* Week 5 -- September 9 - 15. Read from “Research” p. 318, until Chapter 5 “Walpurgis Night” (Walpurgisnacht) p. 382.

[Kalliope]

Lily wrote: "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cha...

This does give a sense of how the danse macbre was presented in Paris; the following may be reproductions of the woodcut..."

Thank you Lily.

It seems that one of the illustrations above (the first in #38) which is in the St Nicholas church in Tallinn, Estonia,is a fragment of the original Danse from the Lübeck church.

What I find very interesting is the large banner underneath the figures with a copious text.

This is what Thomas Mann would have seen in his childhood in the Marienkirche in his home town.

Here is a larger detail.

[Kalliope]

On another topic. I was struck by the description of the Russian language as "boneless". I think it has been qualified this way twice already.

To me it does not sound boneless. Interesting how these perceptions differ.

According to Hermann Kurzke, Thomas Mann was a Russophile (thanks mostly to his love of Russian literature)

[Lily]

Kalliope wrote: "On another topic. I was struck by the description of the Russian language as "boneless". I think it has been qualified this way twice already.

To me it does not sound boneless. Interesting how ..."

Hmm...wonder why translated as "boneless" rather than "spineless." What does Mann imply or mean by "boneless"? Flowing, adaptable, amoebic, versus lacking form, structure, spineless?

[Lily]

The uncanny acceptance of death in these pages reminds me too much of gas chambers. It feels almost as if the curse of hindsight in encountering these pages sometimes makes it difficult to give Mann a fair reading.

[Kalliope]

Lily wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "On another topic. I was struck by the description of the Russian language as "boneless". I think it has been qualified this way twice already.

To me it does not sound boneless. ..."

The original is "knochenlosen Sprache". Thanks to Kris's pdf copy I found it is mentioned three times. In one of them it says that the language reminded Castorp of a thorax without ribs.. so, yes, boneless.

[Sue]

Thanks for the further descriptions of the Dance with Death, everyone.

Dolors, I think you are right. Hans does think it the proper, correct thing to do ,in offering his (and his cousin's) level of comfort. Obviously it's appreciated by those who receive it.

[Kalliope]

Lily wrote: "The uncanny acceptance of death in these pages reminds me too much of gas chambers. It feels almost as if the curse of hindsight in encountering these pages sometimes makes it difficult to give Ma..."

Yes, that is why I think it is better to keep in mind the Medieval depictions.. helps to keep more distance...

[Kalliope]

Sue wrote: "Thanks for the further descriptions of the Dance with Death, everyone.

Dolors, I think you are right. Hans does think it the proper, correct thing to do ,in offering his (and his cousin's) level ..."

I also thought that it reminded him of his childhood and being at the deathbed of his father and grandfather. There is a strange comfort for him.

[Sue]

Sometimes I think of Hans as an Everyman but in this case his activity seems too individual, especially since it does not arise from any charitable impulse. but then I'm reminded of those who stop at accidents, not to help but to see what's happened.

[Kris]

·Karen· wrote: "Thanks for that Kris. I was struck by the living arranged according to rank and the dead leading the living - it seems there's a reversal here in the novel, with the living - or at least the less i..."

Karen, I love your observation here. Re. the rank of the living in the sanatorium -- I think Castorp and the narrator observe on occasion that there is a rank, by the seriousness of the illness suffered by the residents. I think that version of rank seems to fit in really well with the Danse Macabre reversal you describe in TMM.

And oh, poor Karen (in the novel). :(

[Kris]

Dolors wrote: "Thanks for sharing this information Kris. I join Sue in liking the idea of Hans being attracted to the "lure of death".
As for Hans' motivations, after thinking a bit about the issue, I don't think..."

I get the sense that Hans is using the bourgeois sensibility of responsibility to mask his true motivation for visiting the moribund -- his curiosity and the pull he feels to be close to them. I like your attention, Dolors, to the process of change Hans is undergoing.

[Kris]

Lily wrote: "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cha...

This does give a sense of how the danse macbre was presented in Paris; the following may be reproductions of the woodcut..."

Thanks so much for posting these links, Lily!

[Kris]

Kall and Lily -- I was also struck by the repeated description of Russian as a boneless language. Lily, I think you are correct in your suggestion that Mann is emphasizing formlessness, which in turn relates to dissolution, decomposition, etc. -- all traits that Settembrini and others repeatedly refer to as Eastern.

[Kris]

Lily wrote: "The uncanny acceptance of death in these pages reminds me too much of gas chambers. It feels almost as if the curse of hindsight in encountering these pages sometimes makes it difficult to give Ma..."

Hindsight of WWI combined with foresight/fear of another impending cataclysm were critical for Mann as he wrote TMM, so perhaps that difficult association is one that he would appreciate your having, Lily.

[Sue]

Kris wrote: "Kall and Lily -- I was also struck by the repeated description of Russian as a boneless language. Lily, I think you are correct in your suggestion that Mann is emphasizing formlessness, which in t..."

thanks all for this clarification re Russian as the boneless language.

