Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
This topic is about
Fadeout
ARCHIVE BOM Discussions
>
August 2013: Fadeout
Hello Johanna, and thanks for the welcome... ;) Oh, damn, sorry your book is falling apart!! I will keep that in mind when starting to read mine... Good luck with fixing it, won't be easy I guess... :(
I suppose with the thin paper and the quantity of pages it will be really difficult to read... I will have to figure out the best reading position to avoid breaking the book... (my favourite reading position is of course lying in bed, but I am not sure if that will work properly with this book...)
Haha, slow reader, huh? You just started reading a few days ago and are already busy with book 3!!!!
And I am right now still 10000 km far away from my book!! :D :D :D
And I found the other discussion totally by accident. I was reading here on my little Ipod touch and, well sometimes, while online with my Ipod, I click in places where I didn't really plan to click with my stubby fingers... :D :D
Mod
So sorry your book is falling apart Jo! If it was fewer pages I'd suggest getting book repair tape, but it sounds like a bigger problem than what tape can fix. If the pages are In a big clump perhaps some book binding glue will help. You might be able to buy some on Amazon. I don't know.
Next best thing I can recommend is a rubber band so at least they don't fall out in transit or anything. Good luck!
Mod
I knew that you might have some good advice for me, since you work in library (lucky you). :-) Thank you for the tip about the book binding glue, Jordan! I didn't even know there were a special kind of glue for that. And yes, some of the pages are in a big clump, but there are also alarming amount of individual pages on the loose...
Jordan wrote: "Next best thing I can recommend is a rubber band so at least they don't fall out in transit or anything. Good luck!"
LOL. I've been using giant sized paper clips for that... ;-)
Mod
Sadly, our library prefers that we buy a new copy of a dead book, rather than try to fix the old one. So depending on the style of the book (hardcover, softcover...) and the amount of damage we might do minor fixes or pitch it.
Mod
btw, no news yet from the publisher on book two being available in ebook. I'll keep looking and try to figure out what to do. These might have to be bought in print.
Mod
I'm really hoping I can get book two soon!
Jordan wrote: "Just started this last night... of course, just as I got an idea for a novel. So, let's hope the two don't compete too much in my head! So far it's very good!btw, no news yet from the publisher o..."
I think you might only be stuck buying
Death Claims as a physical book. The rest are available in ebook from Open Road Media.
http://www.openroadmedia.com/troublem...
Mod
I checked out the publishers site and Death Claims is $9.99 for an Adobe Digital Editions version. Normally I don't complain about ebook prices, but that's a lot, for something I would only be able to read on the laptop I hate with the screen that's too small to read anything on. Totally not worth it. Will have to buy this in print. I think you're right. *sigh*
I haven't heard back from them yet since I emailed last week.
I've just finished Death Claims. It's very good. But best buy a second-hand print copy I think!
Jordan wrote: "I checked out the publishers site and Death Claims is $9.99 for an Adobe Digital Editions version. Normally I don't complain about ebook prices, but that's a lot, for something I would only be able to read on the laptop I hate with the screen that's too small to read anything on. ..."Yeah, the cost-per-page is a little high and the Adobe format is an absolute pain in the tuckus. I'm sure Open Road will eventually bring out a format of the e-book that's better suited for e-readers. Frustrating that it's only that one book that's fallen through the cracks, though.
Mod
When I ordered all of the Michael Nava books in print, I ordered them all used, but didn't realize there were different publishers and thus different style covers and sized books. I should have thought of that before buying them because none of them match. They're all different sizes. It the books were at least the same size, it wouldn't be so bad.
I went to see if I could get all of the Dave B. books from the same publisher but I don't think I could unless I bought what I could now and waited to see if the others become available. Oh well.
btw, I just realized that Dave's initials (D.B.) are the cop slang term for a dead body. lol. I wonder if that was done on purpose? Probably not. But it's still pretty funny.
