Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
discussion
Veritaserum-for the truth
date
newest »
newest »
Harry Potter is honestly full of plot holes, but the quality of the major story fixes that. You shouldn't focus on a little mistake like that.
Oh no!I was just thinking that Sirius' name would be cleared before he died not after..and Harry would had had some peace ..for a change.
Veritaserum is extremely difficult to brew and Severus says it's a rare potion. Just three drops in your pumpkin juice will have you telling the truth. He doesn't have any of this potion though, until the fifth book and then Delores uses all of it on the D.A. members.Additionally, Fudge is so anxious to NOT have Voldemort back, he is doing all he can to blame everyone else for everything, but the actual people who should be blamed. He's power hungry and blind to what others suggest. He's so frightened of losing his job, for example, that he allows Dementors to perform the kiss on Barty Crouch Jr. before they could question him further.
With Sirius, he absolutely cannot be seen to have been mistaken. All the hoopla he's put out about Sirius would easily be put to rest if he would do something simple like using veritaserum, but then his authority would be questioned because he didn't when it would have done some good.
After his escape, Fudge is even worse.
So while it's an elegant solution, it's hinted that it's not a practical one because of the complexity of the potion. I even got the sense it was the rarity of the ingredients that made it so hard to make.
I think it would be worth the time for the Ministry to just have veritaserum brewers for inquisitions, though.
They thought he was mad, so Veritaserum would be pointless. Truth is what you think is true, it wouldn't work properly on an insane mind.
It wouldn't have mattered if they gave him veritaserum. Sirius believed he had murdered Pettigrew. Had they given it to him and asked him if he had committed murder, he would have told them he had. Sirius didn't realize until he saw the picture of the Weasleys in the Daily Prophet that Pettigrew was alive.If veritaserum could make you tell truths you didn't know, then Dumbledore could've pumped any member of the Order full of it and asked them what Voldemort's plans were and they could have told him even though they wouldn't otherwise know.
C.C. is right, Sirius believed he had murdered Peter. He would have been in Azkaban anyway. I thought maybe the original poster meant when he was locked in the tower-why didn't they use it then?
I
I accidentally sent that!What I was going to say was that I never thought of it but it is a good question that was helpfully answered by the other posters, then I backspaced and hoped no one was on line ;)
Only the stalkers are on line...bwahahahaIt is a good question. It's not really a plot hole, but more of a plot device by JKR. She doesn't use veritaserum because it plays a large part in a later book and would diminish the definite story line there.
She also wants Sirius to escape so she can promote Fudge's self-interested career path. Sirius can't be a scapegoat when he's innocent and Fudge can't remain in denial. Fudge's ineptitude is a huge reason the remaining books work. It's why Voldemort can gain so much foothold. It's an important plot device, but it's not a plot hole.
Just because there is a logical alternative to a story doesn't mean it's a plot hole, it means the story went a different way. Nothing in the Sirius line is an unexplained plot hole, nor an illogical direction for the story to take.
There is indeed a Veritaserum antidote and it is unknown what it is called, but Slughorn would likely know what it is and have it handy. Especially since he was trying to keep that memory from Dumbledore out of shame.The Ministry of Magic has strict regulations about the use of Veritaserum. The only thing we know about it is that Snape told Umbridge it takes a month to brew. He could have been saying that to keep her from using more, or he could have been telling the truth-it's unknown.
Firstly,I am not talking about the time when Voldemort vanished,I am talking about the time in present-or you can say in Harry's third year.So,at that time Sirius knew that Peter was alive,so did Harry,Ron,Hermione and Lupin.Secondly,I am not saying it is a plot hole, just that it might be an alternative to what actually happened.Thirdly,the Veritaserum is used in the 4th book also,on Barty Crouch Jr.Fourthly,I am feeling extremely annoyed no one actually understood my question and fifthly,thank you everyone for your responses(though they hardly cleared my query).
Farheen, Fudge did not want Sirius cleared--if he had, he would have to admit that Voldemort was on the rise again. He did not want that, he wanted a scapegoat. Second, the plot hole comment I made was in response to Kai's comment. I don't view it as a plot hole and I was just commenting to that end.
