Karen Chance Fans discussion
Series Discussions
>
Theories, Hypotheses and Conspiracies
I'm wondering how different Dorina is in personality compared to Dory. I want to say that Dory is the dominant one, but Dory can't seem to control when Dorina comes out to play.
I tended to think Dorina was stronger-willed. Dory can let things go (usually) but we've seen Dorina demanding respect and not willing to back down.It's hard to judge though, since we don't exactly see Dorina at her best. I think interesting times lie ahead!
Also, Dorina is more open than Dory. Remember Dory's reaction - "she hurt, she cried"? So she might not care for the mind games that vamps seem to live for. So while she demands respect, she allows no room for vamps to weasel their way out. That should lead to some interesting problems, especially considering one of her family is Ray.
Dory has learned to let things go as a matter of survival. But Dorina, figuring she's a first level master, doesn't need to worry about attack from anyone. So it makes sense that Dorina is less willing to back down- she's the more powerful half, and regular old Dory is already very formidable.
It occurred to me that maybe the Consul already *knew* that Pythias could do things like Cassie did for Jules...and probably similar or worse things that we don't even know about yet, and that's why she was worried about Mircea allying so closely with a Pythia. And not just for what a P could do to M's rivals or enemies, but what if M or others of her allies chose to quit being vampires?
Another interesting thing about Dorina is her reaction to children, or at least the young and vulnerable. Dory saw that Stinky was going to be killed at that auction, then Dorina took over and went on a rampage to save him. And, again, it was Dorina who wanted to protect the Irin child and went out hunting every night to find her.This protective instinct does seem at odds with a psycho vampire, which makes me think that Dorina's nowhere near as bad as Dory thinks she is. I'm not sure if Dorina just has a soft spot for the weak, or maybe it's some vampire instinct to create and protect a family. Any thoughts?
I don't think Dorina is nearly as crazy as Dory thinks. I'm pretty sure Dorina is actually reasonable, and Dory only thinks she's crazy because all she sees is the rage. But Dorina manages to get them out of trouble every single time.
Yup, I agree with this. I think a lot of the next Dory book might focus on how Dory realises how wrong she was about Dorina. But, having said that, I don't think it's all going to be smooth sailing. KC has hinted that there may be rocky patches ahead for Dory and LC, and I'm thinking (or hoping!) that it's Dorina who clashes with him, since she's not overly fond of vamps, as far as we can tell.Fun times ahead!
Well, we all know how I feel about certain pairings! I bet Dorina would fall for Asshat. Oh God, that would be so much fun to read about!
I would *love* to see some hot scenes between those two! Especially if Dory had blacked out and didn't know had happened until she woke up next to Asshat LMAO!
Kathleen wrote: "It occurred to me that maybe the Consul already *knew* that Pythias could do things like Cassie did for Jules...and probably similar or worse things that we don't even know about yet, and that's wh..."It's possible, although I wonder if it was a pythia thing or a Cassie thing?
Dorina and Dory... I think Dorina is the Id to the Ego, who is Dory. Dorina is impulsive, crazy and irrational. Dory is the one with control and knows what is wrong from right. So while Dorina is strong by raw strengty, Dory has the real strength in control and would win out...
But we've seen scenes from Dorina's POV and she was totally rational.
Claire wrote: "But we've seen scenes from Dorina's POV and she was totally rational."Rational as in she can converse, not rational as far as decision making or controlling her temper...
She was in control in the warehouse, though
I also felt Dorina was in control. It seemed to me that her dislike of vamps affects her decision-making, but not to a level I'd call irrational. As well as that scene in the warehouse, she seemed quite in control also during those first couple of chapters in Fury's Kiss with LC. She became angry with LC during the scene in the garden with the fey, but it can all be traced back to her history with vamps, again.If, all my life, a group of people had slighted me (at best) or tried to kill me (at worst) I don't know if it'd be fair to judge me on my behaviour towards those people. And I think I'd be right to be angry with them or disdain them. In my opinion, anyway! :)
But Dory took the control back ...I think in the warehouse it was partially mixed in with Dory too... it was almost like the two personalities merged.
I don't know, I'm not convinced that Dorina's a beserker. But only time will tell!
Dorina's anger with LC in the garden and much of her other behavior is because she is a 1st level master. That's how they respond to actual and perceived slights in order to protect their status and power.Dory is the one who doesn't like vamps---because they act like Dorina---and Mircea, Cleo, etc.
Kathleen wrote: "Dory is the one who doesn't like vamps---because they act like Dorina---and Mircea, Cleo, etc. "Must admit, I feel quite the opposite.
For sure Dory has her run-ins with vampires, but that's mostly because they're really nasty to her. But I think Dory almost secretly craves acceptance by vamps. If she hates them so much, why is she working with them? Why has she slept with some of them? Why is she dating one now? Why did she try to become vampire at one point?
I feel it's Dorina who really doesn't like vamps, and the root of it could be that same disparagement that Dory suffers. Dory shrugs it off, but first level master Dorina knows instinctively that she shouldn't be treated this way.
Some of Dorina's thoughts from early in Fury's Kiss ...
It was backing down. It was refusing challenge.
But vampires lied.
