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* Week 11 -- October 21 – 27. Read from “Mynheer Peeperkorn – Conclusion” p. 729, until “The Great Petulance” (Die grosse Gereiztheit) p. 813
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Kalliope
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Jul 15, 2013 08:24AM
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I just finished the section "Fullness of Harmony" and I must say how much I enjoy it when Mann writes about music. I had to put on a recording of Aida* as I was reading this section. Given the title of this section, part of me was hoping that Richard Wagner would make an appearance on HC's list of favorites...no such luck. Why no Wagner? *I have a recording of Aida that is sung in Geman ( http://www.amazon.com/Rysanek-Gottlob... ) Is it common for opera to be translated to another language? I'm realtively new to the world of opera and this is only the second time I've encountered an opera whose lyrics have been translated; the first was a version of the Magic Flute done by the Met (directd by Julie Taymor) in 2006.
Anyone have any idea of what the second piece mentioned in the section might be? I don't recall a composer or title ever being provided, just the description "a second piece of brief but concentrated charm - much more peaceful than the first...purely instrumental, with no vocals, it was a symphonic prelude of French provenance...." My guess is, based on the dream sequence where HC has goat legs, Debussy's "Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune."
I've finished!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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congratulations.... Lisa...
I have to ask for apologies.. Something came up, a trip, and I had to change my reading priorities, but I am only two weeks behind.
It seeems there are other people also trailing somewhat behind.
I forgot to write here that I finished too, a few days ago. I do feel I climbed the mountain! Thanks all for the company and great insights.
A digression on digressions: when I read MM in grad school I flipped through the discussions of botany and biology, this time I found them full of suppressed eroticism I had totally missed before. All that freudian stuff but he never mentions the name Freud. Back then I also flipped through the Settembrini-Naphta dialogs as boring beyond belief. This time I read them in bed with a cold and -- yes-- fever, and they started to make sense. Sense in that it became clear that both S and N were full of self contradictions as was the pre-WWI intellectual discourse. The pre-WWI peace movement is alluded to, but not the names of the main figures in the hopelessly entangled debate, who sounded a lot like Peeperkorn. The digressions are like an andante movement in a symphony to prepare for a supremely tragic ending...the real stuff is happening off the page in real life as European civilization crashes. Pretty powerful stuff, and I think the digressions are necessary, slowing the reader down so the impact of the novel can register. Hope this digression makes more sense than Naphta and Peeperkorn...
Elena wrote: "A digression on digressions: when I read MM in grad school I flipped through the discussions of botany and biology, this time I found them full of suppressed eroticism I had totally missed before. ..."Elena--it does make sense. And as painful as some of the sections with Settembrini and Naptha were to read, they definitely did show much of the mindset leading to war. Your summary is excellent.
Sue wrote: "...And as painful as some of the sections with Settembrini and Naptha were to read, they definitely did show much of the mindset leading to war...."But which war, I or II? It always seemed to me that Mann was somehow prescient about what was going to happen again, even though he was "posing" as writing about the past. But, I don't know European history, especially of that period, well enough to draw all the appropriate comparisons.
Lily, I think you are right. It is specifically about WWI, but there are all kinds of premonitions. All those Russians on the mountain make me wonder whether he was thinking about the consequences of the Russian Revolution even though it takes place after the end of the book...The contrast between military and civilian in Joachim and Hans make it more universal somehow, Tolstoyan..Considering how long the novel is, it is amazing how much Mann leaves unsaid for the reader to figure out.
I agree with you both. Mann seems to be writing with a longer term perspective though more immediately about WWI. The whole philosophical exchange seems to be about lasting change and there are definite hints about early signs of fascism too.
I have always felt that Mann's powers of observation gave him a clarity that other writers lacked...
It's amusing in a way, after I step back from the book my impatience with aspects of the book seems to fade away and I do see the larger picture better.
Sue, it's just possible that Mann intended that impatience....reading Stefan George's meandering mystic phrases from the eve of WWI makes me impatient, like Settembrini's rants, partially insightful but too abstruse to do any good. George warned about fascism but his writing was so obscurantist that the Nazis interpreted it their way and loved it...even as he tried to distance himself from them. You want to shake these people like Naphta, Settembrini and Peeperkorn and say "don't go there..."
Interesting insight Elena. I definitely do find my feelings toward the whole book mellowing and especially toward those philosophical segments. They were difficult but I think their purpose is more clear to me now. If I ever do read this book again, I will read it with a different eye. I'm sure I'll still skim some of the S & N debates but some of it will be more meaningful.
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I have enjoyed reading about the ecological concerns on the overuse of paper.... So forward looking.
