Karen Chance Fans discussion
Series Discussions
>
Theories, Hypotheses and Conspiracies
@Lannister I think Agnes probably got that hint but couldn't do anything. Any action she took regarding information she got from Cassie would seriously compromise the timeline. And since her job as Pythia is to prevent that at all costs, she probably just had to ignore it. I mean, who knows. Maybe she did act on the information Cassie gave her, and that's how they ended up in that mess in the first place.
I doubt it will be based around Cassie since an event that has an impact like that would need to be in the main Cassie Palmer series, not a short. I feel like Mircea definitely has a life outside of Cassie (and Dory, and the Senate) which I like as well. It shows he has more layers, and therefore more motivations. And we all know what results from this... more speculation :D
mmm, when I read it, I thought Mircea was visiting the pythias trying to get/find one to save Radu (which is outside the consul interests), but then cassie came along and he finally had one that did it ....mmmm but then you need to add in the change of time line thing, as this is heard by Cassie when she is pythia and had already saved Radu, but then it was back in time when she was still young and wasn't ..... ergh, this is somewhat hard on the brain.
Claire, Yeah, I see what you're saying. No one should know better than Agnes about the importance of protecting the timeline. However this is her future we're talking about. It hasn't happened to her yet, so she doesn't know how she should be reacting. It's an interesting idea that maybe Agnes did something that sent Myra rogue in the first place.Josie, yup, Mircea seems to have a long and complicated history. I want this Pythia thing to be related to some event from the past.
Karen, LOL, it's too confusing, isn't it. My brain sort of shuts down when I start trying to reason through all the implications.
Also, I remembered belatedly (oops!) that we're not supposed to be discussing this stuff outside of the Tempt the Stars spoiler thread. Bit late now, I know. But on the Pythia discussion, can we please use the spoiler tags or go discuss in the TtS thread. I know some people still haven't read the teaser chapters because they want to wait till the book is out, so let's not spoil anything else for them. Thanks, folks. :)
Regarding Agnes and Cassie's mum and dad, I actually think she was in on whatever was happening at that time, whether actively (like helping her flee) or passively (had a vision, let her go). Agnes isn't slow or stupid, and if she really wanted to find them after they ran, she could have IMO.
See I couldn't remember if the parliament scene in Agnes' timeline happened before or after the HtM party scene. So I guess Agnes didn't know. Which begs the question then: Why was Roger/Ragnar Palmer doing in the parliament scene if he was already with Artemis/Cassie's mom, possibly already with Cassie in the picture?
OH GOD...WHAT IF CASSIE MEETS DORY IN MASKS????? LIKE AS A CHILD???? That is my new crackpot theory...sort of. That Masks takes place AFTER the even in FK, soooooo...yeah...I like that. Well...sort of. I don't know, I just want it to happen.On Agnes...maybe what Cassie said led her to take her predecessor's advice about poison more seriously??????? Eh, eh??? Possibly??
I'm risking an aneurysm thinking about all this timeline stuff!Right, I've tried to detail it out below from the various POV's. I'm taking the Hunt the Moon party to be in the 80s (based on Artemis's dress). I've said the 90s in Agnes's timeline for simplicity. That might not be quite right, but I'll use it just for explanatory purposes.
From Cassie's POV:
Cassie travels back to the Houses of Parliament
She sees her father
Agnes tells her that Artemis has already run off
Later, Cassie goes to a party in the 80s and recognises her father, and he recognises her, so the parliament scene has already happened for both of them.
From Agnes's POV:
In the 80s, she attends a party with her heir
Cassie gatecrashes & Artemis and Roger run away together
In the 90s, Agnes travels back to Parliament, meets Cassie and captures Roger. She tells Cassie her heir has already run off (with the guy she's just captured!!) She takes Roger back to the 90s with her.
But it doesn't make sense from Roger's POV ...
From the 90s, he travels back to parliament and is captured and sees Cassie for the first time.
Yet in the 80s, he goes to the party and recognises Cassie?