[Kris]

Sue wrote: "Sometimes I think of Hans as an Everyman but in this case his activity seems too individual, especially since it does not arise from any charitable impulse. but then I'm reminded of those who stop ..."

I like this observation, Sue. In spite of the West/East comparison that Mann makes, a general tendency to be drawn towards death is something Mann is exploring in TMM. I think for example about critical response towards Freud, the idea of a death drive, etc. when Mann was writing TMM.

[Lily]

Sue wrote: "Kris wrote: "Kall and Lily -- I was also struck by the repeated description of Russian as a boneless language. Lily, I think you are correct in your suggestion that Mann is emphasizing formlessness, which in t..."

thanks all for this clarification re Russian as the boneless language...."

I don't know the colloquial meaning of "knochenlosen Sprache"; I still can't help wondering if an appropriate English translation might not have been "a spineless language" -- referring to the backbone rather than the rib cage in English versus German, and carrying the meaning of "lacking moral resolution, firmness, or strength of character." I don't know that such would be a fair characterization of the Russian language, but given other statements in MM, it would not surprise me to have such an accusation made.

[Sue]

We are not too far removed from the Spiritualism movement at the time of this novel are we? That was late 19th and early 20th century if I'm remembering correctly. (I haven't looked it up) And, of course, WWI and the world-wide flu epidemic certainly focused attention of much of the world (definitely Europe and the US) on the closeness of death.

[Kris]

Precisely, Sue -- good historical context there.

[Lily]

Sue wrote: "We are not too far removed from the Spiritualism movement at the time of this novel are we? ..."

I'll risk commenting: good foreshadowing, Sue.

[Sue]

I'm feeling a need for more knowledge Kris and may request some titles from you lare on this aspect of early 20th century history. the whole spiritualism movement does fascinate me...but I don't want to digress too far.

[Kris]

Sue wrote: "I'm feeling a need for more knowledge Kris and may request some titles from you lare on this aspect of early 20th century history. the whole spiritualism movement does fascinate me...but I don't wa..."

Happy to oblige, Sue. I assigned an article on spiritualism in England in my history of sexuality class this summer, and students were pretty amazed at how interesting and relevant the movement was to an understanding of cultural concerns of the time. It's really easy to dismiss as simply superstition, but it's a fascinating topic for those of us interested in understanding cultural fears and preoccupations, regardless of our own beliefs about ghosts, spirits, life after death, etc.

The Place of Enchantment: British Occultism and the Culture of the Modern and The Darkened Room: Women, Power, and Spiritualism in Late Victorian England by Alex Owen are good places to start. You may also want to consider Talking to the Dead: Kate and Maggie Fox and the Rise of Spiritualism; or Body and Soul: A Sympathetic History of American Spiritualism.

[Sue]

Lily wrote: "Sue wrote: "We are not too far removed from the Spiritualism movement at the time of this novel are we? ..."

I'll risk commenting: good foreshadowing, Sue."

Ahhh... I guess I got ahead of myself. I'm even more intrigued!!

[Lily]

Kris wrote: "The Place of Enchantment: British Occultism and the Culture of the Modern and The Darkened Room: Women, Power, and Spiritualism in Late Victorian England by Alex Owen are good places to start...."

The Darkened Room: Women, Power, and Spiritualism in Late Victorian England -- description sounds interesting, but not exactly inexpensive nor necessarily readily available in a library system! (The hardcover in new condition is priced on Amazon as an expensive collectible; used paperbacks start at basically the same price as a new copy.)

[Sue]

Well my library system will give me access to the book on the Fox sisters. The others are only available to some local colleges, sadly.

Thanks for the quick follow up Kris.

[Kalliope]

Although I do not associate Saint-Saëns with Mann, here is the Danse Macabre of the former.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyknBT...

[Elizabeth]

Political note: this is not the first work referring to the language of Tsarist Russia as "spineless...flowing" etc. Once the USSR became a world power, Russian was described (this is from Vonnegut) as sounding like "steel ball bearings dropped into wet gravel." A language of strength. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, we have seen it go back the other way...

[Lisa]

Kalliope wrote: "I had to laugh though at the beginning of "Research" with the "badly printed booklet" which was a translation from the French, The Art of Seduction and for which everyone is fighting...

"Fifty Sha..."
Yeah, I posted that excerpt as a Sensational Snippet on my blog, and I had 50 Shades in mind as well!

[Lisa]

Sue wrote: "Dolors wrote: "I might be on the wrong but I had the impression that Hans was in some way challenging Mr.Settembrini's advice. In the passage where he calls Hans "Life's delicate child" he openly d..."

I thought it was because he was ready to confront death (with Joachim, not quite so keen, as his loyal companion). This contrasts with the beginning where - remember? - that girl screaming hysterically really terrified him. Also, the culture of the place is to deny death, even though it happens all the time. So when Hans goes visiting he is facing up to what really happens there.
As well as that, I wondered whether he and J are like Angels of Death, harbingers of coming doom. I mean, once the word gets round that H & C are visiting the dying, you'd know (if you didn't already) that you didn't have long to live.