What I hate about First Person Perspective (fiction)

[Lori S.]

One of my pet-peeves about first person perspective in books is if I don't make the connection with the main character I never really learn his/her name. I'm over halfway through Clean by Alex(andra) Hughes and I still don't know the main character's first name. I know he's a 8th level telepath and has a drug habit, works as a consultant for the Atalanta PD and the lady he partners with is a lot like J.D. Robb's main character in her ... In Death books. But, the connection is tenuous at best.

[Roger]

How incredibly infuriating not to know. There are many devices in 1st person to let the reader know who the "I" is. People think that way, tell themselves off, using their name. And what's to stop someone else in dialog saying the name?

[Lori S.]

I have looked and will keep an eye open, but I'm over two hundred pages in now and I still haven't come across a name for the character. It is very frustrating that I don't even have a way to tell you this guy's name, from the book at least.


I have read a number of really good first person books over the years, but this is the first time I've encountered one where even the other characters don't mention the guy's name. LOL

[Eric]

Just out of curiosity, why does the name matter?

Granted, most 1st person stories let you know who's speaking at any given moment (if the POV switches between characters as it does in my LHNB story, The Song, and the upcoming The Meeting) or if the entire story is from one person's POV you'll find out. And there's a certain...emotional?...satisfaction in knowing the name of a character.

But in this particular book, looking at it objectively (and as I've not read the book, I have no personal knowledge) what difference will it make to your understanding of the character, his motives, his conduct, his interactions with others, the plot, the villains, his partner, etc., if you know his name is John, Esteban, Vladimir, Sven or something else?

Perhaps you might just decide in your own mind that his "voice" is exactly what you'd expect of a guy named Juan Carlos living in Atlanta. Or whatever. And now that you "know" his name, you can forget about it and just re-absorb yourself in the book.

Just a thought..and more of my USD .02.

Eric

[Lori S.]

Eric Alan wrote: "Just out of curiosity, why does the name matter?"

I have encountered a number of memorable characters in 1st POV books over the years - Harry Dresden, Alex Verus, Peter Grant ... all of them have let us in on who they are within a few pages of the books in which they appear. I like knowing who I am 'interacting' with when I'm reading, even if it's a short story (unless there's a really good reason for not giving out the name, like an experimental attempt on the author's part). I like being able to latch on to names of characters.

You're right, of course, knowing the name won't make a difference to who the character is in the end, but knowing the name will make him all the more memorable, even if in the end I don't care for the book itself. Which isn't the case here. I do like the book, it's a fast read, even if the author is traveling down well traveled roads of cliche of the genre.

I do think she could have done well without bringing in the whole "sexual tension" nonsense. I had a higher opinion of the main character before that noise. Sigh.

[Boyd, Hunk of hunky burning passion]

You could not name your pet, but would you feel it's a family member you loved without a name?

[Lori S.]

Boyd wrote: "You could not name your pet, but would you feel it's a family member you loved without a name?"

A good question.
I find that even the cats we feed outside tend to get names if they stick around long enough, so I think it's it's part of the human propensity to name even creatures that don't have official status in the household directly. If that made sense? By naming animals we accept their presence in our lives, no matter how temporary.

Also, humans are just a bloody possessive lot by nature. If I name it, it's mine.

[Roger]

I'm reading which is 1st-person, and you only have to wait a few pages to discover his name, which is done brilliantly by fooling you about his relationships with the other named characters he talks about.

[Lori S.]

I looked at the book above and it seems to be one of those you either hate or love. An interesting idea and now I'm curious to know just what two 15 year olds could do that was so horrific ...

Spoilage ahead:
As for the book I was reading - the main character finally tells us his name in the last paragraph and last page of the book; in fact, it's the very last word of the story. Sigh. In case you really give a rip about the guy's name: (view spoiler)[Adam (hide spoiler)]

[Roger]

…and Eve it!

It's actually rather horrific, I just got there. But it's the fact that Dad "I" is slowly emerging as internally a volcano of repressed violence, so it's getting very interesting.

[Lori S.]

OK all you writer flavor types: what's the fascination with first person present tense?

I sometimes think authors who write in this mode do purely to tick their readers off. I could, of course quit reading the book I guess but I'm about 12 chapters in at this point and don't want to waste the $8 I spent buying the book. Sigh.

[Jaye]

Lori wrote: "OK all you writer flavor types: what's the fascination with first person present tense?

I sometimes think authors who write in this mode do purely to tick their readers off. I could, of course qui..."

Hmm, I don't know. As a reader I detest all flavors of present tense. It doesn't feel right, and it kind of pulls me out of the story.

