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Claire's Return from the Future
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You know I was wondering the same thing. I think the reason was that she didn't get pregnant because of her age but I still think with how randy they together, it was still possible. Plus, maybe it's just because I'm still bummed at all the time lost, but I kinda wish they would've have another lil one together that they can actually bring up as a couple. Claire and Jamie were definitely of age in Voyager and 'Drums'.One thing I was wondering about: why was Claire still so insistent to be close to Frank after she returned? I understand when she went back to raise Bree, she thought Jamie was dead and everything was finalized. But why cling to Frank when she finally returns to Jamie. I'm talking about the whole ring thing from 'Drums'. I loved the little character building moments but some of the points near the end had me scratching my head.
Was anyone else like this?
I can see what your saying about the rings. Especially when she knew that Frank cheated on her. I realize that he knew that she had loved Jamie more than him, but Jamie was definately out of the picture. So why cheat? It wasn't as though Claire wasn't beautiful any more, we know that men thought about her in the rest of the books. I think that he was never in love with her the way she was with him before she met Jamie. He seemed disconected right from the first of the series. He has gone to war and she didn't have the same connection that they had before. It just continued after she came back from Jamie. I guess maybe we get to see how Jamie and Claire are with the Grand kids to see what they would have been like as parents together. We definately get a picture of how fierce and protective he is about Bree when Roger finally shows up at the Ridge. But stangely it doesnt talk about him having the same feelings about Willie. Interesting.
I can see what your saying about the rings. Especially when she knew that Frank cheated on her. I realize that he knew that she had loved Jamie more than him, but Jamie was definately out of the picture. So why cheat? It wasn't as though Claire wasn't beautiful any more, we know that men thought about her in the rest of the books. I think that he was never in love with her the way she was with him before she met Jamie. He seemed disconected right from the first of the series. He has gone to war and she didn't have the same connection that they had before. It just continued after she came back from Jamie. I guess maybe we get to see how Jamie and Claire are with the Grand kids to see what they would have been like as parents together. We definately get a picture of how fierce and protective he is about Bree when Roger finally shows up at the Ridge. But stangely it doesnt talk about him having the same feelings about Willie. Interesting.
I can see what your saying about the rings. Especially when she knew that Frank cheated on her. I realize that he knew that she had loved Jamie more than him, but Jamie was definately out of the picture. So why cheat? It wasn't as though Claire wasn't beautiful any more, we know that men thought about her in the rest of the books. I think that he was never in love with her the way she was with him before she met Jamie. He seemed disconected right from the first of the series. He has gone to war and she didn't have the same connection that they had before. It just continued after she came back from Jamie. I guess maybe we get to see how Jamie and Claire are with the Grand kids to see what they would have been like as parents together. We definately get a picture of how fierce and protective he is about Bree when Roger finally shows up at the Ridge. But stangely it doesnt talk about him having the same feelings about Willie. Interesting.
Exactly! I picked up on that as well. And they seemed to grow even more distant when she came back from the past. Jamie always seemed to be the one she melded with and the one she was destined to be with all her life. Frank was just...there for convenience.That's a good point. I guess that's a plus that the focus shifted to Bree and Roger in the later books, to show how the family unit is especially between Jamie and Claire and the grandkids. I didn't notice that about Willie though. Ooooh. I wonder if it'll be explored in 'Echo' because the blurb alludes to the clash that will happen once the secret is out. Argh. Is it September yet? :-)
Rae wrote: "Exactly! I picked up on that as well. And they seemed to grow even more distant when she came back from the past. Jamie always seemed to be the one she melded with and the one she was destined to b..."I think maybe Jamie seem as protective with Willie becaue Lord John is still the person Willie views as his father and maybe Jamie doesn't feel that it his place to be fiercely protective out of respect for Lord John. With Brianna, Frank is dead and Jamies is her only living father at this time and in this place. There is nothing stopping him from being her father in every way.
You may be right Leslie, I'm really hoping that we will find out a little more about Willie in echo. I know one of the exerpts has him in the swamp somewhere during the war. It will be interesting to se where DG goes with him.
