A Game of Thrones
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Was anyone else sad about Drogo?
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I was also sad that Drogo died as well. I thought that he was a likable character. The fact that he killed Viserys made me like him ever more, because I hated him. But then again, like its been said Dany wouldn't have become the Dragon Queen if he hadn't died.
Michael wrote: "Well, I don't think anything would really change if it weren't part of the entertainment culture... I think, and hope that people reading these books have the same morals we do, and so don't go out..."Haha! Yeah word people reading this conversation, do not do that!
Anyway, this has been a good convo! I think sometimes I read too deeply into lit. The books are engaging and really entertaining! I just feel bad because I have a couple of geek and gamer girl students who are looking for some good scifan to read and I had to shoo them away from these books.
Actually that's a good question for this board. Is 14/15 too young for these books (remembering that I'm NOT the parent).
I love the way Martin writes. It just isn't your run of the mill story. Some characters I disliked, early in the story I have now become to love. I just love the song of fire and Ice:)
Josh wrote: "I love the way Martin writes. It just isn't your run of the mill story. Some characters I disliked, early in the story I have now become to love. I just love the song of fire and Ice:)"Got to agree with that! These are not "your grandma's sci fantasy!" These books are crazy engaging!
BTW- on a personal note I just want to say that the best conversations happen on goodreads.com!
I was a little bit sad, but as we all know George R R Martin is a heartless monster and all life in this series has little to no meaning at all.
I think 14 is to young for the story lines and the adult themes throughout the books.
In my opinion, if you are a person of such low moral fiber that you look at ASOIAF and think it shows that raping and murdering people is going to get you on top, then, that is called a mental disorder. LOL (I'm laughing but I'm dead serious, if you think that, you NEED to get help.) It's fiction first and foremost, and I cannot support censorship. If it isn't too a persons taste, don't read it, don't like it, no one expects otherwise. That's cool by me. But Don't expect it to be edited to fit some mold in your mind. There are lots of fantasy novels that don't involve Sex at all, most are Young Adult novels. I personally find that any adult novel involving adult relationships, requires sex for realism, as most adults are having sex and it is a major part and focus of most adult lives.I am also a woman, and do not find it offensive that my genders sufferage is touted in the story. I would be more offended if it were ignored. Woman have suffered and are suffering for equality every day, I think it's important to remember and have it in the story. I can't imagine it just being dropped from High Fantasy - A genre specifically set in the Medieval time period where said sufferage was most horribly prevelent. That'd be like writing the history of Europe and leaving out the holocaust. I mean, Roots was offensive beyond belief to my cultural heritage, but should that be edited to make me feel better? I think not. My ancestors were screwed up.
I agree, that conversation with Arya is a good illustration of what our ancestors worked through, but it's not a whole picture. I have never felt that rape was gratuitously used at all. (Then again, I read Sword of Truth) Rape has been used as a means of war since the beginning of war. I dont like it, but I also don't want to pretend it isnt happening and still is. I mean, something ridiculous like 1 in 5 African woman is raped in there lifetime. Thats way more ridiculous than anything Martin ever offered.
And I believe this is all done for realism, because actually, yes, in Medieval times people did believe there were Dragons. St. George slaying a dragon is one the miracles that earned him Sainthood. They also believed in Magic. So GRRM's text still maintains much of its legitmacy in my opinion. Many people in Westeros only believed in Dragons because of the Red Keep. Some don't even believe in Others. People are raped, but it isn't even as often as woman in Africa are being raped today. So, I'm sorry, I just dissagree.
Funny how us woman can have different POV's though. THANK YOU WOMAN'S SUFFERAGE. LOL.
(I just want to be clear I'm not being snarky, I found your guys debate very enjoyable and just wanted to join in with a different POV, see y'all tomorrow hopefully)
Amber, EXACTLY!! I love your comments. Could not have said it better myself! If I am reading Medieval fantasy it is about the Middle Ages, a good author gives truth, not fluff.
You are so right (again), Amber. When the hell will folks understand once and for all that exploration is not glorification?!
