Part Two (Chapters 5 - 7) - TPotE

[Meghan]

1. In a time when women were often considered subordinate, Regan Hamleigh and Ellen seem to operate outside of social norms. Why do you think this is? How are the two women similar? How do they differ?

[Meghan]

2. What do you make of William Hamleigh's penchant for violence, yet fear of hell? Is character a result of his upbringing and situation, or is he pure evil?

[Meghan]

3. There are many deals made in Kingsbridge. Does Philip always operate in the best interests of the Church, or does he make selfish bargains? If he continues to get what he wants, is he any better than Waleran Bigod?

[Robbie]

1. In a time when women were often considered subordinate, Regan Hamleigh and Ellen seem to operate outside of social norms. Why do you think this is? How are the two women similar? How do they differ?

Hmmm...well, I think they are both pretty smart. At least in Regan's case, probably smarter than her husband. She is certainly more ambitious than her husband. Being so physically unattractive, she probably isn't able to get what she wants in the usual manor of being cute and charming. What do you make of the boils? Severe acne? I don't think syphilis stays in the rash stage that long, and we would expect other manifestations over time. Shrug.

Ellen is more of a beauty, although described as unconventional in that regard. She seems to simply wish to be not dependent on others--she doesn't seem to need or want to manipulate others so much. I get a sense that she has been maligned by the social norms (e.g. watching the beheading of her lover at the beginning of the book), and that is at least a part of her choosing to live outside of them. She is very sensitive to the injustices of different standards of behavior, etc, because of one's "rank."

2. What do you make of William Hamleigh's penchant for violence, yet fear of hell? Is character a result of his upbringing and situation, or is he pure evil?

I think William's violent nature combined with a
fear of hell is not all that surprising. We certainly continue to see that today in people with all kinds of religious beliefs. Many people will report a belief in God or Jesus/Heaven and Hell, yet do not conform to the behavior others might equate with those beliefs.

As for the nature vs. nurture thing, I suggest referring to the Wicked thread from the RGBC, before the discussion degenerated to fries with mayonaise :)

3. There are many deals made in Kingsbridge. Does Philip always operate in the best interests of the Church, or does he make selfish bargains? If he continues to get what he wants, is he any better than Waleran Bigod?

I think Philip tries very hard to operate in the best interest of the church. He seems to be aware of the possibility of his actions being influenced by his pride and tries to keep that in check. That makes him human and thus earns him a few points in my book. He also is frugal with his money and tries to distribute it fairly. Certainly one could argue that placing such an emphasis on having the resources to build a cathedral is wrong, but he is at least trying to do the most he can with every penny spent on it. I liked how he worked with Aliena to help her get a fair price for her wool. That showed true compassion. Waleran seems obsessed with power, wealth and material goods, such as his own fancy clothes. He loses points with me for that. Philip's "scheming" seems to always be making sure that previous verbal agreements are upheld, as opposed to Waleran's which are typically efforts to break his agreements, resulting in a more favorable situation for himself. Philip's methods are non-violent, which is again more palatable to me. So, I would say yes, I think Philip is better than Waleran, at least at this point in the book.

[Meghan]

I think Philip's actions make him human. That while he tries hard to be a man of God, he falls to human responses and temptations. Philip wants what's best for his church and his "family" but one wonders if he is of the "ends justify the means" philosophy. It also makes you wonder if he wasn't better suited for business than for the Church (although in those days, was there much of a difference?).

As for William, I don't think he was pure evil. I think he was a very insecure boy, raised by a tyranical mother who struck the fear of God in him. I think in modern times, he would be a bully with borderline pyschotic tendancies.

I didn't care for either Regen or Ellen. They sort of were the extremes of womanhood to me. I wasn't sure if I fully respected Ellen for her insistence on standing up for herself all the time at the sacrifice of all others. But in that regard, she seemed perfectly suited for Tom. On the flip side, I didn't necessarily hate Regen for wanting to promote her son and her family. She kind of was a midevil stage mom. heh

[Robbie]

Hmmm...I would say William has Anti-social Personality Disorder, maybe some obsessive-compulsive disorder. So far, I haven't noticed any hallucinations or delusions to suggest psychosis. (sorry, couldn't resist) In any case, your response would suggest you lean toward the "nurture" explanation.

I agree, I'm not very fond of Ellen either.

Just a gut feeling, but I suspect some of your responses are colored by things that happen later in the book. Not a complaint--it keeps me interested!

[Robbie]

As I was reading the early part of part III this morning, it occurred to me that Williams violence/fear of hell, is a manifestation of his adolescent stage of moral development.

[Meghan]

William just reminded me of an overgrown bully. And I was trying to think of the word I just read that described another guy, but I couldn't and was too lazy to go get the book to find out what it was. Well, maybe later today I'll figure out what I really meant. heh

I find his relationship with his mother really interesting in a very scary way. Just thinking of all the different stories where there are women-hating men, you can pretty much trace it back to their relationship to the dominant woman in their life (normally their mother, sometimes their grandmother).

On the other hand, do you think that Regen used this "power" because she knew physically she would never be able stand up to William? And his preference towards violence (as the period itself was just a violent time) might overwhelm her some day.

[Sarah]

I'm only halfway through with this section, so I haven't read any of the above posts yet. I do want to comment on Aliena, though. Her shame that she feels after her rape is, sadly, still typical of how many rape victims feel today. Aliena no longer is considered a virgin, whereas today I think virginity has more to do with consent than the presence of a hymen (since the hymen can be broken by athletic activity as easily as by sexual activity). And still, some rape vicitms still feel at fault for their rape, as if they did something to deserve or even invite it. And many times, even in 2009, these people (rape victims are not always women) still can carry a stigma. Claims of rape very often are met with skepticism and scorn. I'm rambling here. It's just very sad that even 900 years later, things haven't changed all that much.

On a bit of a lighter note, Aliena's coming to terms with her new station in life reminds me of other riches-to-rags stories. When she remembered living in their house in town, and having a grey palfrey and and fins clothes to wear, for some reason I got a flash of pre-war Scarlett O'Hara.

[Meghan]

For a man writing this story, I particularly enjoyed Aliena. I didn't necessarily agree with everything she did, but overall I thought she was someone who embodied the "successful" female spirit. Some may say Ellen is more the women libber, but I say it's Aliena.