Note that LC is not a male, he's an 'it'. Also this ...
They always assumed that I did not speak. That I could not. So many had plotted my death, discussed it, laughed about it, while I was even in the room, because they assumed I was mindless. Like one of the failures of their kind, born mad.
But I was not a failure. I was what I was supposed to be. I was dhampir.
And they never lived to tell anyone they were wrong.
Mircea's thoughts on Dorina ...
"My contact with ... Dorina ... has been limited," Mircea said. "She does not trust me. I am what she preys upon."
It's possible 'hate' is too strong a word, but Dorina has no fondness or trust for vampires. I think this is something that'll come to the fore in the next book.
I think Mircea got it right when he said he was what Dorina preys upon. Dorina looks down on vampires. I think she finds them arrogant and let's be honest, she isn't entirely wrong. But I think this aspect of her personality could really affect Dory's relationship with LC. If a distinct distrust of all vampires starts to bleed into her conscious thoughts, it would make it harder to pursue the tenuous relationship she has going with LC. Then again, even Dorina was impressed by LC.
We have assumed that Stinky was an unwanted little outcast. But what if one of his parents, or their family, if they are deceased, really wants him and has been searching frantically?I got to thinking about the recently discussed theory that Caedmon might ally some of the Dark Fey, and here is this little Dark Fey who has become the companion, playmate and sometimes protector of Caedmon's heir.
So even if no one *was* looking for Stinky, he might soon be sought after for his royal connections. ?
Honestly, I don't see Stinky's background as being that important and I don't feel that we'll see anyone looking for him. I feel that it's not Stinky's history that's important; it's where he's going in the future. I could see him becoming a friend and maybe bodyguard (when he's older, at least) of Aidan.From a narrative point of view, I feel the point of Stinky and Aidan's friendship is to show yet another bond between a dark and light fey. If the future king of the light fey grew up with a dark fey friend (and a dark fey mother), that's got to go some way toward removing the prejudice the light fey hold toward the dark. Caedmon says that in the end they're all fey and probably wants the prejudice gone, and Claire and Heidar wouldn't object either. I kinda see there being a big war between the fey (that's almost guaranteed) then afterwards many of the old divisions can start to be overcome. That's how it plays out in my head, at least!
Moved from FK Thread:The timeline of separating Dory’s 2 natures doesn’t fit.
1. It takes decades/centuries to reach master level (the narrative so far implies >100 years is the norm) longer still to be a senior master.
2. Only 1st level masters have special abilities/powers, some 2nd levels manifesting them early.
3. Mental abilities are rare and a special ability.
Mircea was a baby vampire throughout Dory’s childhood. This contradicts the above canon. 1st level Mircea has to travel back in time to fix Dory, to reconcile the discrepancies.
How did the discrepancies get there in the first place?
Maybe that's why he's been so interested in Pythia's, looking for the one he knows will take him back to help Dory
We better get more on this Pythian thing in Reap the Wind!! KC can't leave that conversation between M & M hanging for another whole book!
Just was re-reading fury's kiss (there's a hint for those playing 'who said that' - each time I look for a quote I end up reading the book from that point) anyhoo, Dory was thinking about their relationship and mused that Mircea had turned Drac when she was quite young, so he must have already been a Master as only a master can turn someone. Then when she was trying to explain that 1st and 2nd level masters can have other gifts to Claire, she mentioned that some get the gifts earlier than 1st level ... but she didn't say how much earlier, but I guess it depends on the Vamp, and if Mircea had made master within 10 years of being turned, maybe he also started getting his gifts very early as well ... which would sort out the whole Dory's timeline issue, but I still like the idea he needs to go back in time to help young Dorina.
KC did a Q & A where she confirms that a seventh level master (i.e. the lowest level) can make another vamp. I didn't have the impression that it took decades or centuries to become a low level master. In Touch the Dark, I'm sure it says that Mei-Ling was only about 80ish and she was a powerful first level master on the Senate. My working theory was that a vamp could reach seventh level in a decade or less.So, if that's correct, Mircea would be able to make his own vampires after being vamp for less than ten years. Allowing for a nine month pregnancy, Dory could easily have been only seven or eight years old when Drac was turned. I'm not sure there's any continuity issue here. Or maybe I'm not understanding it?
My impression was that the more powerful the vamp was destined to be, the more likely he/she was to develop early. I'm not certain about the special abilities that a first level master has. I was tending to assume those wouldn't show before second level, as I thought those were one of the pointers to being a first level master.
For reference, KC gives an outline of the vamp levels here (Question 2):
http://www.karenchance.com/news/qa-40-2/
We know Dory was nine when she found Mircea, and Vlad was still alive then.
I think that Ol Snakey saw potential in Mircea during Masks, so...since Mircea's mind powers are so great, I think he could have come I to those powers before being a first level master, and I also believe he became a first level master in less than a hundred years because of some of the traveling he's done with Cassie, I can't recall the exact dates, but some were earlier than others and he was very powerful...so...yeah, also...it's Mircea, he destroys the curve. He could have easily moved up in the ranks especially if he needed to care for Dory and because he wasn't fighting his own master for power.