Amber wrote: "In my opinion, if you are a person of such low moral fiber that you look at ASOIAF and think it shows that raping and murdering people is going to get you on top, then, that is called a mental diso..."Hi, I'm not trying to be mean but I actually got my MA in medieval lit and I'm studying it in history for a second MA and no, the people (meaning a wide spread collection of them, not the folkloric ideas collected in their literature, but the day-to-day realities of life in an agrarian society living through one of the worst biological epidemics this planet has seen) of the middle ages did not believe in dragons. While their scientific understanding of life was not as profound as ours they were not intellectual pygmies. That's like saying teenagers believe in unicorns because of those Lisa Frank portfolios! :) These were extremely intelligent people who had to operate in the a confined, and restricted society (by our standards). But that's beside the point. St. George (whom I took my confirmation name for) has been declaimed, unfortunately as his story is beautiful and profoundly uplifting, and while he is credited with slaying a dragon, he is a saint because he was martyred. Medieval societies looked at folklore much in the same way Ancient Greeces did, highly metaphoric.
I think I'm most confused that you point out that Women are able to have a different opinion... uhm, I am female, are you trying to imply that Josh and I had a debate because we are the same gender?
What I'm arguing is that the literary use of rape as entertainment, NOT allegory, is uncomfortable. No, I don't want Martin to edit his work. I simply don't have to read it. That to educate against the use of sex as a weapon, a woman's body as a detriment, is not something that I, as a female reader, should feel dis-enfranchised over. As a woman I feel that I should be able to open a book and see characters whom I admire, esteem and share a gender with. If these women go through the torment of rape, such as Toni Morrison's protagonist in _The Bluest Eye_ I should expect that the author will explore the hurt, pain and recovery of that character.
Perhaps I expect too much? No. Martin is a gifted and talent writer. We are intelligent and passionate readers. This is a growing culture that needs to explore the idea that violence is one thing and sexual violence is quite another.
I hope you can understand my point. People seem to be misunderstanding this. Josh and I had engaged in a very grand conversation and he understood this brilliantly. Again, I'm not asking him to pretend that rape doesn't exist, which is ridiculous, what I'm asking and hoping is that when I read a book rape is part of the allegorical narrative to engage the reader in a discourse on sexual politics, not as entertainment. I mean, Dance of Dragons was pretty 50 Shade of Dragons in some parts.
Amber wrote: "In my opinion, if you are a person of such low moral fiber that you look at ASOIAF and think it shows that raping and murdering people is going to get you on top, then, that is called a mental diso..."But I'm glad you joined your voice to this discourse! I'll have to check out Sword of Truth, but give me the skinny, is it "shades-ish"?
I'm glad we are both just having a friendly a debate. :) I sometimes think I should add that little part about not trying to be an asshole because sometimes my writing comes across a bit like I am when I'm just trying to play devils advocate or something like that. LOL.Thats cool you got your MA in medieval literature, makes for good conversation and enlightenment certainly. I see your point, I was definitely referencing the larger spectrum of dragon beliefs, St. George, Beowulf, or something like The World Serpent from Norse mythology, but your point is fair about Lisa Frank. LOL. Sometimes I wonder what people will think about us when we are the stuff of antiquity. *smh*
Oh no, I was just pointing out how it was cool that you being a woman and my being a woman, we had pretty different opinions and were completely free to express them with eachother without ridicule, or male approval. I was watching this documentary on Arabia at the time...they're making some leaps and bounds over there for womans rights, but it was only just recently (in the scope of time that is) that woman were aloud access to education without male approval. So reading this and watching that, I was feeling really happy with where Western culture is at least on that front.
I don't disagree that reading a rape scene is uncomfortable, I think it's supposed to be for any decent person. But I expect as much when I read an Epic Fantasy because of the time period its based around. With that in mind, I didn't feel it was over-done by Martin. I think he addresses how this is affecting woman the world over when he gets the chance too in a POV. But of course he won't be able to address every single dothraki slave that has been raped because they have no POV in the story and it doesn't really pertain to the overall character build of anyone of importance to the overall arch. I do feel like he wrote female characters who were strong and I could relate too, so maybe thats just difference that creates our opposite opinions. I was completely inspired by and in love with Asha Greyjoy pretty much the moment her character got a POV. But there are others, Arya is an interesting one who breaks molds, Brienne as well, the Female Mormonts who work with Robb are another set of cool ladies. Even less tomboy characters like Cersei have amazing minds. (Insane, but calculating none the less)
I just don't think Martin gets a lot of chances to explore the hurt of characters who are victims of sexual violence, because most do not have POV's in the story. I'm not sure, but have any of our POV characters been raped, outside of arranged marriages which is a whole other debate and psychological issue? LOL I think the only POV who has been subjected to sexual violence is Theon, and the trauma of that is addressed exclusively and at length. I always thought it was an original choice to explore that through a male POV since a lot of the times it seems authors think sexual violence is a problem exclusive to woman, which it isn't.