How can he recognise Cassie when the parliament scene hasn't happened for him yet? I had thought at first that Roger didn't travel from the 90s back to parliament. If he travelled from, oh let's say 1800, it would make sense. But ... I remember Agnes saying that when someone caused a timeline problem, the reigning Pythia of that era dealt with it. So Roger had to have come from Agnes's era, or it would have been a different Pythia.
Can someone else explain this? Am I missing something obvious?
Could Cassie have met her father a third time, in a scene that has yet to happen from her POV (i.e. from a future book) but has already happened from his? We're assuming he recognises her from parliament, but maybe that's not correct.
BOOM!! (That was the sound of my head exploding)
WHAT IF...There are MORE instances when Roger and Cassie meet that we have yet to see?? That is what I have been thinking BECAUSE of HtM...
Also...I just read the paragraph I somehow missed the first time...my bad.
No worries. :)I think Cassie and Roger must meet again. Unless I'm utterly confused (and that is a definite possibility!!) it seems like that's the only explanation. I'd also bet the meeting isn't in the distant past. Unless he has an incredible memory for faces, it's surprising that Roger would recognise Cassie immediately. And he screams! However, if he'd encountered Cassie perhaps a few weeks prior to the party scene, it makes sense that he'd remember her.
Maybe we'll get more on this in Tempt the Stars.
MAYBE...there is more to Roger than meets the eye...I mean...he went back in time. I have a feeling that MAYBE to Roger the party took place AFTER Guy Fawkes day?? IDK, the time travel stuff with them gets SO confusing at times...obviously...
JUST HAD A BRAND NEW THOUGHT...OKAY, WHAT IF...after Cassie discovers that LC and Dory are an item, he wonders if THAT is why Mircea had that photo album, because he couldn't WOO HER away from LC!!!!!! Before she discovers thats his daughter obviously...BUT STILL. WOULDN'T THAT JUST BE GREAT????? and a bit of a twist??????? Just...kind of want THAT to happen...maybe Cassie's vindictive side comes out?? And she's all "I've technically had sex with your man!! HOH HOH HOH!!!" because of what Dory said to Cassie in FK.
I think I'm right in saying that Cassie hasn't really seen LC since Touch the Dark?? I love the idea about the photo album!I think a scene between Cassie, Dory & LC would be hilarious and I kinda want this to happen now! I'd also love to hear what LC really thinks about Cassie, perhaps in a conversation with Dory. I do remember Cassie thinking that LC was a bit full of himself, and she was sympathetic to Tomas when he complained about LC. So maybe it'll be the cowpat for Dory AND LC next time!! :D
Lannister wrote: "I'm risking an aneurysm thinking about all this timeline stuff!Right, I've tried to detail it out below from the various POV's. I'm taking the Hunt the Moon party to be in the 80s (based on Artem..."
Why do you say that Agnes came from the 90s? Is it possible that maybe she came from a time before the 80s party? Would that make the timeline work? Because when she says this:
“You’ve told me plenty! I have an initiate in training and she isn’t you. You said I got you into this, so what happened to her? Is she dead? Did she turn dark?” Her hands waved around, banging the mage’s head into the wall. “I don’t know!”Maybe Agnes is talking about Cassie's mum, whilst Cassie is thinking Myra? Could this work?
“Sort of both,” I said uneasily. Agnes’ second heir, Myra, had turned dark and began using her time-travel abilities for her own and her allies’ gain.
Josie, during the parliament scene Agnes mentions that her heir ran off while still wearing the ward that's supposed to protect the Pythia (see my comment no. 101 at the top of the page for the exact quote). Obviously this is Cassie's mum and not Myra. So, from Agnes's POV, the parliament scene has to have happened after the party scene. Artemis is there at the party, but she's run off by the time of the parliament scene. (Note, I said the 90s just to avoid confusion. It could easily still be in the 80s. It has to be time enough for them to decide Artemis isn't coming back, and to recruit Myra as the new heir. A decade is probably too long, but a year or two could work easily.)But regardless of the time between the two scenes, I think the parliament scene definitely came after the party (from Agnes's POV). I can't think of any timeline trickery that could get round this. Can you??
Maybe Roger is on his own timeline? I mean since he can time travel too...
Not helping!!! :PDo you think Artemis takes him backwards and forwards in time, or was he truly a member of the Guild?