This is sort of nebulous, but....Rereading RtW teaser chapters reminded me that Cassie seemed a bit confused interacting with Pritkin in 1793, as though she could not distinguish between him and 21st century Pritkin.
And when she got back, she was mad because he did not remember her (or did not let on if he did.
At the time I attributed her behavior to inexperience and ambivalence toward Pritkin.
But in RtW, as several people pointed out, he seemed oddly sophisticated about energy sharing and oddly trusting of the woman who robbed him before...
That got me thinking how easy it was for to take advantage of him the first time they met.
The easy answer is that he was attracted to her from the moment they first met.
Yet he had just come from hell, and he had just been ripped off on Earth. He should have been anything but trusting.
Especially the second time. He is very, very bright, so he must have caught on quickly in 1794 that she was trying to protect him, but still....
It's as though thereip is some sort of time leak between eras where those two are concerned, with maybe feelings leaking somehow between past and future....
I'm wondering about the significance of that, and what we'll see in the future, especially since there seems to be a similar anomaly with her mother. Same? Different? I'm not sure.
Anyone else thinking the same way?
Who else thinks that eventually the utterly narcissistic Rosier is going to accidentally/purposely out Pritkin as Merlin in the presence of the vamps and/or Circle?
What's in it for Rosier, if he does this? I think this is question to be applied to all of Rosier's actions! :)I think if the Circle learned Pritkin was Merlin, this would raise his status quite significantly with them. The vamps may not be quite as enamoured, since they aren't magic users, but I guess they'd want a reasonable relationship with such an historic figure. I don't know if Pritkin finding acceptance and status on Earth would suit Rosier's agenda to have him as his heir/stud in the demon realm? I think he'd possibly much prefer Pritkin to be dismissed by everyone and maybe return with his tail between his legs (yeah, yeah, he'll be waiting a long time for that!)
We have scene Rosier act irrationally. Pritkin or Cassie can easily provoke him, and we have scene him lose his temper and act crazy in the Shadowlands.Pritkin would **hate** it! Plus, all the dark mages and many of the Circle mages would be trying to kill him to get his magic.
He would hate the adulation almost more. So much, in fact, that he might "escape" back to Hell.
Besides, in one of his temper fits Rosier might do it without thinking.
If Pritkin could handle being a half incubus and not having any kind of sex virtually starving his other half, I don't think some limelight would make him go back to hell and let daddy pimp him out. I don't think anything sort of choosing to save Cassie's life would make him go back there. But who knows with Rosier, he's not as brilliant as he thinks he is, he often makes mistakes where both of them are concerned, he sees things the way he wants to see them, and I don't think he completely thinks things through, he just acts. Rosier kind of reminds me of a child who doesn't get his way and throws a tantrum.I think it's funny on several instances when Rosier used Cassie and Pritkin's attaction to each other to try and get them to do the deed, either by saving Pritkins like or trying to get Pritkin to drain Cassie and go back to hell. There was the time Pritkin was dying because of the dragon blood working like acid on him, and he gave Cassie some sort of boost to make Pritkin have to feed. And then there was when Rosier did a spell that effected Pritkin and Cassie, the time she first noticed Pritkin had a twin and was checking his tattoo.
I want to know what will happen when Pritkin gets back, will he remember the difference in between what first happened and what happened after Cassie when back and affected his timeline? Or will he somehow lose a lot of his memory and that's part of why Adra and the demon council gave Cassie the counterspell, or if he didn't lost his memory and decides he wants to be with Cassie (a lot more than friends) what Rosier will do to try and break them up then? I think no matter what happens if Cassie gets a demon army and if her and Pritkin decide to take their relationship up a notch I think Rosier will continue to make trouble somehow.
Heck maybe Rosier will go to Mircea and plot with him that's it better for both of them if Pritkin and Cassie separate.
Kristen, I agree. It would not make Pritkin want to go back to hell, but Mr. Oblivious (Rosier) might think so. And he would surely plot with Mircea if he thought it would help him get his was. As you say, R. is like a badly spoiled young child.
Throughout the series from Cassie's POV she's always thought her relationship with Mircea could never last, and that he doesn't know her or see the woman she's become. Than there's plenty of actions from Mircea things he's said, secrets he's kept/keeping, and the fact they never really talk about anything important the subject is always avoided or changed. I wonder if this is a set up for a big break up or if we're being mislead. At this point her and Pritkin seem like they would be the perfect match, and honest and open relationship, they both see, know and understand each other, does anyone think we're being set-up. KC's leading up to believe one thing, the easiest thing at this point or are we in for a few more surprises where those three are concerned?I think Rosier will soon be plotting again as soon as they get Pritkin back he'll probably try and undermind Cassie's already fragile relationship with the demons. I think Ming-de is a big bad and is planning something, not just for more power but there's something that happened or is on-going with Mircea. I think Jack's favor he asked Cassie since she told him she'd have to agree to it, might be him switching masters? Maybe he wants to be her personal guard because she's always in danger and getting a lot of action.
And maybe all that power Roger took for the black circle is because him and Artemis are planning something, not necessarily changing their history but something in the future? Maybe they have some allies somewhere we haven't see or heard of yet. It wouldn't be very smart of Artemis not to have allies with all the powerful enemies she has, and knowing she can't run or hide forever. I wonder if those two have an army stashed away.
