Book Nook Cafe discussion
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The Picture of Dorian Gray - August 15, 2013
Susan wrote: I feel like the "if he shall gain the world ..." is in the book, but I'm not sure.In chapter 11, there is some reference to religion as part of Dorian's exploration.
In chapter 13, Basil asks Dorian to pray - "What is that one was taught to say in one's boyhood? 'Lead us not into temptation. Forgive us our sins. Wash away or iniquities.'"
There may be other references as well, but these stuck in my mind.
In the intro to the book that I have it reads:
"Two ideals were at war in Oscar Wilde- one moral, the other aesthetic. During his student days he briefly thought he might fin the two reconciled i the Catholic Church, with its strict morality and sumptuous ritual. At the same time, however, Hellenism was also drawing him, with its frank sensuality and much shorter list of sins (homosexuality not among them). The opposition of Catholicism and Hellenism might stand roughly for the theme that informs and energizes most of Wilde's best work."
Wiki on Hellenisticreligion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenis...
I also found this online
Deathbed conversion
Author and wit Oscar Wilde converted to Catholicism during his final illness. His friend Robert Ross wrote that "He was conscious that people were in the room, and raised his hand when I asked him whether he understood. He pressed our hands. I then sent in search of a priest, and after great difficulty found Father Cuthbert Dunne ... who came with me at once and administered Baptism and Extreme Unction. – Oscar could not take the Eucharist".[6] While Wilde's conversion may have come as a surprise, he had long maintained an interest in the Catholic Church, having met with Pope Pius IX in 1877 and describing the Roman Catholic Church as "for saints and sinners alone – for respectable people, the Anglican Church will do". However, how much of a believer in all the tenets of Catholicism Wilde ever was is arguable: in particular, against Robert Ross's insistence on the truth of Catholicism, Wilde's insistence "No, Robbie, it isn't true."[7][8][9]
In his sublime poem "Ballad of Reading Gaol", Wilde wrote:
Ah! Happy they whose hearts can break
And peace of pardon win!
How else may man make straight his plan
And cleanse his soul from Sin?
How else but through a broken heart
May Lord Christ enter in?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deathbed...
Susan wrote: If you could assemble a cast (without regard to era, e.g., you could have Hugh Grant play Dorian and Richard Burton play Lord Henry) Who would you cast as Dorian? As Lord Henry? As Basil? As Sibyl? As others?If you could replace the 1945 guy with someone of that era, who would you have cast as Dorian?
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Oh, good question! I do have to say even though I didn't find Dorian handsome, I did like the 1945 movie a lot.
I'll have to think who would fit. I'm not familiar with a lot of actors. The book describes him as an "Adonis".
I think the part calls not for a rugged Marlboro Man handsome but a more innocent angelic beauty.
Alias Reader wrote: "Susan wrote: "In Chapter 11, Dorian refers to the book from Lord Henry and its impact:"Dorian Gray had been poisoned by a book. There were moments when he looked on evil simply as a mode through ..."
The book version does not name the book that Lord Henry gives Dorian. Based on the description, there is speculation that it is: Joris-Karl Huysman's nineteenth-century novel "À Rebours", translated as "Against the Grain" or "Against Nature".
I don't know whether this is actually the book.
Susan wrote: I don't know whether this is actually the book. ================
Against Nature
Joris-Karl HuysmansResisting the traditional model of nineteenth-century fiction, Joris-Karl Huysman produced in 1884 a novel unlike any other of his time. Against Nature is the story of Des Esseintes, an aesthete who attempts to escape Paris and, along with it, the vulgarity of modern life. As Des Esseintes hides away in his museum of high taste, Huysman offers the reader a treasury of cultural delights and anticipates many aspects of twentieth century modernism.
The intro to my book notes,"To better understand the self-deluding and self-destructive Dorian, it may be helpful to use Karen Horney's identification of 3 types of neurotic personalities: social, aggressive, and detached. Dorian displays traits of all of them. In chapter 2 a few extravagant compliments and Basil's portrait throw him into a fit of narcissistic passion; later he relishes drawing public attention as a controversial figure and high society trendsetter, Aggression he shows only once, but ferociously, when out of wounded narcissistic pride he kills Baisl."I am not familiar with Karen Horney's identification of 3 types of neurotic personalities. Are you? Do you think it fits?
I don't recall it mentioned in the movie, but apparently it's in the book the Dorian Gray was a orphan. That played a big part in his need to retain his beauty; the only value he thought he possessed. In that light, Dorian is a rather tragic and more sympathetic figure.
