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* Week 2 -- August 19 - 25. Read from “One Word too Many” p. 81, until Chapter 4 “Table Talk” (Tischgespräche) p. 158.
I wondered too what he was holding, my imagination wants them to be Russian cigarettes...
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That could very well be. Tried to enlarge the photo but then it became too blurry. They do look like boxes with writing on the side.
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I have become curious about them too. Knew nothing on them. The German wiki has an article of fair length. They lived in another lovely house, of a similar style to that of the Manns.
Many thanks for Hallgarten house photo.. lovely
Kalliope wrote: "Death is always hovering around the Manns... in fiction and in real life... "Yes, so many suicides in that family.
Fionnuala wrote: "And the idea of slippery? Is that in the original? And the scanty vowel in the middle, is that just referring to the English word, 'love'?"Happy to give sustenance to your obsession:
"Im Gegenteil, diese schlüpfrigen anderthalb Silben mit dem Zungen-, dem Lippenlaut und dem dünnen Vokal in der Mitte wurden ihm auf die Dauer recht wiederwärtig..."
Schlüpfrig = slippery. But also has the sense of a bit risqué, salacious, saucy.
mit dem dünnen Vokal in der Mitte. dünn is thin, skinny, slight. I think here it refers to the 'EE' sound which you make with a thin mouth, not an open round sound like 'AH'.
Karen, thanks! TM pays such a great deal of attention to the sounds of speech, also accents -- Hans pronounces the s-t in the north German way, not scht, while Joachim has gone over to high German....Settembrini pronounces "s" in a particular sharp way...TM did this in BB as well, locating his characters by their speech and pronunciation...
·Karen· wrote: "...."Im Gegenteil, diese schlüpfrigen anderthalb Silben mit dem Zungen-, dem Lippenlaut und dem dünnen Vokal in der Mitte wurden ihm auf die Dauer recht wiederwärtig..."Schlüpfrig = slippery. But also has the sense of a bit risqué, salacious, saucy.
mit dem dünnen Vokal in der Mitte. dünn is thin, skinny, slight. I think here it refers to the 'EE' sound which you make with a thin mouth, not an open round sound like 'AH'."
Thanks, Karen. It's interesting to see how the English corresponds or not to the German. But now that I know there are salacious and saucy shades of meaning hidden within the word 'Schlüpfrig', I'm seeing saucy innuendo in the entire sentence: lingual and labial and even scanty take on new meaning especially since Hans begins to stare at Mme Chauchat's scantily clothed arms soon after!
Translation is a Schlüpfrig (slippery frigging) business..
Thank you, thank you all! for this delicious and delightful conversation.
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Fionnuala wrote: "·Translation is a Schlüpfrig (slippery frigging) business....."[g] Well said! Much like what our minds do to what we read, even in our own language. As has been said, none of us read the same book.
Kalliope wrote: "I have to say that I breathe better when Settembrini shows up."Me too. I enjoy him a lot. But I do feel there is something a little contrived in the three way conversations Mann keeps inventing between Hans, Joachim and Settembrini, conversations where Hans has to innocently draw S out so that S gets to give the reader the 'alternative' view of life at the sanatorium.
It's as if we are seeing TM's fine stitching beneath the fabric of the book.
Lily wrote: ".[g] Well said! Much like what our minds do to what we read, even in our own language. As has been said, none of us read the same book. .."Yes, indeed, just look at the diversity in the reviews here of Buddenbrooks, for example. Amazing.
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I am beginning to conceive of Mann as a novelist of ideas. His characters are mouthpieces for his trying to sort out what bothers him.
Ideas accompanied by wonderful and attentive descriptions of the material world.
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Me too. I enjoy him a lot. But I do feel there is something a little contrived in the three way conversations Mann ..."
From a handheld I cannot do the reply thing.
I like your image of the fine stitching.
Kalliope wrote: "Ideas accompanied by wonderful and attentive descriptions of the material world."Yes, I'm seduced by the descriptions and that was what worked for me best in Buddenbrooks too, not plot, not structure, not even the history, but the portraits of people. Remember Herr Kesselmayer, how he moved his arms when he walked as if he was rowing? I love that sort of graphic detail.
The director of the sanatorium is described rowing his arms when he walks too, now that I come to think of it....
I loved the description of Joachim wrapping himself up in the blankets for his evening rest cure. He sounded like a papoose when finished. I wonder if that is part of the purpose of the routines---rest and peace and security and safety in a secure environment, not all medicinal.
Sue wrote: "... - rest and peace and security and safety in a secure environment, not all medicinal"I love that thought. It's very much the opposite of Joachim's (professional) longing for adventure.
Yes, Joachim is certainly missing out on what he has hoped for.
Adding to the conversation about TM's use characters' names to allude to mythology, there also seem to be some colourful names (though mostly not relating to mythology) featuring in this week's chapters: Blumenkohl, Wurmbrand, Schildknecht, Paravant, Chauchat, Hippe.
