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The Forsyte Saga - A Man of Property - Part III
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In this book TFS departed from that pleasant experience of indulging in a box of chocolates.
I have to say throuought much of the book I have struggled with figuring out just what my feelings were regarding both Irene and Soames. While on the one hand I felt I could relate to both thier sisutations on the other hand I found myself unable to feel true sympathy for either one of them. Irene suffered the fate that many young women of her time were forced to fall into by soceity, having to agree to a marriage of convenience with a man she did not love. On the one hand I could feel for this position she was in, and feeling so trapped within this unwanted marriage, but on the other hand I still disprove of what she is doing, most particularly because of all men she took for her lover the fiancee of the woman who thought they were friends. That seems rather low.
In addition I cannot help but to think that she did enter into this situation with her eyes wide-open. She was pressured into the marriage, but she is still the one who agreed to marry a man she knew she did not love. In a way I feel she it is a bit like you made this bed now you have to lie in it. Considering her beauty, and the fact that practically every man in the book who has laid eyes upon her has become besotted by her, it does not seem like it would have been overly difficult for her to at least try and find a more suitable match for her to marry if she truly had no care for Soames.
In regards to Soames while it is clear he does truly love Irene in his way, and longs for intimacy with her, it can be seen how it is his own actions which have further acted to push Irene away. On account of his old world views, and his perception of Irene as his property and his treating her as such, I have not been able to altogether sympathize with him either.
But when it comes to the point where Soames can no longer ignore the fact that it is over, and is forced to acknowledge the truth, and in the scene when he is sitting in the park watching the other couples, half-expecting to see Bosinney and Irene among them, it was difficult not to feel bad for him. Also I do feel that he is being unfairly treated by his own family who look upon him as being ridiculous for "allowing" his wife to bring this scandal onto the family and lying all the blame for Irene and her actions at his feet.
My humble opinion on Soames and Irene as follows...Mistake upon mistake.
Silver, I agree with you about Irene disregard for her friendship with June. On that alone, she needed to keep her distance from Bosinney.
I think Irene, perhaps, would have been better suited to remaining single and not buckling to pressure. Do you think her Aunt would have put her on the street or did her Aunt think she would be best off with Soames. Irene's persona does not seem suited to be a "Lady of the Manor" and seems best suited as, and I say this, sadly, as a shadow. Time, place and perspective of its times perhaps gives me that sense.
Linda wrote: "My humble opinion on Soames and Irene as follows...Mistake upon mistake.
Silver, I agree with you about Irene disregard for her friendship with June. On that alone, she needed to keep her dista..."
According to my book in Chapter 1 of Part II - The Progress of the House, she was living with her stepmother, who was widowed and wished to remarry but Irene had stood in the way of that. Both because of his money and his interest in Irene Soames appeared as an opportune way to get Irene off her hands. After so many refusals it is left a mystery as to just how or why Irene ultimately gave into the pressure and agreed to the marriage.
Is is possible that her stepmother had made threats to kick her out if she did not accept. I think she did just see this as the best of all possible options both for herself and for Irene (though I do not know how concerned she really was for Irene's well being) but considering the society of the time, what more could a penniless girl hope for but a wealthy husband?
There seems to be ample blame to go around. Bosinney certainly deserves some for deserting his fiance and falling in love with her best friend. The night he dies, it seems that he may be courting suicide by walking around the way he does in the poor visibility.
The sermon at my church this morning was on the difference between "I do love" -- which the pastor characterized as the feelings that arise and which simply are -- and the act of volition of the marriage vows (at least as he administers them within our tradition) of "I will love." One he characterized as belonging to the sensory perceptions we all experience continuously, the other to the commitments of an act of human will. Since I had been online earlier, I thought of our novel and its characters as I listened.
I find it interesting the way in which Galsworthy seems to give his sympathy to Irene and Bosinney. He displays an amount of admiration for these young lovers these "free spirits" who struggle under the restraints of the "men of property" and perhaps the status quo of society itself and its restrictions. He seems to treat Young Jolyon with a sympathetic eye as well who had once been in a position very similar to that of Bosinney and forsook his own wealth and "property" in the name of love. I was rather struck with the description given of Irene though the eyes of Young Jolyon when he happens upon her sitting on the bench. It is noted all the men who pass her by and stop to give her admiring looks, but she herself is portrayed as being passive, unwanting of this attention of someone innocence, and a "victim" of these desires of other men.