Ah yes. Sorry I missed that part :)Okay, so onto my next theory! Maybe Roger didn't come from the 90s when trying to blow up parliament? Or when Cassie saw him at the 80s party, he'd once again come back in time?
ETA: Lol, I've just seen Zeenat post the same thing - GMTA!!!
On Guy Fawkes day, Roger seemed to be going with the flow, especially when Agnes assumed Cassie was a rare female member of the Guild, and he sneered and agreed. I think he's not a member of the guild, but then he said that he would stay....it just doesn't make sense.
Well, firstly, I don't think Guild members hop about the way Cassie does. I get the sense that time travel is difficult and dangerous for them and they'd need a good reason to do it. I don't know how the party would qualify (but who knows?)On Roger travelling back to the party in the 80s ... well, how did he get into the future, then? If Artemis is attending a party in the 80s, how did Roger get ahead of her in the timeline? We still don't know if Pythias can go forward in time, never mind the Guild. Did Artemis take him forward in time and leave him there, so she could go back and be the Pythian heir, right up until Roger travelled back to go to a party? Oh, and don't forget that probably within about five or six years of the party scene (give or take) both of them are dead! None of this makes sense to me and I'm demented thinking about it! :D
Cassie's birth date is an interesting topic though. She turns 24 during the second (or was it the third) book? Doesn't make a whole lot of difference either way. I don't know exactly when KC has set the books. Touch the Dark came out in 2006 and the series has only spanned 3 months, so does that mean it's still roughly set around that time? Cos that would mean Cassie was born around 1982, so Artemis could have run away around 1981 which just fits with the 80s party dress.
I can't figure this stuff out. I think I'm refraining from more crackpot theories until I read Tempt the Stars!
That's the hardest thing about this series that I have with trying to figure out. I can't figure out how Roger got to the party if he'd already met Cassie and Agnes on GFD. Because if that happened before the party, how did he get away from Agnes? She definitely took him with her when she left from that time period. Agnes didn't know him then and it seemed to be the first time that he'd seen her as well. I likely knew who she was, but they certainly didn't seem acquainted. But by this point, he and Artemis had already run off. So why would he have been working for the Guild if he was uncover at Tony's? And when he was at Tony's his hair was a different color. So, just when was it that he'd traveled back to this time? Perhaps the Agnes that traveled back to GFD did so after Artemis and Roger had run off, but this was an earlier version of Roger that they met before he was ever at that party or had run off to Tony's with Artemis. It's the only way that I can figure that it makes sense.
I think if Cassie travels back in time to sometime just before the party date, it's understandable without too much crazy time-shifting. I made up an approximate timeline. Note, all dates listed are COMPLETELY made up. It wasn't about accurately dating events (because we don't have enough info); it was about seeing the sequence in a roughly chronological order.What do you guys think of the following (bearing in mind, again, that none of these dates are book canon.)
Dec 1980/Jan 1981:
Cassie travels back in time looking for something or other & bumps into Roger (and does something to freak him out). Is Roger already working for Tony (more below)? Or is he with the Black Circle or Guild? (And why?)
**This hasn't happened in the books and is guesswork on my part**
Early 1981 (it's still winter):
Party in Hunt the Moon -Roger recognises Cassie and freaks
Roger/Artemis run away
Late summer 1981 (6 months later)
The world learns the Pythian heir has run away. Agnes appoints Myra as new heir
Autumn 1981
Artemis gets pregnant
Late 1980/early 1981?? (total guess)
Agnes travels back to Houses of Parliament - captures Roger
Somehow Artemis busts Roger out of Pythian jail? (she shifts him away?)
Early/Mid 1981?
Roger/Artemis in hiding from the Pythian Court.
Perhaps Roger goes to work for Tony now, since he said he wanted to lie low
Presumably he's now wearing the glamour of the dark-haired man
June/July 1982
Artemis gives birth to Cassie
Second half of 1986
Roger & Artemis are killed (Cassie is four)
Summer 2006 (Touch the Dark release, so presumably current time for the books)
Cassie turns 24
Does this seem plausible for a completely made up timeline LOL! It all hinges on Cassie making just one more trip at the start and it explains how Roger recognises Cassie without (supposedly) having seen her before.
