The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion
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The Fortune of the Rougons
Émile Zola Collection
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The Fortune of the Rougons - Reading Schedule.
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Zulfiya
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Jul 19, 2013 12:19AM
Work in Progress. Chapter-wise it is tricky. I have some ideas, but I need to sleep on them and post ...
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So I mulled over the reading schedule for a while, and it turned out to be quite a tricky and elusive little thing because the SEVEN chapters are so diverse in size. Please do not be surprised by the number of dates allocated per each chapter. I decided to stick to the original chapters, and instead changed the number of days per each chapter.
Finally, this is the result of my mathematical approximations.
August 11 - August 17 - Chapter 1
August 18 - August 28 (10 DAYS) - Chapter 2
August 29 - September 7 (10 DAYS) - Chapter 3
September 8 - September 18 (10 DAYS) - Chapter 4
September 19 - October 02 (TWO WEEKS) - Chapter 5
October 03 - October 16 (TWO WEEKS) - Chapter 6
October 17 - October 24 - Chapter 7
Roughly similar in size short chapters are given a week each; 70-80 pages in a chapter can be too hard to handle for multi-readers per week; consequently, chapters 2,3 and 4 are given the benefit of ten days. Finally, quite large, semi-novelette size chapters (Chapters 5 and 6) will be discussed for two weeks.
It is only a tentative schedule. Please share your thoughts, and if anyone has better ideas how to optimize this schedule, do not hesitate to 'voice' that is post your thoughts. I am really open to suggestions.
Jack wrote: "ZulfiyaI think you miscalculated the time for Chapter 6. You SAY two weeks, but you've only, in fact, given it one week. Maybe it should run until Oct 16, with the final chapter running Oct 17 to ..."
I do agree since we could lose track of the narrative itself.
Jack wrote: "ZulfiyaI think you miscalculated the time for Chapter 6. You SAY two weeks, but you've only, in fact, given it one week. Maybe it should run until Oct 16, with the final chapter running Oct 17 to ..."
Sorry , I think there were too many things on my mind. I will update the schedule immediately.
I read this fairly recently, so will pop into the discussion when I can. While I don't think this is as good as some of the others, this book is important to lay the foundation for the other 19 novels in the series.
Mod
Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "I read this fairly recently, so will pop into the discussion when I can. While I don't think this is as good as some of the others, this book is important to lay the foundation for the other 19 nov..."So do I but I will wait for the next readings to come.
I read the book a few months ago, but I'll enjoy reading it again with this group. I think the pace you've chosen is perfect.
Would someone please be so kind as to re-remind us what (English) translations are available for The Fortune of the Rougons? (I have the Brian Nelson one on my ebook.)This translators note appears in my copy:
"I AM very happy to have produced only the second new translation of La Fortune des Rougon since the late nineteenth century (the other translation is by Robert Smith, published by Grand Oak Books in 2011). The novel was translated anonymously for the publisher Henry Vizetelly, who published this translation in 1886. Graham King has commented on what he terms the ‘glutinous prolixity’ of this anonymous translation (Garden of Zola: Emile Zola and his Novels for English Readers (London: Barrie & Jenkins, 1978), 376). This comment is only mildly uncharitable. Ernest Vizetelly, Henry’s son, revised but did not greatly improve this translation for Chatto & Windus (1898). Nevertheless, it is Ernest Vizetelly’s version that various publishers have seen fit to reissue in recent years.
Zola, Émile; Brian Nelson (2012-08-09). The Fortune of the Rougons (Oxford World's Classics) (Kindle Locations 385-390). Oxford University Press. Kindle Edition.
Unless anyone is a fluent French speaker/reader I doubt that the translation makes a lot of difference, although I think that Vitzetelly glossed over some of the 'naughty bits' so as not to offfend the readers of his day. Perhaps those with non-Vitzetelly translations could enlighten us when we get to those:)
Thank you, Sarah! The post is invaluable!
Sarah wrote: "My pleaseure! Did I mention I was an obsessive lol?"It is so valuable to have (at least) one of you among us! [g] Thank you, Sarah!
Is there an entry for Le Rêve (The Dream) in English on Goodreads? If so, I haven't found it???
Lily wrote: "Is there an entry for Le Rêve (The Dream) in English on Goodreads? If so, I haven't found it???"https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3...
(and I found this by clicking on the Series in on of the other titles, which has all 20 listed.)