Pritkin will be saved and in charge of the demon councils army, Cassie will find some other demigods and lead them, with her silver circle backers. Tony will spend a lot of time with Rasputin using the rogue initiates to mess things up trying to keep Cassie running around like a chicken with her head cut off trying to clean up or figure out what they're doing while they put their real end game into play and in enters Ares.
I thought the early relationship with Mircea *was* the feint to throw us off track. It didn't become obvious to me that Pritkin might really be the one till CtD. And it wasn't apparent that Cassie really was becoming aware until late in HtM.
HtM came out in June of 2011, so from our POV, we've known for over three years. But for Cassie that was just LAST WEEK!
The problem with KC being such a slow writer is that we have had all this time to become bored, blase, and apathetic in a way, while other readers have wandered away and forgotten about the whole series.
Still others would have to reread some or all of the novels to be able to catch up and keep up with the fast action in RtW...and they may not want to work that hard. Not all KC's readers are fangirls like us.
So I think the loooonnnnggg time between novels distorts our perception of time.
Kristen wrote: "I wonder if this is a set up for a big break up or if we're being mislead. "Kathleen wrote: "I thought the early relationship with Mircea *was* the feint to throw us off track."
You know, I can see both points of view here.
Kathleen, I agree that there was certainly misdirection at the start, where I think most would have said the love triangle would be between Mircea and Tomas, but by EtN it was obvious that Pritkin was being developed further (e.g. Cassie has a few lustful thoughts about him when they were back in Paris in 1793).
However, the thing that makes me wonder if Kristen's on the right track is the fact that (I believe) KC adores Mircea. I think he's her favourite character, and given that she's dropped a few hints about him (e.g. that we've barely scratched the surface of his story) convinces me that he's not going to quietly bow out the way Tomas has (for now, anyway). I know Mircea's in a slightly different position since he's an important crossover character in both the Dory and Cassie books, but I feel that there are big things in store for Mircea yet.
Another point we have to consider of course is the overall narrative of the story. KC's been quietly developing Pritkin's character and building tension between him and Cassie for several books, and that has to have some sort of pay-off or it all becomes pointless. So either Cassie and Pritkin have to get together, or there has to be some sort of dramatic development (like a death) to stop it. They can't just fizzle out and have Cassie decide to stay with Mircea. That makes no sense from a story-telling point of view.
To touch on some of Kristen's other comments:
About Jack, well he's on the Senate now, so he doesn't really have a master (beyond the Consul). He would have been emancipated by Augusta a while back, presumably.
On Ming-de, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if she's got something up her sleeve. She has agreed to accept the war effort be governed by Cleo, but I can see her immediately plotting to turn this to her advantage somehow. And aren't new senate members Cheung and possibly ZZ her boys? She might use them to undermine the North American Senate in some way.
On Rosier, I can't see him and Mircea aligned somehow. Not that they won't have the same interests, but I don't think they could trust each other enough. Mircea expresses extreme distrust for demons in Hunt the Moon, and I'm sure he knows Rosier already tried to kill Cassie in EtN. I just can't see them co-operating to oust Pritkin from Cassie's life. Mircea would suspect a trap of some sort.
On Pritkin, whilst I agree he wouldn't enjoy or seek out the limelight, I don't think he'd run back to hell because of it. I think he'd simply disappear off on a mission for the Circle to some remote part of the world and lie low for a while. Or just yell at anyone who mentioned it!! I don't see it being any kind of dealbreaker for him.
With regard to Pritkin's memories and the timeline, I don't know if we can answer this yet. I'm hesitant to guess until we see what happens in RtW. It gets awfully complicated if Cassie's continually changing history, and in many ways it starts to undermine everything that's gone on before. How can we take Pritkin's first meeting with Cassie seriously if he's encountered her several times in the past already? Once is OK, but surely if there were a few meetings he'd remember? I think I want Pritkin to wake up on the Demon Council doorstep with all the memories he had from the moment he 'died' with nothing changed for him.
On Artemis, Roger and the Black Circle power, there's something fishy here. I'd thought at first that Roger was taking that power for Artemis, but now we know she can't use it, so it's not that. We've seen this type of power used by Jonathan the Mage. Was Roger using it to prolong his life? It states quite clearly in FK that using power in this manner is A Bad Thing, however given that Roger's dead, it feels like it should be a non-issue. I'm not so sure though. I think there's something else going on.
I agree Jack's only master right now is probably the NA consul, I just wonder what someone like him could possibly want from Cassie, he doesn't seem to really care about anything other than fighting and having people to practice his torture skills on. I also wonder when the favor will come up, and how important it will be to the story, or the effect it will have. It wouldn't of been brought up if it wasn't effective in someway, otherwise it could of been left out, seeing as he only let Cassie in the door he didn't really think she'd make it past the guards into the party room. She should of been more specific when she made that deal. I'm not even sure why she tried to show up to her own party being purposefully left out of it by so many people other than she was angry about it (and rightly so), I wonder what kind of scene she would of made if Marlowe hadn't escorted her out.In RTW I know the demons will probably be an important part or at least make some kind of showing, but I wonder if Cassie will get to see/meet all the new senate members, maybe if she gets her demon army she'll have a meeting to tell them about it, rather than just having contact with the senate through Mircea. Marco's probably had to report how Cassie hasn't really been around much at the hotel, and that he saw her jump through a demon portal. Than there's the fact that no one has really questioned Pritkin's abscene and since he's her guard and always by her side even if they don't know that the two of them have a deeper relationship. Maybe Mircea has been too busy with Dory and the senate to deal with it, or maybe he's realizing Cassie is doing a pretty good job of taking care of herself and he's learning to trust her, and he might still have that tracking device on her so he know's she's still alive, and the senate is probably trusting Mircea to keep tabs on their allied pythia.