I also found the reactions to Soames and his lawsuit against Bosinney and Bosinney going over budget on the house curious. My initial instinctual reaction to Bosinney was that he was just trying to milk Soames for as much as he could by over spending, and trying to get Soames to agree to give him a free hand. Yet in the eyes of others and it seems also in the eyes of Galsworthy Soames is made to appear ridiculous for making such a fuss over such a trifle sum.
One of the things I like about this novel is that there is blame to go around. Galsworthy doesn't make either Irene or Soames perfect. In relation to Irene, I think she's like a lot women. For whatever reason, she married completely the wrong person, presumably thinking she could make a go of it and then realising that she can't. In that society, Irene is unable to apply for a divorce unless Soames is not only unfaithful, but also mistreats her in some other way. Being trapped in a marriage to someone she doesn't love would only increase the negative feelings she has for him. And then she falls in love with someone she should have stayed away from. I feel for her situation, but I also feel for Soames' cluelessness about Irene feels and his frustration at loving someone who doesn't love him back.
I agree, Kim and Silver, Galsworthy created very human characters - all are flawed and no one is a true villain or good guy. Since neither Bosinney or Irene could hope to better their situation by being together, I think they must have truly been in love. At least Bosinney. I go back and forth a bit with Irene - she seems very practical about matters. I thought Soames suing Bosinney over a small amount of money, yet not confronting the man about the relationship with his wife, was very telling of "the man of property." Part of it was not wanting to confirm the rumors, but also, I think, that he didn't consider it "a good risk."
I started watching "That Forsyte Woman" today, but haven't finished it. It features Greer Garson as Irene and is told through her flashbacks, which I thought was an interesting change to the book, where we never see Irene's POV.
Kai wrote: I thought Soames suing Bosinney over a small amount of money, yet not confronting the man about the relationship with his wife, was very telling of "the man of property." Part of it was not wanting to confirm the rumors, but also, I think, that he didn't consider it "a good risk."It is very telling, and I hadn't really thought about it. But I think it makes sense that the "man of property" has chosen to fight on a playing field he is more comfortable with.
Soames saw the threat immediately. He hired Bosinney to control him, to turn him into his employee. Spending more money than authorized was Bosinney's way of telling Soames he can't buy him off, and he is certainly no employee. It's his way of sticking it in Soames eye.Still, it says something about Bosinney's character that he would go over budget without first seeking permission from the person for whom he works.
Soames may love his wife, but he can't get past seeing her as a possession, and he talks to her as if she is one. He is a flawed and tragic figure, and in his own way as much a victim of property as he is a beneficiary.
I dislike Bosinney more. He treats June in a most disgraceful manner; he even ignores her when passing her on the street.
June is being betrayed by her fiancee and her best friend. Betrayal is devastating because of who it is doing the betraying. It's effects go beyond heartbreaking, striking at the heart of trust, and we see it taking its toll on June.
Only Old Jolyon sees the human tragedy unfolding, the desperation consuming June. For all the other Forsytes, male and female, gossiping about the scandal, I can't think of a one who has expressed concern for June. Or Did I miss that?
And then there is Irene. Irene is still mostly an enigma to me. She seems unconcerned about June. She also seems unconcerned about Bossinney's behavior. If Bosinney will do what he is doing to June in front of Irene, then what will stop him from doing the same to her when he meets someone new who captures his fancy?
He is engaged to June. A formal engagement means something. It certainly meant more then than it does now.
Perhaps Irene's marriage is so smothering that reaching out to Bosinney is an act of desperation so consuming that she has no room left to consider June's feelings. There is that one revealing moment, when Uncle Swithin loses control of the horses and the carriage is in danger of crashing, and Irene tells him that crashing may be preferable to returning home.
Xan wrote: "Soames saw the threat immediately. He hired Bosinney to control him, to turn him into his employee. Spending more money than authorized was Bosinney's way of telling Soames he can't buy him off, a..."Yes you make a very good point that while the rest of the family is enjoying the gossip, even as they (or some of them) try and pretend like that don't want anything to do with a scandal, or try and deny to themselves what is happening, no one really expresses any genuine concern for June. There are remarks made about how they knew Bosinney was a bad sort, or that June should not have been involved with him, or that the engagement was sure to end, but no one really seems to truly care about the affect it will have on June herself with the exception of Old Jolyon.