Ulrike wrote: "...there also seem to be some colourful names:... Blumenkohl, Wurmbrand, Schildknecht, Paravant, Chauchat, Hippe. ..."Anyone willing to provide us translations? (Is "Hot Cat" accurate for Chauchat? -- I saw it provided in another discussion.)
Ulrike, you are a tease! Pointing out these colourful names, but not giving any help with what they mean!C'mon, you can help me here:
Blumenkohl is cauliflower (who's that? missed that one)
The one that struck me is Frau Iltis - iltis is a polecat.
Schildknecht means the page, the squire of a knight, responsible for his armour and horse. Schild is shield, Knecht was the 'boy' the servant in a feudal sense.
Hippe is an interesting one. I connect it with wafers, rolled up, but that's maybe because I'm married to a baker. I found out that it is also a garden tool!
And, just like the scythe or sickle, is an allegory for DEATH - there we have it again. Sex connoted with death.
Your turn Ulrike.
Oh and Albin, to me, sounds very much like albern, which means silly, foolish - that would fit, foolish young man.And Stöhr sounds exactly the same as Stör the 'h' makes no difference in the pronunciation. Two meanings: the noun is a sturgeon (with 28 sauces), the verb means to disturb, to bother (someone), interfere.
·Karen· wrote: "Oh and Albin, to me, sounds very much like albern, which means silly, foolish - that would fit, foolish young man.And Stöhr sounds exactly the same as Stör the 'h' makes no difference in the pron..."
Thanks Karen.
I missed Iltis and Albin - and to be honest I had not the slightest idea what Hippe could be (other than a different version of a mythological figure that eventually turned into Pegaseus - and I only found that through Google).
Stoehr (sorry haven't got the "oe" key on my keyboard) is quite a funny one - especially, as you point out - after the weird, out of the blue references to fish sauces and the way she gets a lot of details mixed up.
Dr. Blumenkohl appears in One Word Too Many and is described as "The worst case at their table was Dr. Blumenkohl, Leo Blumenkohl, from Odessa, the young man with the moustaches and the absorbed and care-worn air. He had been here years."
Leaving Blumenkohl/cauliflower in a place for years - another metaphor for decay?
Wurmbrand, I guess, is just an unusual name but it does also allude to decay. Wurm = worm, brand = burn, blaze or fire.
Chauchat - I cannot comment on the French translation. however Wikipedia insists that this is also the name of the standard French machine rifle used in WW1.
Paravant - which can mean "public" is the name of a district attorney or public prosecutor (depending on which side of the Atlantic we're at). Very apt name, I thought.
Just a few ramblings...
Ulrike wrote: "·Chauchat - I cannot comment on the French translation. however Wikipedia insists that this is also the name of the standard French machine rifle used in WW1...."Hmm -- Internet translations:
English [domestic] cat = French chad
English hot = French adj (=very warm) chaud (e)
The double entendre with the machine rife -- one wonders if Mann knew! Given this was written after WW1, I would suspect the odds were that he did. I have sometimes commented that Mann must have smiled to himself as he created some of his lines. This, along with "Stöhr", must have qualified.
Karen and Ulrike -- thank you for the translations!
·Karen· wrote: "I'm sure someone mentioned Settembrini's joke about living life horizontally last week, although I can't find the post now - does the joke come over in English?"No, I didn't make that connection so thanks for pointing it out. I had taken Settembrini's words literally in a cynical way comparing 'living' horizontally to being lifeless not living at all. -- invalids then being compared to cadavers whereas Hans views the sick as practically saint-like. Though different in perspective they both, in a way, put into question what constitutes humanity.
What I find funny about their opposing views is Settembrini seeing horizontal life as no life while Hans is quite content doing nothing and thinking …'Ah…this is the life'.
Mikki wrote: "·What I find funny about their opposing views is Settembrini seeing horizontal life as no life while Hans is quite content doing nothing and thinking …'Ah…this is the life'...."Following is by Peter Gorden Mann:
Horizontal
Or: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-tZOZ3mo6qps...
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As for "Chauchat", I do not see why it should be translated. It is that way in the original German, and it is not even ChaudChat. If it were translated to something explicit, which is not in the original, Mann's subtlety would be lost.
Sue wrote: "Thanks Lily...love the visual."Sue -- glad you do. This was drawn to my attention by another goodreads reader in an earlier discussion. Today, in looking for it (easier to go to google than that discussion), I found an entire group of woodcuts done by P.G. Mann. I've put a link in the resources section here on TMM Images and Photographs, but with a spoiler indication.
Kalliope wrote: "Thank you to Karen and Ulrike. Wonderful comments on the names.As for "Chauchat", I do not see why it should be translated. It is that way in the original German, and it is not even ChaudChat. ..."
I do love that name, the way she moves, turns her head, etc. She appears to be all that her name implies. And the male responses....
