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August Group Read #1: Jordan's Brains
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Wait. Wait. Wait.If someone is an arrogant a**hole for restraining someone, what are they for chucking them off a roof? :)
Of course, the big difference is that Jordan was restrained for h/er safety, while Merle was restrained for everyone else's safety.
PS: I have been restrained to a bed for an extended time.
I hunted down every single one of those SOB's and ate their beating hearts... (jk)
I will agree to disagree about why Jordan was restrained, and whether or not it was the right thing to do.Randy when the zombie apocalypse happens I want Netanella to make the final call if you get to restrain me, OK?
But you can make the call if I get shot, thrown off a building or released into the wild.
I am sure that zombies are just as complex of beings as humans are; and same as humans, can have an overwhelming proportion of stupid shamblers compared to the more sentient and intelligent ones. I like to read a variety of zombie books which explore the possibilities, from rising out of graves long dug, to fresh bites causing them to turn in a matter of moments or hours, mobs of undead shamblers to ambush plotters. It would be boring if we weren't to explore all the possibilities; I'm not a zombie purist. Jordan is my first zombie with mental illness, however. Very original!J. wrote: "Thank you Tammy, Randy, and Netanella for your input. You've brought up some interesting topics!
Here are the questions for section three:
1. It turns out that the “zombies” in Jordan’s Brains ar..."
Question 1 I am not hung up over what traits a zombie must have to be a zombie. This is fiction after all and as such its purpose ( if one can assign a purpose to fiction) is to explore alternative possibilities.If you limit your monsters to preexisting monsters, and the methods that they've been created to already explored methods, than for me it gets boring and loses its scariness.
If in the sub-genre we want to see a cure to zombism (no a real word but one that I'll use to imply the zombie condition is an infection rather than a death) than we will have to consider other possible mind states that allow for the zombie physical and behavioral changes.
Reduced brain blood flow is one way to rationalize the ill individual behavior and making it possible for survivors to forgiven them.
A cure is no good if the survivors seek revenge. A vaccination to prevent zombism is not a cure, it a precaution.
So (view spoiler) it is breaking ground in the sub-genre.
2
What do I think about intelligence and emotions in zombies?
Without a double that is a break away in the sub-genre that is growing more popular.
In the past, I've enjoyed zombie apocalypse style books (including the zombie necromancer magic books) for the thrilling fight-for-your-life action, the survival side (mankind without its toys, predictable element of life (work, shopping, church and the like) and that if done right, a zombie book uses the zombie monsters to put the characters in a highly intense situations which can not be found in everyday life, and then challenges the characters to look at their morals (past and current).
With zombies that are actually dead, the life appreciation and moral examination elements are moot.
With zombies who retain some memories and (view spoiler) those previously unavailable elements are now open to be explored.
PS I hate autocorrect.
SueAnn wrote: "I am sure that zombies are just as complex of beings as humans are; and same as humans, can have an overwhelming proportion of stupid shamblers compared to the more sentient and intelligent ones. ..."Wow, we are on the same wave length here.
Randy when the zombie apocalypse happens I want Netanella to make the final call if you get to restrain me, OK?"Believe me, you wouldn't want me in charge of anything.
Randy wrote: "Believe me, you wouldn't want me in charge of anything."That doesn't sound too encouraging.
Maybe we should boycott the zombie apocalypse and hold out for an apocalypse that we might fair better in?
Tammy K. wrote: "Without a double [intelligence and emotions in zombies] is a break away in the sub-genre that is growing more popular."Not at all. Goes way back to Richard Matheson's, I am Legend (1954). It is likened more to vampires than zombies because the infected exhibited vampire-like symptoms (because of a mass hysteria belief that they ARE vampires). It was the inspiration for Romero's Night of the Living Dead. But, in that novel, the infected form their own society.
I will admit that I do not recall the details of I am Legend.Did I am legends zombie vampires have intellence and emotions?
I really must grit my teeth and watch that 1968 black-and-white American independent horror film directed by George A. Romero...that gets the claim for being the must see cult classic and official foundation for all things zombie..
Again when I first stumbled across zombies it was in mythology works, and in the dark fantasy subgenre with voodoo magic necromancy.