Wikipedia
Karen Horney
Psychoanalyst
Karen Horney was a German psychoanalyst who practiced in the United States during her later career. Her theories questioned some traditional Freudian views.
Born: September 16, 1885, Blankenese
Died: December 4, 1952, New York City, NY
Parents: Berndt Wackels Danielsen, Clotilde Danielsen
Children: Brigitte Horney
Education: Humboldt University of Berlin, Albert Ludwigs University of Freiburg
Her theories questioned some traditional Freudian views. This was particularly true of her theories of sexuality and of the instinct orientation of psychoanalysis. She is credited with founding Feminist Psychology
Horney looked at neurosis in a different light from other psychoanalysts of the time.[5] Her expansive interest in the subject led her to compile a detailed theory of neurosis, with data from her patients. Horney believed neurosis to be a continuous process—with neuroses commonly occurring sporadically in one's lifetime. This was in contrast to the opinions of her contemporaries who believed neurosis was, like more severe mental conditions, a negative malfunction of the mind in response to external stimuli, such as bereavement, divorce or negative experiences during childhood and adolescence.
From her experiences as a psychiatrist, Horney named ten patterns of neurotic needs.[10] These ten needs are based upon things which she thought all humans require to succeed in life.
Moving Toward People
1. The need for affection and approval; pleasing others and being liked by them.
2. The need for a partner; one whom they can love and who will solve all problems.
Moving Against People
3. The need for power; the ability to bend wills and achieve control over others—while most persons seek strength, the neurotic may be desperate for it.
4. The need to exploit others; to get the better of them. To become manipulative, fostering the belief that people are there simply to be used.
5. The need for social recognition; prestige and limelight.
6. The need for personal admiration; for both inner and outer qualities—to be valued.
7. The need for personal achievement; though virtually all persons wish to make achievements, as with No. 3, the neurotic may be desperate for achievement.
Moving Away from People
8. The need for self sufficiency and independence; while most desire some autonomy, the neurotic may simply wish to discard other individuals entirely.
9. The need for perfection; while many are driven to perfect their lives in the form of well being, the neurotic may display a fear of being slightly flawed.
10. Lastly, the need to restrict life practices to within narrow borders; to live as inconspicuous a life as possible.
Upon investigating the ten needs further, Horney found she was able to condense them into three broad categories:
Compliance Needs one and two were assimilated into the "compliance" category. This category is seen as a process of "moving towards people", or self-effacement. Under Horney's theory children facing difficulties with parents often use this strategy. Fear of helplessness and abandonment occurs—phenomena Horney refers to as "basic anxiety". Those within the compliance category tend to exhibit a need for affection and approval on the part of their peers. They may also seek out a partner, somebody to confide in, fostering the belief that, in turn, all of life's problems would be solved by the new cohort. A lack of demands and a desire for inconspicuousness both occur in these individuals.
Aggression Needs three through seven were assimilated into the "aggression" category, also called the "moving against people", or the "expansive" solution. Neurotic children or adults within this category often exhibit anger or basic hostility to those around them. That is, there is a need for power, a need for control and exploitation, and a maintenance of a facade of omnipotence. Manipulative qualities aside, under Horney's assertions the aggressive individual may also wish for social recognition, not necessarily in terms of limelight, but in terms of simply being known (perhaps feared) by subordinates and peers alike. In addition, the individual has needs for a degree of personal admiration by those within this person's social circle and, lastly, for raw personal achievement. These characteristics comprise the "aggressive" neurotic type. Aggressive types also tend to keep people away from them. On the other hand, they only care about their wants and needs. They would do whatever they can to be happy and wouldn't desist from hurting anyone.
Detachment Needs eight through ten were assimilated into the "detachment" category, also called the "moving-away-from" or "resigning" solution or a detached personality. As neither aggression nor compliance solve parental indifference, Horney recognized that children might simply try to become self-sufficient. The withdrawing neurotic may disregard others in a non-aggressive manner, regarding solitude and independence as the way forth. The stringent needs for perfection comprise another part of this category; those withdrawing may strive for perfection above all else, to the point where being flawed is utterly unacceptable. Everything the "detached" type does must be unassailable and refined. They suppress or deny all feelings towards others, particularly love and hate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_H...
Karen HorneyNarcissism
Horney saw narcissism quite differently from Freud, Kohut and other mainstream psychoanalytic theorists in that she did not posit a primary narcissism but saw the narcissistic personality as the product of a certain kind of early environment acting on a certain kind of temperament. For her, narcissistic needs and tendencies are not inherent in human nature.
