Ancient & Medieval Historical Fiction discussion
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Strategos
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SEPTEMBER 2013 (Group Read 1): Strategos by Gordon Doherty
Bryn wrote: "Great setting and I'd like to ask Gordon, what primary sources did he find to use? Last year I read a Byzantine 'folk epic' set on the east frontiers just before the Seljuks, "Digenes Akrites". ..."
Interesting that you mention Digenes Akrites. I had never come across this until after writing Strategos BitB. A reader contacted me to ask if my book had been inspired by DA, so I bought a copy and noticed many striking parallels (the two-blooded aspect particularly and the love interest). That said, DA is not known for it's literary beauty. I think it is loved for its spirit rather than it's poetic quality.
As for primary sources, I found Michael Attaleiates' History invaluable as an eyewitness walk through the turbulent times of the 11th century. The clashes between Tugrul and Byzantium are somewhat less well documented than the later battles with Alp Arslan, so I had to fill in some blanks surrounding the wheres and whens. Modern sources such as Angold and Treadgold helped piece together the fragments in this respect. Then of course there were the military treatises of Maurice, Leo, Phokas and Ouranos which helped add flesh to the military detail.
Gordon wrote: "...As for primary sources, I found Michael Attaleiates' History invaluable as an eyewitness walk through the turbulent times of the 11th century..."Thanks Gordon, I've invested in that. It was hard to call up on Goodreads, they've misspelt the name (or spelt differently than the cover, whatever). The History
Bryn wrote: "Thanks Gordon, I've invested in that. It was hard to call up on Goodreads, they've misspelt the name (or spelt differently than the cover, whatever)..."Yep - I misspell it nearly every time too :)
Gordon wrote: "Interesting question, Troy. In previous novels with less well-known backdrops (e.g. Legionary, set in late 4th century AD Thracia), I had an up-front historical pretext of 15 pages or so giving a b..."Gordon wrote: "Interesting question, Troy. In previous novels with less well-known backdrops (e.g. Legionary, set in late 4th century AD Thracia), I had an up-front historical pretext of 15 pages or so giving a b..."
I much prefer to have the historical background fed in as part of the story as you have done with Strategos. One of the great things about e-book is that people are now open to reading a wider world of fiction, about places and times which they may not be familiar with. So getting the right method to give background without a heavy dollop of background history is essential. Just coming up to chapter 10. Should I leave this until after lunch?
Martin wrote: "Gordon wrote: "Interesting question, Troy. In previous novels with less well-known backdrops (e.g. Legionary, set in late 4th century AD Thracia), I had an up-front historical pretext of 15 pages o..."Might be for the best ;)
Goodness, I'm impatient until my copy arrives!
I read that novel last year and very much enjoyed it. I rated it 4 stars. I liked the fact that it the period and region featured have not been well covered in other books. Good combat scenes as well and the main character is likable.
I am enjoying the book, but I haven't read much about the Borderlands. I have visited Wikipedia and Google and maps to create a solid background. This research normally would interrupt the reading flow, but it has not, which says something positive about the author.
Gordon, I have a question. It is any specific reason you choose to named Mansur's daughter 'Maria' instead of the most common arabic form 'Maryam'? I am assuming Mansur (from his name) will be exposed more to the Islamic culture hence the probability was higher to named her Maryam.
Lia wrote: "Gordon, I have a question. It is any specific reason you choose to named Mansur's daughter 'Maria' instead of the most common arabic form 'Maryam'? I am assuming Mansur (from his name) will be expo..."Hi Lia. Maria was born at a time when Mansur had made a significant choice in his life:
(view spoiler)
so my thinking was that this would have influenced his choice of her name (in some ways she symbolises his decision). I have been asked this question before, so perhaps I should have made this a little clearer in the story :)
Gordon wrote: "Maria was born at a time when Mansur had made a significant choice in his life."I actually got that from the story, although I initially asked the same question as Lia.
I agree that the background information is handled very well. It's tough when you're writing about a less familiar place/time, not only because you don't want to make readers feel that they've picked up a textbook but because characters make assumptions about the way the world works that have to be made clear without explaining them too obviously.
Bad example, not from your book:
"Well, you see, Son, this here is what we call a sandwich. They're tasty for lunch, or just about anytime."
"No, really, Dad: who knew?"
Reader departs, chortling. :-D
Fish out of water characters are very useful in terms of elucidating strange customs, but even they don't ask all the questions a modern reader may want to know.
Gordon wrote: "Lia wrote: "Gordon, I have a question. It is any specific reason you choose to named Mansur's daughter 'Maria' instead of the most common arabic form 'Maryam'? I am assuming Mansur (from his name) ..."I am really glad that there was a reason for that. Now I can focus on enjoying my read without the nagging question mark behind my head. Thank you... :)
message 115:
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Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd
(last edited Sep 03, 2013 06:15PM)
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rated it 3 stars
I have to admit, the first 25 pages were a quick interesting read and then I got a bit bored until around page 150.(view spoiler)
I like Nasir. I liked him from the start.