I do think Martin's additions of rape in the story, encourage us to have a discourse on sexual politics. I mean, we're here right? LOL. I never found them entertaining at all, but I can't say I found them symbolic of much either - so you do have a point. I can definitely see both sides at least and thanks for the clarifications you offered.
I personally don't know if you'd enjoy Sword of Truth. I found it entertaining in some aspects, but rape is used much more blantantly as a plot drive. The first is enjoyable and the sexual violence is moderately defensivable, but the entire series carries on in a way that it becomes shock value and is a bit insulting by book 12....Pretty much whenever Goodkind needed a filler he just raped someone and the Post-Traumatic stress from characters like Mord Sith is never fully addressed and is in fact kind of made light of. I personally didn't read 50 shades, so I can't say if they are similar, but if you felt Martin's use of rape was for entertainment purposes and held little allegory - ahh shit...I kinda want you to read it now just to read how annoyed it'll make you. LOL!! I haven't read the Bluest Eye, is it fantasy? I guess I'll have to check that one out.
So Annemarie...i take it you are NoT a 50 shades fan...since it perpetuates the " rape and degradation of women" as " fun sex" ?
As for ASOIAF it is unfortunately a sad state of what went on for centurys on this planet, until the uprising of women in the early 19th century, or whenever...
I perish the thought of how far back that movement was pushed by Marat de Sade and his " interesting" writings
which were all the "rage" for a minute.
And let us not forget the Crusades, The Salem Witch Trials, and the international sex trade...oooops...I guess we really haven't come that far now have we?
P.s. I wouldn't use a dead tree to.print one more copy of 50 shades....and I think all those books should be recycled to make houses for the homeless!
P.S.S.Cersi truely is whac-a- doo!
Yes, Cersei is nuts! But I consider her the kind of nuts that teeters right there with genious, the more time I spend reading these novels.I don't approve of alot of her choices morally or ethically, but hell, when you are playing a game like she is, no point in worrying about morals and ethics, it's been made very clear thats a fast way to lose. LOL.
She has plenty of stand out mental disorders, but her social prowess is unmatched in my opinion. Which is why I picked her as an example. She doesn't need to be physically strong because she is so skilled at manipulation, much like Littlefinger, actually. Who I think we both agree is TWISTED! LOL
Phebe wrote: "They kill off main characters mercilessly. This is not the usual trope, in which main characters dodge every bullet, somehow. This series of books/movies breaks a lot of molds."If you compare it to LOTR, yes, but all deaths are pretty predictable. Basically, as an author, you don't want characters to be happy or comfortable. Drogo's death served many purposes, as did Ned's. In effect, the whole Stark clan needed culling so they had something to fight for. I'm just sorry that mindless twit Sansa was still alive after the Tyrion and Jaime were no longer in the hands of the Starks.
Eyehavenofilter wrote: "So Annemarie...i take it you are NoT a 50 shades fan...since it perpetuates the " rape and degradation of women" as " fun sex" ?
As for ASOIAF it is unfortunately a sad state of what went on for ..."
No, I've never read 50 shades and I'm not really interested. Please don't start writing me about what a terrific book that was. I just don't want to read it. And for those who are always looking to say that people shouldn't judge something until they've tried it, I'm not going to do meth either.
In ASIOAF rape and abuse is not depicted as a loving relationship and something good and nice, that is the basic difference. I don't think books should just describe nice, inoffensive PC happenings, the light in which things are presented counts as well.
Khal Drogo was a rapist. He raped Dany (that's how I call her) night after night, despite her protests and making her cry of pain. If it's not marital rape than I don't know what it is.I don't care if you are a Dothraki, if you are a savage, if were raised different than me, in the end, it's all about human empathy, and if you rape and kill like that it means you don't have that (not in a decent amount). Ned Stark was a good example of someone who does bad things but still manages to remain honored.