That could possibly work.
I think that until TtS comes out we won't know...this kills me to admit, but ITS ONLY A WEEK AWAY!!!!!! YAYYYYYYY!!!!!!And...I have a feeling that BECAUSE Roger recognizes her in HtM, that is KC's way of being KC and foreshadowing things!! Much like the beginning of CtD with CASSIE'S FRIGGIN FATHER and no one had any clue. I don't think even WE had a crackpot theory about that. And, we have crackpot theories about EVERYTHING!!!
Okay so...also...I wonder when exactly Roger and Artemis met...I mean, I assume he was glamoured so that Agnes wouldn't recognize, but...GAHHHHHHH timeline is SOOOOOOO CONFUSING!!!!
Lol Claire!
Okay, weird little "conspiracy," I was talking to Camille awhile back and we joked around about how the characters from Night Huntress (if you don't know the series, I'm sorry) were like the girls from Mean Girls. SO, then, today, we started talking about how it also fit with the Cassie series.Mircea=Regina (Queen or King of the castle)
Marco=Gretchen (because...just because)
Marlowe=Karen (because I couldn't help myself)
LC=Katy (since they are both new and don't really know anyone)
Radu=Janice (since Radu wass probably the one who makes LC dress in buttercup yellow. And that would make Dory Damien.)
Lannister wrote: "I think if Cassie travels back in time to sometime just before the party date, it's understandable without too much crazy time-shifting. I made up an approximate timeline. Note, all dates listed ar..."I like your timeline-but it has a flaw; Roger didn't recognize Cassie on GFD, which, for Agnes happens after Artemis escaped and took her ward.
He recognizes her on the party, and he says that she works with Agnes, and I doubt there will be another meeting between the three of them.
I just remembered something: Agnes on the party-why was she frozen? Cassie was too, but she fought her way free and freed Mircea as well, but why was Agnes frozen, and unable to unfreeze herself?
I'm not sure why she was frozen unless Artemis is just that powerful. Though Cassie wasn't frozen and Artemis is certainly more powerful than she is. Could be the shared blood.
Scarlet wrote: "I like your timeline-but it has a flaw; Roger didn't recognize Cassie on GFD, which, for Agnes happens after Artemis escaped and took her ward"Huh. You're absolutely right! I should have spotted that. :)
OK, I give up. Someone must have gone into the future, cos unless Roger was pretending not to recognise Cassie at parliament, which seems extreeeemely unlikely to me, I just don't see how this can work. There's no logical explanation for how he could recognise her without having met her yet. I am too confused!!
On the frozen time thing, I'm thinking it must be down to Artemis's strength with the power. It could be a bond or godly connection between Cassie and her mother, but I'm thinking not because Cassie had to fight to be free too. When Agnes stopped time in Curse the Dawn, Cassie wasn't affected in the slightest (although possibly Agnes meant it that way), but I think this time Cassie was supposed to be trapped but it was only her own control of the Pythian power that allowed her to break free.
He didn't recognize her until the day of the party. He remembered seeing her in the past since it had already happened. He had no clue who she was the first time he saw her on GFD.
I mean, it could still work if Roger had come from a different time, right? For instance, he could've been in the "wrong" time for the 80s party.
It could. It really all depends on which version of Roger she met. We have no clue how he made it to that party, but it had to be a later version of the Roger that Cassie met on GFD because he freaked as soon as he saw her which means he remembered meeting her before.
Josie wrote: "I mean, it could still work if Roger had come from a different time, right? For instance, he could've been in the "wrong" time for the 80s party."But this would mean Roger and Artemis would need to be living in separate 'timezones'. And if we assume Artemis, as Pythian heir, is living through time day by day like a normal person, how (or why) did Roger end up in a different time? Did he travel to the future to go to the party (for instance, from the 1970s to the 1980s? Or, if he's in the future (e.g. the 1990s) travelling back to the past, how did Artemis come to be living in the 80s as Pythian heir? Did she live through the 80s then decide to hop backwards and change history by becoming the Pythian heir? Didn't she notice that she was dead LOL!