One of the things which I found most....not quite sure just what the right word is, perhaps disheartening, is June's own father complete lack of interest in what is happening to her. While granted Young Jolyon has not been a part of June's life, it was still hard for me to truly reconcile the way in which Old Jolyon goes to his son hoping he might do something to try and intervene someway for Junes sake, and Young Jolyon does not express an iota of caring about what might become of June in all this, He sympathizes with Bosinney because he can relate to the position Bosinney is in, but he cares not what the expenses to his own daughter might be.
In regards to Irene, it is true, she remains an unknown, but it seems as if Irene does not really seem concerned with anyone but Irene. I have the senses that she never truly viewed June as a friend, nor had any real care for June, but perhaps simply indulged in June's presence and companionship because he got her out of the house once in a while. Or she just went along with it, because it was not as if she had anything better to do. But I never really felt a sense of friendship on Irene's side. It felt as if Irene was just simply there. Though it is hard to really say since we never really see things from her own point of view.
It is interesting though how neither Bosinney nor Irene express concern over the way in which the other is hurting someone whom loves them, and someone whom they had made some kind of promises to. Irene is breaking her marriage vows and though she never really loved Soames, she still had agreed to marry him and she has no short of admirers. Bosinney does not think what may become of him if Irene should grow bored of being poor, and some other young handsome man might catch her eye.
Just was though we do not know his initial reasons, Bosinney had been involved with June (maybe it was just for her money) until he saw something more interesting, and Irene gives no thought to what will happen to her if after destroying her marriage, Bosinney should be suddenly taken on another whim and meet someone new and entrancing.
Silver wrote: "One of the things which I found most....not quite sure just what the right word is, perhaps disheartening, is June's own father complete lack of interest in what is happening to her."Yes, I agree, and disheartening is a good word. Not sure about Young Jolyon yet. He seems comfortable in his skin with his lot in life, but too resigned, more like a man twice his age. More resigned to fate than his father.
Good conversation here. Thank you all for your comments. Don't know that at the moment there is much I can add. I have sort of a deep sadness for these characters; they potentially have so much, but they seem not to know what to do with it or take such emotionally damaging actions.Someone elsewhere on goodreads labels Soames as "The Man of Property" of the story. My own inclination is more along the lines of young Jolyon speaking of the Forsythes as a generic for others like them. My reading is that Galsworthy has given his readers a shimmering, shifting image of several examples of "The Man of Property" such that we might want to take a look at how, within this family of brothers and sons, the members of that category are alike -- and at least somewhat different.
One of the things I want to do when I return to the story is to look a bit at how much Galsworthy tells us about Soames's parents in particular.
A Man of Property is a good description of all of the Forsyte men, but Old Jolyon specifically coins the word to describe Soames. There's irony in the term, given that Soames has plenty of property, just not the 'property' he really wants, Irene's heart.
Silver wrote: "Linda wrote: "My humble opinion on Soames and Irene as follows...Mistake upon mistake.
Silver, I agree with you about Irene disregard for her friendship with June. On that alone, she needed to ..."
Lily Bart refused to marry any man she didn't love, and look what happened to her.
Rochelle wrote: Lily Bart refused to marry any man she didn't love, and look what happened to her. "I suppose the question is what would Irene have done if she had met Bosinney prior to marrying Soames?
Lily had the opportunity to marry the man she loved, but because she was brought up to value materialism and wealth turned her back upon him but at the same time she was unable to sacrifice love to marry purely for wealth.
If Irene had met Bosinney before being trapped in a marriage with a man she did not love, would she still feel the same way about him? and would she be willing to sacrifice the chance of wealth to marry purely for love if she was offered that opportunity prior to being married?