Also about the unwelcomed reception of Cassie going back in time when Roger and Artemis both knew she was their daughter, Cassie attributed it to be slightly because they can't miss a daughter they still had. But the fact that Cassie went back to them alone instead of asking their present selves should of let them know something was wrong, yet they didn't seem concerned they just wanted her gone. It's obvious their hiding something, neither one of them is who they appear to be and everything anyone knows about them are just the things they have heard, I'm wondering if they truly love Cassie as their daughter or if her existence will be used as something more to them. Artemis said something to Cassie her existence is born out of Chaos and fate not being controlled? And even though Artemis knows all about jumping around through time she was so surprised and started when she saw Cassie, almost instantly recognizing her as her daughter.
So in RTW will we find out more about Mircea and his motivation (things he's hiding) or do you think we'll see Cassie's parents again and get something on them?
So many good points!! :DI love your observations about Jack. I think that favour is going to be important too. Maybe Jack will ask Cassie to do something that seems fairly benign to her, only it ends up causing a lot of problems for Mircea ... as Jack knew it would! Mircea could be torn between wanting to blame Cassie (since vamps punish the one who caused the problem, regardless of where the true fault lies) and having to answer for her to the Senate.
Jack is an oddball. What's his agenda, if he even has one? We don't really know much about him, apart from his sicko pleasures. Although he's a senator, I don't get the feeling he's much liked or respected by the others. That could cause resentment. Is he truly loyal or could he be collaborating with the enemy like Lawrence? I'd like to know his real opinion of Mircea. Jack says all vamps are monsters, even the beautiful ones. Maybe there's some jealousy there, and Jack wishes he were as beautiful, powerful and successful as Mircea obviously is.
On Cassie and her trip to the demon realm, I wish we knew exactly how the timeline aligns with Fury's Kiss and when (or if) Mircea finds out about Cassie's little trip through a demon portal. If Marco & crew 'forget' to mention that, Mircea will go apeshit! It's possible that Mircea's wrestling with Lawrence in Dory's head right around this time, so there's no chance to tell him (and maybe when Cassie returns, all the vamps in her suite will be passed out from Mircea's power drain).
On Cassie's parents, I think we're going to see them again. I think we're only starting to get into what's going on with them. Every new book deepens the mystery around them, rather than enlightens. I think that comment about Cassie being a child of chaos is a statement about Artemis herself, not about Cassie. Artemis talks about how Cassie will change her fate if she goes to rescue Pritkin, but I think her initial comments (especially the bit about 'fate can be undone') is in reference to herself. It feels like this whole conversation between Cassie and her mother should have a neon arrow pointing at it with 'Clue' flashing in big letters LOL! We can really dig into this when we do the Tempt the Stars re-read in a couple of weeks. I'm hoping when our hive mind gets to work we might have some new theories!
Finally on RtW, KC did say there will be more Mircea in the book, and obviously the timeline will catch up with FK so we should see something of the scene in Cleo's house from Cassie's POV. It's not so much the retelling of that scene itself that I'm interested in (though it'll be fun to get Cassie's thoughts!) but it's the aftermath of the scene. And the 'beforemath' LOL! How does Cassie get there? How does she find out that Mircea nearly died? What will be the conclusion of the book (another cliffhanger?, a declaration of outright war?, the return of Ares? the rogue Myras doing something?) So many things could happen!!
I also expected Cassie to have a bigger reaction to Dory. I mean here's a man that claims her as his (property, wife, or whatever)they're suppose to be in a serious relationship or dating, and she walks in on her with the woman he had hundreds of photos of in nothing but a sheet leaning over Mircea and giving him a kiss. Then the woman (Dory) tells her to leave, get out, that Mircea doesn't need Cassie, she can give him what he needs. I think Dory's kind of lucky she just ended up muddy in a field, and Cassie laughing. I don't know what I'd do, but I don't think I'd laugh. Of course Mircea would be more to blame, maybe Cassie was saving her anger up for him? Than again I think Dory mentions she thinks Mircea was conscious at some point and fed, so maybe that's a scene we didn't see. He wakes up and feeds from Cassie, than Cassie steps out of the room where Marlowe waits to tell her what happened, maybe who Dory really is, and when Cassie comes in she shifts Dory out because she just didn't like her attitude, or maybe she wanted to speak to Mircea alone when he woke up again and Dory didn't seem like the type to leave daddy lying there.I'm also wondering more about the bond Mircea told Cassie they have together, if it's only one way and what information can they get from it when their apart.