1. Zombie as undead or zombie as infected alive? Does this make it any easier to sleep at night, in our justification for killing the zombies? Would the hero say, well, they were dead anyway, so this is a more permanent death? We put down rabid dogs, mad cow diseased animals, etc. Sometimes infected humans gotta go, too. Especially if they view you as the menu. 2. Thinking zombies vs. mindless zombies. That's a good one - depends on the book, depends on the characters. Intelligent zombies who think and plot - now that's some scary stuff. It's not like the protagonists are going to hose them down with water or scare them off with fire or put up a chain link fence with barb wire on top.
Heck, if you really think about it, thinking zombies are all around us. They were the ones who "were just following orders" at Auschwitz, or mindlessly hazing other kids into gangs or even college fraternities...
SueAnn wrote: "It would be boring if we weren't to explore all the possibilities; I'm not a zombie purist."
Agreed on that - give us zombie diversification!
Netanella wrote: "...., They were the ones who "were just following orders" at Auschwitz, or mindlessly hazing other kids into gangs or even college fraternities... ..."I was going to make a different but sorta similar comment going from the other angle.
Could a victim who lost his/her family to an ill individual (zombie) forgive that or other former zombies?
Would the previous zombies that retain memories be criminal responsible for their actions while they were zombies?.... Think about how in today's society we prosecute any one found to be mental healthy at the time of their trials regardless of their mental health condition at the time of the crime.
Next, would former zombies want to be cured if it means that they must live with possible death sentences or being locked away for the rest of their lives for the things they did while zombified?
And lastly, (wow autocorrect accepts lastly) do former zombies get PTSD ?
The only thing I can't get over about Jordan's Brains is that she remembers everything she did while a zombie. I can't imagine living with the memory of cannibalism; the others are blessed with forgetfulness. Even then, those people know what they did in general while they were sick. I'd imagine there would be an outbreak of suicides after the cure, and psychiatrist's couches would be crowded. Personally, I'd rather think of the zombies as dead already, not curable.
I don't really have any set standards for how authors portray Zombies, just as long as the Zombies are a signifigant threat to humans. For me, I just don't care if they are infected humans, risen-dead, or other. If it comes at me, I am going to do everything in my power to lay down enough hurt so it is not a threat any more.A Zombie, for me, is defined by that insatiable appetite, and the unconscious need to spread their sickness.
Great questions, J.!
I have to say, I am enjoying Jordan as a zombie... :)
SueAnn wrote: "The only thing I can't get over about Jordan's Brains is that she remembers everything she did while a zombie. I can't imagine living with the memory of cannibalism; the others are blessed with fo..."I'm a pretty level-headed guy. It takes a lot to upset me. Not sure, though, how I'd react to that. I was a zombie and I ate people. It was my nature. IDK that might still upset me. There was a show in the UK that touched on that a little. In the Flesh. Decent show.
I get a little annoyed with people who want all zombies to be the same. I'm down with anything as long as it's a good story.
I haven't read the replies from everyone else (since I'm so late to the discussion), so I'll just go ahead and answer and I apologize if this is like the aforementioned...1. I think the bullet to the head issue is a very sensitive one (no pun intended), but I say that because in Jordan's case, Jordan wanted to spend what little time there was helping people. Then came the capture/trapped in the van/experiment phase, which to be honest, would suck. For myself, if I was bitten (but like Jordan, I like to think I wouldn't be or would be shocked if I was) I, too, would want to spend what little time I had left, helping others. If it was a gradual change and felt myself slipping away into zombie-ness, I would probably ask someone to "do the honors" and send me into the next world, because I wouldn't want to hurt friends/family/other survivors. (Like the father in the Dawn of the Dead remake)
2. In my opinion, Taylor was in the wrong. If Jordan wanted to go that was Jordan's choice and by Taylor locking Jordan up, he obviously took that choice away from Jordan. I understand family wanting to look out for family but in the event of a global disaster if someone want to help or "do their part" they should be allowed to do that. If Jordan wasn't capable for some reason or if Taylor had a valid reason why Jordan coming along would be a hinderance, then I could see Taylor's decision justified, but based on the circumstances I think that Jordan should have been free to make the choice...
Awesome questions!!!
It's Wednesday, August 14th...... :-)
I want to thank all of you for participating in the Jordan’s Brains group read discussion! I appreciate your comments and questions. Here are the questions for the final section:1. After curing the infected people, did the government have a right to keep the survivors locked up, even if it was to protect them?