Narcissism is different from Horney's other major defensive strategies or solutions in that it is not compensatory. Self-idealization is compensatory in her theory, but it differs from narcissism. All the defensive strategies involve self-idealization, but in the narcissistic solution it tends to be the product of indulgence rather than of deprivation. The narcissist's self-esteem is not strong, however, because it is not based on genuine accomplishments
This seems to fit Dorian. He could not paint like Basil or sing or act like Sibyl Vane. He also wasn't witty like Lord Henry. His only "talent" was his beauty. I can see how he would sell his soul to the devil to keep his youth. Without his beauty how could he hope to be loved? This need for love may also play into his being orphaned.
Alias Reader wrote: "Susan wrote: If you could assemble a cast (without regard to era, e.g., you could have Hugh Grant play Dorian and Richard Burton play Lord Henry) Who would you cast as Dorian? As Lord Henry? As Bas..."I agree. I had a hard time coming up with someone "angelic" from the 1945 era, particularly a Brit from that time. Many of the Brits from that time (and many other actors) didn't have that pretty look. I looked to see who was born in the 1920s, who would have been the right age for the film and the closest I could find was a young Roger Moore (born in 1927).
From other times, perhaps those coming closest to what I would see are Anthony Andrews, who was Sebastian in Brideshead Revisited or a young Hugh Grant. Both I think had that "beauty" but also a compelling personality and charm. I'm sure there are others who had that angelic quality when they were about 20: Jude Law, Ralph Finnes, etc. I'm sure there are more, especially in the past 30 years or so, but I haven't kept up with who's who in terms of having the looks and the acting chops.
Taking it out of the "British" list for births in the 1920s: Montgomery Clift, John Derek, Paul Newman and Tony Curtis could have potentially struck the balance, especially Clift.
I agree about the 1945 film being a good one. I think George Sanders was excellent as Lord Henry and I'd keep him. Most of the rest of the cast could stay, though I'd recast James Vane, who is about 16 at the beginning of the book - not sure who should go here.
I don't recall it mentioned in the movie, but apparently it's in the book the Dorian Gray was a orphan. That play a big part in his need to retain his beauty; the only value he thought he possessed. In that light, Dorian is a rather tragic and more sympathetic figure. Yes, he's an orphan. His mother is described as "extraordinarily beautiful". His father was killed in a duel shortly after their marriage. Mom died about a year later. He was raised by "an old and loveless man" who was his grandfather, who was rather a tyrant and who may have hired a man to dueled with/kill Dorian's father. (chapter 3)
Alias Reader wrote: "This from the intro may shed light on DG motivation."Believing he has no other value than his suddenly revealed beauty, he wishes it might never decline;" ..."
As i read this comment, i wondered if this story has ever been rewritten (you know how novelists love to do this!) with a female Dorian. Maybe one of the things which stands out is that this Dorian feels all he has to offer is his beauty, a situation many women of that era apparently felt, deprived as they were, of a true education. This is particularly true of young women without money.
I've really liked reader ideas about who could portray characters from this book. I'm at a loss, probably more because i am not rereading the book, just drawing upon my notes. Additionally, casting movies (in my head) isn't something i tend to do well. I go for concept. For instance, it would be a charge to begin to film this movie in the beginning of some handsome actor's career, then stop. Later, the same actor would portray Lord Henry. I suppose this comes from imagining an actor such as Ralph Finnes, for example, going well in either role.
I skimmed the info about Horney & her theories. From what i read & remember, her ideas rather conform (confirm, perhaps?) with Dorian as we see him. Adding this component helps us see him in a somewhat different, more generous, light. At least i am cutting him more slack.
Alias, you used an expression i don't know when you wrote Dorian played the Egyptian cat. Is that from the book? I tried to find an online genesis for the saying but couldn't find more than that the Egyptian Cat Goddess is Bast.
Alias, I came across the following wiki entry:"The Dorian Gray syndrome is characterized by a triad of symptoms combining diagnostic signs of dysmorphophobia, narcissistic character traits, and arrests in psychic maturation often seen in paraphilias. Dorian Gray patients frequently are excessive users of "medical lifestyle" products." It's NOT a recongnized disorder, but there you go!
Deb, I did come across the movie "The Sins of Dorian Gray" in which Dorian is a woman: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086315/. I'm thinking it's not quite Citizen Kane, but it does have Anthony Perkins as Lord Henry, which could be interesting.
The cat was not in the book - my guess is that the film used it as a stand in for "unusual philosophies" that they didn't want to discuss! A lot of what was in Chapter 11 about Dorian's exploration of theories, art, religion, etc. was not included in the movie.