I'd like to get a scene between Cassie and Radu. They've met that once, but I don't know how much he remembers about it. And when he told Dory that Mircea went back and changed time so that Radu didn't end up insane and ended up turning LC he never mentioned Cassie at all. Perhaps this is deliberate on his part. Casanova knows about Dory and never mentioned her to Cassie and we know how much he likes to complain.
Artemis may have been extremely weak for a goddess living on Earth but she was a heck of a lot stronger than Cassie or Agnes. I wonder if she can travel to the future? Why did she stop going to the demon realm to feed and regain some strength? Maybe because of the spell she cast she can no longer open the door between realms.
I like this point about Cassie visiting Mircea before she sees Dory. I hadn't really considered the sequence of events, but I think you're right that this isn't the first time she's visited since his near death. Cassie must have arrived at the Consul's place and visited Mircea in his room (not sure whether she'd feed him, though it probably doesn't matter really) then she must have left for a bit, maybe to go for food, or a snooze, or even a quick trip back to Vegas? Then she returns to Mircea's room and sees Dory. She knows where his room is and she doesn't seem to be accompanied by anyone, so she's obviously been there before. After being dumped in the field and stealing a car to get back home, Dory reckoned she'd been out for the best part of 24 hours, so there was plenty of time for Cassie to have been hanging about. There must be some chat between Cassie and Cleo as well surely, because you don't just sneak in and out of the Consul's house without saying hi! Maybe Cassie sees Radu here and re-introduces herself? I'd like to see another scene between them too. I wonder if Radu will treat her in that offhand way of his, which can sometimes seem rude, but it's really more absent-minded. I kinda want to laugh if Cassie's dissed by Radu AND Dory!
I want to know what happens after this scene, specifically about the Senate induction. There seemed to be two ceremonies for the new Senators. The main one, where Cheung and ZZ are welcomed, then a second one for Dory alone. Unless she was hiding at the back somewhere, I'm fairly sure Cassie wasn't there at Dory's induction, but she might have been there for the main one (which Dory missed). Having a Pythia present might be something the Senate could brag about, so Cassie would be welcome to witness the event. However, if she were furious at Mircea, she might have taken off before then. Hopefully we'll find out in RtW.
On Artemis and power, it says somewhere that once she created the spell to lock out the other gods, it also served to lock her in, so she wasn't able to leave to travel to other realms to feed. I don't know if she can travel to the future, but I think it's quite possible. KC has been very cagey about this, so I'm taking that as a clue that it might happen. Maybe Cassie can't, but Artemis was able to, at one point at least. Maybe she travelled ahead in time but never saw a daughter, and that's why she was so surprised at seeing Cassie? That would also explain all the comments about fate being undone. Her fate was to remain childless, but she somehow thwarted it and had Cassie?
So Cassie goes to check on Mircea at the consul's house after she saves Pritkin, because otherwise we would of gotten her POV of the situations and we know as soon as Adra gives her the counterspell her and Rosier leave. I'm assuming they come back to the hotel and see all Mircea's masters unconscious (or maybe she knew through the bond), she puts to-and-to together and goes to Mircea. Before Adra shows up and gives Cassie the spell a few of the members of the demon council were watching her to see what she would do so it had been a few days between that time and the time she initially left through the demon portal where Marco and company could of told Mircea what they saw or knew. And still he never contacted her, I don't know with Pritkin back if Cassie is going to focus on the myras or wait until the rogues make their first move to deal with it.Cassie tends to put more focus on one specific thing, I think it's part of an excuse to put a lot of issues she needs to think/talk/work-through on the backburner and avoid them. Maybe when she found out Mircea was injured that put the talk her and Pritkin need to have about their feelings and relationship behind. Or maybe they already have the talk and the reason why Cassie seems shocked but not truly angry at finding the other woman (Dory) in that sitation with Mircea was because she already dumped him. Then they wouldn't have to talk about all the things they have been keeping from each other as a couple/trust issue, because they'd just be allies,his job as a senator and her's as a pythia, and we know those two titles are bound to keep loads of secrets from each other.
It makes sense if Artemis did travel to the future and saw herself childless and then Cassie shows up which is why she makes those statements and is all surprised. Though Cassie had helped Agnes capture Roger whom Agnes returned to her court where supposedly Artemis met him, therefore they became a couple and had Cassie, I wonder how it was suppose to happen if Cassie hadn't travel back in time to talk to another pythia?Does that mean Cassie wouldn't have been born? Also I think we went over the Cassie's mom and dad timeline of when we know they met and when Cassie's mom said they met and it didn't match up. Could they be lying for some reason? Like could Roger and Artemis have met before in the past? Even farther back and started making plans, maybe that's why he joined up with that cult group, they had found a way to travel back in time, than later he worked with the black circle? Why did he really join up with those two groups he didn't really seem like the type to believe either spiel. Roger's packing some power, he's smart, yet his outward appearance is anything but impressive along with how he acts. Maybe what Roger shows everyone but Cassie's mom is an act to hide something about himself. There has to be a reason he tricked and outsmarted those two groups he joined, and a reason Artemis ended up being with him specifically.