So I wasn't sad when he died. I was sad for Dany, whose position was endangerend by his death. And by her Stockholm's Symdrom too.
KALEESSI, OBVIOUSLY. At first I didn't like Drogo, but there was a tender side, and he became at ease with Kaleesi.
Amanda wrote: "Khal Drogo was a rapist. He raped Dany (that's how I call her) night after night, despite her protests and making her cry of pain. If it's not marital rape than I don't know what it is."
In the books he does not rape Dany, in the TV-series the wedding night is definitely depicted as rape, but there is also consensual sex between the two.
Tura wrote: "Amanda wrote: "Khal Drogo was a rapist. He raped Dany (that's how I call her) night after night, despite her protests and making her cry of pain. If it's not marital rape than I don't know what it ..."Except in the wedding night, when she is seduced and consents, in the books he does rape Dany, night after night, performing anl sex. She eventually "gets used" to it and they carry on with mutual feelings, but it was rape, and she suffered a lot during those times.
It is interesting that Dany fells empathy towards the women being raped during the dothraki's battles. She stands up to Drogo's men, even though they think less of her (for being a woman) and saves Mirri (more or less).
When he died, I was really sad for Dany, because everything she had was gone. She lost her sun-and-stars, her dothraki army, her son.
That's why she is such a strong character, because she decides to go on, to be as strong as a dragon, even though her life is ruined. She is so courageous at that moment.
Lol, when did Drogo anal rape Dany?
Nermin wrote: "Lol, when did Drogo anal rape Dany?"never, the Dothraki just like doing it doggy style, there is no reference to anal as far as I could see.
Yeah, that's exactly what I thought. I think there was something like Drogo taking Dany from behind or something which I thought meant doggy style position rather than anal rape.
Nermin wrote: "Yeah, that's exactly what I thought. I think there was something like Drogo taking Dany from behind or something which I thought meant doggy style position rather than anal rape."Oh, ok. I just thought that given he "rides her from behind" and she is extremely uncomfortable (to put it lightly) meant anal. But now that I think about it, it really isn't clear.
The point is: he'd come while she was sleeping and have sex with her whenever he wanted. Doesn't say she consented, I think that's rape, even though "each day had been easier than the one before it and she had found pleasure[...]".
It's obvious that she didn't enjoy any of those early intercourses with Drogo but I don't think it necessarily means that Drogo raped her. The book doesn't tell us if Drogo forcefully took her or not. I for one don't think that Drogo would've raped her if Dany somehow protested and said she didn't want to have sex or something. Dany just used to be very submissive and obedient that I think Drogo just took her silence and lack of objection to mean yes probably.
Nermin wrote: "It's obvious that she didn't enjoy any of those early intercourses with Drogo but I don't think it necessarily means that Drogo raped her. The book doesn't tell us if Drogo forcefully took her or n..."Well, we have to look at the dothraki culture. I think that, for them, it is women's duty to give pleasure to their husbands, so it couldn't be rape in Drogo's book. But she was afraid to say no, because she needed Drogo's help to reclaim Westeros. She kinda couldn't deny him sex.
If you define rape as "not consensual sex" than she was raped, although I agree Drogo wasn't brutal. After all, at the wedding night she did say "yes", so Drogo understood she wanted to be with him, at that point.
I'm not saying Drogo didn't like her, or that he saw her as an object ou anything. I'm sure he loved her. It's just that, if you look at the situation from a XXI century's point of view, it was rape.
I know what you mean Isaac, but I prefer not to look at it from 21st century point of view because there would be so many things wrong with those books :)
You're right about that. o/
I remember the words the author used to describe Dany and Khal's sexual interactions.Her thighs were sore, because she wasn't used to ride by horse all day. She protested. (And the word is "protest", not just "objection". A "protest" would mean she not only said no, but she actually opposed in a more veement manner.) And he IGNORED (again, the word is ignored) her protests and went on, making her cry with her head against the pillows. [I also think the anal thing was just doggy style.]
Hey, it doesn't matter if it's 21st century or Middle Age, in the form that was written, it's still rape anyway.
And of course she said "yes" in the wedding ceremony. She was SOLD, remember? By then, she had no control over her future.