Jordan wrote: "I checked out the publishers site and Death Claims is $9.99 for an Adobe Digital Editions version. Normally I don't complain about ebook prices, but that's a lot, for something I would only be able to read on the laptop I hate with the screen that's too small to read anything on. Totally not worth it. "I agree with you about that; I would hate to read on my computer. I see them on my Nook at the Barnes & Noble store for $8.49 each. I assume they will be epub format, and of course they will go on my Nook and should have easy readability. I was holding off buying them myself, since that's more than I generally care to pay for an ebook, but it's sure less than $9.99 each.
Hmmm, perhaps I should get a sample of one of the books to make sure it is formatted correctly. I'm discovering that some publishers have their standard print size set too small for these old eyes, but then the next step up is HUGE print. Come on folks, give us a better range for reading comfort!
Oops, edited to say I didn't realize you meant ONLY Death Claims until after I posted my message. Indeed, Death Claims does not seem to be available on my Nook either. Sorry for not reading your message properly.
Mod
It does seem to be only Death Claims.
I figure I bought that one in print cheap enough. If it comes out for kindle again, I can can afford to buy it again.
Sadly, I need to ensure I can pay my rent for next month, which just went up again, before I spend $80 on the rest of this series. But I'm seriously thinking I should just buy them all at once to ensure I've got them.
The Kindle pricing was about $7.99 each, so still not entirely cheap, but worth it, I think, especially after reading the first one. I polished it off it two days! And didn't realize time was flying by so quickly. I went back and looked at the number of pages for the print edition and was surprised I'd read 190 pages in that amount of time!
Mod
Sigh, now lets see if the bookstore has packaged up my item yet or not now that I don't need it!
Mod
I'll ship the book anywhere in the world once I get it. I should be able to ship it out the Monday after next if it arrives on time. Mint condition book, and I'm not charging anyone for it. So if you need a copy of Death Claims in readable print, let me know.
Mod
Mod
John wrote about how visual this story is, and John and Johanna referenced Ginsberg's "Song." I've been making notes on how the rain creates an emotional setting for the opening of the story (the first five chapters). Then comes Chap. 6, a gut punching read. I'm in awe of how Hansen constructs this story — showing, not telling — and how the nuanced descriptions of the characters give us clear visuals and deeper meaning. Dave's capacity for empathetic compassion shines, even as he kicks himself for his flaws and sees through others' flaws to their humanity.
Rain and leaves in the first chapters, then an explanation of Dave's grief in the 6th. Here are some of the rain descriptions and some other favorites so far. What struck me is the attention to specific detail, like leaves clinging to shoes. The page numbers are from The Complete Brandstetter.
He got up quickly, blindly, and walked down the long room to stare out the glass doors into the flagged patio, rocks and moss, where rain wept into a dark lily pond under mournful ferns.
Chap. 2, p. 9
Then they were in the rain, climbing flagged steps between rock-walled flower beds under Japanese maples. Fallen leaves clung to his shoes. Chap. 2, p. 9
He tried to read in Buddy’s eyes, which were gray like the rain, and the only thing not moving in his beautiful tormented face, how important it was. Chap. 5, p. 26
The rain had brought down the tree’s tattered, blackened leaves, plastered the hood and roof with them. Chap. 5, p. 26
In twenty years you could say and do a lot you wish you hadn’t. In twenty years you could store up a lot of regrets... you could stop sleeping for regret, stop eating, talking, working, for regret. You could stop wanting to live. You could want to die for regret. Chap. 6, p. 27
The kid was feminine. A flit. Nobody he could live with. A decorator, for God’s sake! One cut above a hairdresser. Chap. 6, p. 28
“They think you’re an ogre.”
“I am,” Dave said. “I eat boys. But very selectively. Come here. Let me show you.” Chap. 6, p. 29
These are lovely passages, Karen. I was very touched reading about Dave's grief and also by Hansen's wisdom and lovely way with words.One thing I has tought about during the whole book: we know, from the preface, that he wanted to tell the story about Dave to show the world that gay people are normal, thinks and feels and acts like everybody, that they are everybody, and that it was so important for him to have the book published also because of this. And maybe why it was so hard to have them published as well. It is a thread thoughout the story.