As I writer, I find it gives me a more intimate, immediate feel for the character, if that makes sense, but I only ever use it in my writing when I'm brainstorming and trying to get into a character's head. But that's all it ever is--an exercise that will never see the light of day.

[Lori S.]

Jaye wrote: "Hmm, I don't know. As a reader I detest all flavors of present tense. It doesn't feel right, and it kind of pulls me out of the story.

That's my feeling too. I feel like it's a method to distance the reader from the characters rather than bring them closer. Also, I find I actually lose track of the action faster than I would other types of writing.

As I writer, I find it gives me a more intimate, immediate feel for the character, if that makes sense, but I only ever use it in my writing when I'm brainstorming ..."

The brainstorming idea makes a lot of sense.

[Jaye]

Lori wrote: "The brainstorming idea makes a lot of sense."

Yeah, it's really helpful when I'm stuck on What the heck would he be thinking right about now? Running through a scene in first person present puts you right there, and you really can't gloss over anything.

ETA: You would think that because it gives the writer a more intimate handle on what's going on, it would do that for the reader, too. But I don't find that it does. Like you said, it seems to create distance more than anything. Weird.

[Roger]

I think I'm with the majority, as a reader, that first-person doesn't always feel right, but there are novels I've read that could never have been as powerful in third-person. As a writer, I don't think I would write an entire novel from a single person's POV in first-person, but I do enjoy the frisson that aries between two or three interacting first-person POVs. I point to the story "Knowing Felix" in Felixitations, which has three POVs. Doing this allows for the each person to be an unreliable narrator of the others, the contradictions and conflicts making the drama. The novella What's A Boy Supposed to Do has two guys talking first-person, and again I was able to play them off against each other in, hopefully, interesting ways.

So I would never put the use of first-person down, but I do think it has to be handled very well, and with caution. Whether I did in those examples is a matter for the reader!

[Lori S.]

Roger wrote: "I think I'm with the majority, as a reader, that first-person doesn't always feel right, but there are novels I've read that could never have been as powerful in third-person. ..."

Oh there are definitely books using 1st person-present tense I have read which are very memorable; The Men from the Boys is an excellent example. I am rather tempted to buy it and the other two books in the series just so I don't have to borrow them from the library again. Though Jeff (the main narrator in the books) is a complete donkey's backside, he still an interesting character.

The problem is that not every author who writes in that mode through an entire book can pull it off well. Blacker than Black is one of those books, which, though it's gotten great reviews, fails to keep me entertained or interested. At this point, I'm reading it out of shear perversity.

I do enjoy first person perspective when it's done well.(Midnight Riot by Ben Aaronovitch introduced Peter Grant who is snarky, clever, and funny for instance.)

The novella What's A Boy Supposed to Do has two guys talking first-person, and again I was able to play them off against each other in, hopefully, interesting ways.

I really enjoyed being able to see through all the MCs' perspectives. You have a knack for description which brings the action alive and I could actually see them playing their matches pretty clearly. (The same goes for the battles in Gregory's Story and A Life Apart.) Billy and Adriano are sweet together and balance each other quite well.

However, I must say: poor Paddington! I am grateful you didn't give a view from the bear's perspective.

[Roger]

Lori wrote: "However, I must say: poor Paddington! I am grateful you didn't give a view from the bear's perspective...."

Lori, thanks for the inspiration. I must start straight away. I can see it now, I'll open from a view high up on the shelf of Billy's locker. I'll probably be idly musing Pooh-like on my earlier life in Peru, when suddenly…

[Lori S.]

[Rick]

Re #6 & 7

Actually I even name my cars: my first was Kaneda (RIP)& my second is Kiriyama

But I'd get a bit frustrated and distracted if I didn't know the name of the character - unless that information or uncertainty of said information was integral to the plot.

[Lori S.]

Here's another thing I hate about the 1st POV/present tense - if the 1st POV character is boring, then why the heck am I reading the story? I have stalled out on Blacker Than Black, not just because the story is boring, but because the author commits the heinous sin of writing a boring character. He has no personality nor a sense of humor, irony or anything to relieve the tedium. Sigh.

[Eric]

Lori wrote: "Here's another thing I hate about the 1st POV/present tense - if the 1st POV character is boring, then why the heck am I reading the story? I have stalled out on Blacker Than Black, not just becaus..."

I'm going to weigh in more fully on the POV issue later, but, respectfully, what does the POV or tense have to do with a boring/no-personality/no-humor/no-irony lead character? If that character is that way in 1st person, present tense, why would anyone believe that character, being written by that author, would suddenly become engaging, acquire a marvelous personality, and like June, bust out all over with wit, humor, irony and/or perspicacity, just because the tense changes or the POV changes?