And the fun fact is that she shows empathy for other raped women later in the book. Which only adds to the theory that Dany had Stockholm's Syndrom. Anyway, she had to rely on Drgo for everything. Everything she was, that protected her from the Dothrakis, it was him. It would explain really well why she developed feelings for him, as a perversion of her survival instincts. If you read about Stockholm's Syndrom, makes a real good sense.
But of course, George Martin coulnd't write abou tit so obviously since the syndrom hasn't been diagnosed by then, but he could surely use it to compose his characters.
I don't remember reading anything about protesting or Drogo ignoring it. where was it written? And Dany showing empathy to the rape victim doesn't strengthen any theory really since you don't have to be a rape victim to sympathize with them. Also I often hear people say that Dany was sold to Drogo thus she was raped. Really? Almost every women in Westeros were married off to someone they didn't even know/love. Does that mean they were all raped? Does that mean Ned also raped Catelyn since they didn't know each other and only got married because Brandon got killed?
Amanda wrote: "I remember the words the author used to describe Dany and Khal's sexual interactions.Her thighs were sore, because she wasn't used to ride by horse all day. She protested. (And the word is "prote..."
Yeah, she was sold an didn't have much of a choice, but in the wedding night he seduces her. She is expecting to be "used", but he proceeds gently and excites her, and asks repeatedly: "no?"
And she finally puts his hand inside her and whispers "yes". Given the situation I agree she couldn't refuse the wedding and much less consummating it, but in that specific moment she wanted it, although I already said I believe she was raped during the nights that followed, until that night when she takes him out in the open and rides him.
(view spoiler)
I was so sad. Sure she was terrified at first, but they became an actual couple. By the end, they loved each other, and lets face it, he was a boss !
It was heartbreaking! Dany and Drogo were supposed to be together forever!
libellule wrote: "I meant the way the chapter was narrated. It isn't first person, but it's still from the characters point of view, and while we were told that she was afraid her mind was very calm and composed, ob..."I think the opposite! I always look forward to her chapters. She is awesome.
I loved Drogo! He & Dany are my favorite characters. I was sad the way Mirri told Dany that the Khal would not rise again, and Dany made the choice to end his suffering.
Was I sad when Drogo died? In the book, NO. On HBO's GOT series, I was horrified even though I knew it would happen. Come on.... the guy who played him was H.O.T!!!
I think that when I first read the book, he terrified me. Bit his strength really helped her to become what she was meant to be. As the story progessed I grew to understand his tribe and their place in the world of Westeros. Although they were not as" educated " as all the rest I felt they were far more honest and true than most, and definitely as worthy as the Starks to rule.
Drogo was a fair and fearsome leader, and loved Dany, which is what she deserved after a life of being used by a high functioning sociopath like her brother.
His death was a crushing blow, bit necessary, for the development of the story. I will morn him, especially after seeing Jason's portial of Kahl on the DVD... Yum yum!!!
Yes. I never read the books, so i thought for sure that Drago was going to be with Daeneres throughout the whole show.
King Fan wrote: "Yes. I never read the books, so i thought for sure that Drago was going to be with Daeneres throughout the whole show."SPOILERS!: In Season 2, Drogo returns to Daenyrys (unlong with their unborn child) in a dream. This doesn't happen in the book.
S wrote: "King Fan wrote: "Yes. I never read the books, so i thought for sure that Drago was going to be with Daeneres throughout the whole show."
SPOILERS!: In Season 2, Drogo returns to Daenyrys (unlong w..."
I know, I've just seen it the other day. How do you feel when they don't stick to the book?
SPOILERS!: In Season 2, Drogo returns to Daenyrys (unlong w..."
I know, I've just seen it the other day. How do you feel when they don't stick to the book?
I personally didn't particularly like that scene. Wish they had sticked to the book where Daenerys sees Rheagar talking about Aegon and three-headed dragon prophecy.
King Fan wrote: "S wrote: "King Fan wrote: "Yes. I never read the books, so i thought for sure that Drago was going to be with Daeneres throughout the whole show."SPOILERS!: In Season 2, Drogo returns to Daenyrys..."
Well, in this case, I think they had to make this scene less elaborate than the book's version for budgetary reasons.
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I really get what you're saying here... I do, but do I think it has to not be in this story... I don't know that. It's part of Martin's writing style... so take that part out, and a lot of characters would be different.