But, is that why he starts out talking in a disparaging way about feminine gays, see the quote from Karen? And later when he talks about Buddy's friends, to distance himself from that part of gay culture? To make it more palatable to readers? From reading gay history from Stonewall and forward, it seems there was an issue between those who would 'normalise' homosexuality and those who said it is all a part of it.
But then Dave ends up with Buddy for twenty years, despite his feminine ways, I love that part of it!
I think it is interesting, and I would like your thoughts on it. I don't judge Hansen on it, there might be good reasons for it, like babysteps forward to reach an aim. Or it might be how he thought, you don't have to like all the ways humans express theselves, that goes for me as well, I have little patience with bimbo behaviour from fellow females for instance :) And I know, that beneath any behaviour, there beats a human heart, like Dave sees with Buddy.
I think that the long relationship that Dave had with Rod (NB: Buddy is Phil Mundy's brother) is a kind of antidote for the disparaging comments that popped up in Dave's head when they first met.
Karen, thank you for the passages you quoted. I had noticed the rain in a couple of scenes, but I didn't remember it was so extensively present.
Antonella wrote: "I think that the long relationship that Dave had with Rod (NB: Buddy is Phil Mundy's brother) is a kind of antidote for the disparaging comments that popped up in Dave's head when they first met."Thank you, I didn't check the names when I wrote my post :). And I agree with you, it is an antidote to the thoughts in Dave's head, but it is still an interesting duality in the book.
Mod
Karen wrote: "I'm in awe of how Hansen constructs this story — showing, not telling — and how the nuanced descriptions of the characters give us clear visuals and deeper meaning."
Yes. And it's almost unbelievable how strong, how intense sense of place Hansen creates that way. His books were never filmed, but they are so visual that reading them feels a lot like watching a movie.
Karen wrote: "What struck me is the attention to specific detail, like leaves clinging to shoes."
I had post-ited those leaves, too. And the ones that plastered the hood and roof in a quote you posted. What a great image. It has such sorrowful finality in it.
I have the chapter 6 full of post-its. What an overwhelming mix of happiness and pain and wisdom this chapter is! I loved the short but powerful description of how their relationship evolved and what their everyday life was like. All those things they thought differently about, things about Rod that drove Dave crazy from time to time and the things that made Dave love him. The good memories that stopped you killing yourself (page 27, chapter 6). It's definitely one of the very best chapters I've ever read. What a perfect way to capture the pain of losing the loved one. What a perfect way to say how insignificant a quarrel over some little thing like leaving the clothes and the magazines lying around is in the end when you look at it all from a certain perspective. How insignificant it is that a man acts feminine, when that man is a human being, love of someone's life and now, gone:
They'd liked sharing detective stories — Arthur Crook, Nero Wolfe, Miss Marple, characters he wouldn't read about again because they wouldn't speak the same without Rod's voice. He read well. If he hadn't been so nelly he'd have made a fine actor. But it hadn't been possible to school out of him all the femininity. Dave had tried. So had Rod. The affectations went, but what underlay them was ingrained. Real. Himself. Dave gave up trying after a while. Age took care of it to some extent. Death took care of it completely." (page 30, chapter 6)
Maybe there lays one answer to Anne's questions?
Anne wrote: "But, is that why he starts out talking in a disparaging way about feminine gays, see the quote from Karen? And later when he talks about Buddy's friends, to distance himself from that part of gay culture? To make it more palatable to readers? From reading gay history from Stonewall and forward, it seems there was an issue between those who would 'normalise' homosexuality and those who said it is all a part of it."
I, too, have been pondering over this, especially while I read the #3 Troublemaker. I'd be very interested to hear what others think about it.
Mod
Yes. I think you are right. It's a clever way to show us a quite common prejudice and annul it (ETA: or at least deal with it) based on the personal experience of the main character.