I had tended to think of Roger and Artemis as mostly sticking together in time, since he was supposed to be her companion 'through the ages'. So whilst I can see them being apart for a little while (like when Artemis was based at the Pythian Court), I never imagined them living decades or centuries apart! But possibly that's an incorrect assumption on my part.
I am becoming more convinced that it's possible for Pythias to go into the future. The fact that KC hasn't said flat out that they can't do it makes me believe they can. So it's certainly possible Roger and Artemis are hopping backwards and forwards all over the timeline.
Oh! There was something in one of the books that confirmed my suspicion of pythias being able to travel to the future... I can't remember which one, maybe Curse the Dawn. But something about people always coming to Pythias because only THEY can truly understand the implications of the decision. Just the way it was worded made me think that they could travel to the future to see what would happen if they chose one way or the other. It could simply mean that they are clairvoyant, but again it was worded very specifically...
It was Curse the Dawn, Marsden speaking about the Pythian court and her responsibilities:“A court of mediation for high-level disputes among the supernatural community. For example, if the Clan Council of the Weres were to have a dispute with the vampire Senate that they could not work out themselves, they might bring it to you in an effort to avoid bloodshed. The Pythia can best judge these cases because she alone can see how the dispute will end if it is not resolved.”
Well...she IS a clairvoyant...it kind of is in the title that she can SEE into the future...I think it's the ACTUALLY going into it thing that even with that quote I'm not 100% convinced about.
Well, in CtD, Cassie had plenty of visions in which she was moving around as if she was there; there was the blown-up Dante's and the road of doon with the destroyed cars with the corpses. I used to think that Cassie did go to the future like this. I explained it to myself like this: the Pythia's gift knows everything, so when she wanted a vision of the outcome of her changing the timeline(by stopping herself from attending the meeting at the beginning of the book and then later, getting into that Bentley and supposedly saving Rafe), the gift took her to an alternative futre, taking into account her intention, regardless of the fact that she hadn't done it.Anyway, after a while, and some answers by KC on the matter, I figured they are just very active visions-although I don't remember any vision of Cassie allowing her to actually participate in her surroundings like in those two.
Good point, Scarlet. But was she moving around like she was there, or just seeing herself moving around in a future that looked like that? I'd have to reread those scenes again to see how clearly they were written, but I remember which ones you're talking about.
I was just wondering why no one has (that I noticed) mentioned Marlowe as Snakey's successor.Clearly Mircea could take him---if he wanted the position. I believe he doesn't.
But who has the mind, the brains, the power, the connections and allies---or could have as the war progresses?
Then it dawned on me: Dorina
I don't think Marlowe would want the position of Consul either. He likes playing the sneaky SOB. lolDorina would be good... but would the rest of the vampires follow her? And then would Dorina actually be willing to be leader of the senate? I don't think so.
I think Dory (or, more accurately, Dorina) would have a hard time trying to take over the Senate. We've seen continually how other vamps treat her, and I think there could be a mini-riot if she were to put in charge of every vamp in North America. And how would the other Consuls feel about dealing with a despised dhampir? The American Senate could lose a lot of respect.It's possible, I suppose, that maybe Dory will do something as part of the war effort that wins her much greater support but I'm not entirely convinced. Vamps don't usually like change and attitudes towards dhampirs have been unchanged for a long time. Dory would need to do something phenomenal to change centuries' worth of prejudice. And, as Zeenat says, would she even want to? We've seen Dorina's POV a few times and she doesn't seem to like vamps much at all. Unless she's a bit of sadist and wants to make them suffer for every slight she's endured, I don't know that she'd want to govern them.
On Marlowe, I dunno. I think I agree with Zeenat that he prefers to be in the background. I'm almost certainly convinced that if the Consul were killed in the war, Marlowe would support Mircea, and Mircea is the best candidate of the two with his mental skills and diplomacy. The Consul's job is all about politicking, and Mircea does that best. Only way Marlowe doesn't support Mircea, in my opinion, is if Mircea's the one to kill Her Snakiness!!
