung, bung, bung, bung)
Give him two lips like roses and clover (bung, bung, bung, bung)
Then tell him that his lonesome nights are over.
Sandman, I'm so alone
Don't have nobody to call my own
Please turn on your magic beam
Mr. Sandman, bring me a dream.
(scat “bung, bung, bung, bung.….)
Mr. Sandman, bring me a dream
Make him the cutest that I've ever seen
Give him the word that I'm not a rover
Then tell him that his lonesome nights are over.
Sandman, I'm so alone
Don't have nobody to call my own
Please turn on your magic beam
Mr. Sandman, bring me a dream.
(scat “bung, bung, bung, bung)
Mr. Sandman (male voice: “Yesss?) bring us a dream
Give him a pair of eyes with a “come-hither” gleam
Give him a lonely heart like Pagliacci
And lots of wavy hair like Liberace
Mr Sandman, someone to hold (someone to hold)
Would be so peachy before we're too old
So please turn on your magic beam
Mr Sandman, bring us, please, please, please
Mr Sandman, bring us a dream.
(scat “bung, bung, bung, bung….)
IT WAS A SONG~!!!ANOTHER ONE!::
I am really special cuz there's only one of me
look at my smile, I'm so damn happy, the people are jealous of me
when I'm sad and lonely, I like to sing this song
it cheers me up and shows me that I won't be sad for long
oh oh oh I'm so happy, I can barely breathe
puppy dogs and sugar frogs and kittens, baby teeth
watch out all you mothers, I'm happy as hardcore
happy as a coupon for a $20 whore
I'm really happy, I'm sugar coated me,
happy, good, anger, bad, that's my philosophy
Spoken: I can't do this, man. I'm not happy.
I am really special, cuz there's only one of me
Look at my smile, I'm so damn happy, the people are jealous of me
These are my lovehandles, and this is my spout,
but if you tip me over, than mama said knock you out
I am special, I am happy, I am gonna heave
welcome to my happy world, now get your shit and leave
I am happy, I am good, I am...
Spoken: I'm Outta Here! Screw You!
Mod
Struggling how? They have to give up one of their mansions?
"I'd rather have a fair tax, but flat tax would be great as well. "
So people who have nothing have the same tax as people who could buy a city.
OMG!! LMFAO, link give me a link! Love it <3
ONE MORE SONG!Up In My Room
Close Encounters
Time Machine
Fart Wars
Trailer
Your Award
Sunday Sermon
Hear the song Don't Swat a Fly
MORE WEIRD ANIMATED CARTOONS FROM HOYBOYS.NET
I was just a kid when my daddy said to me
Son there's much to learn in this life.
And so there beneath a tree, he sat me on his knee
He said there's dangers in this world
So follow my advice.
Don't swat a fly that's landed on a pitbull
Don't play with your new chainsaw in the tub
Don't give a dozen roses to your girlfriend
Especially if your wife just bought a gun.
And don't ever date your father's cousin's sister
In case she is your uncle's brother's wife.
And don't leave your Grandpa all alone at Hooter's
Unless you got insurance on his life.
And don't ever give Viagara to a Rooster.
He'll cock-a-doodle-doo till he explodes.
And don't ask you in-laws over for a dinner
Unless you're sure they'll all fit in the stove..
And don't take your kids to visit dear old Grandma
Unless they don't mind digging all night long.
And don't swat a fly that's landed on a pitbull
Unless you aren't too drunk enough to run.
And don't ever put pure jet fuel in your tractor
Cause now your cousin Junior's on the moon.
They say he left a trail of anti-matter
and NASA said he won't be back real soon.
And don't take advice unless it's from your daddy
Even if your mother says you ain't my son.
And don't swat a fly that's landed on a pitbull
Unless you aren't too drunk enough to run
Unless you aren't too drunk enough to run.
OMG, I got halfway through the first one and I'm laffing so hard I'm crying!!
HAHAHAHAHA CANT BREATHE!! ROTFL!! OMG, that is just AWESOME!
It's very very relavant. She claims to be indepedant and her own person and it's obvious she isn't and the standards she judges that by are just straigh stupid.