Mod
Anne wrote: "Anne wrote: … we know, from the preface, that he wanted to tell the story about Dave to show the world that gay people are normal, thinks and feels and acts like everybody, that they are everybody, and that it was so important for him to have the book published also because of this....One of the things that’s been rolling over in my head this: It’s not simply that Dave Brandstetter is “just as good as a heterosexual” a unraveling the puzzle here. There’s something in Dave’s character that makes him uniquely suited to solve this mystery. The assertion here, I think, is not that a homosexual detective is “just as good” as a heterosexual detective, but that there is a perspective Dave (as homosexual) brings to the case that makes him better. That’s fairly important, I think. If Dave is “just as good,” his being gay is an interesting quirk, perhaps something one might regard (thinking as a 1967 reader might) as something he’d overcome in order to be “just as good.” But as the story unfolds, we see that Dave’s experience gives him insights that a “normal” sleuth would miss - and these insights are critical to solving what happened to Fox Olson and why.
Antonella wrote: "I think that the long relationship that Dave had with Rod is a kind of antidote for the disparaging comments that popped up in Dave's head when they first met."And rather ironic given his advice to Madge in Chapter 10: "'Pick an ugly one next time.' ... 'Find some lonely, simplehearted plain Jane of forty. I’ve told you that before." ... "He always gave her the same advice. Find somebody your own age and mentality and background."
Decidedly not what Dave did with Rod and the irony isn't lost on him. (And if the reader was doltish enough to miss it, Hansen drives it home in that farcical little scene with Anselmo, Madge and the age-appropriate-Miss Levy at the very end of the book.)
But Dave (we learn a few paragraphs later) isn't one to judge a book by its cover very long: "''There was a guy in the army. Name of George Starkovich. One of the ugliest men I ever saw. Squat. Hairy. But inside he was beautiful. He was one of the nicest things that ever happened to me in my life.'"
Chapter 6 may give more of Dave's history, but I think we see more of what makes Dave tick in Chapter 10.
John wrote: "Anne wrote: "Anne wrote: … we know, from the preface, that he wanted to tell the story about Dave to show the world that gay people are normal, thinks and feels and acts like everybody, that they a..."Oh yes, definitely that.
I was also wondering why Hansen made Rod such a stereotype, with his love of musicals and certain film stars. The other aspect which he slips in is that Rod was a very successful businessman, albeit in a trade which might also be stereotypical - interior design. He makes the point without saying it that a homosexual (I noticed he didn't use the word 'gay' until - I think - the third book) can also be successful even if he is feminine etc.. And of course Dave B is also very good at his job.
John wrote: "One of the things that’s been rolling over in my head this: It’s not simply that Dave Brandstetter is “just as good as a heterosexual” a unraveling the puzzle here. There’s something in Dave’s character that makes him uniquely suited to solve this mystery. The assertion here, I think, is not that a homosexual detective is “just as good” as a heterosexual detective, but that there is a perspective Dave (as homosexual) brings to the case that makes him better. ..."I agree with you, John.
Karen wrote: "I've been afraid to look at the posts on this topic because I'm "behind" in my re-read of Fadeout. I read it in January and have just finished my re-read through Chapter 6 (about a third through th..."Karen - thank you for your careful analysis of the rain references - I was aware of it as a recurring theme. It is so well done, and reminds me of a poem which I can't call to mind in which Nature is mourning too.
Johanna wrote: "What a perfect way to capture the pain of losing the loved one. What a perfect way to say how insignificant a quarrel over some little thing like leaving the clothes and the magazines lying around is in the end when you look at it all from a certain perspective. How insignificant it is that a man acts feminine, when that man is a human being, love of someone's life and now, gone..."I too thought Chapter 6 was masterful.
Mod
I also loved his descriptions about the rain! I was in a movie while reading this. I might have been off to the side, but I really felt like I was right there getting soaked and covered in wet leaves.
John wrote: "Decidedly not what Dave did with Rod and the irony isn't lost on him."Do we know how much younger was Rod than David? I assumed he was younger, but I didn't think there was a big age difference.
We know they met in December 1949, and then Rod was ''a boy''. At the time of the narration (1968?) Dave is going to be 45. Any other clues?