Just a thought.

Eric

[Lori S.]

If the tense and the POV changed, the author could get into the heads of other, far more interesting characters, like Black's sister Jhez and quite possibly relieve the tedium. Maybe.

You are right, it shouldn't make any difference, but I spent 8 bucks on this stupid book and the money's going to waste now. Sigh.

[Rick]

I agree that shifting perspective can relieve the tedium of bad writing, and there in lies the challenge of writing from first person - but it takes a good author to realize vivid characters that can propel the reader through the narrative. Imagine a one-person theatre performance with a really bad actor - who would want to sit through that.

[Preston, Moderator]

Roger wrote: "...So I would never put the use of first-person down, but I do think it has to be handled very well, and with caution. Whether I did in those examples is a matter for the reader! ..."

Having read Felixitations and What's A Boy Supposed to Do I thought 'Knowing Felix' flowed perfectly and was my favorite part of the book and as for What's A Boy Supposed to Do it couldn't have been any clearer with the two POV in first person. It would have been hard to understand the motivations without having the two characters with first person contributions to the story. It certainly added to the terror caused by the bad guy.

But then I haven't read a book by Roger Kean that I did not think was a five star, top notch, ingenious book.

[Roger]

Preston wrote: "But then I haven't read a book by Roger Kean that I did not think was a five star, top notch, ingenious book...."

AAaww… :::blush:::

[Rick]

Preston wrote: "But then I haven't read a book by Roger Kean that I did not think was a five star, top notch, ingenious book."

I know! What is it with that guy - it's like he's brilliant of something? What's up with that? Not to mention that insanely talented artist-guy who draws all those beautiful pictures in his books - how does he get so lucky? Talented, good looking AND got the hottest artist around on tap - geez.

[Roger]

Rick wrote: "AND got the hottest artist around on tap - geez...."

The "hottest talent artist" took a lot of "getting," let me tell you :-))

[Lori S.]

Roger wrote: "Rick wrote: "AND got the hottest artist around on tap - geez...."

The "hottest talent artist" took a lot of "getting," let me tell you :-))"

Means he was worth all you had getting him then. :-)

[Roger]

Such a simple truth, Lori :-))

[[deleted user]]

I don't like too much tangential flow. The best person who can do it is Thomas Pynchon, imo.

I don't like narrtive furst person POV jumps. Too trendy. The best person who can do it is David Mitchell, imo.

[[deleted user]]

I don't like toi much navel gazing, what-ifs and why fors... the best person who I think can do it is Jack Kerouac, imo.

[[deleted user]]

Everything I write could be 1st person narrative "creative non-fiction". It's hyper- self-aware. For example I don't like much memoir... especially by people who are younger than 50. Sure there are exceptions. But I don't like how memoirs have become so trendy. Especially memoirs / confessions of boozers and addicts. There is only so much I can take because it always reads the same. And sometimes not memoir at all... for example the controversial book " a million little pieces" i forget. It was a best seller and then revealed to be mostly fictional.

[[deleted user]]

I don't like first person POV that is unreliable narrator, for the most part. But there are exceptions. One Flew Over the Cukoo's nest is good example.

I don't like narratives about poor little rich kids with bad habits. I don't like narratives about slinging sex... paying for college , turning tricks, it's such a cliché.

[[deleted user]]

Examples of not very good, imo... is the Bell Jar. I don't want to read anymore about real life in a white privilege, straight privilege , weird book. The Bell Jar has turned me off to every self-pity, victim-crap. I don't even think she was that good a poet. Anne Sexton much better. And she and Sylvia Plath both killed themselves. Ugh. artists.

[[deleted user]]

Roger wrote: "Preston wrote: "But then I haven't read a book by Roger Kean that I did not think was a five star, top notch, ingenious book...."

AAaww… :::blush:::"

I need to read these. Forgive my seeming bias to POV shifts. I don't like what is readily available at my library. Anyhoo, I have mused a great deal on POV shift. Not only in books but also film and tv. I imagine the first POV shift novels are epistolary stories, exchanging written letters. The first novel I can think of that employs this is Bram Stoker's Dracula. Can anyone think of earlier example? Maybe not from English Literature?

[[deleted user]]

Almost everything on television now is influenced by POV shift. I believe the Sopranos on HBO was first to really exploit it. And prior to that the shows that interwove character archs were daytime soap opera, I guess. I don't have much experience watching daytime tv... and as an aside most daytime soap operas with exception of the telenovela are closing up shop.

