Literary Disco discussion
Finnegan's Wake-Up
Okay. Really busy yesterday and today. Won't post anything substantial. Just wanted to say that, somewhere about page 334, the text changes quite a bit. Between 334 and 344 the Scandinavian references become a lot rarer. Whereas before i noticed between 5 and 10 every page (i don't post all of them here), in the last 10 pages i've only caught 4. Of course, it could be that i'm just distracted by work, but i don't think so. Has anyone else noticed a change? Perhaps not in the language but in terms of the narrative. I sort of lost track of what was going on after the weather forecast on page 324.
I'm behind. It's getting embarrassing. The term started and grading first-year comp papers is getting brutal. But enough excuses! Despite my tardiness, I had to chime in with this magic from page 110: It starts with "auricular" on line 10--aural, so related to sound. Okay, cool.
Then, in quick succession, we get tympan (as in tympanic membrane? aka eardrum), Eustache Straight (eustachian tube?), conch (which is the shape of the outer ear), cunduncing (conducting...as in conducting sound? I've almost got myself convinced here).
Then, at line 19, the clincher: hummer, enville, and cstorrap--hammer, anvil, and stirrup, the common names for the three bones in our middle ears.
And, because JJ can't help himself, we also get "otological" in line 21. Otology is, predictably, the study of the ear.
I have no clue how any of this connects to the rest of what we're reading, but it seemed interesting to me, and it closely follows the "harmonic condenser enginium" hce (harmonic could also be ear/sound related), which makes me think there's something here about HCE either hearing or being heard, or failing to do one of these things... just one of a million possibilities.
Also-also, one small and belated note from the last chapter regarding the margin voices: yes, they definitely seemed to switch to me, and the switch seemed to happen immediately following the few pages absent of marginalia. My personal take on this--the original voice on the left read as drunken gibberish that occasionally struck upon a kernel relevant to the core/central text, and the original voice on the right read as academic gibberish (or discarded academic journal article titles?) that occasionally struck upon a kernel relevant to the core/central text. Does their switching show a level of interchangeability between these two things?
Okay, more to read! Just had to note the crazy ear thing.
Summing up very quickly what i noticed yesterday and today.Pg 345
We continue to read what appears to be a debate between Taff and Butt, who may be Shaun and Shem. Don't really know what the subject of this debate is, but there have been some historical references, and quite a few religious ones. For example,
"the communion of sense" - The Communion of Saints.
"foregiver of trosstpoassers" - "forgive us our trespasses" / forgiver of trespasses
"centelinnates" - saintliness
"pontifex miximhost" - Pontifex maximus. Supreme Pontiff.
Pg 346
"Vaersegood" - "Vårsogod" is how Swedes say "you're welcome", or "there you go!"
"Thingman" - A member of a Scandinavian Thing.
"Shinfine" - Sinn Feinn
Pg 347
"Sirdarthur" -Sir Arthur + Siddhartha
"Crimealian wall" - Crimean War.
"Bok of Alam" - Book of Adam?
"Crummwiliam wall" - Cromwellian War?
Pg 348
"waulholler" - Valhalla? Hall of the chosen. Where select Norse warriors go to join Odin.
Pg 350
"tree of livings in the middenst of the garerden" - The tree of life placed by god in the middle of the Garden of Eden.
Pg 352
"urssian gemenal" - Russian general
"bragadore-gunneral" - Brigadier general
"His Cumbulent Embulence" - HCE
"Russkakruscam" - Russian + Rosicrucian?
Pg 353
"Yastsar" - Yes sir! + tsar
"nyet" - No, in Russian.
"Olefoh" - Oliver? Olafur?
"Tolfoklokken" - Twelve o'clock. In Swedish they would say "klockan tolv".
"The abnihilisation of the etym" - The annihilation of the atom.
"empyreal Raum and mordern Atems" - Imperial Rome and modern Athens.
"someseat of Oldanelang's Konguerrig":
-- "someseat" - sunset + Somerset?
-- "Oldanelang's" - Old Dane lands?
