The Pickwick Club discussion
Nicholas Nickleby
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Nickleby Chapters 1-7
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Hi, Debbie & Jess!Debbie, if I would have had to wait a month to read the next installment of any book, much less a Dickens book, I would have been crazier than I already am!! I read every minute I can without stop.
Jess, I too love this book, it's one of my favorites, this is my fifth time reading it!
Hello and welcome to the newcomers!I can only agree with you, Kim, that it is very hard indeed not to read too far in advance. It is interesting, though, how your tastes change as time goes by, because this is my third reading of NN, and when I read it the second time I was not too impressed with it but found it rather wooden and hardly as entertaining as the first time. This time, however, I'm enjoying every word of it. If it had not been for our honourable Pickwick Club I would probably never have re-read NN. Here's to you, fellow Pickwickians!
Kim wrote: "Oh, and whenever someone asks me what I'll be doing in heaven I tell them if I'm not decorating for Christmas just look for me in the never ending library. "Maybe the never-ending library will also contain a version of The Mystery of Edwin Drood completed by Dickens himself, who will be, I suppose, still writing lots of books.
Tristram wrote: "Kim wrote: "Oh, and whenever someone asks me what I'll be doing in heaven I tell them if I'm not decorating for Christmas just look for me in the never ending library. "Maybe the never-ending lib..."
Oh, that reminds me, one of these days I have to get around to reading the books written by authors who "finished" The Mystery of Edwin Drood. I have a list of them somewhere, I totally forgot I was going to try to find them and read them to see if any of the "completed versions" are any good. I somehow think I'll be disappointed.
Kim wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Kim wrote: "Oh, and whenever someone asks me what I'll be doing in heaven I tell them if I'm not decorating for Christmas just look for me in the never ending library. "Maybe the..."
One of these books is by Fruttero & Lucentini, "The D Case", in which a bunch of sleuths try to figure out the truth behind the mystery of Edwin Drood. I read it years ago and the fact that I cannot remember any of it may be indicative of the quality of the book. Well, of course, you might argue I just have a bad memory, but it is really too easy to always blame oneself instead of the books.
Kim wrote: "...Jess, I too love this book, it's one of my favorites, this is my fifth time reading it!
YAY! i really loved NN and i am sad to see that it doesn't get/hasn't historically gotten much love.
Jess wrote: "Kim wrote: "...Jess, I too love this book, it's one of my favorites, this is my fifth time reading it!
YAY! i really loved NN and i am sad to see that it doesn't get/hasn't historically gotten ..."
I had forgotten how depressed the early parts of this book made me feel. I'm not a man of violence, but I want to go punch Ralph Nickleby in the nose. He could do so much good with a tiny bit of love and sharing just a few coins, but no. His heart is black and full of venom. He makes me hope that there really is a hell.
I am still working on catching up, but you are right it is an engaging story. I did notfind it humorous at all. I feel so sad for those children and for NN, he really has little idea what he has gotten himself into. I do admire his devotion to his mother and sister, he seems willing to do anything as long as they are comfortable and happy. I can't believe Ralph, he is a scoundrel, and it is men like him that put his brother's family in a position to need his help anyway, oh the irony!
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The fact that Ralph runs the same kind of scams that caused his brother to go bankrupt is something that we passed over, without much comment in this thread. That was a definite point that the author was trying to make about his villian here, I feel. Thanks for bringing that up. You're right; it is a biting irony.
Well, I'm doing the unthinkable and am going to attempt to read the whole of Nicholas Nickleby before we move onto Martin Chuzzlewit. I have never read NN - yes, shame on me - so I'll be adding my comments to the discussion board, even though you have long finished it. As always, I'm interested to read what others have said about it. Also, I'm doing a short Jane Austen course where I'm battling through Juvenilia and need to read Sense and Sensibility within the next month or so. So, plenty on my reading list at the moment!Anyway, onto my comments about the first seven chapters. So, these chapters finish with Nicholas having just read the letter from Newman Noggs, on his first night Greta Bridge. What a situation Nicholas finds himself in, all thanks to his Uncle! Well, Uncle Ralph and Squeers together, what nasty characters. I'm interested to know why a word from Ralph would cause Squeers to change his mind about taking Nicholas as an employee. Obviously, there's something going on there and I'm presuming Noggs will know all about it - I'm hoping he's genuinely going to help Nicholas out. Nicholas, his mother and sister, clearly seem to lack the 'street sense' of those from the city and their naive country minds are going to see them used ill.