In my opinion I feel Frank had been cheating on Claire from the beginning of the book. I think when she came back from being with Jamie; he stayed with Claire to portray the hero. He could not publicly turn her away while she was pregnant, without looking bad. She would have been disconnected from him which would be the reason he continued to cheat on her.
I am looking forward to hearing more about Willie and Lord John Grey. Since reading the Lord John books I enjoy his character more.
I am looking forward to hearing more about Willie and Lord John Grey. Since reading the Lord John books I enjoy his character more.
I totally agree Jennifer! I always got that feeling from Frank. He wasn't the hero that he tried to fool Claire into beleiving. I think he had affairs during the war, then probably continued after he came back and when she came back from Jamie. LJG is someone I didn't like to much the first time through the books, but now he kind of intrigues me. I haven't read the LJG books, but I think I'll give them a try.
I have the utmost pity for Frank. It's easy to get caught up in the Jamie and Claire love story, but when you put yourself in Frank's shoes... I think he loved her. He lost her to some man in the past. She got pregnant to this man in the past. She never got over him. People are always so hard on Frank and I just think, "She was the one who left him. By choice. If it weren't for Culloden she'd never have come back.". No doubt Frank knew that because Claire told him. WHY he remained married to her, I don't know. Maybe he thought he could get her back. And he fell in love with little Bree. From all accounts he was a great dad, and even took into consideration that Bree might want to go back, so he took her shooting and riding etc.Before anyone misjudges Frank I think they should think what would happen if this person you married and loved disappeared, then came back and was madly in love with someone else? Frank didn't abandon her because she was pregnant. Claire could have left. She didn't need to wait for Frank to leave her. But she didn't leave either. And she sleeps with Frank again. That has bothered me to no end. It seemed opportunistic or convenient. It's hilarious to me that Claire would get angry because Frank was with other women, when she was quite freely bonking Jamie all over the Scottish countryside and France. Tsk, tsk Claire.
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I do think Frank was cheating on her from the very beginning while they were apart during the war. I also think Frank stayed with Claire because he wanted to have children. Before Claire went back in time she thought she was the reason that her and Frank couldn't get pregnant. When she came back pregnant it was clear that Frank was the reason. I think he thought this would be his only chance to raise a child. Even if it wasn't his.
Frank was all about the image. Although he loved the baby, he didn't feel that he could leave Claire after she came back. I think that he did love Claire in his own way, but the image of the strong, smart professor made it easy to have affairs.
I get that Frank was the one who got hurt first...I just don't think it hurt him that much. Maybe it's because we don't see much of him in the series, but I don't think he loved her very deeply. And I also believe that he really only stayed with her because she had a child. If she wasn't pregnant when she came back, he probably would've been with her for a while, for appearances sake, and then they would've split. Bree really was the glue in that situation.Also, what year was it when Claire came back? I didn't think that it was very common for women to be single mothers back then.
Well, I totally defend Frank. Everything about how Frank felt is supposition. Claire made the decision to say, "Sorry Frank, but I'm not coming back to you. I'm staying here with another man.". I think it was Claire who obviously did not love Frank as much as he loved her.Frank, being who he was, a historian wasn't as exciting as Jamie. Is that Frank's fault? His wife gets pregnant to another man and then only comes back to him when it looks like the man she left him for will die. Even after that he remains married to Claire. I don't think it was about appearances. He took on Bree and honestly loved her. And it's a reflection of Frank that Bree truly loved him.
It's not Frank's fault if Claire was bored with him, or he wasn't her match. Geez, if Jamie wishes he could have fought Frank, how did Frank feel? There was nothing for Jamie to fight for, he'd already won. Then saved Frank as a backup to take care of Claire and his child. They used Frank. Claire used Frank. Frank took care of Bree while Claire went to school, making her becoming a doctor possible.
I see the sadness of the situation, but niether Jamie nor Claire have any reason to be high and mighty about Frank. Frank cheated? So did Claire. Frank always came home. Claire did not.