-- Konguerrig - King (Danish: kong) + war (French: Guerre) + conquerring
"cromlin" - Kremlin?
Pg 354
"Faun MacGhoul" - Finn McCool.
Alright. Again, really busy. Same reason as Nicole, except my term started back in August. Deadlines approaching. Getting harder to spare the time to post here. Just thought i'd mention that from page 363 to 364 (where i stopped for the day), it seems to me that somebody (HCE? He's mentioned on 364: "hearth and chemney easy) is admitting guilt and confessing his sin, apologising?
Still catching up, but two notes:1. In my previous post, the page was 310, not 110. I'm not THAT far behind!
2. Years ago I took several Shakespeare classes with a professor who insisted that something truly important is always happening at the exact midpoint of each of S's plays... it holds true for many of them, anyway, although there are a couple I would love to go back and debate with her.
Anyway, we've had a boatload of Shakespeare references scattered throughout FW, and then I was skimming responses from the last week or two and saw Kevin saying something about page 314 being the midpoint of this text and somehow all these components got me looking at p. 314 a second time and this just about slapped me in the face:
"Bump!
Bothallchoractors...." it goes on, of course, and with a Humpty Dumpty reference in the middle ("humptadump"), and the whole thing is followed by "Did do a dive, aped one."
Also, later on this same page, we get "...luck's leap to the lad at the top of the ladder..." (line 17).
One small step backward to page 313 also reminded me that Finn himself had been on my mind right before this mid-book fall thanks to the line "(fight great finnence!)" (line 30).
So, Finn on our minds, a lad at the top of a ladder doing a dive, a bump, and a long bish-bash-bang-tumbling nonsense word? All of this points to a repeat of the fall scene from page 1 of the book.
Even more interesting (well, maybe) is that the nonsense word on page one and the nonsense word on page 314 contain the exact same number of letters--100 each. This seems unlikely to be an accident on Joyce's part.
It's interesting to me that this would happen at the exact halfway point, and it does seem important that we're so fully revisiting this moment.
Just, you know, don't ask me what it means.
Sorry I've been rubbish over the last couple of weeks - big drama on the home front. But I've been reading my Finnegans Wake and keeping an eye on the message board. Most of the bits that I've highlighted in this chapter relate to the massive number of HCEs and ALPs, multiple references to Finnegan, Finn and Finn McCool etc, wakes and humpty dumpties. I won't draw them all out as I'll only be repeating what others have already commented on.
I'm actually hating this chapter, because I just don't know what is happening. I'm getting a lot of London references though, especially the tube (London Underground trains):
"...in thathack of the bustle Bakerloo (11.32), passing the uninational thrthbosh in smoothing irony over the multinotcheralled infructuosities of his grinner set" (p348) - The Bakerloo Line is one of London Underground's main lines, running north to south. As with all tube trains it is very busy and the rails are noisy and rickety.
"mundaynism at Oldbally Court" - (p350) - The Old Bailey is a famous courthouse in London. Incidentally, love the "mundaynism" - mundane Mondays...
"While the Hersy Hunt they harrow the hill for to rout them rollicking rogues from, rule those racketeer romps from, rein their rockery rides from. Rambling. " (p355) - Harrow-on-the Hill is a town in West London and the name of a tube stop. The language here really reminds me of the Metropolitan Line which goes to Harrow - it's the oldest line on the London Underground and goes through the rolling country of "Metro Land".
"What dovely line!", "I doot my sliding panel" (both p357) and "I have remassed me, my travellingself" (p358) also feel like references to the trains of the tube to me.
All that said, I'm a commuter so I practically live on those trains. I could easily be reading references that aren't there....
There are more, but I won't go into them - two weeks' worth will take up a lot of space!
Couple of other points:
"Jacohob and Esahur" (p359) - Jacob and Esau - the biblical brothers who fought in the womb
"In sobber sooth and in souber civiles? And to the dirtiment of the curtailment of his all man?" (p353) - What a frickin' awesome line.
"Shinfine" (p346) - Sinn Fein?
"roughnow along about the first equirnarx in the cholonder" - (p347) - Equinox / calendar - astrological significance.