2. After Jordan preached throughout the story that "zombies are people too," it was out of character for Jordan to go on a zombie killing spree at the end of the book. Even though Jordan's behavior seemed psychotic in that scene, it was probably a normal reaction to the circumstances. I most likely would have done exactly what Jordan did and killed every zombie I could find. How do you think you would have reacted if you were in Jordan's situation?
Thanks again for participating. I hope you enjoyed the book!
1. Definitely. What's on the outside? Zombies and scavengers. The odds of anyone finding family members alive is slim. Now, granted, Jordan was an exception, because of the fallout shelter.But it's people like Jordan that get other people killed, because they think they know best, even in contradiction with everyone else in the group. And how useful were Jordan's "rules"?
2. I always have trouble with this kind of vigilantism. If a Muslim or a black teenager killed my daughter, does that mean I should hate ALL Muslims or black teenagers?
It's been established that these are just sick people, not zombies. So I believe the only justification for killing would be direct self-defense.
=========================================
Here's a question -- if Jordan had gone back to the fallout shelter when infected, would s/he have been able to resist eating Casey and the kids?
And, if so, why not Taylor? He obviously had enough cognizance to get back to the shelter and punch in the numbers to open up the shelter.
Or does Jordan's illness allow for more control of actions?
1. After curing the infected people, did the government have a right to keep the survivors locked up, even if it was to protect them?I believe so, yes. Until the virus is completely contained it is a matter of public safety. The survivors didn't have immunity and could be reinfected and infect others.
Having grown up in Frederick, MD (small world), I have to wonder if Fort Detrick is the inspiration for the center?
2. After Jordan preached throughout the story that "zombies are people too," it was out of character for Jordan to go on a zombie killing spree at the end of the book. Even though Jordan's behavior seemed psychotic in that scene, it was probably a normal reaction to the circumstances. I most likely would have done exactly what Jordan did and killed every zombie I could find. How do you think you would have reacted if you were in Jordan's situation?
I agree it was out of character, but strongly disagree that it was normal behaviour. Like Randy, I don't agree with this type of vigilantism. If I am mauled by a bear and die, I don't expect my husband to avenge my death by going out and shooting bears. I actually wouldn't consider it fair to shoot the offending bear. It was just doing what a bear does. The zombies were just doing what zombies do, and if anyone should understand this it would be Jordan.
if Jordan had gone back to the fallout shelter when infected, would s/he have been able to resist eating Casey and the kids?
I don't think so, I think Jordan would have gobbled them up and made some justification making it "okay".
At the end of the book when Jordan decided to watch The Walking Dead, instead of letting Michael watch cartoons, I was pretty annoyed. Maybe it's the mom in me, but I couldn't believe Jordan would be so clueless as to the mental health of the kids after living through all those horrors. It leaves a lot of questions about Jordan's mental health and what, if anything, there is in place to help the survivors.
1. After curing the infected people, did the government have a right to keep the survivors locked up, even if it was to protect them?Government.. such a loose statement especially at the end of a zombie apocalypse.
Whatever duly elected officials that survive, are likely to be few and scattered.
This is the same "Government" that failed to prevent the zombie infection from spreading and from protecting the citizens.
My mind does a quick flash about the more recent apocalypse TV series/Movies/Books that I have seen/read.
There seems to be a common element of a "New self appointed Government" taking over and making way for the very popular Dystopian genre.
This new government promise 'the pie and the sky' if you just surrender your human rights, independent spirit, and blindly follow their new plans for society.
Run Jordan, Run!
How do you think you would have reacted if you were in Jordan's situation?
I do not know that I would take up weapons against anyone but I can understand Jordan's anguish.
I have lost a loved one by the hands of a criminal. Forgiveness is great, but it is a journey that takes a long time to make.
While fiction is great for giving us a chance to ponder the situations that the characters are in, examine their (and hopefully our own) moral make up, it is from the safety of the reader/viewer.
To know what we would do in a zombie apocalypse, we would have to live through that zombie apocalypse, or situations very similar in their extremities away from daily life.
Now one last question or rather statement from me:
I did not enjoy not knowing Jordan's gender.
Here is why:
It put up a mental wall between my connection to Jordan and most importantly, the lack of gender blocked me from mentally imagining the scenes taking place.