The calculations that the recycled paper of one particular newspaper would in 25 years time accumulate to a given amount of capital that could be used to make the new subscriptions cheaper and to subsidize tuberculosis sanatoriums...
Saving paper, conserving paper, meant saving and conserving cellulose, the forests themselves, and the human labor needed to produce cellulose and paper -- both labor and capital. p. 752.
Kalliope wrote: "Sorry, I am back. I had to interrupt my reading and moderating (sorry for this) for a string of reasons (some good such a wonderful trip and some cumbersome on the work front)...I have enjoyed r..."
This is one of those amazing gems...way ahead of its time, and wonderfully presented as half science half fantasy...
Elena wrote: "...way ahead of its time..."May I ask what takes you to that view? (I ask this in the context that TMM may have declined in inclusion among "standard" or frequently used university classic texts -- that perception is based on limited information, albeit.)
Lily wrote: "Elena wrote: "...way ahead of its time..."May I ask what takes you to that view? (I ask this in the context that TMM may have declined in inclusion among "standard" or frequently used university ..."
Lily, You are right that TMM is not the standard required work at universities as it was in the 1950s and 1960s. For one thing few students have the attention span for something that lengthy. The riff on recycling newsprint is just one of many digressions where I feel Thomas Mann was peering into the future from his perch in Germany after the First World War. He creates a series of riffs on the way East and West collide in Germany, sometimes from a philosophical point of view (Settembrini vs Naphta), sometimes its political, military, and often mixed with repressed desire in a strange way (Joachim learning Russian inspired both by Marusja and by his military education). Ostensibly Mann is foreshadowing the approaching Russian-German conflict in World War I, but I think the references to a Katastrophe may also be coming from his own observations after the Great War. He could not predict World War II with any precision, much less the Cold War with the lethal border running through Germany. But he accurately perceived the East-West fault line in the "land of Luther" as the site of collisions.
After five months, I finally finished TMM, December 29, 2013, feeling a little dazed. Also watched the 5 hour video with Rod Steiger as Peeperkorn....it will probably take another 5 months to pull together my impressions....time is the big theme anyway.
Elena wrote: "Lily wrote: "Elena wrote: "...way ahead of its time..."May I ask what takes you to that view? (I ask this in the context that TMM may have declined in inclusion among "standard" or frequently use..."
Elena -- thank you for your thoughtful and detailed response.
Also watched the 5 hour video with Rod Steiger as Peeperkorn....it will probably take another 5 months to pull together my impressions...
I'm still absorbing -- and I sort of went through it with two groups, although I didn't reread the second time since the discussions were back to back. I think to truly make use of reading TMM, I'd have to go back and borrow again background resources from my alma mater -- not all of which I found the time to adequately utilize, especially re the Settembrini vs Naphta vs Peeperkorn philosophical digressions.
It is probably in this discussions, but would you remind us on the source/name of the 5 hour video with Rod Steiger as Peeperkorn? Sounds fascinating.
I found this a sad commentary, but probably realistic for a generation raised on visual and dramatic sensory inputs -- even those attending our most demanding universities. (Do you teach?)
For one thing few students have the attention span for something that lengthy.
([g] Been reading movie reviews today -- encountered this guideline: "As far as how long a film should be, I tend to agree with the legendary Alfred Hitchcock, who once famously said, 'The length of a film should be directly related to the endurance of the human bladder.'" http://www.deadline.com/2013/12/wolf-... )
Hi, Lily, from Netflix I got two DVDs with Der Zauberberg, German with English subtitles. Mostly German actors, but Chauchat is played by a French actress and Peekerkorn is done amazingly well by Steiger. The film follows the story closely, but it doesn't capture the irony and humor of the text. -- I agree the philosophical digressions are hard to take. And the lethal duel at the end over abstract ideas seems far fetched until you realize in the 1920s various socialist and communist factions were literally fighting each other over ludicrous philosophical distinctions drawn from Marxian nonsense. And today the extreme Islamists will kill people over an insulting cartoon. So I think Mann was onto something in human nature that we try to avoid thinking about.- ElenaRe the DVD
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Der Zauberberg (1982)
153 min - Drama - 25 August 1982 (Italy)
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Hans Castorp, fresh from university and about to become a civil engineer, comes to the Sanatorium Berghof in the Swiss Alps to visit his cousin Joachim, an army officer, who is recovering ... See full summary »
Director:
Hans W. Geissendörfer
Writers:
Hans W. Geissendörfer, Thomas Mann (novel)
Stars:
Werner Eichhorn, Rod Steiger, Marie-France Pisier | See full cast and crew »
Thanks again, Elena.Won't be soon (5 hours, huh), but I'll certainly keep this one in mind! .
