Constant Reader discussion
Salon
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Why do you think some people hate reading?
Dyslexia often has something to do with reading troubles.
They don't have enough experience and read too slowly. They don't read well.
This is such a fast paced society anymore and reading forces you to slow down. Even when supposedly with family or friends many people are texting or checking their email. Reading requires your full attention, unless listening to an audible book that is. When reading, you need to engage your imagination to conjure up the scenery, and the appearance of the characters from the author’s description. I think that is too much mental work for some who might prefer to have it all presented visually for them. Then again, even with the visuals, lots of people can’t be still enough for just that; they need to also be surfing the web, facebooking and twittering while half paying attention to what is on a screen in front of them.
They are not engaged in the reading and dislike the societal pressure to find certain books good or enjoyable, i.e. they would read if they actually found a book they enjoyed and were not judged for liking it.
Narnian525 wrote: "No, this isn't a topic complaining about people who don't like to read, because everyone has opinions. This topic is instead, for us to dig deeper into the core of the said subject: Let's explore a..."I think rather than "discussing" these kinds of tangential items, our time would be better spent reading and discussing actual books on CR.
Just my opinion, of course. ;-)
I've been teaching reading classes to all ages for 25 years. 99% of the time is a lack of skill. They've just never read enough to gain that zen experience of getting lost in a book.
I agree with Sara and Dottie. Its the reason that I joined CR.
Dottie wrote: "Sara wrote: "Narnian525 wrote: "No, this isn't a topic complaining about people who don't like to read, because everyone has opinions. This topic is instead, for us to dig deeper into the core of t..."I really don't see why these type of discussions are a problem. No one is making you follow the thread. If I am not interested in a topic (like poetry), I just ignore it. It is these types of comments that make many of us feel unwelcome in this group. I hope you are not being intentionally insulting with the goal that all the newcomers (inmates) will disappear so you can have "the good old days back."
Emily wrote: I really don't see why these type of discussions are a problem. No one is making you follow the thread. If I am not interested in a topic (like poetry), I just ignore it. It is these types of comments that make many of us feel unwelcome in this group. I hope you are not being intentionally insulting with the goal that all the newcomers (inmates) will disappear so you can have "the good old days back." I agree, Emily. The tone in this group is so variable - sometimes it's great and other times, it's just mean. I don't understand why people click on threads they aren't interested in.
On the topic, I think there are a lot of reasons why - I wonder how they vary by age. For example, I know people my age (49) or older who don't like to read because they just can't get into a book. Perhaps they just have a hard time visualizing things as they read. But I wonder about younger non-readers and the "speed" factor - whether they just view reading as too slow.
Susan wrote: "Emily wrote: I really don't see why these type of discussions are a problem. No one is making you follow the thread. If I am not interested in a topic (like poetry), I just ignore it. It is these t..."Or it could be peer pressure. Some readers might want to read but reading might not be "in" if they're a member of a popular crowd or trying to impress someone at their school.
Narnian525 wrote: "Susan wrote: "Emily wrote: I really don't see why these type of discussions are a problem. No one is making you follow the thread. If I am not interested in a topic (like poetry), I just ignore it...."That reminds me of a young black boy who loved to read, but stopped when he got to middle school because he was made fun of and was teased because he acted like a "white" boy. I don't know if he resumed reading as he matured.
I can understand the peer pressure in terms of not discussing it with others, but reading is something that can be done on your own - you don't really have to tell anyone. If it's assigned reading for school, then that could be dicey, but you can always hide a book under the bed or something if you don't want anyone to know! I am reminded of coming home from the book festival in Baltimore and hearing a father with his daughter - she got a bag full of books and was having a little trouble carrying them. He said something like, "well, why did you get all of them anyway?" I had to bite my tongue to stop from suggesting he be a little more supportive! So, it's not just peers that apply pressure.