Madrano wrote: "Alias, you used an expression i don't know when you wrote Dorian played the Egyptian cat. Is that from the book? I tried to find an online genesis for the saying but couldn't find more than that the Egyptian Cat Goddess is Bast. ----------------
LOL The genesis is my brain taking a holiday. Also typing too quickly and making no sense. I meant to write Blamed the Egyptian cat. (this is in the movie. I still am reading the book, so I don't know if it in the novel also.)
I've gone back and corrected my post to make sense. Sorry !
I also will go back over the posts and reply once I read the book. I hope to finish it up by Sunday perhaps. I just didn't want anyone to think I was ignoring them.
No worries, Alias. This has been a fun thread and I'll be happy to revisit after you read the book.I'm moving on to my next book - I think it will be A Passage to India. I also want to go back and answer some of the questions for the Brave New World group read.
I'm supposed to be starting War and Peace this week, but I'm not quite in the mood right now, so I think next week I'll start that one. I'm reading it with a group - about 100 pages/week over the next 14 weeks!
First of all, thanks for the explanation of that darned cat! Susan wrote: "Deb, I did come across the movie "The Sins of Dorian Gray" in which Dorian is a woman: ..."
Thanks, Susan. The link makes it sound as though this female Dorian made an active pact to become a star. Not really Dorian but close enough. The idea of Anthony Perkins as Lord Henry would be divine. You know who would be better? Roddy McDowall. Imo.
I just found an audio copy of Dorian Gray read by Simon Vance. So I put myself on the library request list. Alias<<< happy dance !
Chapter 1What immediately struck me was the character of Basil. In the book he clearly is in love with Dorian. The movie, in my opinion, toned down the homosexual aspect. I guess because of the times. (1945)
For those that saw the 2009 movie was this aspect of the novel toned down in that version?
Sorry but i don't remember that aspect. It makes sense the earlier movie would but the latter was filmed in an era where homosexual angles wouldn't be blurred. Interesting and one wonders if this was intended to be part of the hedonistic society or a way to indicate that this was a hidden but somewhat accepted part of their circle? Or something else entirely.deb, hedging her bets
The 2009 film did include Basil's attraction, which became, er, quite explicit as the film went on! Let's just say, there was a lot of partying with various partners - Dorian and Basil hooked up. Very little was toned down in this version, except perhaps the philosophical components of the story.In the book, I got the impression that Basil's attraction was strongest while he was working on the portrait. I think this was supposed to help convey the fact that there was something odd about the portrait (or about Lord Henry, if drawing the parallel with the Faust "devil"). Basil commented that it almost painted itself - it's like everything was heightened by some unseen force, including Basil's love/lust for Dorian.
After he was away from the painting, his feelings for Dorian continued but were a little less "desperate", it seemed to me.
As I continue to read the book it is clear if one reads between the lines that Basil and Lord Henry are talking about homosexuality. It's interesting that Dorian is shown as such a blank canvas, if you will, for Lord Henry to influence him so.
Did you all enjoy Lord Henry's epigrams? I think they are overdone. Most are nonsensical and after awhile I find it annoying. I guess that is the comic effect he is going for.
I was trying to establish a short time-line for Wilde's life.
Born- 1854
Married Constance Lloyd 1884
The couple had two sons, Cyril (1885) and Vyvyan (1886).
Publish Dorian Gray in Lippincott's Monthly Magazine 1890
The Importance of Being Earnest 1895
Wilde was arrested for "gross indecency"
He went to prison in 1897
Wilde was imprisoned first in Pentonville Prison and then Wandsworth Prison in London. Inmates followed a regimen of "hard labour, hard fare and a hard bed", which wore very harshly on Wilde
He died destitute in Paris at the age of forty-six. 1900
Wilde was the sole literary signatory of George Bernard Shaw's petition for a pardon of the anarchists arrested (and later executed) after the Haymarket massacre in Chicago in 1886.[52]I read about the Haymarket riots most recently when I read A People's History of the United States: 1492 to Present~Howard Zinn
Statue of Oscar Wilde in Merrion Square, Dublin. The materials are granite, green nephrite jade, white jadeite and thulite.
I don't think i've ever seen a statue of that sort in the "wild", so to speak. Interesting colors & SO appropriate for him.
I downloaded the audio today. I think I've got all the bases covered. LOL Movie, book and now audio. The reader is quite good. Simon Vance.