Silver wrote: "...If Irene had met Bosinney before being trapped in a marriage with a man she did not love, would she still feel the same way about him? and would she be willing to sacrifice the chance of wealth to marry purely for love if she was offered that opportunity prior to being married? ..."Irene is beginning to remind me of the virgin mythological creatures that resist marriage in the stories of Ovid ( Metamorphoses ), which I am currently reading with another goodreads group -- almost, but not quite, since she does seem attracted to Bosinney -- but whether for himself, or as an escape, I am not sure. This may be in the next (interlude) section, I don't remember for certain, so (view spoiler)
Lily wrote: "Irene is beginning to remind me of the virgin mythological creatures that resist marriage in the stories of Ovid ( Metamorphoses )..."We read it in Latin class in college, and Atalanta is one of my heroines.She would marry only a man who could beat her in a race (as I remember it.)
Rochelle wrote: "We read it in Latin class in college, and Atalanta is one of my heroines. She would marry only a man who could beat her in a race (as I remember it.) ..."Rochelle -- Her story (with Hippomenes) seems to be primarily in Book X, and I haven't gotten there yet. But she is alluded to XIII, in the boar hunt with Meleager, which I should be reading, but am lagging even that. It must have been fun as a young student to be able to read Ovid in Latin, given his light, saucy attitude and sometimes salacious stories. But the reading, in English, is more demanding than I really anticipated.
Lily wrote: "Rochelle wrote: "We read it in Latin class in college, and Atalanta is one of my heroines. She would marry only a man who could beat her in a race (as I remember it.) ..."Rochelle -- Her story (w..."
We read an abridged version. And I think the light sauciness disappeared as we stumbled through each sentence. But I do remember Atalanta.
Was the death of Bosinney and accident, like it had been suggested ( I forget by which character) brought on by the stress he was in which caused him to simply lack concentration on his surroundings, or was it suicide? And if he did commit suicide what was this motivation?
Was it because of the lawsuit and the way in which the ruling had financially ruined him?
Young Jolyon refuses to belief this, because he declares that a man such as finances but that could be Jolyon's own romanticizing Bosinney and his situation because he sees something of himself in Bosinney, Young Jolyon also seems to be somewhat enchanted by Irene which could affect his judgement of the situation.
Or did Bosinney kill himself on account of Soames finally giving into asserting his "rights" upon Irene that one night?
And what of the reaction of the Forsyte's? Is their inability to entertain the idea that it was suicide because they would somehow feel guilty and want to absolve themselves of any culpability?
Or is it simply that committing suicide goes too much against the principles of a "Man of Property?"
I also thought the conversation between June and Irene was quite interesting. It was thus far I think one of my favorite scenes within the book. I also believe it is the first time we actually get to "hear/see" Irene speak for herself, though she does not say much. Her reaction to June's presence in the apartment only further's the enigma, and really gives no indication of what he true thoughts and feelings might be.
Mod
I was moved by a passage at the end of chapter 6, after Soames has found that Irene didn't take anything that he or his family had given her and he weeps over the realization that she loathed him and had likely always loathed him:
"In that moment of emotion he betrayed the Forsyte in him-forgot himself, his interests, his property-was capable of almost anything; was lifted into the pure ether of the selfless and unpractical.
Such moments pass quickly."
It seems as if the very qualities that have allowed the family to flourish, the ruthless single minded pursuit of wealth and property, are now that qualities that have lessened their humanity and their ability to forge relationships.
There is also the scene in which Soames surprises his parents in a moment of intimacy-his father in his shirtsleeves helping his mother to fasten her gown-and realizes that he and Irene have never shared that kind of closeness. Probably for the first time in years he subsequently receives tenderness and comfort from his mother for his likely loss of Irene.
I agree that blame for the general unhappiness is probably shared by many, and I found this whole section quite poignant.
Frances wrote: "There is also the scene in which Soames surprises his parents in a moment of intimacy-his father in his shirtsleeves helping his mother to fasten her gown-and realizes that he and Irene have never shared that kind of closeness. Probably for the first time in years he subsequently receives tenderness and comfort from his mother for his likely loss of Irene."He seems so familiar to me here, a person without social skills and unable to understand the feelings of others. In the TV show, you can almost see his brain grinding away, searching for the right words in a social situation. Even before raping her, he is clueless as to why she dislikes him.
I'm trying to remember which other literary character he resembles.