I agree with Dottie and Emily. The Salon Thread is just for talking about stuff. Every group has a variation, often called something having the word "chat" in the title. No one is making me read the Salon Thread. I dip in and out. I like to occasionally see what people have to say about Dottie's table or a book that made them miss their stop, or how much rain Seattle has recorded this year;). Then it's back to Somerset Maugham or Hemingway or Toni Morrison or Alice Munro.
Sometimes children are inadvertently taught to view reading as "punishment" because that is how the activity is (unintentionally) used. -- parent takes away tv and video games or some other extra-curricular activity that the child enjoys and tells the child to read a book instead
-- teacher takes away recess and child is made to sit and read instead
Sometimes this attitude from childhood is carried over into adulthood. They view reading as something that they are forced to do.
I agree with Mocha, sometimes reading is used as a punishment, which is sad. The non-reader is missing an opportunity to explore people, places and things, without leaving their homes.
And I was punished by having books taken away!
☯Emily wrote: "And I was punished by having books taken away!"That must have been awful.
Mochaspresso wrote: "Sometimes children are inadvertently taught to view reading as "punishment" because that is how the activity is (unintentionally) used. -- parent takes away tv and video games or some other extr..."
I agree with your post. So that's why a lot of people view reading as boring or as punishment. I wish more people would learn that reading can be an escape.
I tend to agree with Robert in post # 7 also. Some don't have the skills. I know I have a couple of nephews who find it difficult to read a book. Magazines yes books no. Maybe the novels are too long and they get bored. Whereas magazines are about articles they care about and can be read in a relatively short amount of time.
☯Emily wrote: "And I was punished by having books taken away!"Same here. My mom eventually caught on that all grounding translated into for me was a free pass for me to spend the entire weekend lazily lounging around my bedroom reading and napping. Oh, the torture. lol.
I hope you guys don't find me arrogant, because I can read surprisingly good for only being 19. Some people I know think I read because I have to, and they don't know that I read because I want to. Anyway, hope I'm not sounding stuck up when I say that.
Narnian525 wrote: I agree with your post. So that's why a lot of people view reading as boring or as punishment. I wish more people would learn that reading can be an escapeThis actually ties into an additional theory that if some kids develop that type of attitude toward reading, they have less chance of experiencing that type of escape through reading. Most readers have that one book that hooked them on reading and they remember it. A child that views reading as boring or as a punishment probably never experiences that.
because they have never tried reading for fun :)
I think it has something to do with patience, Reading a novel isn't same as watching movie ... It needs patienceAlso some People cannot connect with book and story within it. If you cannot connect with the story it will be boring to read words for the sake of it
Most important thing is your book choice, if you pick wrong flavor at first ... wrong in the sense of your choice, then it might be difficult to develop the liking
I like this topic because it is something I have always wondered about. I used to teach ESL reading. I read a book by a reading expert who said that people who enjoy reading make a movie of the book in their head. I know that's what I do, although the appearance of the characters stays a little fuzzy.He said that kids who don't like reading can't to this. I think some of this is biological and some of it is lack of good training. If you can't read fluently, you will never get so immersed in a book that you feel you are inside that movie.
I also think that a good teacher or stumbling on the right book can make a huge difference for a lot of kids. I have been told that the Harry Potter series has made readers of a lot young people.
Don't know if anyone mentioned this, but I think a big part of it has come about because of technology. The internet has taught us the art of instant gratification; you can meet someone online, get an answer to a question, check your medical symptoms, etc. pretty much INSTANTLY. It's also extremely visual - as are video games, which occupy so much of the minds and time of children, usually the wilder the visual the more your attention is captivated.Books take a mental investment, don't give you an instant visual of the story or action (something your brain/imagination has to supply itself), and don't have the instant gratification to compete with the internet, texting, videogames, etc.
In other words, I think bad habits start early and kids that don't want to pick up a book when a videogame is the bigger interactive rush, for example. Wish I could explain it better, but for years now I have always said it's a shame that the technology invented to free up our time, generally speaking, is actually making us socially withdrawn from each other.