Getting on much better with Part Two. A lot happened in chapter 17!! Great fight in the village. (view spoiler)I don't care so much about the Bracchus situation as about the general war. Excited by the (view spoiler)
Yes, I agree with Bryn about the fight in the village. Very creative solution!The childhood stuff didn't bother me; I liked the setup and Apion's adjustment to a new world, and that whole section establishes his character. Also why Mansur and Maria mean so much to him, which becomes important later.
I too found Apion's life in the army more interesting than the business with Bracchus. (view spoiler) (Chapter 12).
C.P. wrote: "The childhood stuff didn't bother me; I liked the setup and Apion's adjustment to a new world, and that whole section establishes his character. Also why Mansur and Maria mean so much to him, which becomes important later..."
Established his character for you. Not for me. We are all different in the way we see things.
message 119:
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Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd
(last edited Sep 04, 2013 03:29PM)
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rated it 3 stars
I finished last night. Since honesty is key in this group and everyone is allowed to speak freely about how they feel on books..this is my honest feedback.It is a quick read. I think that's because of all the spacing (which I still confess to not liking and it messed with the readability of the book for me The spacing is something one sees in news stories and magazine articles. I don't like it in a novel). becasue I am the kind of reader who uses punctuation. Stops for puncuation and pauses etc.. my brain kept baulking a lot at these wide spacings between paragraphs and dialogue. My eyes kept pausing for the spacings as they resemble a scene break. It did not make for a flowing read.
The big spacing makes the book seem longer than it is.
Because everyone reads differently, this is going to bother some people and not bother others. It will bother some a lot (me) or only bother people mildly.
Each to their own.
For me, the formatting, while I promised I would not mark the book down for it, I kind of have to as it blocked me from reading the book the way I should have been reading it. With natural flow. I kept reading it like a movie script or a news article.
I wish there were more books written in this era and this country. It was really refreshing to read something new and different. Something pretty much un-mined. I can't think of another book set during this time and in this area. Another thing it had going for it was that it wasn't just another book on a famous leader. This was a book about regular people. I like those books.
All up I have some personal taste issues with the book.
What bothers me or doesn't sit well with me, sits very well with others. So, these aren't big issues, but they did get in the way of me outright loving the book.
I liked it and I mean no disrespect to it when I give it 3 stars.
I will explain my issues when I do the review.
I am really sorry Gordon. I wanted so much to give it 4. Although, there is no call for apologising. Authors sometimes don't realise that on GR 3 stars is not actually a bad thing. According to the GR rating system, 3 stars means 'I liked it'. It doesn't mean 'I didn't like it'.
If a book has a lot of 3 stars and under, then that can be offputting for many readers, but when I book has 3 stars and up and most are 4 and 5 stars (like your boo has), that looks really good for the book.
I gave Hannibal: Enemy of Rome 3 stars too and this was a similar kind of book to me.
Terri wrote: "...I gave Hannibal: Enemy of Rome 3 stars too and this was a similar kind of book to me..."Funny, I've been thinking of Hannibal: Enemy of Rome while I'm reading this. As in, similar or I feel similarly about it. Hey Terri, did you mean Hannibal: Fields of Blood? Doesn't matter, it's #1 and #2.
I went up to 4 on that for its warm-heartedness and I'm thinking, maybe the same goes with Strategos.
Oh yeah. I meant Hannibal Fields of Blood. Thanks for that catch.That's interesting that you felt the same. I find the story style very similar.
message 123:
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Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd
(last edited Sep 04, 2013 04:00PM)
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rated it 3 stars
It kind of made me feel not so guilty about giving the book 3 stars when I started to feel it was like Ben Kane's books. It means I am consistent. :)They are similar style and they both came to mean 3 stars to me. both got 3 stars due to personal taste issues and not any really negative problems I had with the writing.
Confusion sets in because on Amazon three stars is explained as 'It's OK' and four as 'I like it'. I've seen people who give different ratings on Amazon and Goodreads to suit the attached text.
Terri wrote: "It kind of made me feel not so guilty about giving the book 3 stars when I started to feel it was like Ben Kane's books. It means I am consistent. :)They are similar style and they both came to m..."
The first book in this series was not my favorite, either. However, the second book, Strategos: Rise of the Golden Heart was better.
The Byzantines are an amazing treasure trove of drama that historical novelists have only begun to explore. Stella Duffy and Stephanie Thornton have done books on Empress Theodora (and her husband, the Emperor Justinian). Anne Perry did a book called The Sheen on the Silk which took place about 1270 in Byzantium, which was very well written. Cecelia Holland has written a couple of books, one of which I read, The Belt of Gold, that took place in Byzantium.