Frances wrote: "...I agree that blame for the general unhappiness is probably shared by many, and I found this whole section quite poignant. ..."Frances -- your sentence sent me to the dictionary to ponder the word "blame" (definition in spoiler): (view spoiler)
While certainly we all probably use "blame" in the second sense of "to attribute responsibility to," I was for some reason thrown back to some business training that encouraged not assessing or assigning "blame," for reasons of the judgmental and disapproval overtones of the first meaning, which reflects the origins of the word. I oft find it so difficult to determine appropriate judgment versus simply learning from what is and has been so as to determine how to move forward. I think I like that Galsworthy seems to present his characters, with all their sometimes significant shortcomings, with minimal "blame" but without denying accountability, while still recognizing that humans may find ways to slide around direct involvement.
Does what I have just written make any sense? Responsibility is not to be denied, but it may be; the past cannot be changed; denigration isn't likely to help; where and what from here....
I finished this a few days ago. I don't find any character sympathetic. I really began to despise them all! Does the rest of the series introduce any characters that would be enjoyable to meet and become acquainted with?
Isn't it odd that Galsworthy made no characters completely sympathetic, although we have some sympathy for many of them? Just like real life.I've seen the TV series. Your wish will be fulfilled later, Emily. But also, G. himself became more sympathetic toward Soames when he returned to the series after the war.
What struck me most about the last section of this novel was how mechanical Soames was. You could tell he had some empathy for Irene but it seemed completely foreign to his character.
Yes, I know how you feel Emily. Except I found the detestable characters that I hated between the mini-series and the book were not the same for me.
Does anyone know who other contenders for the Nobel Prize were in 1932? I'm wondering what writers Galsworthy was compared against at the time.http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prize...
SPOILER ALERT -- this award ceremony speech has spoilers in relation to the entire series.
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prize...
I have not read Thomas Mann's Buddenbrooks: The Decline of a Family , but some day I'd like to be able to contrast it with The Forsyte Saga.
I do not know what other novels were directly in contention for the Nobel prize that year, but the Pulitzer that year went to Pearl S. Buck for "The Good Earth." Faulkner's "Light in August" also came out that year.
Casceil wrote: "I do not know what other novels were directly in contention for the Nobel prize that year, but the Pulitzer that year went to Pearl S. Buck for "The Good Earth." Faulkner's "Light in August" also ..."Thank you, Casceil. Faulkner received the Nobel in 1949; Pearl Buck, in 1938. In general, the Nobel tends to be awarded more for an oeuvre, rather than a specific book, like the Pulitzer is. I presume that those who immediately followed Galsworthy, like Ivan Alekseyevich Bunin (1933), Luigi Pirandello (1934), Eugene Gladstone O'Neill (1936), .., may have already been under consideration, but usually there are others as well. I do not know the works of either Bunin or Pirandello. This was in that period between two world wars. (Thomas Mann was in 1929; apparently some member of the Swedish committee objected to The Magic Mountain, so Buddenbrooks is specifically cited. However, others will claim that it was really MM that cinched the award.)
caallas wrote: "Yes, I know how you feel Emily. Except I found the detestable characters that I hated between the mini-series and the book were not the same for me."::Chuckle, chuckle::
Lily wrote: "Does anyone know who other contenders for the Nobel Prize were in 1932? I'm wondering what writers Galsworthy was compared against at the time.http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prize......"
Nominations for Nobel prizes are kept secret, but released after fifty years - this is the list for the 1932 literature prize. Glasworthy was competing with Karel Capek, Paul Valery and Upton Sinclair.
Andreea wrote: "Glasworthy was competing with Karel Capek, Paul Valery and Upton Sinclair."Also, apparently with F.E. Sillanpää (1939), known for his stories of Finnish peasant families:
"for his deep understanding of his country's peasantry and the exquisite art with which he has portrayed their way of life and their relationship with Nature"
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prize...
One of his novels that has been translated into English: The Maid Silja (Silja): "the history of the last offshoot of an old family tree."
http://openlibrary.org/books/OL178631...
Andreea -- thanks much for this information. I did not know it was so directly available, especially not on the Web. I thought there were only articles with "speculations."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karel_%C...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Valery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upton_si... (He is a character in Joyce Carol Oates' The Accursed which is my current "listening to" book.)