Being the only one in a large family who reads (and I am a daily, hours-on-end reader), this topic really interests me. My thoughts: 1. As a teacher, when a student said they "hated" something (whether reading, math, or something else), it quite often meant that they weren't very good at it, or didn't feel that they were. That explanation doesn't work for my multitude of sisters, who are quite intelligent and capable, so I have other thoughts.
2. Some people are naturally more kinetic and others less so inclined. I think some people prefer to be physically moving, while others (me!) could happily lay around on a couch for days and finish several novels.
3. Some people have more of a base that leads them to be interested in more subjects. I was lucky enough to be brought up with plenty of travel, and then a broad range of university subjects over a lot of years there gave me interest in a wide variety of subjects and topics. I notice that many who read confine themselves to kind of junky romance novels, which would bore me to tears, and I credit my education to some extent.
4. Some above have noted, as I have, that attention span has shortened in our culture, and many have become conditioned to immediate stimulation.
5. I consciously sought out and found a large measure of peacefulness and quietness of mind that makes it immensely enjoyable to just hang out and breathe (or read, or even take a book down to a river and semi-ignore the book at times). I think this feeling of inner peace of mind is something many don't know how to reliably enjoy/exist in, and it is a great part of what makes me deliriously happy to hang out in a pleasant place with me, myself, and a book.
I had skimmed Don's post, and just reread it, as it made excellent points. I also think frequently of how technology, though wonderful, has made us more withdrawn socially. I think soon babies in the U.S. will be born with one hand up to their ear so as to hold a cell at all times.
Excellent insights Dan and Lyn.I especially like your remarks about some people needing to be more physically active, Lyn, because I've never thought of that before. I've always had a lot of curiosity and a habit of getting at least some of my "social" interaction from the people in books. Those things have made a lot of difference in my reading life.
I think reasons for disliking reading are numerous - most of which have been mentioned and likely change with time. As a person who didn't start out "loving" reading, I can share my reasons!
High school English class was a big reason I was initially put off by reading. I was forced to read a "classic" which I did not appreciate at the time. There was also a time-frame and a book-report which came after we finished a novel.
Anyway... after that was over I had the choice of reading books that appealed to me which I could also finish at my own pace without having to scrutinize every chapter for quotes I needed for a report.
There you have it folks!
Portia wrote: "Dyslexia often has something to do with reading troubles."I know someone with dyslexia who doesn't read much -- until permitted to run a finger along the line to keep track. I don't know any reading teachers. Is this still and issue?
Paulina wrote: "I think reasons for disliking reading are numerous - most of which have been mentioned and likely change with time. As a person who didn't start out "loving" reading, I can share my reasons!
Hig..."
It's too bad about English teachers. People read stuff on assignment all the time. If you're writing a book or a dissertation or a paper this can be a protracted experience. I think kids in school should have the experience of reading uncongenial material. In science classes it's kind of understood, I think, that having a good time is a good thing, and it makes learning easier, but in the end the only thing that counts is knowing your stuff.
Is it only because English class isn't really Important, and there's nothing to know -- it's all opinion, isn't it? -- and nobody talks about this stuff anyway except when they want to lay a weight on you.
Did someone ever make you like a book you didn't want to like? How did they do it?
Why should every kid in class have to like everything? Is that what English class is about? I'm old and out of date. Is that the way it is now? Why isn't it about story-telling? I think everyone likes to be told stories.
Maybe not. I remember my best friend's mom always telling us to quit that reading and go outside and play. My neighbor told me when he was young people would say, when they thought he might be lying "Now don't story me."
Charles wrote: "Paulina wrote: "I think reasons for disliking reading are numerous - most of which have been mentioned and likely change with time. As a person who didn't start out "loving" reading, I can share ..."