I'm trying to figure out how Cassie gets to Cleo's house. I don't know how much she might pick up through the bond, since Mircea seems to have closed off his end pretty tightly, but maybe near death loosens his hold on it? Cassie's never been to Cleo's place, and I'd bet she has no idea that the consul even owns a house in upstate New York, so I think someone has to tell her about it. I'm wondering if maybe Jules might be kicking around and can explain what happened. As a human, he wouldn't be affected by Mircea's power drain, but he was vampire long enough to understand what he's seeing. Maybe he could tell Cassie where Mircea is, having heard from Marco.I love the idea that Cassie and Pritkin have already had 'the talk' and that she's committed to him now, so seeing Dory only serves to reaffirm that she made the right choice. I still feel Cassie's behaviour was less than admirable, even though it was an amusing scene, so I want to hear her POV and her justifications to herself.
There are just soooooo many questions about Roger and Artemis. The whole thing is screwy. I was thinking about that timeline inconsistency the other day, i.e. how Artemis supposedly met Roger after Agnes captured and imprisoned him for being a member of the Guild (the parliament scene), yet Agnes herself says, in the very same scene, that her heir had already run off by this point. This is such a glaring inconsistency! I can't believe this is an oversight by KC because it screws up everything, so I think there's something bigger going on. There's another inconsistency in Hunt the Moon, with how Roger recognises Cassie when she and Mircea travel back to the party in the 80s so Cassie could have a look at her mother. Artemis clearly hasn't run off yet, since she's there with Agnes, so the parliament scene hasn't happened. Yet Roger recognises Cassie and lets out a little scream, then all hell breaks loose. Could Cassie have accidentally made a big change to the timeline by going to this party? Maybe Artemis & Roger weren't planning to run off then, but Cassie's visit changed that, and this is where all the comments about Fate and Chaos come from?
Roger's association with the Guild and the Black Circle is confusing. He talks about ghost armies in Tempt the Stars, so maybe the Black Circle power was for them, but I don't get the Guild connection at all. However, all the time I'd read the books in the past, I was working off the basic assumption that Cassie's parents were Good People, and all my impressions were based on that conjecture. I'm honestly not sure if that opinion is correct any more, and I should probably revise my beliefs! I do think that, whatever they're up to, Roger and Artemis are in it together, so she would know (and presumably approve) of everything he's done. I definitely have the impression that they've known each other for longer than 25(ish) years, though the text doesn't entirely back that up. I think they've told Cassie a pack of lies about their 'meeting' and they may have good reasons for this (i.e. to protect the world or something like that) or they've lied because they have their own agenda. Artemis seemed far more caring and, well, motherly in Hunt the Moon than she did in Tempt the Stars. There's certainly more to come on these two.
I think Artemis and Roger might have their own agenda, it probably involves Cassie in some way their not willing to tell her or don't think she needs to know yet. Like the demons I find it a little hard to believe Artemis saw all the humans dying out and had a change or heart risking her life and power to shut her family of fellow gods out. It may not necessarily be for the reason the demons think though, and we just haven't found out enough about them to figure out/guess what it is. I don't think the two of them are bad guys either. Artemis was distant with Cassie and Roger when he saw her wasn't any better, there didn't seem to be too much fatherly love and concern there, he wasn't even interested too much in what the grown up version of his daughter was doing there, he wasn't surprised at her abrupt appearance, and he didn't ask why she came back in time rather that ask their present selves. I don't know about anyone else but I'd be a little concerned finding out me and my spouse died rather young.It might not be important but Roger definitely didn't like Agnes though Cassie's mom mentioned she thought she was a good woman, yet she still ran away with Roger knowing somehow the bad guys were closing in. Okay so Cassie goes back in time and helps Agnes capture Roger, he goes back to her court where he meets Artemis. Artemis helps him escape and he comes for her at that party where they run away together. And since Roger recognized Cassie at that party and freaked he probably thought she was with Agnes's court in some way. And that's how Cassie's mom told her they met, so maybe the problem is with Agnes? Agnes had told Cassie when they captured Roger than gave her ward to Cassie's mom who took it and ran off with some loser, but she didn't mention the loser was the guy she brought in from the guild, obviously because she hadn't caught him yet. Maybe Cassie's mom saw that Cassie would somehow need the ward in the future to survive the ley line exploding among other things and that's why she had borrowed it from Agnes and ran, so she didn't have to give it back. Maybe she knew she'd one day have a child from a vision or visiting the future and the reason she was so surprised was that it meant she survived the sons of Ares coming after her, and hey she ended up having her future daughters help to do it! I wonder if the memory lapse Agnes had is the timeline correcting itself and maybe bleeding through a little? Or maybe we're dealing with two different Agnes's, the one Cassie met when she helped capture Rogers was from farther in the future then the one she saw with her mother at that party? To one Agnes her mom had already run off, and to the other at the party it didn't happen yet. My brains having troubles thinking this thing through, so I don't know if that makes sense.