Antonella wrote: "We know they met in December 1949, and then Rod was ''a boy''..."Um. I think it was Christmas 1945 that they met, when Dave is freshly demobbed. I read "boy" as more to do with attitude than of chronological age. Not more than five years difference between them, certainly; based on comments in the subsequent books, I think Dave and Rod were basically contemporaries.
They're a little like Doug and Fox had they not lost each other, aren't they? I suspect that may have crossed Dave's mind, though it's not explicitly mentioned.
John wrote: "I think it was Christmas 1945 that they met, when Dave is freshly demobbed."True, I had read it wrong, it's December 1945 (chapter 6, page 27 ''The Complete Brandstetter''). The same date is quoted also in Death Claims.
John wrote: "Antonella wrote: "We know they met in December 1949, and then Rod was ''a boy''..."Um. I think it was Christmas 1945 that they met, when Dave is freshly demobbed. I read "boy" as more to do wit..."
I got that feeling too, that Dave and Rob's story sort of was the story Doug and Fox "should" have had. Again, if we think about Hansen's aim to tell people about gays, it sort of also shows how wrong it is that society's norms and prejudices keep people away from happiness. It is not said in so many words, but that is the image he so very skillfully creates in the book by putting these two life stories together, so we can see the differences.
I have read several of the Brandstetter books many years ago, I quite accidentaly found seven of them in a store in Oslo and fell in love, but will reread them later for the challenge, so I don't remember that much detail, except one thing that has stuck with me, and that is how Hansen care about the people in his books, how compassion shines through for people in very different situations. There is a kind of humanity that flows throughout the books, at least that's how I remember them and what I found in Fadeout, which wasn't among the ones I had read by the way.
Anne wrote: "There is a kind of humanity that flows throughout the books"Absolutely! For ex. I wanted to point out for ex. how Dave describes Buddy, and how he treats him.
Antonella wrote: "Anne wrote: "There is a kind of humanity that flows throughout the books"Absolutely! For ex. I wanted to point out for ex. how Dave describes Buddy, and how he treats him."
Yes, it's wonderful to read those passages.
ETA: Hansen is named as one of Josh's inspirations, and I can see some of iit in his books, that flow of humanity for one.
Mod
Yes. Definitely this. And Hansen has written Dave to be a very compassionate character. Dave has been around the block and he's going through a rough time in his personal life, but he's still capable of feeling compassion towards others. Such an admirable trait.
Mod
So true, Karen. The same thing happened to me when I came back home from work today. Such a pleasure to read the lovely discussion here! :-)
Mod
Yes, this is very interesting, John. And I definitely agree.
Mod
The very end of chapter 10 is extremely touching, isn't it. I have to admit that I had to read it several times before I started to understand it. Reading Allen Ginsberg's poem Song helped a lot (Thank you, John, for posting it earlier!). The chapter leaves me with a slightly bittersweet taste. And one of the things I like so much in Fadeout is the mature, down-to-earth voice of Dave's.
How did you all find the end of the chapter 10?
Johanna wrote: "...The chapter leaves me with a slightly bittersweet taste. And one of the things I like so much in Fadeout is the mature, down-to-earth voice of Dave's.How did you all find the end of the chapter 10? "
Well, there's a lot about Dave Brandstetter's character in this book that is bittersweet. He is, after all, going through the difficult process of grieving Rod. He's doing it in a way that I think readers would recognize: in stages the completion of which he barely has conscious recognition. The end of Chapter 10 is one of those, I think.
Madge's offer (that she and Dave to give up the search for partners and settle for companionship), is something Dave might, at an earlier stage, have jumped at. There is a lot in what Madge says - that she's not going to find a reliable companion and he's never going to replace Rod - that might seem true at a stage of grief where hope is still on holiday. But that Dave can respond to "I wanted to set the weight down" with "Not bloody likely" is a sign (to me, anyway), that hope has returned. Madge offers a companionable resignation. Dave's realized that he's not ready for that.