Weighing in, quite late into the conversation. It did not occur to me that Philip might be spending money so freely as a means of 'taking' Soames. Or that they might have begun contending for Irene long before the decision to build had been made. These are really interesting ideas, and I want to do a reread of the first book with them in mind. From my perspective, I saw Philip and Soames as almost allegorical figures for art versus finance. Many artists have struggled against their patrons for "a free hand." Even against society itself, whose acceptance or denigration can mean the difference between survival or destruction.
Also, we often characterize commerce and those who deal successfully in it, as calculating, hard, unfeeling... Perhaps, there is less sympathy for June because she is seen as such a "Forsythe." I honestly can't imagine her welcoming pity or anything she might construe as such. It may be that the family, including her father, simply assume that with her Forsythe constitution, she will come through relatively unscathed... As long as she incurs no loss of property.
Emotional pain is much stickier that outrage or indignation. The older generation seems to go to lengths to avoid expressing too much sticky emotion. Even when they must feel deeply. Such as Old Jolyon turning his back on his son when the young man went against the dictates of their conventions.
Galsworthy has done such a brilliant job of creating characters with delicious dichotomy. And, in that, gives the reader the chance to challenge perceptions of class and societal constructs.
Renee wrote: "...Or that they might have begun contending for Irene long before the decision to build had been made...."Thx for mentioning that, Renee. I remember thinking that at some point while reading -- I can't tell you where -- but didn't backtrack to see if I could find textual evidence.
rochelle wrote.... I'm trying to remember which other literary character Soames resembles Did you ever figure it out?
Silver wrote: "My initial instinctual reaction to Bosinney was that he was just trying to milk Soames for as much as he could by over spending, and trying to get Soames to agree to give him a free hand..."I thought that Bosinney knew the situation was untenable, and was trying to extricate himself from it. Used the decorating costs as a way to legally exit the contract.
Silver wrote: "If Irene had met Bosinney before being trapped in a marriage with a man she did not love, would she still feel the same way about him? and would she be willing to sacrifice the chance of wealth to marry purely for love if she was offered that opportunity prior to being married? "Yes, definitely! She would have married Bosinney if they had met a few years earlier.
Bonnie wrote: "I thought that Bosinney knew the situation was untenable, and was trying to extricate himself from it. Used the decorating costs as a way to legally exit the contract. ..."I wondered something like that, too, at times. But overall Bosinney ended up coming across to me as one of those architects for whom it is my way or the by way. I believe Frank Lloyd Wright had that reputation, too, on some of his projects, and Bosinney reminded me of FLW in several ways, especially in artistic demand and purity, but including a notorious affair with the wife of a key client and not always strict adherence to financial responsibility.
Bonnie wrote: "Silver wrote: "If Irene had met Bosinney before being trapped in a marriage with a man she did not love, would she still feel the same way about him? and would she be willing to sacrifice the chanc..."Why do you say that? I am just curious what makes you so convinced this is true.
She marries Soamms for money. She knew she did not love him from day one.
Surely Soames could not have been the first person to ever express an interest in her. If she would have been willing to marry someone penniless (and thus was more concerned about love than money) why didn't she wait until she did actually meet someone she loved before getting married?
The other side of the question is whether Bosinney would have been attracted to Irene if he didn't think she was somehow connected to wealth and prestige. I never felt Galsworthy made Bosinney a particularly likeable character, although one definitely could be sympathetic to his creative talents. To me, romantically he came across as either opportunistic (June) or foolhardy (Irene). [He may have shared some of June's empathy for the underdog.] As a businessman, he seemed portrayed as rather clueless.I eventually got the sense Galsworthy's working through some of his own history as he wrote may have gotten in the way of creating fully rounded and understandable characters.
The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910
Books mentioned in this topic
The Accursed (other topics)Silja (other topics)
Buddenbrooks: The Decline of a Family (other topics)
Metamorphoses (other topics)
Part III
CHAPTER I—MRS. MACANDER'S EVIDENCE
CHAPTER II—NIGHT IN THE PARK
CHAPTER III—MEETING AT THE BOTANICAL
CHAPTER IV—VOYAGE INTO THE INFERNO
CHAPTER V—THE TRIAL
CHAPTER VI—SOAMES BREAKS THE NEWS
CHAPTER VII—JUNE'S VICTORY
CHAPTER VIII—BOSINNEY'S DEPARTURE
CHAPTER IX—IRENE'S RETURN