"cylindrical day" (p347) - cycles again
Nicole, the point you've just raised above is really interesting. I think there is a mathematical significance to this work. I just wish I knew enough about it to understand what it could be.
Going back to the Vesica Piscis and the information that Ruthiella helped me with from the first edition book... there is something else in this chapter that is also linked. I can't say what it is yet, as I need to understand it more before I do and I need to know more about James Joyce before it can make enough sense to put into words. But I believe that there is something important in this book.
Keep posting, guys. This is one hell of a ride.
Jenna x
Fist I wanted squee over the fact that Rider mentioned Jenna and Kevin on the podcast. You guys have been amazing with all your commentary.Also, time for me to confess that I'm about two weeks behind. I've been reading the book out loud-- otherwise I just tend to zone out. However, I came down with the flu and just couldn't face it. I’m back, and I’ll be reading 10 to 15 pages until I catch up.
However, reading it out loud has gotten me thinking about rhythm. Often when reading a poem that I don't understand, I rely on rhythm to carry my through. Yet one problem that I keep running into is that Joyce changes the rhythm from chapter to chapter. Most noticeably with that annotated/footnoted chapter. I suspect that Joyce is doing that on purpose. In the same way that he is complicating the actual syntax and meaning of his text, he complicating the rhythm. He not allowing any of us an easy path through the book.
Jennifer wrote: "Fist I wanted squee over the fact that Rider mentioned Jenna and Kevin on the podcast. You guys have been amazing with all your commentary."Did he? I'm curious now. Makes me want to download the episode quick.
So we're finally done with chapter II.3. I have to say i'm quite relieved. It started of well enough. I postulated a kind of Scandinavian, nautical theme, and this bore out pretty well the first 15 to 20 pages, but then i just lost the thread completely. Didn't know what was going on. Didn't even spot very many things worth noting and pointing out here.
All i can say about the latter half of chapter II.3 is that it seems to deal with HCE directly (as opposed to with ALP or the brothers). From page 355 (when things really started going downhill) to the end of the chapter on page 382, i counted 16 HCE/ECH/HEC/etc., 5 references to Finnegan, 2 references to Earwicker, 2 references to Humpty Dumpty, and 1 reference to the giant in Jack and the Beanstalk, who of course fell to his death.
There was vaguely a continuation of the nautical theme, such as references to Columbus and Magellan on page 358, and the fact that the entire chapter ends with a "stout ship Nansy Hans" sailing away down the river Liffey.
Chapter II.4 seems to begin with a nautical theme as well. There are references to Tristan and Isolde ("Muster Mark", "Trustan with Usolde", etc.), mention of a ship and of a seagull, the words "ahoy" and "fore and aft" on page 384, and so on. Shaun and Shem maybe make an appearance ("handson and huntsem"). Nothing linguistically interesting to report yet, although the "Kaempersally" on page 383 and the "sexfutter" on page 384 make me think the Scandinavian thing is making a return. Joyce has been using the vowel æ a lot to make words look Scandinavian even when they're not, and "sex" is Swedish for "six", so "six-footer", which might refer to a person or a wave?
II.4 is a relatively short chapter. Hopefully it'll be a bit easier to get through than II.3.
Jennifer wrote: "Fist I wanted squee over the fact that Rider mentioned Jenna and Kevin on the podcast. You guys have been amazing with all your commentary...."
Did he? Can't listen to it until tomorrow due to being stuck in a hotel with a sluggish 3G connection and tired mobile phone for Internet, but that's cool. Looking forward to listening to it. :)
Thank God that chapter's over! That was really hard going. Obviously we're only just entering this next chapter, but the first thing to jump out to me beyond the Trustan / Usolde element is the "big four" (p384): the four gospellers are back. Matt, Marcus, Luke and Johnny. Ie Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
And yes, oceans, waves, fish etc. Definite nautical imagery.