Lily wrote: "Sue wrote: "Thanks Lily...love the visual."Sue -- glad you do. This was drawn to my attention by another goodreads reader in an earlier discussion. Today, in looking for it (easier to go to goo..."
Great. I'll check them out. The picture conforms with my mental image of Joachim wrapped up like a papoose.
Kalliope wrote: "As for "Chauchat", I do not see why it should be translated. It is that way in the original German, and it is not even ChaudChat. If it were translated to something explicit, which is not in the original, Mann's subtlety would be lost. . ..."The same is true for translating the other names -- one certainly wouldn't want to do that in the text per se! (Besides, cats don't usually slam doors. [g])
Lily, I love that image, thank you. That is exactly how I pictured them taking rest cure!
Also, going back to the Horizontals...horizon being the line between earth and sky/heavens? Life and death?
The way HC talks about the lounge chairs makes me want one.
I got a late start on this week's reading and just finished it. I've enjoyed reading the discussion, but I do have a question. In the section, "But of Course, a Female" Frau Stohr displayed her poor upbringing by commenting on Dr. Blumenkohl when he left the room, "He's on his last legs. He's off to have a talk with his Blue Henry again." This was apparently a grotesque term that made Hans shudder. Does anyone know what that refers to? Is it a sexual innuendo? I've never heard that before.
It's one of those weird things that should really have a footnote or something, because I can't imagine most people reading this book know what it is.Blue Henry is a cobalt-blue glass sputum bottle. (Ha!) It was invented—I think—specifically for tuberculosis patients, and it's supposed to help stop the spread of the disease, since the tuberculosis bacterium can become airborne when people cough. I think all it is is a bottle that "contains" your, ahem, cough sputum.
It looks like this:
Ah, thanks, Jason, the visual helps a lot. What surprises me is that the patients--both healthy and not-- were allowed to freely socialize with one another though maybe it depended on whether their individual cases were latent or active.
Karen and Ulrike, or anyone else who is reading the original, which I would dearly love to be able to do, can you tell us what the phrase for 'rest cure' is?I'm thinking of adopting the practice of regular rest cures throughout the day, but with a book, something Hans or Joachim never seem to have time for, and I want to be able to refer to my 'rest cure' with the proper terminology. My terrace/balcony is quite cool at the moment and I have the perfect blanket technique so all I need is the label.
Thank you for the label, Karen. I'm off to take my evening liegekur now.
·Karen· wrote: "LIEGEKUR.As in a recent update of mine:http://www.goodreads.com/user_status/..."
I have always loved the whole theory of the Mexican siesta in the middle of the day, but I can also get into Liegekur. Without tuberculosis, of course.
Jason wrote: "It's one of those weird things that should really have a footnote or something, because I can't imagine most people reading this book know what it is.Blue Henry is a cobalt-blue glass sputum bott..."
Thank you, Jason.
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I have always loved the whole theory of the Mexican siesta in the middle of the day, bu..."
The "siesta" is actually Spanish in origin. And Thomas Mann himself followed the custom. So did Churchill.
Liegekur is a great concept--without the underlying idea of illness. I'll take mine in my recliner, indoors without the ragweed!And thank you for the info re Blue Henry. I was wondering too. I do love cobalt glass and always look for it at yard sales.
It looks like we Americans are pretty backward in regard to regenerating ourselves in the middle of the day. Don't some other European nations take 2-3 hours for the mid-day meal?
When I lived in a small town in Germany back in the 1960s the shopkeepers all closed shop and took a Mittags-schlaefchen, I think they called it, until 2pm. These were middle aged women and men both. I don't exactly know how widespread that habit was. I thought they were all suffering from post-war trauma and needed extra rest, but now I think it might have just been a hold-over from German farm villages where the workers started so very early they needed an afternoon nap..
When I was a child we lived in New Caledonia, then a French overseas department in the South Pacific (now a French "special collectivity"). There was a big gap in the school day from late morning until around 2.00 pm or so. We all went home and had an early lunch and "la sieste" before going back to school in the afternoon. A very civilised habit and one I still practise when I can on weekends and summer holidays.I was recently in rural France and in the smaller towns and villages, most of the shops (although not the bars and restaurants) closed from about 1.00 until 2.30 or 3.00. Great for the locals and a good way of ensuring a long lunch or a rest in the middle of the day.
The Thomas Mann Group
Books mentioned in this topic
Die Manns: Ein Jahrhundertroman (other topics)Die Manns: Ein Jahrhundertroman (other topics)
Reflections of a Nonpolitical Man (other topics)
Die kleine Stadt (other topics)
Betrachtungen eines Unpolitischen. Kommentar (other topics)
More...
.. a little rotating drum in which you placed a strip of cinematographic film and then loo..." Thanks so much for finding the info on Hallgarten, another brilliant family but obviously troubled somehow....I think the mother Constance was an early feminist, and a brother was a well-known historian...