I'm interested to see if the stories about the Five Sisters of York and the Baron hold some weight later on down the track. At this stage, they seem like random tales for the purpose of entertainment, however, I can't help but think that there will be more to it.
Being from Yorkshire myself, I'm hoping that Dickens is not going to put all Yorkshire people to shame through Squeers and his wife. I'm sure I'll soon see. From the dialogue and Noggs suggesting that he is from Yorkshire, I live in hope he'll save our reputation! LOL.
Well, I can't really say much more at the moment. I need to get more into the story before I can start making judgements and more meaningful comments.
Tristram wrote: "On the tone of the novelMartha wrote: "You are not the only one, Everyman! While I am enjoying the book, I'm not seeing the humor in these characters ... at least not in this section. I'm over ha..."
Hi Tristram
I have to agree with you here, regarding tone. For me, Dickens' tone seems more emotionally detached, overall, than in other texts. Although we can 'see' the villainy of Uncle Ralph and Squeers quite obviously, Dickens doesn't seem over sympathetic towards those who suffer at their expense. I am guessing I get this feeling because we are not 'in the heads' so much, of the innocent parties.
I'll be more conscious about it as I read along.
Kate wrote: "Well, I'm doing the unthinkable and am going to attempt to read the whole of Nicholas Nickleby before we move onto Martin Chuzzlewit. I have never read NN - yes, shame on me - so I'll be adding my..."Oh, good for you! You are reading one of my favorites. Once you start reading the posts where Everyman, Tristram and Jonathan start picking on poor Nick, just try to remember how grumpy they can be. :-}
Kim wrote: "Kate wrote: "Well, I'm doing the unthinkable and am going to attempt to read the whole of Nicholas Nickleby before we move onto Martin Chuzzlewit. I have never read NN - yes, shame on me - so I'll..."Lol. I'll keep that in mind Kim!
Kate - How serendipitous! I don't know if I said elsewhere, but this is the novel I shall be starting next week! (I too am reading the novels in order; rereads for me, and bi-monthly.)So I too shall be reading through and commenting on each thread as I go, after the relevant chapters. I did this with Oliver Twist and it worked quite well. Sometimes I was talking into the ether, but at others someone was inspired to reply!
You may leave me behind though, as I'm intending to read just a couple of chapters a day, to allow for other reads and a little research :)
I'm looking forward to this one. I remember it as a great book :)
Jean wrote: "Kate - How serendipitous! I don't know if I said elsewhere, but this is the novel I shall be starting next week! (I too am reading the novels in orderereads for me, and bi-monthly.)So I too sh..."
Hi Jean
I'm glad you'll be reading too, although I think I'll be way ahead, but still we can always discuss it. I'm upto chapter 15. I'm not sure if I can keep this momentum going but I'll be trying. I'm loving it so far.
Kate - yes, it looks as though we won't really coincide then. I'm still doing my preparatory reading for this. I'll jot a few things down here, but won't read the thread through until I've reread the first 7 chapters.Prior to writing Nicholas Nickleby Dickens had seen advertisements in the London papers for cheap boarding schools in Yorkshire. It was stressed that there were "no holidays" from these schools. They were a convenient place to dispose of unwanted or illegitimate children. During the writing of Oliver Twist, Dickens and his friend, Hablot Browne (who was to illustrate the book) travelled in secret to Yorkshire to investigate these schools in January 1838. There they met William Shaw, the headmaster of Bowes Academy. The neglect and maltreatment at this notorious school was responsible for several boys' blindness, and some died as a consequence.
I have no doubt that we will encounter Dickens's take on William Shaw, just as in Oliver Twist he based several of his characters on real people, such as Ikey Solomon (Fagin). I discuss that more in my review of "Oliver Twist". I also suspect that Dickens will find it difficult to keep his indignation and social conscience about these dreadful institutions in check.