Third, the Veritaserum was used on Barty Crouch, Jr., but we can't know about that until then, otherwise it will have been used too many times before the D.A. was organized. We'd have seen how Delores was getting her information too easily.
Fourth, I understood your question to be that you wondered why it wasn't used while he was in the tower before Harry and Hermione broke him out. Again, because Fudge needed to blame him for everything because he was in denial about Voldemort.
I think I overreacted a bit. Anyways,it seems you are right and maybe it would have been better for Fudge to go the right way.Alas!As Dumbledore said that he was so obsessed with his position and so in love with his chair,I should have expected him to do so.
It's a bit like the mirror that Sirius gave Harry. If he had only used it, so much could have been avoided! But, because Harry was single-minded in his decision making, he didn't use it!Using the Veritaserum would have been a simple solution to the truth, but Fudge's single-mindedness toward keeping his job (and his denial) intact made it a non-option.
Ironically, if he had indeed used the potion as well as taken the lead in announcing Voldemort's return, I think Fudge would have been less disgraced in the long run.
C.C. wrote: "It wouldn't have mattered if they gave him veritaserum. Sirius believed he had murdered Pettigrew. Had they given it to him and asked him if he had committed murder, he would have told them he ha..."Sorry, that's not correct. Sirius didn't think he had killed Pettigrew. He had intended to kill him in revenge for Lily and James' deaths, but he said himself that Peter was too fast for him and blew up the street and transformed into a rat before Sirius could attack him. Sirius knew Peter was alive the whole time. The significance of him seeing Peter as a rat in the paper with Ron was that he now knew that Peter was at Hogwarts in a perfect position to kill Harry if he ever heard so much as a whisper that Voldemort was getting strong again. He escaped to kill Peter before he could do any more harm, such as killing Harry, not because he had only then realized Peter was still alive.
I sincerely believed he thought Pettigrew was dead, so I looked it up (thanks, Katie!) Sirius was sentenced to Azkaban without a trial for the death of Peter, 12 muggles, and for being a traitor for telling Voldemort where James and Lily were, thus causing his death. He was picked up and packed off. There was not going to be any testimony, let alone any attempt to get the truth from him.
Fudge was present at the scene of the crime and it was in his best career interests to have everything tied up in a neat, pretty bow.
Well,the whole thing comes on Fudge. If he hadn't done what he did,so much could be avoided.And yes,the mirror was something Harry could have used but didn't.It kept me curious throughout the 5th book what was in the parcel Sirius gave Harry and why hadn't he checked on it.Alas!JK meant it to be like that and that is how it goes...Thank you everyone for your responses.
Katie wrote: "C.C. wrote: "It wouldn't have mattered if they gave him veritaserum. Sirius believed he had murdered Pettigrew. Had they given it to him and asked him if he had committed murder, he would have to..."Well in that case it is a massive plot hole that Sirius never ever mentioned it to anyone. One attempt to catch the man who betrayed your best friends is enough. Why even attempt to assert your innocence or tell anyone that they should be on the lookout for this fiend? Best to let him go about whatever nefarious business he might be up to while you knowingly rot in a prison cell. Innocent people do this all the time, right? Inmates never make public appeals.
This book was initially my favorite of the series, but the more I revisit the whole series of events in the shrieking shack, the more it diminishes in my estimation. It's bad enough that Sirius and Lupin speak in vague pronouns and obscure what they mean in ways that only characters in misdirecting books do, but to never even attempt to warn anyone is absurd.
Using Veritaserum at the scene of the crime would have made the Ministry of Magic seem efficient, which they were not, a point Rowling wanted to make very clear. It was the Ministry's bungling that made the whole Sirius affair more - well - serious. They were incapable of conducting a proper investigation and because of that nearly killed a man for something he didn't do.
Sorry, C.C., I fail to see the plot hole. Sirius corners Peter; Peter cuts off his finger, yells Sirius did it!, and blasts the alleyway, making his escape as a rat; Sirius laughs maniacally at the situation; Fudge arrives, sentences him, and the MoM disapparates with Sirius, arriving at Azkaban. Sirius now has to fight the overwhelming presence of the Dementors. There are no humans guarding the prison, so who, exactly, is going to listen to a convicted murderer and raving madman? "The Dementors do not have pity, they do not distinguish between their target and those who get in their way..."