As per your comment "Did someone ever make you like a book you didn't want to like? How did they do it?": Two days ago, I was told by an in-person moderator in a local book club that "all intellectuals like 'The Catcher in the Rye.' She continued by saying that if I didn't, then I couldn't be an intellectual nor could I have had much reading experience. The ridiculing continued for a few more minutes. Do I like the book better now? No.
A similar experience has occurred with Moby-Dick. Every teacher has tried to convince me it is the world's greatest book. I believe it is one of the world's worst. None of the snide remarks has made me change my mind, including ridicule on GR.
I think some people can give convincing evidence a book has literary qualities, but that doesn't mean I like it. However, ridicule and nastiness is a guaranteed way to make one despise a book.
Emily I feel the same aboutRemembrance of Things Past: Volume I - Swann's Way & Within a Budding Grove and all subsequent volumes, which have been described as the greatest books ever written. Do I feel deprived, no, do I feel inferior because I don't like them, no, and do I care if other's think I lack in intellect, no. That was very rude of the person to attack you , because you didn't agree with them.I happened to like Moby-Dick that doesn't make me any smarter than any other person, it means I like details. All other books there is "Cliff Notes".
Believe it or not, this even happens on the elementary school level. For example, some teachers see Shel Silverstein's "The Giving Tree" as a wonderful tale about sacrifice and unconditional love and become very defensive and condescending when a more analytical child challenges their viewpoint (...and inadvertently ruins their entire lesson) by seeing it as a tale of pure selfishness on the boy's part. If this type of thing happens to a person repeatedly during their formative years, I think it is very easy to understand how they could have developed an aversion to reading.
This is interesting. I grew up reading, mostly comic books and then mostly fiction but branched out to non-fiction which I have a preference for these days. I wasn't influenced by my parents. My children grew up being read to and they are both avid readers. I know at least one person who doesn't read because he feels it just takes away from him "doing" things. I sometimes have that feeling too but am always drawn to trying to read something in between doing other things. I am thinking that reading is a learned experience but that there is a genetic aspect to it.
I've got one child who loves reading and one child who hates it. The hater had a learning disability that made it impossible for her to sound out words. Visual processing deficiency, in the bottom 1% of the entire country. I had to spend two hours a day teaching her sight vocabulary for her to be able to read at all. The learning specialist told me it should have been impossible for my daughter and wanted to know how I did it. She just shook her head when I told her. My daughter can read now, and after a year of therapy can sound out new words, but reading is just hard work for her. I taught my son to read when he was ready in the summer before first grade -- and he read so much he entered regular school at 4th grade reading level.Another point: we don't learn to love reading by reading Literature. We learn to love it by reading huge piles of the less reputable stuff. For me it was comics and science fiction. Later on, I was ready for harder books, and loved them. Poor readers forced to read books they aren't ready for will hate those books.
I'm appalled at the experiences reported by Emily, Carol, and Mochaspresso. When I asked whether someone ever made you like a book I wasn't thinking of "make" as browbeating of this sort. It's a shame that young (or not so young) people should be cut off in this way. Of course, many have been similarly browbeaten over comic books, television, rock and roll, and other aspects of popular culture, also a shame. Perhaps I should have asked whether you had ever found that you liked a book you hadn't wanted to read. How did that come about? Surely there are talented sympathetic teachers who can do this? Perhaps if one can draw on an experience of having been read to by someone loved and trusted?
My own reading experience resembles that of Glynn and Robert. When on my own, first comic books, mysteries, and science fiction. I didn't start to read history until I met some historians on my first academic job. I read plenty of books I wasn't ready for, but that was me on my own, experimenting. In school I was always giving reports on weird books nobody else read, like Shakespeare (Henry VI) and Freud (Interpretation of Dreams) and Plato. If anyone had insisted I read them I don't think anything good could have come of that. I just felt that the world was full of interesting things I wanted to know about.