Lily wrote: "Thank you, Elizabeth!"No problem - sometimes finding things via search isn't at all as easy as one thinks it should be.
This integrates Sarah's list with the recommended reading order list (in spoiler to control length of the post): (view spoiler)
I have in draft a list with both Goodreads links and indicating both recommended reading order/publication number, but it needs to "sit" for a day or so. Please do call to attention any errors that have crept in here.
Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "... sometimes finding things via search isn't at all as easy as one thinks it should be."[Grin.] Obviously Goodreads doesn't have Amazon's motivations to not miss a sale!
Okay, under the spoiler here is a crack at the list in Msg 25 with Goodreads links for the editions. Do note the comments at the end. Feedback on what is and isn't helpful or what needs to be changed would be appreciated.Les Rougon-Macquart reading list with Goodreads links:
(view spoiler)
Thanks, Lily. Great Job! I will be reading on my Kindle, from the collection provided by Delphi Classics: Complete Works of Emile Zola. I haven't looked, but I think they are all public domain translations, so mostly Vizetelly. I look forward to seeing some of the differences, if we can know where they exist.
Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Thanks, Lily. Great Job! I will be reading on my Kindle, from the collection provided by Delphi Classics: Complete Works of Emile Zola. I haven't looked, but I think they are all public domain tran..."Thanks, Elizabeth! Thanks for your help. Thanks, too, to Sarah for making it possible and to Dagny for heads up on Elek Books and its translators.
I'll have a combination of sources -- reading as much as possible in Kindle format. I have used Vizetelly for L'Assomoir, but indulged in Oxford Books (Brian Nelson) for La Fortune des Rougons. Look forward to seeing if it seems any less wooden or stiff. Don't know how much of this project I'll be able to do, but it seems like a good one!
Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Thanks, Lily. Great Job! I will be reading on my Kindle, from the collection provided by Delphi Classics: Complete Works of Emile Zola. I haven't looked, but I think they are all public domain tran..."I am also going to use the Vizetelly version. I know that a new translation is available that DOES NOT leave any saucy moments out, but I already purchased the Delphi Classics, so I think we are going to use this one as a main source. Anyone, who is reading the modern translation, get ready to be grilled with questions about those saucy and raunchy places that were allegedly left out in the Victorian translation! :-)
Zulfiya wrote: "but I already purchased the Delphi Classics, so I think we are going to use this one as a main source. "I am pleased to see that not all of the translations in this collection are by Vizetelly. La Curée is translated by Alexander Teixeira de Mattos. It appears there was a Lutetian Society - just learning about this - a group whose mission was "to issue to its members, translations of such representative master-pieces of fiction by Continental authors as are unprocurable in English in an unmutilated rendering."
I just googled not 10 minutes ago and see there is a Lutetian Society printing of 12 of Zola's novels. You can buy them online cheap at only $800. Ha! Not going to do so, but I am hoping that more of these translations are included in the Delphi Classics collection, as they would all be public domain I believe.
Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "I just googled not 10 minutes ago and see there is a Lutetian Society printing of 12 of Zola's novels. You can buy them online cheap at only $800. "I will settle for my 2.99 Delphi Classics:-)
Zulfiya wrote: "Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "I just googled not 10 minutes ago and see there is a Lutetian Society printing of 12 of Zola's novels. You can buy them online cheap at only $800. "I will settle for my 2.99 Delphi Classics:-) "
Me too! ;-)
A Zola Dictionary: the Characters of the Rougon-Macquart Novels of Emile Zola; is online and also available in a digital format. The online edition indicates a 1912 original publication date and lists the translations then in print.By the Lutetian Society are:
La Curee (de Mattos, Delphi)
L'Assomoir
Nana
Pot-Bouille
Germinal (Havelock Ellis, Delphi)
La Terre
There must be other Zola titles that made up the 12 in the $800 set referenced about. (Just read that each translation was published in 2 volumes, so that would do it.)
I'm sorry if I missed it but will the second book we're reading be My Excellency?
Dagny wrote: "Cynthia wrote: "I'm sorry if I missed it but will the second book we're reading be My Excellency?"No, you didn't miss it. I don't believe it's been decided yet. See the first message on the 'Publ..."
Thank you, Dagny
Cynthia,
As Dagny mentioned, we are going to read the first novel and then decide which order we will stick to.