I'm pretty positive that Dory will never be Consul. Aside from the fact that no one would follow her, she doesn't have the temperament. Dory does not do diplomacy. She'd be a nightmare as the leader of all North American vampires. I also don't think she'd want the job. Dory may have changed her mind about the value of certain vampires, but I don't think she appreciates the rest of them.Also, I wondering: Dory's rage issues are caused by her master vampire half taking over when threatened. So does this mean all dhampirs are really split personalities?
Claire wrote: "...So does this mean all dhampirs are really split personalities"I don't thinks so, we know Mircea interfered when split her mind into human/dhampir to enable her human body/nature to develop at a slower rate than her dhampir nature - so she didn't go 'insane' which is what apparently happens to the majority. But Dory also commented that the mix isn't consistent, i.e. some come out more human than vamp (I think she also went on to mention that they could live normal lives with just some heighten senses)
Yeah but what about the others with rage issues? What is that caused by?
Maybe they did go insane? They did not have a vampire father hell bent on saving them no matter what. Plus the vampire and human halves could have been less of a '50-50' in other dhampirs. So depending on which half is dominant could decide on a lot of things. Remember the other Dhampir Dory talks about? He lived in a desert and used meditation to calm the rages, and he warned her to leave before he killed her. Maybe that was just his vampire half being territorial and he did not get it? So he was less rational even when 'human' while Dory is completely human when Dory, and completely 'vampire' when Dorina.
I tended to think that the dhampir insanity issues were caused by two different natures warring with each other inside the same person. Obviously most dhampirs don't have the walled-off split that Dory does, but I think they're made up of two opposing forces. I think of it like an infection in the body, where your antibodies fire up to attack the invader, but sometimes the body goes haywire and ends up attacking itself. A dhampir's mind is probably like that. Dory was protected (most of the time) because her two natures were separated so they weren't fighting each other. I don't think most dhampirs are split personalities as directly as Dory is, but I imagine the fight for dominance would send anyone loopy.As for Dory's rage, now that we know a bit more, is that not Dorina taking over (usually when Dory's in a fight) as a form of self-protection? Dory always thought she blacked out when angry and assumed it was a problem with anger/rage, but I had the feeling after Fury's Kiss that Dorina took control because she's a better fighter with vampire reflexes and so on. It's not about dhampir rage per se. It's more that Dorina's presence was needed when Dory was in a fight (and therefore just happened to be angry).
It's also probably when Dorina feels as though she's trapped or has been slighted. Like when Dory nearly had a fit in her backyard during FK-- it was because LC had done something that was incredibly insulting to a first level master. No one gives Dory the respect she deserves, and it probably pisses Dorina off. It's weird to think of them as separate people, since they're nearly the same. Hmmmm. I'm hoping for a seamless integration of her two halves, now that her human and vampire halves are mature.
When Cassie meets Agnes at the Parliament scene in Hunt the Moon, Artemis has already run off. Agnes says to Cassie "I loaned my ward to my heir for a training exercise right before she eloped with some loser. Naturally, she didn’t bother to give it back first." So Agnes couldn't give her blessing, because they'd already gone. So, from Agnes's POV, the party in Hunt the Moon happened before the Parliament scene.
I'm surprised Agnes didn't try to do something about Myra, given Cassie's hints that she'd gone to the Dark Side. I don't quite know what Agnes could do, but you'd think she'd do something!
Lia, I wondered about this too. For instance, we know in Masks that Cassie and Mircea go back to Venice, probably in the 1500s. It's possible that they become separated and Cassie bumps into the Mircea from that timezone, and he figures out what she is. That would fit with his pre-Senate interest. Or, of course, his interest might have nothing to do with Cassie.
Until I have more information, my feeling is it's not Cassie-related. I sort of don't want it to be Cassie related, because I find it a bit weak when book characters have no life or interests outside of each other. Mircea trying to fix his family I can understand, given his personality. Mircea hunting for Cassie for nearly 500 years doesn't feel so good, unless there's an extremely good reason for it. And if he had been hunting for her for this long, why hasn't he been over-joyed at finally finding her? Or even mentioned it in some way?
I hope it's something else entirely. No disrespect meant towards Cassie, but I don't want every storyline to be about her.