Tammy K. wrote: "This is the same "Government" that failed to prevent the zombie infection from spreading and from protecting the citizens."Probably because of people like Jordan who think they know better.
In almost every "infection" type scenario, there is a quarantine zone. And there are always individuals within the zone that are convinced they aren't infected, and violate that zone. Thus spreading the infection.
Even if told they could be infected and could kill millions by leaving, their response is usually something like, "I don't care. I don't want to die here. I deserve a chance to live."
Or, in Jordan's case, "I know best."
Just another reason you don't want me in charge. Such people would get a bullet to the head. Tout de suite.
Randy, You can be our group pessimist, as long as I can be the groups agitator. Deal?
You'd be walking a fine line.In all other aspects of life, I *am* the agitator. Question authority!
However, in a quarantine situation, I do draw the line.
I just never thought Jordan thought things through. Like I said in my first message here, I was surprised the car hadn't been stolen earlier than it had.
And I'm surprised someone didn't get killed in the first jaunt. Jordan was a delusional, dangerous loose cannon, and needed to be locked up and restrained.
Or tossed off the rooftop! :)Jordan's Brains was a great read - thank you, J.
1. I'm not big on the government saving me from myself. I think that in a free society an adult should be able to make their own decisions however bad they may be.2. I pride myself on my ability to keep my emotions in check and not fly off the handle. Of course, Tammy's "walk a mile in my shoes" take on this question makes a lot of sense. I don't know that I could control myself in that specific situation. When you lose someone you love, it's natural to want to lash out in some way.
I liked the genderless main character aspect of this book. I think it's a cool idea to let the reader decide. Knowing the author fairly well, and the story being told in the first person, Jordan was the same gender as the author right from the start to me.
Ian wrote: "I think that in a free society an adult should be able to make their own decisions however bad they may be."That would save a lot of money. We could get rid of prisons, police, Medicare, and Social Security. :)
In general, I also believe we should be free to do as we like. However, I also believe we should be held responsible for the consequences of those actions. Rights and responsibilities always need to go hand in hand.
So, the question is -- if someone that is infected chooses to leave quarantine, do we sentence them to death before or after they infect (and kill) someone else?
Ian wrote: "I pride myself on my ability to keep my emotions in check and not fly off the handle."
Myself as well. I have to. Otherwise, I'm like Bruce Banner -- "You wouldn't like to see me when I'm mad."
I had to get rid of my car in 1984. I was a poster child for road rage. Even to the point where I almost followed people home to confront them. Being 6'5" and 300 pounds at the time, it wouldn't have ended well.
Ian wrote: "I liked the genderless main character aspect of this book. ... and the story being told in the first person"
I think it would be very difficult to write it genderless without it being told in the first person. By doing so, the main character never needs to be referred to with a pronoun. And genderless pronouns would be awkward for the reader.
Randy wrote: "Ian wrote: "I think that in a free society an adult should be able to make their own decisions however bad they may be."That would save a lot of money. We could get rid of prisons, police, Medica..."
I like the get rid of prisons and police part. Well, maybe not get rid of, but we could definitely tone that shit way down.
At that point in the book, the infected were being cured. Maybe there was potential for them to return to the zombie-ish state they were in, but anyone who wasn't prepared to defend themselves by then was asking to be eaten. I rarely leave my house unarmed. After the first zombie attack, I guarantee you I never will.
I used to be kind of a maniac too, especially behind the wheel. It's amazing I never had a heart attack when I drove a cab in NY. After I moved away from my family and quit drinking whiskey I turned into a different person.
Here are the questions for section three:
1. It turns out that the “zombies” in Jordan’s Brains aren’t actually dead. Do you think humans that turn into unemotional, flesh-eating monsters can still be considered zombies if they’re not dead (example: 28 Days Later)? I know this is a sensitive subject for many zombie fans, but I’m interested in hearing your thoughts.
2. While roaming around as a zombie, Jordan was on an emotional roller coaster. Sometimes Jordan felt guilty for killing and eating humans, but at other times felt it was natural for zombies to attack people when said humans were making typical horror movie mistakes (like walking alone into a pitch-black basement to investigate a strange noise). Do you like the idea of intelligent zombies in books and movies, or do you prefer zombies that are unable to think and feel?