Looking forward to this chapter. :)
Probably because i'm so relieved to be rid of II.3 (quite unfairly, perhaps; it wasn't that bad), i managed to spot quite a bit to write about today.Pg 385
Two-tongue Common - Tutankhamen? Ancient Egyptian Pharoah. This reading supported by, on page 387, "the drowning of Pharoah and all his pedestrians and they were all completely drowned into the sea, the red sea," which is of course a reference to the crossing of the Red Sea in Exodus.
Nodderlands Nurskery - Netherlands, and nursery + norsk ("Norwegian", in the Scandinavian languages)
seatuition - sea + situation
Moreigner - mariner + foreigner
Tailor - sailor?
Dagsdogs - dagbok? "Day book" in Scandinavian. A diary of the sort a ship's captain might keep.
foremasters - A ship of four masts?
Pg 386
the hempty times and the dempty times - Humpty Dumpty. Also, A Tale of Two Cities?
Merquus - Marquis + equus? Wikipedia: a genus of animals in the family Equidae that includes horses, donkeys, and zebras.
Pg 387
Noord Amrikaans and Suid Aferican - North Americans and South Africans. Amrikaans also a reference to Afrikaans. The phrase does look like Afrikaans. Or Dutch anyway. Nord, Suid.
wolkingology - vulcanology + volk? ("people" in German. The study of people?)
"saltwater widowers" - This makes me think of sailors. Not in the sense that sailors are widowers, but that they make widows of women. Widowers: makers of widows.
Pg 388
kirked into yord - This is the kind of thing i really enjoy pulling apart. "Kirk" is "church". The Church of Scotland is informally called the Kirk, for example. And "kyrka" is Swedish for "church". "Kirk" also sounds like "kick". "Yord" sounds like "yard", but could also be "jord", which means "earth" in Swedish. The phrase "kirked into yord" could be read in several ways: "Churchyard", "Kicked into the yard", "Kicked onto the earth", "Churched into the earth", etc.
Elsker - Mentioned before. The verb "love" in Danish.
universal flood - The one in Genesis.
Cabinhogan - Copenhagen
Hedalgoland - Hidalgo (Spanish noble title) + Heligoland (Small archipelago in the North Sea, formerly Danish and British, nowadays German)
Pg 389
Ulcer, Moonster, Leanstare and Cannought - Ulster, Leinster and Connaught
Killorcure and Killthemall and Killeachother and Killkelly-on-the-Flure - This is just fun to read.
Lady Anders-daughter - Probably mentioned this before, but in old Scandinavian names you were called according to your father's given name. They still do this in Iceland. Anders' son receives the name Andersson, and Anders' daughter is called Andersdottir. There is an Amelia Andersdotter in the European Parliament. 26-year old politician from the Swedish Pirate Party. The name Andersdotter is quite unusual, i imagine, because historically it's been the "son" variant that's tended to conventionalise.
Fatima - This name has appeared before in FW, but i don't think i've mentioned it. Fatima is the name of one of Muhammad's daughters.
Day 77Hey! Listened to Lit Disco’s latest ep. Very cool to get a mention, Rider - thanks!
Okay... so the four Gospel authors are clearly playing a big part here. We are being continually reminded of the significance of the fact that there are four:
“before the four of them” (p385), “all the four”, “truly they were four” (p386), “the four of us” (p387).
I'm interested to see how this evolves throughout the chapter.
Humpty Dumpty... “the hempty times and the dempty times” (p386)... is so frequently mentioned. Is it solely to do with falling? or the name Humphrey? Surely if that was the case, the point would have been made by now! Why is Humpty Dumpty such a significant theme? I am curious....
Something I have been noticing since day 40, but have not yet mentioned is an apparent thematic reference to the phrase: “tinker tailor soldier sailor”.
I first spotted it on page 202 (that’s not to say it hadn’t appeared in one of its forms prior to that): “Tinker, tilar, souldrer, salor...”
And since then there have been numerous references to tinkers and tailors and soldiers and, well, sailors. Especially a tailor. I’ve decided to finally mention it because it is still happening. “Tilly the Tailor’s Tugged a Tar...” (p385). I get the sense that one of the characters is a tailor.