He was writing at breakneck speed again. Oliver Twist had overlapped The Pickwick Papers by 10 months, and when he started Nicholas Nickleby, Oliver Twist was still a long way from being completed. So the writing in the early part of this novel is perhaps going to feel very familiar, having been written on the same days as the latter half of Oliver Twist. He was also, of course, doing his editing work too. When under pressure, he seemed to just take on more projects and speed them all up!
Jean wrote: "Kate - yes, it looks as though we won't really coincide then. I'm still doing my preparatory reading for this. I'll jot a few things down here, but won't read the thread through until I've reread t..."Hi Jean
Thanks for that useful information. It's terrible to think that Dickens actually had some experience of these terrible institutions/characters. I can't believe people could be so cruel to kids who didn't deserve it and simply, in some cases, just because they were poor or unwanted.
For me personally, it's also sad that this terrible school was in Yorkshire. If anyone should read that and read some of the Bronte Sisters work, they'd think terrible things of Yorkshire! I have gone back several generations in my family tree and I know one of my great grandfather's was very poor and he and his children were imprison in Clifford Tower in York as debtors. It sends a chill down my spine about the possible cruelty that was inflicted on them. I also know other ancestors were sent to a 'school' in London as young boys, when the rest of the children stayed with the parents. Obviously, the parents couldn't look after all the children and those two boys no doubt suffered severely for it. What a terrible time. Mind you, unfortunately, being a high school teacher, I still see terrible neglect of children on part of the parents. I think Dickens would be horrified that we still experience the same social problems.
Are you going to read Martin Chuzzlewit with us?
I know exactly what you mean by a chill down the spine. I have never been brave enough to delve into my ancestry! (Though I can go back a few generations.) I'm sure at the very least some of them would have ended up in the workhouse. It was within my mother's living memory - I can remember her saying so.Watching a few of the "Who Do You Think You Are?" TV programmes I realise how stressful it is for some. I remember one where the actress Alex Kingston found out from the census that most of the houses in one particular street were owned by women. She commented that these must all be fairly well-off professional women... but it took her a while to clock what profession they must have been! Since I can remember her acting the part of Moll Flanders it was quite ironic! She was shocked, but some programmes have been quite heart-breaking.
I won't get to Martin Chuzzlewit in time I'm afraid, although I will follow the discussions with interest, and may join in the comments occasionally from memory. I do want to stick to my basic idea, as I'm learning a lot about Dickens's development as a writer by reading them in order, and I also want to read other things alongside :)
Jean wrote: "I know exactly what you mean by a chill down the spine. I have never been brave enough to delve into my ancestry! (Though I can go back a few generations.) I'm sure at the very least some of them w..."Hi Jean
I remember watching the Stephen Fry episode of "Who do you think you are?" He had family who were Jews who were in the Holocaust. It was tragic. He was so distraught.
OK moving on to the next section now, but I have to say I've enjoyed reading this thread, with its valuable observations, even if a couple did end up being overanalytical! LOL Apart from my earlier comment 67, all I really have to add is a particualr thank you to Everyman for this observation, which had not struck me until now, "I wonder whether perhaps there was an intent to present Ralph Nickleby and Squeers as contrasting characters, different aspects of greed, the one feeding off of adults and being very successful, and the other as feeding off of children and not being so successful. Both are greedy self-centered nasty people, but I have very different views of them.
I agree! :)
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Moll Flanders (other topics)Martin Chuzzlewit (other topics)
Nicholas Nickleby (other topics)
Oliver Twist (other topics)
The Pickwick Papers (other topics)
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I think it was Debbie who said she is interested in Dickens' life. In the Delphi Classics version of Charles Dickens collected works, there are at least 4 biographies; one by his daughter Mamie; as well as at least a dozen works critiquing his novels and such. I would like to propose some of these as group reads once we finish his 15 novels. If you don't want to wait, the Delphi collection is available for $2.99 if you have an ereader; well worth the price.