About "Walking Dead" for example... or its spin off... it's another show I haven't watched because zombies aren't my cuppa tea.
George Romero , (director of Night of the Living Dead) was invited to direct an episode and he said no. Stating that Walking Dead was a soap opera.

[[deleted user]]

I believe the primary influence of POV jumping is the work of Quentin Tarantino. Both his scripts and his films. Most notably Pulp Fiction (1994) . The movie changed everything.

[[deleted user]]

About first person present tense. I have to look at some of the contemporary novels from the 1980s. Specifically the work of Bret Easton Ellis. He went to Bennington College... which is in Vermont and has a poor little rich kid reputation, I guess. I don't know if it still is the most expensive tuition school still... but it was for most the 80s and 90s. A good look at the characteristics of the school is Ellis' Rules of Attraction... that may not be the correct title. Employs many many POV jumps. I forget about 1st person, present tense....

Yet I was for the most part schooled in Vermont public schools... (American public ... not to be mistaken with Brit-speak)
I was being educated in writing... about the same time Bret Easton Ellis books were released. My writing teacher drilled it into our heads that first person present tense was what he preferred to read.

So it may be as simple as that... idk. Kids in school in the late 80s... early 90s. Either university level or high school level were getting drilled on how to write... more likely how to write to please teacher.
First person , present tense, is often a device used to speed up the narrative. Short chapters as well. Faster pace is used for various reasons.

[Lori S.]

I think it really depends on the part of the country you were in and how snobbish the English teachers were at the time, but I never got drilled on the first person present tense thing in school - high school or college (80s-90s and yeah even into 2005 since I was a slow poke and worked my way through college).

The first time I really started encountering this annoying form of writing was in online freebie and fan fiction, most of which are written by people in their teens and twenties, in the early 2000s.

[[deleted user]]

Lori S. wrote: "I think it really depends on the part of the country you were in and how snobbish the English teachers were at the time, but I never got drilled on the first person present tense thing in school - ..."
Well said. We have more in common than books. I too took my time. I had no intention of going to college until I was 22. Also worked in day and took night school. Adult learner. Massachusetts College of Art, Boston. And a few years later won a scholarship for Wellesley College.

I am from one of the snobby places in USA. Although Vermont is not so much as Boston. I didn't perform well in high school English.
But it's a subjective grading system, isn't it?

I grateful to have traveled between 17and 22. I also traveled periodically during school years. I've had an interruption to my studies, of course. I'd love to return to school. Ironic.

There is a cliché. Education is wasted on the young.
But I like to switch it up. And say:
Cynicism is wasted on the young.

A best-selling novel of the current day in first person present tense with POV shifts is All the Light We Cannot See. It's not a book I would have chosen b/c I don't like WW2 stories. For the most part it works. I don't know why popular culture likes this current format.
Maybe due to attention spans. Also as a young person, I was often drilled to write what I know... yet at that time I knew nothing!

First person narrative can help me get into a book faster. But I prefer third person limited or third person omniscient. It has more to do with how well I identify with the voice of the novel. There is not much time for reading for pleasure when enrolled in school... but I got to read what I liked on the train rides.

That time you mention 99-2000. I still read more travel guides than other books... also Harry Potter was soon released. Another high water mark in readership. Harry Potter has changed everything too. No brainer. :)

[Bethany]

Wasn't Harry Potter written in a third-person omniscient style? I forget. I seem to remember it jumping around a lot, and there were definitely scenes where Harry wasn't present.

I write in first-person and third-person both. I'm not sure why I choose which way to write - I just seem to go with what feels most natural for the story. Often if I have a character who is lost inside their own mind a lot, I write in first-person so I can write out their rambling thought processes. For fun.

The one I'm working on now is a third-person limited POV. The main character isn't really prone to navel-gazing, so a first-person POV wouldn't be ideal.

[Roger]

Bethany wrote: "I write in first-person and third-person both. I'm not sure why I choose which way to write - I just seem to go with what feels most natural for the story."

I agree!

[Lori S.]

Bethany wrote: "Wasn't Harry Potter written in a third-person omniscient style? I forget. I seem to remember it jumping around a lot, and there were definitely scenes where Harry wasn't present.

I write in first-..."

Yes. And we got several different perspectives on the action, depending on the age of the kids. It's a rarity these in these days when first person present tense is so inexplicably popular, especially for YA/NA books. Though I have read books written in this tense style, I find I generally end up with a low level feeling of irritation at the end of the book rather than one of enjoyment.

I really don't have a problem with reading first person, especially if the author is capable of conveying information from other characters in a manner that makes sense. Some authors are not very good at it though.