Lupin, meanwhile, believes Sirius betrayed James and Lily because the last he knew, Sirius was the secret-keeper. He hadn't been told that Peter now had the job. When he finds out that Peter Pettigrew is still alive, he begins to doubt Sirius's guilt.
Sirius barely escapes and is now not only on the run from the wizarding world, but the Muggle world knows he's escaped-they have it all over the news,too! Who is he supposed to tell?
Fudge hushed it all up to look good in capturing the murderer of muggles and the traitor to James and Lily and co-conspirator to Voldemort. He was made Minister, remember. Is he going to mention any doubt? No.
Eliza makes a great point-the Ministry of Magic is driven by power and incompetency.
There is no plot hole, just an alternate story path that has no holes.
Jeni wrote: "There is no plot hole, just an alternate story path that has no holes"This is only true if you accept that otherwise intelligent characters behave in the stupidest and most convenient way possible. Sirius knows that the man who betrayed his best friends to their death is still free, but he makes no attempt to protest his innocence to Fudge when he arrives. The ministry gives plenty of other people trials but not Sirius. Death Eaters get hearings in front of the Wizengamut to give information on other Death Eaters. People often make brief stays in Azkaban, only to be later released (see: Hagrid in CoS). Yet Sirius never makes any attempt to tell anyone that the man who turned over James and Lily Potter to Voldemort is alive and free. No "Look for a rat missing this toe on this paw, he'll probably attach himself to a wizarding family to keep up on news." The only explanation that adequately explains Sirius's behavior is that he was mad when he was arrested, but then inexplicably became less mad in Azkaban. This makes no sense. The only reasonable conclusion is that Rowling made her characters act in unnatural ways to fit the story she wanted to tell. As such, this is a plot hole.
Or, perhaps that "plot hole" is not a hole. Perhaps it is a statement on the neglect of the government. When law enforcers are called to the scene, whether they be aurors or police, a general public has a general course of action they demand to be taken and the enforcers are pressured to take that action to resume the peace. In this case, Sirius had a bounty on his head and everyone was happy when Sirius was caught. They probably when with the mass hysteria and figured they had the guy, end of story, case closed.
I'm still not sure who exactly you expect Sirius to tell? The Dementors don't care and there are no humans, wizard or otherwise at Azkaban except broken, insane criminals. Who is he supposed to tell?Additionally, he was grieving the death of his friends, full of rage because Peter got away, and hysterically laughing when Fudge arrives. By the time he would have settled down, he would have been convicted and his babbling dismissed as madness-he was laughing maniacally! Nothing he would have said would have been taken seriously. After all, they caught the bad guy, so the case is closed and Fudge is a hero.
Not enjoying the fact that Fudge's motives and agenda causes a series of events to happen is still not a plot hole.
And one last thought: Sirius himself explains that the Dementors feed off of happy thoughts and he stayed focused on his innocence. Because that isn't a happy thought-being innocent in Azkaban-the Dementors didn't have much of him to feed on. So, yes, once he was ensconced in prison, his focus and thoughts of revenge kept him sane and away from the Dementors.
Alright, maybe it is time for the discussion to end.
Farheen wrote: "Alright, maybe it is time for the discussion to end."Just five more minutes, Mom! Pleassssseee? :D
I'm enjoying the conversation, but if it was my comments that led to you thinking we should stop, then I apologize, for there was no malice intended in my posts.
Oh no!Nothing you said made me think like that.Well,you can continue if you want to.No harm in hearing what you've got to say and I'm no one to stop people from expressing their views and anyways,this thread is not wishing to be deleted..
all discussions on this book
|
post a new topic
After they captured Black,why didn't they just pour down some Veritaserum down his throat for the truth?I agree with the fact that they had 13 witnesses of Black blasting the whole street and murdering Pettigrew, so they didn't possibly need to hear anything from Black himself. Also, he went away with them,laughing.But now (against Snape's protests)as Harry and Hermione were saying(as would Ron afterwards)that he was innocent,they should have tried the Veritaserum.Atleast Dumbledore should have thought of this.This woulnd't ruin the story completey-for Peter would have still escaped and Voldemort would have returned.
What do you think?