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Sarah wrote: "I get that Frank was the one who got hurt first...I just don't think it hurt him that much. Maybe it's because we don't see much of him in the series, but I don't think he loved her very deeply. An..."I totally disagree. When Claire was sent against her wished to the 1700s she thought she was lost there forever. She did not think she could get back. She had always planned to try to escape but each opportunity past. She then realized she probably would never get back and that she lost Frank forever and mourned him deeply. It was not until her and Jamie went back to the stones to see if it was even possible for her to go back that she realized she fell in love with Jamie and chose to stay. When she did finally go back it was not only because she thought Jamie was going to die, it was because she knew that both her and the baby would die also. She did not go back to be with Frank, it was for Bree. She then went back and Claire tried to leave Frank right away. She did not stay with him out of convenience. She was honest with him from the start. I think she stayed with him because she did care about him and she respected him. She was always honest with him. I also do not think she ever hated him when he cheated because she knew her heart was with Jamie. I think in the end Claire and Frank used each other. Frank wanted a child and Claire needed someone to be there for her. JMO
FRANK RANDALL- I agree with Renee's defense (messages 11 and 15) of Frank Randall. Frank tried to maintain a marriage, albeit an emotionally disconnected one. Claire did too. Perhaps it is her continuing struggle with unresolved anger towards him, that makes him the villain. And her dissappointment that life with him was not the adventure it was with Jamie.RINGS- Given the struggles she had with her marriage to Frank, Claire's persistence in wearing Frank's gold wedding ring and Jamie's ring at the same time was confusing. This made me question her sincerity, therefore could not trust her commitment to either relationship. However, after reading about Roger's theory that one must wear silver and gold to safely pass through the stones, perhaps this is why DG has Claire keep the gold wedding ring on.
I feel that Claire loved Frank in her own way. She did love him befor the first trip through the stones, and she still did in her own way after she came back. Although she definately tried to be honest about where she had been and who's baby she was having,she tried very hard to make things work, thinking that she would never be able to go back to Jamie. I think that she was devistated when Frank cheated on her, and was definately humiliated at the parties for his colleagues where he was flirting or was making eyes with another woman. Rings: I think that Claire could never give up her commitment to Frank, or the guilt that she felt after he was killed while in a fight with her. She continued to wear both rings feeling married to both men.
In the final pages of Drums of Autumn, Brianna chooses marriage to Roger by wearing the ruby ring. Jamie also wanted Claire to choose whether to wear Frank's gold ring again as he offers her the ring that had been lost. Then accepts Claire's reasoning that '"it was along time ago"', that she was given the ring in another life. HOW MANY MEN WOULD ACCEPT THAT REASON?? '"I would take you from him, my Sassenach-but I wouldna take him from you."' And allows her to wear the ring again- with atonement to Frank's presence in her life. WOW!!! Does Claire realize Jaime's inner-struggle to accept this? Does she care?
I feel that claire is always sensitive to Jamie's feelings. she seem to be constantly in tune with him through out the books, to me. I don't think that all men would be that generous about another mans ring, but he definately isn't all men.
Cindy wrote: "In the final pages of Drums of Autumn, Brianna chooses marriage to Roger by wearing the ruby ring. Jamie also wanted Claire to choose whether to wear Frank's gold ring again as he offers her the ri..."Cindy, I felt Jamie was VERY understanding about the RINGS...after Claire came back for good...I would have made her put her Silver wedding band (If I was Jamie) on her Left hand....that's where it belonged, not on her right hand. I thought it very insensitive on Claire's part. but then again, I thought it insensitive to even keep wearing Frank's ring after her return.
You would think that people would have noticed that Claire wore two wedding bands and wondered..especially Jenny. What do you guys think?
Not knowing the customs of wearing jewelry in 18th century Scotland, I didn't question whether people might think it odd that Claire wore both gold and silver wedding rings. But it bothers me, because I would not wear another man's wedding ring. I have wondered how many modern day women, after separation/divorce and remarriage, continue to wear their other wedding rings.
Well, I can tell you having been divorced for close to 19 years...there is no way I would wear my old rings, especially if I was married to a wonderful, soul mate like Jamie. Claire could at least put her ring from Jamie on her left ring finger. I don't think that the position of the "wedding band" on the left finger has changed throughout the years????Do you?