Jack wrote: "I'm a little new to Goodreads, and I'd like some help in understanding timing. So we're reading Chapter 1, with dates Aug 11-17. Are we doing the reading on those dates or starting the discussion o..."Jack, it's up to you. The thread will be open and posted on August 11. On August 18, I will open a new thread. You can start reading ahead and post your thoughts as soon as the thread is open, or it might take you a while to read the chapter and and the comments and post during the week or even next week.
Look at our Dickens project as an example. I open and post thread on the day it is scheduled, but some read ahead and post immediately, others post two or five days laters, and there are participants who have to play catch-up due to different reasons. I usually try to respond to most of the posts during the week, but I also try to respond to later posts as well :-)
Jack wrote: "If I comment on Aug 12 on something that happens at the end of the chapter, am I spoiling things for other readers?"In the Dickens threads, the entire selection is to be discussed once Zulfiya has opened the thread. If I were going to read the thread, I would expect anything that happened in that weeks reading to be discussed from the first day the thread is opened, including any "spoilers."
Thank you, Elizabeth. That's an important point. One should expect that we will freely discuss the plot or anything that happened in that week/weeks. Spoilers of the unfolding events from other sections will not be encouraged:-)
Zulfiya wrote: "Dagny wrote: "Cynthia wrote: "I'm sorry if I missed it but will the second book we're reading be My Excellency?"No, you didn't miss it. I don't believe it's been decided yet. See the first messag..."
Thank you ladies. I've been buying them as I come across them. Frankly, I hope it's La Curee. I now see where an ereader might come in handy.
Cynthia wrote: "...Frankly, I hope it's La Curee...."Cynthia -- may I ask "why"? (Yes, I know. I just did. But responding is optional, as it always is.)
I have read at least one review that suggests La Curee be read before Eugene Rougon. However, having read them both, I think Zola got it right in his recommended reading order. From the description (which I think is a bit of a spoiler), La Terre is a sequel to La Curee. I would not have wanted to put off reading Eugene Rougon. Why, before you have read the first in the series, might be construed by some as a bit spoilerish.
Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "...Why, before you have read the first in the series, might be construed by some as a bit spoilerish. .."Elizabeth -- sorry, but don't think I quite understand what you just said here.
The reason why I would not have wanted to wait to read Eugene Rougon would contain spoilers when you haven't yet read The Fortune of the Rougons. I am finicky about spoilers - I want to know only the merest bit about a novel before reading it. Sometimes I think reading titles in a series or even chapter headings in a novel that isn't a series provides spoilers, and I don't want to have that information. So I'm just being very conservative on this.
Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "The reason why I would not have wanted to wait to read Eugene Rougon would contain spoilers when you haven't yet read The Fortune of the Rougons. I am finicky about spoilers - I want to know only t..."But I think Cynthia @44 is asking about the second book, after The Fortune of the Rougons, which there does seem to be agreement should be first, whether in publication order or suggested reading order?
(Incidentally, I happen to feel almost the opposite as you about "spoilers." But I guess I've read so many books through the years, it is no longer ever about the plot; it is about the story. I rather like that about Julio Cortázar's Hopscotch , which plays with possibilities about what happens to a story when the order or the content is changed. If we think about the stories of our own lives, families and friends, we know all the different ways they are told, with different emphasis depending upon the circumstances. But, then, I am also one who is iconoclastic enough that I will read the end of a story if necessary so that I can slow down and enjoy the telling -- even decide if I think the telling is worth the time it is going to take. [g] And I do try to respect on these boards those who feel as you do, although occasionally it feels like it really constricts a good discussion. After all, who really wants to read books that aren't worth reading twice, even if one will never have the time to do so?)
Lily wrote: "although occasionally it feels like it really constricts a good discussion. After all, who really wants to read books that aren't worth reading twice, even if one will never have the time to do so?) "Presumably, when discussing a book, everyone has read it. In that case there are no spoilers - only enlightenment.
And it isn't just plot which might be spoiled, but characterization - not necessarily in this instance, but in my position as a whole. Is how a person changes over the course of novel plot or characterization?
I've thought about a way I can express it. My understanding and appreciation of the relationship of the brothers Eugene and Aristide was better for having read Eugene Rougon first.
Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "I've thought about a way I can express it. My understanding and appreciation of the relationship of the brothers Eugene and Aristide was better for having read Eugene Rougon first."I'm sorry, Elizabeth, but I am still confused, probably because I do not know the stories. Are you saying that you recommend Son Excellence Eugène Rougon before La Curée because it gives the reader a better appreciation of the relationship of the brothers E&A before tackling what happens in La Curée?
If so, then I am still interested in understanding where Cynthia is coming from @44. Perhaps because some shortened lists seem not to include Son Excellence Eugène Rougon at all?
Yes, and I believe for series/story continuity that is why Zola recommends they books be read in this order. Zola had a plan when he started the series. I am not a writer, but I can see no reason why a writer must write his story as exactly planned, one chapter/book in any exact sequence, but can write those portions that come to him most easily. I haven't read enough to know which of the 14 novels were in the original plan and which are the 6 that were added, but it seems totally reasonable that Eugene Rougon would have been in the original plan, just not written next. And, having read the first novel, Eugene Rougon is the next logical novel.
Having read the first three in the recommended reading order and now on the fourth (L'Argent) I have to agree with Elizabeth. My understanding is that the novels stand on their own, but it is important to read Le Docteur Pascal last. I have found the overall tone from one novel to the next to be quite different, and reading them in the recommended order that Zulfiya listed has enhanced my enjoyment. La Fortune des Rougon (# 1) was intriguing and riveting as was La Curée (# 3); however, Son Excellence Eugène Rougon (# 2) and L'Argent (# 4) are somewhat less engaging. Maintaining that recommended reading order mixes the temper enough to keep my interest stimulated.
My brain worked a bit sideways earlier when I said La Terre was the sequel to La Curee. Ron corrected my thinking, and it is L'Argent (Money) which is the sequel.
Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Presumably, when discussing a book, everyone has read it. In that case there are no spoilers - only enlightenment...."Well, doesn't that depend on how the discussion is set up? Many of the book groups here discuss a book in sections, which introduces the risk of spoilers for and from subsequent sections. Another source of spoiler risk can be comparison with other books and characters.
"And it isn't just plot which might be spoiled, but characterization - not necessarily in this instance, but in my position as a whole. Is how a person changes over the course of novel plot or characterization?"
Like this thought. I've never really pondered "spoilers" from the perspective of characterization. Now, going forward, I can try to spot what might be examples. When could it be a ""spoiler" to know that a character matures? Takes a specific action? Is that what troubles and why? .... What is the impact of time sequence to the telling of a story?
All I can say is that if you open a book discussion, whether it be the entire book or only a section, as is done here at RR, then you should be prepared to see spoilers. So, I won't be opening any book discussion unless I have read the book/section to be covered.I prefer to read more for characterization than for plot. Zola has great characterization. His plots are good, but it is the characterizations that keep me keep coming back.
Plot and characterization do go hand in hand usually. But a book that is just plot doesn't make for very interesting discussions for me.
Ron wrote: "Having read the first three in the recommended reading order and now on the fourth (L'Argent) I have to agree with Elizabeth. My understanding is that the novels stand on their own, but it is impo..."Having read the whole cycle already, in the recommended order, I must agree with Ron.
I found that the recommended order allows for a better understanding of the novels as a whole and makes clear where some character come from and the reasons for their behaviour.
In that order, every novel deals with one family member of the three branches, Rougons, Mourets and Macquarts, in that order.
Although every novel can be read individually, there are some which should be read in a specific order.
La Fortune des Rougon should be read in the first place;
Le Docteur Pascal should be the last one;
La Curée should be followed by L’Argent;
Pot-Bouille should be followed by Au Bonheur des Dames;
L’Assommoir should be followed by Nana, although not necessarily one immediately after the other. You can follow the Vizetelly (L’Assommoir is #13 and Nana is #17) or read them one after the other, there is no significant difference.
Lily wrote: "Cynthia wrote: "...Frankly, I hope it's La Curee...."Cynthia -- may I ask "why"? (Yes, I know. I just did. But responding is optional, as it always is.)"
Oh wow, I only just saw this. I'm really sorry for not responding, Lily. It was only that I have The Kill and not My Excellency. In fact, today I found The Belly of Paris in my library. Amazing. They have hardly any Zolas.
The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910
Books mentioned in this topic
Son Excellence Eugène Rougon (other topics)La Curée (other topics)
Hopscotch (other topics)
A Zola Dictionary; the Characters of the Rougon-Macquart Novels of Emile Zola (other topics)
La Curée (other topics)
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