On Artemis and Roger's disinterest in Cassie, I suppose it's possible they're doing it to avoid corrupting the timeline? Maybe they're worried they'll accidentally reveal something in casual conversation that they shouldn't, and this is more likely if they become too friendly. Or perhaps they're doing to to protect Cassie? Maybe it's important that they keep her at a distance from them in order to protect her from some threat that Artemis has foreseen? I'm trying to find some justification for their behaviour. Even if they aren't particularly good people, it's still odd that they wouldn't give a damn about their own daughter, particularly when she risked her own life to protect her mother from the Spartoi. I think there's a specific reason for their attitude, but I don't know what it is.On the timeline inconsistency, I hadn't really thought about the ward itself being important, but I like your ideas, and this is perhaps exactly the sort of thing that Artemis might have foreseen. And the ward arguably saved Cassie's life right at the very beginning of TtD, when those vamps attacked Cassie and Tomas at the nightclub. But I still don't know how we get round the basic sticking point of Agnes telling Cassie her heir has run off. How can she have already run away with the guy Agnes is about to introduce her to! I'm starting to think that maybe it's not Agnes, but perhaps there are two Rogers kicking around the timeline, but my head does not want to go there!!!
I wrote this out before, but I find it helps to get things straight so I'm doing it again. From Agnes's POV, the timeline is as follows:
In the 80s (based on the dresses), Agnes attends a party with her heir, Artemis. Cassie and Mircea gatecrash the party, and Artemis runs away with Roger that same night.This just doesn't make sense! I think Cassie's going to do something in a future book that changes time. Or, perhaps, her visit to that party with Mircea already changed time? Roger shouldn't have been able to recognise Cassie at the party, since the parliament scene hasn't happened yet, but since Cassie's now visited her parents once, she may well visit them again (or encounter Roger, at least) and maybe that's how he recognises her. But none of this gets round the basic problem of Agnes's statements directly contradicting Artemis's. One of them is either lying or time has changed. I don't see any real reason for Agnes lying to Cassie, especially as she seemed quite horrified at the hints Cassie was dropping about the future. Artemis, on the other hand, could easily be lying, or maybe misdirecting might be a better word.
Some time after this (maybe a year or two, or more?), Agnes travels back to the Houses of Parliament in the early 1600s. She meets Cassie and says that her heir has run off. This scene MUST take place after the party from Agnes's POV, because Artemis is gone and Agnes is now training Myra.
During this same scene, she captures Roger and takes him back to her present time. Then Roger and Artemis supposedly meet for the first time, fall in love and run away together.
On Roger disliking Agnes, that could simply be down to the fact that she imprisoned him and I think she has a sharp tongue. I sorta took his attitude to be more like a guy moaning about his mother-in-law. But, there could easily be more to it than we know.
I had assumed Cassie just shifted to the room Mircea was in, Dory mentioned she didn't hear her come in and I think the door was closed. It's possible someone told Cassie or maybe when she found her unconscious body guards she contacted the senate/Marlowe and they told her what happened. Possibly she focused on Mircea when she figured out something was wrong with him and her power took her to where she could find him, focusing on the person rather than the place. I think that's what she did when Pritkin was gone and she fell asleep in his bed thinking of him, and of who she could ask about getting through a demon stronghold back when she thought her mom's house was guarded by them.Okay so maybe the time line issues are just due to so many people going back and confusing things and the timeline is doing its best to clean things up, I might think of something else later at some point, but right now I've looked at it from all the angels I could think of.
Also Cassie had a lot of people trying to kill her before when they thought she was just in the running for pythia, then she became pythia and I guess they stepped up their game,but now everyone knows she's Artemis's daughter the one who put up the spell the bad guys want to take down. Like they didn't need a reason to kill her enough before. Also I think it's sort of ironic before Jonas was back in charge how the majority of the circle was willing to bash Cassie not only because she was raised by vamps but also because of the rumors they had about Roger being a powerful leader of the black circle, only to come back around and see that she's the daughter of the reason their organization even exists and the one who "saved" in essence the humans. Instead of bribes Cassie should be getting a lot of appologies, though she hasn't received any yet. While going through the books again it's kind of upsetting how many people treat her so badly, even when she is pythia she is slightly discarded by a young human girl who doesn't know anything, and only her title is important, not the things she has done or the role she has played in fighting the good fight and bringing down the bad guys. She need's some R-E-S-P-E-C-T. Even in TTS Jonas keeping things from her was a slap in the face, she's still getting a lot of those. I'd love to see the scene where Cassie can tell the senate and consul she has demon allies (maybe she should see if the squid face demon lord would mind paying a courtesy call to Ming-de?)
If Cassie ever gets some time she should go back through time on the basis of collecting information she needs to know alone. It's time to play hard ball and dig up everything she can on Mircea, get some more information on her mom and dad, a few others? Ya know pull a Marlowe move just in case, it's worked out for him.
Myra was bad enough she constantly outsmarted Cassie, and even after all she has done Cassie couldn't bring herself to take care of the situation at the end Agnes did. Now there are 5 of these evil powerful girls running around, the kind who could murder the children they once helped take care of. I'm more worried about what they're going to do then Ares, I just don't see how Cassie's going to be able to keep up with them, or stop them.
Yeah, agree. I think Dorina is very prickly about getting the respect she deserves. Possibly that's a reason why she dislikes most vampires? They always slight her (well, slight Dory at least) and it infuriates her.
I think Dory/Dorina's merging is going to be a focus of the next book. I'm really curious to see how it comes about and to see how it changes Dory.