I'll be interested to hear your thoughts about how they all compare!I've been taking a bit of a break over the past couple of days, but hope to get back to reading and commenting soon.
So far I enjoyed the movie a lot.I am still reading the novel. Though it's a re-read for me.
The audio is very good. The reader is nice and clear. I listened to it on a short 2 mile walk today.
I haven't been able to get hold of the movie version. When it comes to casting of Dorian, I'm thinking a young Orlando Bloom, Jude Law or Hugh Grant. I don't know any of the younger actors.The Oscar Wilde statue in the Dublin park is terrific.
I just watched another version of the film - 1976 from the BBC's Play of the Month series. This one is for TV and is obviously on a set and is quite stagy. The production values and music need some serious help. Throughout, it feels a bit too melodramatic, which is not helped by the cheesy music! I tend to like these little "plays for TV" or at least they don't bother me.The actors in the play (John Gielgud is Lord Henry, Jeremy Brett is Basil, and Peter Firth is Dorian) are excellent. Had they been put into a "real" filmed version, this team would have been pretty great, I think - they did a fabulous job with what they had.
Gielgud is very good - he conveys the snobbishness, humor, clever arrogance, etc. He and George Sanders are pretty evenly matched as Henry. Toward the end, his aging make-up was terrible and really for the stage, not for a TV movie - it looks like a combination of a clown and an aging drag queen - the rest of the make-up is fine, so it makes his stand out even more.
Peter Firth is excellent as Dorian - he is handsome, has a youthful energy and yet also understands how to behave in society. He hits the mark that the other two Dorians I've seen have not. He has both the depth and the beauty to play Dorian and is really very good. Had he been inserted into the older movie version, it would have been a much more compelling movie. He is how I pictured Dorian and he has the acting chops for the character's deeper questioning, though this latter (as in the earlier film) was cut short. I could also see him being a bit of a bad boy, so it would have been believable to see him engaging in some of the drugs/using people/sex/etc. implied in the book.
Jeremy Brett is probably the best Basil I've seen as well - though it could be just that neither of the others made much of an impression on me. Brett seems to balance being the counterpoint to Henry with being the artist who loves Dorian. They back off on Basil being "in love" with Dorian, though this version's hints seemed more in keeping with the novel than the old film version. He does have the most unfortunately stagy reaction when Dorian is going to kill him - I laughed, which is probably not the reaction they were going for!
This version is actually probably the most faithful to the book, though it leaves a bit out. One problem with this and the older movie version is that it skips over the chapters that give an overview of all the wild activities in which Dorian is engaging and about which Society is gossiping (the 2009 version actually had enough of this part that it could have been divided between all 3 movies!). I don't need to see everything, but it should at least be addressed - the book does this, so I'm not sure why the movies neglect this - his adventures/emotions are why the portrait is more than just an older version of Dorian. The pacing of this version is off, with the first part seeming stretched out and then final 1/3 of the story rushed dramatically.
The DVD I have from Netflix also has The Importance of Being Earnest - a little bonus!
Susan wrote: One problem with this and the older movie version is that it skips over all the chapters that give an overview of all the wild activities (the 2009 version actually had enough of this part that it could have been divided between all 3 movies!) in which Dorian is engaging and about which Society is gossiping. I don't need to see everything, but it should at least be addressed - the book does this, so I'm not sure why the movies neglect this - his adventures are why the portrait is more than just an older version of Dorian.Thanks for the terrific review, Susan.
I totally agree we need to see at least some of what Dorian is up to that aged the painting so much.
Thanks for the review of the '76 version, Susan. I only know Peter Firth from "MI5", so it would be worth it just to see him in his youth. Enjoy Earnest. Is that the one with Rupert Everett? I hope so, it was a good one, imo.
Lesley, i like the Orlando Bloom casting. Good one.
I saw The Importance of Being Earnest at the Roundabout back in 2010. Good show !http://blog.roundabouttheatre.org/?ca...
I knew Peter Firth from MI5 as well and didn't really think of him as "Dorian" until I saw him. It was really interesting - I think he would turn heads if he walked into a room - partly because of his looks and partly because of his air of confidence.The version of Earnest I'm watching is the 1986 BBC version on the same DVD as Dorian. I think I've seen part of the Rupert Everett one - not sure I saw the whole thing, so I should probably get that at some point.
I wouldn't mind seeing more BBC versions of classics. I know we get many via PBS but i also have seen glimpses of other, earlier, ones we didn't see aired there. Alias mentioned seeing the play. When i read the play, i felt it would work there, whereas in a film, not as much. And i felt i was right, much as i like Everett. Something about those earlier plays seem stilted on film. Pity, as i'm sure most of us would miss seeing a live version but will watch a filmed one.