I also wondered why Jamie placed the silver ring on Claire's right hand when they were married. Was that custom? Or again, Jaime being so understanding that he would not ask her to remove the other ring.
Well...that's what makes him a fictional character AYE? I don't think many if any men would be that understanding. What I don't get.... if Jenny is this sharp, smart lady, why doesn't she ask any questions of Claire and Jamie. I might have missed this on my first read, but does she know about Claire? Where she came from that is?
(Not sure which book this is in)- Jenny and Claire do talk a little to each other about Claire's past. Jenny admits that she herself is a "seer", can see things that others don't, and thinks that Claire has some special talent also- in her past. Jenny does not probe, but admits that whoever Claire is, she has made Jaime happy again. I agree that Jenny's sharpness would lead you to believe that she has noticed the two rings and other behavior (healing the sick), but I think she remains polite and respects that information.
I would have wondered why Claire never wrote to Lallybroch in this time when she and Jamie were seperated. You'd think someone would wonder why Claire couldn't get a message through? Or why she wouldn't have gone to Jared in France to ask after Jamie or the folks at Lallybroch?There's a big hole there.
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Renee wrote: "I would have wondered why Claire never wrote to Lallybroch in this time when she and Jamie were seperated. You'd think someone would wonder why Claire couldn't get a message through? Or why she wou..."Yes, especially once they found out about Bree. You would think they would wonder why Claire hadn't made any attempt to introduce Jamie's daughter to his family. They never ask Bree about that when she is at Lallybroch. I think they know that there is something strange about Claire and something that her and Jamie aren't telling everyone. When young Ian finds out about Claire he replies I knew you weren't a fairy! Maybe they all think she is a fairy or a witch and keep quiet out of respect for Jamie's happiness.
I had the same thoughts, and wondered why Jenny and Ian did not question Jamie about it.
Hmm, and Jenny saying that she knew Claire would come back and take Jamie away again. That's why she told L Claire was there.She accepted what Claire told her about planting the potatoes. Jamie had 'talked' to her. No doubt they all do think Claire is a fairy or somesuch. But, Jamie loves her, so...
Jenny is an interesting woman isn't she? Reading poems and French novels, raising all those kids and beating mattress's.
I've always thought that the main attraction for Jamie toward Claire was that she reminded him of Jenny and home. He'd been away when they first met and there Claire was, a strong woman, taking care of him while telling him what a 'clotheid' he is. That's Jenny all over.
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It's interesting that Jenny is such a likeable character but Claire is more difficult to warm up to. I definitely agree that Jaime sees a bit of Jenny in Claire. Lallybroch is deep in his soul.
wouldn't you love to read a storyline from Jenny's POV? If Jenny "knew" that Claire would be coming back, why on earth would she have Jamie marry L...especially L'%^$#@!
Yes, I think that there was something of 'home' about Claire that rang a bell for Jamie.I'd love to find out what Jenny's thinking. She handles her men so well. :)
I think thought that she has that soft, mothering side that Claire lacks the ability to express. Jenny can be tough as nails one minute and tender mother the next. Even to Jamie. She was mom and sister to Jamie.
Then again, Claire had no one to care for when her parents died. Claire's childhood sounds a lonely one. Yes, she was traveling and seeing places, but there were no real connections.
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Good insights, ladies. My how these books reach into our minds and hearts! I'm starting the Fiery Cross now and hope to continue sharing our observations with each other.
Fiery Cross is one of the top three favs of mine out of the six.Btw, taking our conversation about Jamie and Claire's 'odd behaviour' at times, from the other thread. Did anyone find that they had a 'what the?' moment when Jamie told Claire about Ian and Jenny?
My mind was a bit boggled and I wondered why it was important to pass on the info that Ian uh, spanked Jenny and she liked it? I recommend these books to people and then I think that they're going to think I'm a weirdo for liking them because of all of this abnormality going on. Hahaha.
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In previous disscussion I asked the question:
Isn't it strange that when Claire comes back to Jamie she doesnt get pregnant. They didn't take any precaution's but were worried when Claire is kidnapped and raped that she could be pregnant.
What are your thoughts?