Robert wrote: "Another point: we don't learn to love reading by reading Literature. We learn to love it by reading huge piles of the less reputable stuff. For me it was comics and science fiction. Later on, I was ready for harder books, and loved them. Poor readers forced to read books they aren't ready for will hate those books. "I couldn't agree more on this as I started my passion of reading from home.
And until today, History is still less attractive to me. Even though I am teaching History for Middle School but its another story.
Charles wrote: "Perhaps I should have asked whether you had ever found that you liked a book you hadn't wanted to read. How did that come about? Surely there are talented sympathetic teachers who can do this? Perhaps if one can draw on an experience of having been read to by someone loved and trusted? "
These questions reminded me that I had to read philosophy when I was in college. I thought I was gonna hate them at first, considering that I never liked anything related to History and everything happened in the past but surprisingly, I kinda liked them. And still like philosophy.
But I think people would react differently under different circumstances.
I was once a member of a reading group which had some rules about what the discussants could talk about. We were confined to the text, and not allowed to bring in the surrounding culture to help explain aspects of the book. When you're given Reinhold Niebuhr and can't deal with his political and ideological agenda it's difficult to say anything at all. I was taught art history the same way, with no social setting. Curiosity-killers.
Charles wrote: "I was once a member of a reading group which had some rules about what the discussants could talk about. We were confined to the text, and not allowed to bring in the surrounding culture to help ex..."I think I'm dealing with the same problem with my students nowadays. I could find several ways to attract their attention on history but I couldn't get them to read more on the subject. Tough.
I think part of the reason is that children are 'expected' to be able to read to a arbitrary level by a set age and it takes some children longer than others. If a child is pushed to read when they struggle, through dyslexia or just a lower reading age, they'll likely grow to hate it, if they're allowed to read at the speed they want, they probably won't. It's the same with everything, children might struggle with maths until they reach the right age for them and then it clicks but parents and teachers can be incredibly pushy if they feel the child isn't doing 'well'. Sometimes, it might just take finding that 'special' book which catches their interest to make them read. A friend of mine (in his 20s) never read much until a few years ago when he stumbled across an author he got on with and now he reads much more. Another thing is personalities. I never had a problem, I've always devoured books while my sister's the opposite, no specific reason she doesn't read much, she just has other things she'd rather do and doesn't enjoy it because of that, if she finds a good book that catches her interest, she reads it quickly (which usually leads to some light-hearted teasing!). We were both treated the same and both have different tastes (as evidence by the fact that she's a brillant sportswoman and I can't catch a ball from 10 paces away!)
I had been acting in college theater and thought it might be interesting to write a play. My one-act was performed. Then I wrote a story, which was thought well of by a visiting writer. But when it was suggested that maybe I ought to study the tools of my trade, and whether I liked Crime and Punishment was rather beside the point, I was impatient. Places to go, things to do. A few years later I happened to pick up Bleak House. Suddenly a whole century of books opened up. I read my way through Trollope, Eliot, Dickens, Austen, Conrad, James -- I'm disgusted now by the arrogant little twerp I was, thinking I knew -- well, never mind. My point is that the operative condition in all this was enthusiasm. My mother read me some dreadful book of archaeological claptrap. I didn't much like it then and I'd find it risible now, but she liked it, and that was good enough. So now I know something useful about certain claptrap ideas. But when Dostoevsky was recommended to me it was as a useful writer, not an interesting one -- what was missing was enthusiasm either for the book or for the thrill of knowing one's business. It was perfunctory. Farah says she can't get her students to read more history on their own -- but they've been set up. History is not a dull subject, they've learned, so that if something should come along later they have no prejudice to gt over.The original question was about hating to read -- that is not why it's boring or useless or something else, but the vehemence with which some people reject reading and likely reject also the people who do, spreading hate all around. Why do people so like to hate?