The old BBC versions are interesting; they feel like a filmed version of a play, so you have to be in the mood for them. I don't mind that staged feel. It was amazing the difference in production quality between the 1976 Dorian and the 1986 Earnest. The sets seemed much better, the lighting was better and it was much less grainy. What makes them worth it to me is the quality of acting - I mean, Gielgud! I'd love to check out the National Theatre Live productions, but the nearest theater showing them is in DC.
Madrano wrote: "I wouldn't mind seeing more BBC versions of classics. I know we get many via PBS but i also have seen glimpses of other, earlier, ones we didn't see aired there. Alias mentioned seeing the play. Wh..."---------------
I was thrilled when my cable finally got BBC America.
http://www.bbcamerica.com/
Unfortunately, the programing is not what I thought it would be.
I was hoping for their classic movies and documentaries. I thought it was going to be a British PBS.
Alias Reader wrote: "One of the lines in the movie stood out to me. "What is more horrible, the signs of sin or the signs of age."Another good turn of phrase was, "moral leprosy"."
As I continue to read the book, it seems the painting is more about sin then aging.
The first sign that something is amiss with the painting is when Dorian notes the "cruel" sense one sees in the mouth of the painting. This after he breaks his engagement with Sybil and says all the horrible things to her after her performance of Juliet.
It seems the Youth and Beauty and getting mixed up with aging, sin and cruelty. Obviously Cruelty & Sin does not automatically come with aging.
I'm not sure why Wilde does this.
It's interesting that Dorian is an orphan. Later on we learn that the mother of James and Sybil Vane never married their father.
I believe I read in the first few chapters that Dorian is around 20. James we are told in chapter five is only 16. I guess Sybil is younger than James. James, is somber and very serious. Perhaps due to the fact that he feel he must take on the "father" role. His reactions though are over the top and melodramatic. He is trying to fill the shoes of his father and is clearly not up to the task. He is running off to Australia and work on a boat. In the movie I thought James was a lot older.
Sybil is very young and her mother is using her as an actress to pay off their debts. Sybil calls Dorian Prince Charming. A fantasy character from a children's book.
Dorian is the oldest of the trio. He takes the things Lord Henry says as Wisdom. Though it's clear Lord Henry doesn't really believe the things he says. Basil even calls him out on this early in the book. He notes he is a good husband. I think he says the things he does more to be a provocateur.
Through Dorian we are supposed to believe that youth is everything. Lord Henry says this but I don't think he believes it.
With Dorian, Sybil and James I think we see that youth or in their case inexperience are not really something that I think the reader really would desire. Dorian retains his youth and good looks but he is not a nice person. None of them were portrayed in a good light.
It seems the novel is as much about sin, the folly of youth more than it is about "beauty" and fear of losing ones good looks to aging.
Alias Reader wrote: "It seems the Youth and Beauty and getting mixed up with aging, sin and cruelty. Obviously Cruelty & Sin does not automatically come with aging. ..."I think this goes hand-in-hand with the ideas Henry shared & Dorian endorses. If you are young, you must be beautiful, therefore, as you age, you slip into degradation. Such an obvious, awful mistake, even though they seem to know few really older and responsible adults. (Or have i forgotten?)
However, there is a grain of truth to it, if one accepts the belief of many churches that after age 7, one can sin. An extension could be made that as one gets older, learns of more sins, one sins more but to extend that beyond 25 or so seems odd.
The youth is beauty idea has some basis - e.g., generally teenagers and those in their early 20s can get away with wearing more creative ensembles better than someone who is older. For children, it's that innocence/dependence that engenders protective feelings from adults; what comes after that - for adolescents? What makes them attractive? Whether it's "beauty" or some sort of youthful energy is questionable, but I think the book would put it in the beauty category. In addition, I think part of this is the "pleasure" component. For most of us and for the young men in the book (young women, especially from well-off families, were more restricted), youth is the time of life when it is easiest to have fun and explore new things - some of which are not condoned by society (which may make them all the more exciting). A younger person generally (though not always) has fewer constraints and obligations, more energy, less fear of repercussions, and so on.
For Dorian, I think this sense of abandon - the ability to engage in whatever activities he desired - linked the youth element with the sin/cruelty element. He seemed to be drawn to "the dark side" so not just playing and having fun, but also leading others into activities that harm them in part to amuse himself. I think this is the anomaly of the character - most people grow out of this stage as they mature/other parts of their lives are enriched/they become stronger in resisting temptation because they learn of its costs, but Dorian kept this pleasure principle for nearly 20 years, until near the end of the story when he tried to disengage.