It's interesting to me that as Fox Olson becomes more elusive, as he fades away, Dave does the opposite. In the beginning of the book he's very much a shadow, but in fits and starts through the book, his color begins to return. So rather than being bittersweet, this passage reads to me more like green shoots. He's not there yet, and it's all a bit exhausting, but it's not the self-annihilation we saw at the beginning of the book.
I was reading about Joseph Hansen on Wikipedia the other day, and today decided to follow a couple of the links. The best of them was the link to Hansen's obituary in the Washington Post. I thought I'd post the link in case anyone was interested.http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/...
What had me revisiting the page was that I remembered reading that Hanson was married to Jane Bancroft, a lesbian, for fifty-one years. One wonders if it's the sort of arrangement Madge had in mind, or if, in fact, it's what Fox Olson's character should have had in a more forgiving world.
There is mention of Hansen's desire to right a few wrongs about preconceptions of gay people, which I must admit I enjoy coming across in the Brandstetter books because they're done with such humor and gentle irony. (One item mentioned in the Post article is that while Dave's heterosexual father had nine wives, Dave (the "promiscuous" homosexual) has lived with his partners "till death do them part.")
Anne wrote: "Hansen is named as one of Josh's inspirations, and I can see some of it in his books, that flow of humanity for one. ..."Most certainly. Even the prickliest of Josh's protagonists has a compelling humanity. They're not merely characters you like, they're characters you admire.
But where I see the similarity most strongly is the marvelous density of description. Short, direct sentences that paint a vivid scene like a paintball gun hitting it's target. I've always admired that about Josh's work, and I admire it in Hansen's. Though I'll admit, there are moments when I think Hansen, giggling up his sleeve, goes completely over the top with his similes and metaphors. It's as if he's not above parody even of himself.
Here's a bit of what I mean, from the start of Chapter 15:
"Bell Beach was lost miles from the freeway. Sand lay in the empty, sun-baked streets. Wiry brown grass thrust through the sand. In the grass, gulls and pelicans stood like moth-eaten museum pieces. The buildings were cheap stucco with mad carnival turrets. Gaudy paint had faded and scabbed off. Shingles had curled and turned black. Windows were broken. Where not broken they were boarded up, had been for years: the rust from nailheads had written long, sad farewells down the salt-silvered planks. The corrugated iron roof of a hot-dog stand had slumped in. A metal filling station turned to black lace in the sun. Beyond padlocked grillwork in a crimson-and-gilt barn shadowy carrousel horses kicked through gray curtains of cobweb."
John wrote: " Though I'll admit, there are moments when I think Hansen, giggling up his sleeve, goes completely over the top with his similes and metaphors. It's as if he's not above parody even of himself...."I agree with you - I thought the same, every now and then, when he seems to go so over the top. But then it dos build up the atmosphere very well!
John wrote: "What had me revisiting the page was that I remembered reading that Hanson was married to Jane Bancroft, a lesbian, for fifty-one years. One wonders if it's the sort of arrangement Madge had in mind,..."Having read another obituary of Hansen recently, I also thought of this.
Mod
That sounds reasonable. I definitely think you are right about this, John. I recognize a sort of turning point (or at least a some kind of milestone) here, but now when you pointed out the stages of Dave's grieving process, it helps me to understand the big picture further.
Mod
What an interesting observation! :-)
Q&A with Josh Lanyon
Books mentioned in this topic
Death Claims (other topics)Troublemaker (other topics)
In Plain Sight (other topics)
In the Best Families (other topics)
Death Claims (other topics)
More...
And thank you for posting the link for the other Fadeout discussion. I didn't know about it.
I'm having a minor problem with my The Complete Brandstetter: it's falling apart. The pages 21-76 had fallen out entirely already. :( I guess I made the mistake of reading it in warm sunlight in the garden and the glueing didn't take that very well... In fact, I think I'm going to have to try to repair it somehow... with glue I suppose? I'm currently on page 214 and it seems that the rest of the book is ok for now... the most problematic pages are the ones from 6-100... ;-)