Trinity College has also been mentioned rather a lot in the last few chapters, today on page 386. The Trinity College that first springs to mind is Cambridge, but I think there is one of the same name in Dublin too. Page 388 mentions Queens College (Cambridge) also.
“to the oceanfuls of collegians green and high classes and the poor scholars and all the old trinitarian senate and saints...” (p388) could be describing Cambridge - there are lots of green parks named after colleges and there is certainly an academic elitism here. Being a Cambridge City girl who did not attend the university (I went in London) I certainly find these words relatable, (and FW has also mentioned the local Gogmagog Hills) but may just be seeing what I want to see, seeing as Cambridge is my home town and I am rather enamoured to it.
Favourite line: “... in the fair fine night, whilst the stars shine bright, by she light of he moon, we longed to be spoon, before her honeyoldloom....” (p385) - I love it for its rhyme and rhythm, and for its question on gender (“SHE light of HE moon”). There is something very powerful in this concept: the relationship between male and female, paralleled in the relationship between the moon and light. In addition to a comment on the femininity of untouchable light and the masculinity of the also-largely-untouchable, or unreachable (at least at the time of writing) lunar rockiness, I think the significance is is in the balance / symbiosis. They are so different, yet complement each other perfectly. One could not exist without the other. (Interestingly, the moon is frequently linked to womanhood - three stages: maiden, mother, crone; new, half, full, so it is fascinating to see it in a masculine setting here).
But the main reason I love this line is because it is clearly referencing the nursery rhyme ‘Hey Diddle Diddle’, where a cow uses the moon as a high jump and some cutlery and dinnerware get it on...
Kevin, that "kirked into yord" analysis above is awesome. I could never interpret this to that level - I have neither the skill nor the knowledge. Your presence on this board really makes the genius of FW visible to ordinary people like me! So, thank you.
Happy next five, all! :)
Predictably, I'm still catching up (but getting there!), but the prevalence of Humpty Dumpty has been perplexing me as well. I haven't sought textual support for this yet, but could his (its?) presence be political? After all, one of the more prominent features of the rhyme is the failure of the king's impressive resources in putting hd together again. Or is the king in this case a metaphor for... I don't know, really. The head of this messy household, hce, perhaps? It's bordering on torture to write a text this deliberately inaccessible! Yet we keep reading...
Jenna wrote: "Kevin, that "kirked into yord" analysis above is awesome. I could never interpret this to that level - I have neither the skill nor the knowledge. Your presence on this board really makes the genius of FW visible to ordinary people like me! So, thank you."You're welcome! I'm really glad people are finding some of the stuff i'm writing interesting, because most of the time i have no idea what i'm reading. Haha.
Just a few things today. Nothing particularly interesting, but maybe it'll give somebody else some ideas?
Pg 391
Hohannes - Johannes = John
giamonds courseway - Giant's Causeway
Spasms of Davies - Psalms of David. Can't help but be amused by the image.
Pg 393
old konning Soteric Sulkinbored - Old Kind Cedric ?Something?. Also, "esoteric", "sulking" and "bored".
Bargomuster Bart - Burgomeister Bart. A burgomeister is master of a burg. A mayor, perhaps.
shims and shawls week - Shem and Shaun?
Gallstonebelly - Glastonbury, Somerset.
Pg 394
good old Foehn again - Finnegan
fourmasters - four-master ship again
athroposophia - wisdom concerning spiders? Or if we add an 'n' in there, anthroposophia = wisdom concerning man?
In the latter third of page 394 there is suddenly a dense cluster of words that are either in Scandinavian (perhaps Latin or Greek as well? Not as familiar with these languages), or aren't but look like they might be, from the orthography:
"Engravakon saga" might be an old Norse saga. I don't know one with that name, but "Engravakon" puts in mind some Scandinavian names. Engelbrekt. Haakon.
"katte efter kinne". "Katte efter..." is "cat after...". Don't know what "kinne" is, but it looks Scandinavian anyway, that -ne suffix.
"Earl Hoovedsoon". "Huvud" is "head" or "chief". So "huvudstad" = "capital city", for example. The construction "???-son" is an old Scandinavian patrilineal naming convention. Mentioned this before.