It is a remote time and place readers can have a difficult time imagining. We all have images in our heads of the Tudors, or the Romans, or the ancient Egyptians, or medieval Europe, but the Byzantines are quite remote. It is difficult to even imagine what they wore. In a bit of serendipity, I stumbled upon a book of Byzantine paper dolls in an Asian art museum a few years ago, which helped.
It is books like Gordon's that will help us start to appreciate this remarkable civilization.
message 126:
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Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd
(last edited Sep 04, 2013 05:47PM)
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rated it 3 stars
Hi Eileen,Sorry, I should have clarified. It isn't actually Byzantium itself, that I wish there more books set in, it is the combination of Byzantium and the 11th century. That particular era was quite interesting and tumultuous.
Most books I have come across are set before or after this period.
Terri wrote: "Hi Eileen,Sorry, I should have clarified. It isn't actually Byzantium itself, that I wish there more books set in, it is the combination of Byzantium and the 11th century. That particular era was ..."
Too true. But this period (1025-1081) was a roller coaster of incredibly bad leadership for long periods, interspersed with a few good emperors until Alexius Comnenus reigned. It could really give the Tudors a run for their money as far as dramatic opportunities go. I am glad to see Gordon giving it a shot.
It's the eastern frontier setting I like. I'm an enthusiast for medieval Turks and to have the Seljuks in a novel excites me. If anyone knows other novels with significant Seljuk presence...?
Bryn wrote: "It's the eastern frontier setting I like. I'm an enthusiast for medieval Turks and to have the Seljuks in a novel excites me. If anyone knows other novels with significant Seljuk presence...?"This is the other part of my wish back in message 120, for more books "set in this time and in this area"
The borderlands of the Byzantine Empire during the 11th century. Where they were fighting off the Seljuks and cultures were blending.
I am not as interested in novels set in Istanbul (of course, not called Istanbul at the time). Nor novels set on the leaders.
I would like more like Gordon's book. Set on the frontiers where there are blended cultural hotspots and enemy forces building. Skirmishes breaking out.
Yep. Likewise, I'm not into the court intrigues or the centre. I own the Stella Duffy but it's low on my to-read list.
I like to get out of the city. :)
My copy came and I started it. I'm enjoying it so far, about 47 pp in. The prologue and appearance of the dream? vision? don't bother me. I like the wider spacing between each line in a paragraph; with my older eyes, it's easier to read. Dialog of one line then another of one line will take getting used to. I think the story will be engrossing; it is, so far.
Hi Jane,I thought the things that bothered me would not bother you so much. ie fantasy and childhood.
It really is just a personal taste thing.
The line spacing between paragraphs made the read start to stutter for me, but like you, my biggest reading flow problem came in the dialogue.
the prologue: Why not have a bird thinking, rather than a person? Anthropomorphizing does sound weird, though.The old woman: I immediately thought of Joan of Arc and her voices.
I'm not enamoured of skipping a space between each line of dialogue.
I think the childhood section gave some of the background and further motivation for more than one character.
The impaling, torture, and heads on the wall were too gruesome--the last especially since one head had been a that of a sympathetic character.
I wish there had been some kind of line drawing of a Byzantine soldier and the parts of his kit all labelled. I wanted to get an idea myself, so I found pictures of some of the military saints [icons]; they're all dressed in Byzantine military dress, but most of them lived in Diocletian's time [300 or so]. There were even pictures of Longinus, the centurion at the crucifixion in Byzantine military dress.
Jane wrote: "the prologue: Why not have a bird thinking, rather than a person? Anthropomorphizing does sound weird, though.The old woman: I immediately thought of Joan of Arc and her voices.
I'm not enamour..."
I was kind of fine about the gruesome bits. Did not think they were too gruesome. At least, for me, they did not seem gratuitous. Which was good. There were some every now and again that may have felt a little gratuitous, but on the whole it was pretty good for me in that department.
They did not feel intentionally rounded out in order to appeal to the reader who loves gore porn.
Battle stuff or fighting off brigands doesn't bother me so far. If it does, I'll just skim-read it. Any time it does bother me is where there's a sympathetic character involved. I just finished the attack on the village and the soldiers' and civilians' defense--very clever.
Are you glad you ended up buying it, Jane? or is it too soon to know for sure?
No, I'm glad I bought it; but it was expensive in paperback. It could have been maybe 5-10$ cheaper. I'm about 75% finished. They just had the big battle at Argyropoulis. Gordon does a good job on describing battle scenes. And I am glad there are good and bad people on both sides. Bracchus and his henchman remind me of that sadistic commandant [I forget his name] in Beau Geste. I'm sure Gordon has taken influences from all over.