It's amazing how many people die in this novel ! Especially when you include all the people in chapter 12 that Basil confronts him with. Then poor Basil gets it, too! It seems like Lord Henry, whose careless words started the whole ball in motion is the only one left standing !
Susan, i appreciate your thoughts. Not until my daughter was 17 or so did i take note in how people were willing to take extra measures to please young women. (Probably men, too, but i didn't see it as much with our son.) When i was young, i don't recall noticing it too much, perhaps because i felt the world owed me (yes, i was that self-centered...i suspect most teens are). However, to witness same with my daughter was a bit disarming. When i pointed this out to her (by this time she was 19), it surprised her but she began noting it. The next time i saw her, on a return visit from college, she told me some of the stories, the ways others went a bit out of their way to make her smile. Over the subsequent 20 or so years, i've found a pleasure in noting that this occurs for most young people. I think it's a small way to remind ourselves of our own youthful days.
NONE of this has to do with Dorian, of course. Still, i think the idea of youth and beauty is an interesting topic. Does the mere fact of youth make one seem beautiful? I suspect so. Perhaps it's the freshness which achieves the status.
Alias, as you may recall i'm not rereading the book with the group. Your comment about all the deaths surprised me but upon reflection i realize you are right. I'm not sure now which is more curious--all the deaths or the fact i forgot same. :-)
Susan wrote:What is the relationship between Basil and Dorian...from beginning to end? IMO, Basil has his own obsessions that he is dealing with - there is something about Dorian that occupies his thoughts and feelings. He cares about Dorian. However, I think whatever "force" inhabits the painting (or inhabits Lord Henry??) also influences Basil for a time; when the painting leaves, Basil is more aware that there was something wrong or odd about it - it haunts him.
Dorian at first was his friend, but then becomes aloof and finally cannot tolerate Basil. This is probably because Basil sees what is happening with Dorian and realizes that it is not normal.
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Basil was in love with Dorian. Dorian liked the attention he got from Basil. In the end when Basil finds out what Dorian is really like and wants to pray for his soul, Dorian turns on Basil and kills him.
Susan wrote: Talk about Lord Henry: what code or set of beliefs does he live by? How does he view conventional morality and in what ways does he challenge it? Why, for instance, does he believe it is futile and wrong for the individual to resist temptation? His true beliefs are unclear to me. On one hand, likes to verbally challenge convention; on the other hand, he seems to live a relatively conventional life. He tempts and provokes, but doesn't seem particularly cruel, nor does he seem to follow Dorian's exploits with great attention.
I think he liked to be "shocking" and liked to intellectually challenge people. But how tame/outrageous was his definition of temptation? My guess is that he did not wade into decadence to the depth that Dorian eventually reached.
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I agree. Lord Henry likes to be a provocateur. Though as Basil says early in the book he is a good husband. So he talks a good game. However he doesn't follow his own pronouncements.
I don't know that Lord Henry believes half of what he says. His friends find him witty and he is considered a good guest. So that eggs him on to continue. At one point he says the Dorian could never hurt anyone. Clearly he is wrong. So I don't know that he really realizes that Dorian takes his words to heart.
Susan wrote: In what way does Lord Henry affect Dorian's character? Why does Lord Henry choose Dorian as his disciple? And what impels Dorian to follow his guidance? What is it that Dorian fears? Lord Henry shows Dorian things he had not seen before. He sanctioned activities that most people would believe scandalous. He probably saw in Dorian someone who was looking for something. Dorian had not grown up in "society" and therefore was open to new ways of looking at life - he was inexperienced and vulnerable and alone. He was in a period of transition to having money and property, so there was already a state of uncertainty. For Dorian, Lord Henry is provides some stability and aspiration - he is clever and popular and seems to have it all.
Lord Henry chooses Dorian because of his youth. He knows that Dorian doesn't have worldly experience so he will believe what Lord Henry says and think the things he says are exciting worldly.
I think Dorian fears that the only quality that he possesses that is worth anything is his youth and beauty. He has no skills. He is not an artist or actor.
Susan wrote: Talk about the role of the yellow book. (Although Wilde never gives it a title, critics believe it is based on Joris-Karl Huysman's novel, A Rebours, meaning "Against the Grain" or "Against Nature.") This book opens up possibilities that Dorian had probably never considered and, in his case, inspired him to take action.