Farah wrote: "I could find several ways to attract their attention on history but I couldn't get them to read more on the subject. Tough"I don't know how you teach history, or to what age group, and this is in no way meant to be negative about how you do but... I often found history lessons at high school a bit dull, it was full of the politics behind events and the big wars and things that happened. They didn't really interest me but I love history. The thing is, I love history that is personal and tangible, the stories of the men that went to war, the people who lived in Tudor times, the documents and reports written when Jack the Ripper was on the prowl and the (admittedly a bit of a whitewash) inquest report into the sinking of the Titanic. Maybe that's what they're missing (or have been missing) and it's put them off learning more.
(Sorry for the digression from the original question!)
Charles wrote: "Why do people so like to hate? "This is how I get to like philosophy. And the philosophical questions that trigger the discussion deeper :D
Claire wrote: "I don't know how you teach history, or to what age group, and this is in no way meant to be negative about how you do but... I often found history lessons at high school a bit dull, it was full of the politics behind events and the big wars and things that happened."Me too, Claire! I felt like this job is my karma or whatsoever for hating History and my History teacher that much back then when I was in high school, but that's not the main point.
I'm teaching for middle schoolers and I occasionally held some role plays or simulations in classes just to show my students that history is actually fun to learn and in the end, they will have deeper understanding on different contexts and perspectives.
I do agree with some opinions that stated people will more likely to hate reading if they're forced to do it despite the age and conditions.
Just like Charles said, they didn't get the enthusiasm to do it on their own. That's the real challenge, to lit the enthusiasm so that they would like to explore further.
This has been a really interesting chat, but I have to go. We have found that holidays are a perfect time to go to the museum, and the one here is doing a really good show on the art of video games. A good example of just what we've been saying, methinks.Incidentally, the last time I was there was for an exhibition of contemporary Latin American art, and I fell into talk with one of the guards, who said he didn't understand this stuff. I said I thought you ought to look at it out of the side of your eye, meaning with the ancient lizard brain rather than the cerebral cortex. He seemed to find this helpful and I've been wondering since whether this might be useful generally. Philosophy, the history of the Reimann hypothesis, Agatha Christie -- you know.
Charles wrote: "Incidentally, the last time I was there was for an exhibition of contemporary Latin American art, and I fell into talk with one of the guards, who said he didn't understand this stuff. I said I thought you ought to look at it out of the side of your eye, meaning with the ancient lizard brain rather than the cerebral cortex. He seemed to find this helpful and I've been wondering since whether this might be useful generally. Philosophy, the history of the Reimann hypothesis, Agatha Christie -- you know. "Charles, you are amazing.
I can relate the word 'enthusiasm' you mentioned before with this great example on how we-adults-are more complicated compares to children.
This will more likely answer the question on why some people hate reading, or why do some people so like to hate as they grow older.
I was always several grades ahead in terms of reading, but one thing I couldn't do very well was read aloud (or follow along with others as they read aloud). I have a few issues with my eyes that were not diagnosed in childhood (dyslexia and poor depth perception being two of them). Hopefully, problems like these are identified early these days. So I could never understand why we would take turns reading aloud in class - I would skip ahead and read to myself, keeping track of where the class was so that when it was my turn I could go back to where they were and read my passage. I thought this was such a waste of time because I got much more out of it by reading on my own. When I mentioned this to others, they were surprised. I thought everyone did this (reading ahead on their own), but apparently it was only me! If I stayed reading with the class, my comprehension was much lower, so I needed to read ahead to understand the story and not get bored.
Fortunately, I had found the fun of reading on my own - if reading aloud in class had been my only experience of it, I probably would have quit.
Constant Reader
Books mentioned in this topic
The First Rule of Swimming (other topics)Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking (other topics)
Remembrance of Things Past: Volume I - Swann's Way & Within a Budding Grove (other topics)
Moby-Dick or, The Whale (other topics)
Moby-Dick or, The Whale (other topics)
Thoughts?