Yes, it is quite up there in cost. In my country, it is more expensive to buy than the hardcover of Bernard Cornwell's brand new The Pagan Lord. :[
I'd like to read Part II but I hope Gordon hasn't dehumanized Apion.
Jane wrote: "I wish there had been some kind of line drawing of a Byzantine soldier and the parts of his kit all labelled. I wanted to get an idea myself, so I found pictures of some of the military saints [ic..."Dont know if this may help Jane. It covers the time period.
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store...
Secondhand shop just opened near me (cheap one), on a Byzantine theme came across The Belt of Gold that Eileen mentioned, thanks for putting the title in my head Eileen.
Mark wrote: "Jane wrote: "I wish there had been some kind of line drawing of a Byzantine soldier and the parts of his kit all labelled. I wanted to get an idea myself, so I found pictures of some of the milita..."You beat me to it, Mark. Osprey and their artists do an excellent job of illustrating Byzantine garb and armour throughout the empire's long history.
Jane wrote: "Any time it does bother me is where there's a sympathetic character involved."I understand completely where you're coming from. I didn't relish writing those scenes, but I knew from my own reads (particularly David Gemmell), just how powerful a scene can be when a good guy meets a grim and unjust end. As a reader, that kind of sceen riles me, spurs me on and gets me right behind the protagonist.
Gordon wrote: "Mark wrote: "Jane wrote: "I wish there had been some kind of line drawing of a Byzantine soldier and the parts of his kit all labelled. I wanted to get an idea myself, so I found pictures of some ..."Thanks to both you and Mark for the reference. Most of those soldier-saints were killed in Diocletian's time so that would have been much earlier.
Gordon, just a question: why did you have the soldiers chanting the slogan in Latin, rather than in Greek? I looked in an Orthodox prayer book and it would have been [and I'm transliterating here]: Meth' imón o Theós.
Bryn wrote: "Secondhand shop just opened near me (cheap one), on a Byzantine theme came across The Belt of Gold that Eileen mentioned, thanks for putting the title in my head Eileen."There's another by Gillian Bradshaw:Imperial Purple. It's not as good as Island of Ghosts by her, but still good for the time period.
Jane wrote: "Gordon, just a question: why did you have the soldiers chanting the slogan in Latin, rather than in Greek?."I've been asked that one a lot, and my answer has stoked a lot of debate!
The Byzantines of the 11th century undoubtedly spoke Greek, but certain Latin terminology (particularly in law, government and military affairs) is thought to have become 'fossilised' (just as certain Latin phrases are used and understood in English conversation) or partially Hellenised (e.g. Kontubernion from Contubernium).
I thought that 'Nobiscum Deus', a war cry that had existed since the 4th century AD was one that may well have transcended the shift in living language, gaining an air of mystique and sanctity. It was attested to in Haldon's 'Warfare State and Society' as being used in the 7th century (after the shift to Greek) and grouped loosely as with a number of other practices that 'continued throughout the lifespan of the empire'
So it's all a bit fuzzy. Essentially, it's my take on what the Byzantine armies would have cried, and ascertaining for certain what their war cry would have been has so far proved elusive (there's a very long debate about it on my thread on Amazon!).
Thank you for your prompt reply. Your logic makes sense, but I still prefer the Greek. The Latin phrase made me think of Crusaders and their "Deus vult". What I wrote is a guess, too, just taken from my source. That Greek--Byzantine, not modern--has the same meaning as the Latin.
Ancient & Medieval Historical Fiction
Books mentioned in this topic
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The Hangman's Daughter (other topics)
Strategos: Rise of the Golden Heart (other topics)
A Proper Education for Girls (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
C.S. Lewis (other topics)Cecelia Holland (other topics)
Gillian Bradshaw (other topics)
Stella Duffy (other topics)
Stephanie Thornton (other topics)
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Firstly...yeah, as expected I don't like the double line spacing between paragraphs. It isn't THAT much of an issue for my readinf flow in the bigger paragraphs, but when it comes to short sentences and areas of dialogue my brain registers more space than dialogue and it messes with my mojo. Sorry Gordon. As mentioned earlier in the thread though, I won't mark down the book for the formatting.
First 25 pages
(view spoiler)[ I really didn't like kicking off with some fantasy. You all know about my aversion to fantasy leaking into straight hist fic. Any fantasy feel should be able to be rationalised and I am not sure the fantasy in this book can be. Hoping the fantasy bit is over and done with.
I can rationalise the old woman coming to him as a dream that felt real. but the lead in prologue bit with the eagle...that I couldn't rationalise.
(hide spoiler)]
As for the rest of what I read. Highly addictive so far! :)