Against Nature---Joris-Karl Huysmans
The books theories, in part because the book is given to Dorian by Lord Henry, fills him with the notion that he should live his life for pleasure and not care how his actions effect others.
Susan wrote: Why does Sibyl commit suicide and what impact does her death have on Dorian? She is devastated that Dorian fell out of love with her at the point that she realized she loved him. She believed that he loved her and his cruelty to her was demeaning and awful. In addition, she had exchanged her love of acting to her love of Dorian - in her eyes, she despaired that she was ruined because she had lost herself.
Her death sets Dorian on his self-destructive course. He not only feels guilt and wants comfort, but he also realizes that he liked the cruelty he inflicted. He started to see the changes in the portrait and it became a bit of a game to him. How would the painting look if he took the next step.
I agree. She was very young and really had no clear view of her own worth. Her acting was a way to help pay off her mothers debts and she was told she was a good actress. Her self worth was tied up with her acting. She exchanges her acting for Dorian. Dorian loved her for her acting. Her gift. When he brings Lord Henry and see that she has no gift for acting. He has no use for her. He cruelly trashes her. She is devastated. She has nothing. She has no confidence in her acting after he denigrates her. And she doesn't have his love. For her, her Youth is a negative. Because she has no life experience, she thinks losing Dorian is the end for her.
Discuss Dorian's portrait. What does it represent? What does it suggest about the effect of experience on the soul? Why does Dorian hide it in the attic? The portrait represents his soul - it starts out as beautiful as his outward appearance but then becomes more hideous as he begins to enjoy indulging his baser instincts. A part of Dorian knows it is wrong to engage in these behaviors - internally, his shame is part of why he hides the painting. In addition, he knows that there is some external "force" that is behind the changes in the painting and does not want to be associated with it or answer questions or be tagged with the "mark of the devil" in some sense. But, even with these reasons, I think he also wanted to keep his secret because it became a private game.
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Agree. One thing that is said in the novel that I think is key, is that we have a choice. Dorian choose to do the evil things he did. In the end it wasn't Lord Henry or the Devil it was Dorian who must take responsibility for his deeds. He has to pay for his deeds. There are no free rides. The painting can't really take on the ugly things Dorian does. I think it's a illusion.
Dorian's scandalous behavior shocks his peers, yet he remains welcome in social circles? Why? What is Wilde suggesting about "polite" London society? I think part of it is that they are excited by the rumors of scandalous behavior. Society (both capital and small "s" versions) likes and functions on gossip. It is possible that many did not believe the rumors - the book mentioned that he would travel and be away for long stretches of time, so presumably many of these actions took place away from home.
In addition, because he was still handsome and charming, they could not believe the stories - there was no "wear and tear" that would come with such a lifestyle. So, it was easy to dismiss them or believe them exaggerated.
Agree. He had the three things they all wanted and worshiped: Wealth, Beauty and Youth. It was also exciting in a way. They could take a walk on the wild side through Dorian. He had a reputation for doing the things they dared not do themselves.
Alias Reader wrote: "Susan wrote: Talk about Lord Henry: what code or set of beliefs does he live by? How does he view conventional morality and in what ways does he challenge it? Why, for instance, does he believe it ..."Yes, I don't think any of them knew what Dorian was really up to, since he seemed to disappear from home for his "other life".
Alias Reader wrote: "Susan wrote:What is the relationship between Basil and Dorian...from beginning to end? IMO, Basil has his own obsessions that he is dealing with - there is something about Dorian that occupies hi..."
While I absolutely agree with this, I'm also intrigued with Basil's comments about his sort of obsessive feelings when he was painting the portrait. This was before Dorian's "sell my soul to be young" wish (which he made when the painting was finished), so it wasn't the deal with the devil that did it.
Yes, Basil was in love with Dorian so perhaps it was just that love that drove him to paint, but it is interesting that there was always something "odd" about the painting. Lord Henry didn't seem to have an evil enough agenda - more provocative than evil - to be a stand-in for the devil, so it's not just that Lord Henry was around.
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Books mentioned in this topic
Against Nature (other topics)A People’s History of the United States: 1492 - Present (other topics)
The Importance of Being Earnest (other topics)
Brave New World (other topics)
War and Peace (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Joris-Karl Huysmans (other topics)Howard Zinn (other topics)
Joris-Karl Huysmans (other topics)
Sam Vaknin (other topics)
Edwin Arnold (other topics)
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Youth Vs Beauty
Excellent point, Susan !
This from the intro may shed light on DG motivation.
"Believing he has no other value than his suddenly revealed beauty, he wishes it might never decline;"