"allimmanence". Reference to the Alamanni tribe? Germanic tribe, from which we get the French word for Germany, "Allemagne". Also, immanence is apparently a metaphysical concept with roots in Greek Philosophy. Didn't know this. Had to google it.
Before i go on, i thought i should say that i'm probably going to start tomorrow on page 403, instead of 400. Page 399, which we finish on today, is the last page in the chapter, and the last page in book II. Pages 400, 401, and 402 are blank, and so shouldn't count, i don't think.Alright. Onward! Not very much to note today. I'm mostly only good for the Scandinavian references, and there haven't been many in this chapter.
Pg 395
ovenfor, nedenfor, dinkety, duk - "ovanför" and "nedanör" are "above" and "below" in Swedish, respectively.
the narcolepts on the lakes of Coma - Really like this phrase.
Pg 396
A mot for amot - "mot" is French for "word". A word for a word? Doesn't really make sense?
psocoldlogical - psychological
orangogran - Orangutan? Indonesian great ape.
tootwolly torrific - A lot of this chapter was written in an accent i suspect is probably Irish, although i can't be sure, because i'm not so familiar with it. But this example here caught my eye anyway.
Pg 397
Caxons the Conswarn - Coxswain? Person in charge of navigation on a boat or a ship. Only know this because i did my national service in the navy.
Amensch - Amen + Mensch (German: Human being)
phlegmish hoopicough - Flemish whooping cough. Is there such a thing?
Pg 398
Gowan, Gawin and Gonne - goin', goin', gone
Fionnachan sea - Finnegan
Iseult la bell! Tristan sad hero, hear! - Back to Tristan and Isolde again.
The Lambeg drum, the Lomboog reed, the Lumbag fiferer, the Limibig brazenaze - There is evidently some kind of pattern going on here. Don't know what i can make of it. The best i can come up with is Lohengrin, another opera by Wagner.
Pg 399
Mattheehew, Markeehew, Lukeehew, Johnheehewheehew - The authors of the four gospels of the canon, which Jenna pointed out. Too obvious here not to mention. Don't know what to make the the -hew syllables at the end of each.
Okay, here is where I admit how far behind I am (although trying, truly, to get caught up this weekend):Reading right now, and was thoroughly perplexed by the whole Taff/Butt dialogue. Then, at the bottom of page 342, there is this: "Tipp and Bett, our swapstick quackchancers, in From Topphole to Bottom of The Irish Race and World."
Huh. Okay. So, Tipp and Bett seemed to be Taff and Butt to me, and Butt seemed pretty naturally to be a bottom-y name, but I didn't know what to make of Taff, so looked it up. Interestingly, it is a river in Wales that was re routed in the 19th century to run through a place called Bute Park, formerly the grounds of Cardiff Castle. Not the connection I was expecting, but it seemed notable nonetheless. Thank you, Wikipedia.
Onward.
Day 79I enjoyed the pun on page 396 linking the Genesis story with sheep.
"What would Ewe do?" - Ewe = you / female sheep / Eve?
"With that so tiresome old milkless a ram..." - ram = male sheep
"Since Edem was in the boags noavy." - Edem = Adam / Eden?
But what struck me most about today is the thematic progression throughout the pages: lust - sexual ecstasy - love - domestication - lethargy - exhaustion - entrapment - illness - rotting - death.
No idea what to make of it, if indeed a comment on the cycle of life is intended, but I found it powerful nevertheless.
Very varied mix of languages in today's 5 pages, which is quite unlike most of the recent chapters, where one of two languages seem to dominate at a time. German does stick out a bit, but there's definitely some French and Scandinavian as well. Maybe some Latin or Italian.Pg 403
Hark!
Tolv two elf kater ten (it can't be) sax.
Hork!
Pedwar pemp foify tray (it must be) twelve. - Series of numbers? 12 (Swedish 'tolv'), 2, 11 (Swedish 'elva'), ???, 10, 6 (Swedish 'sex')... ???, 5 (German 'fünf'), 50, 3 (Swedish 'tre'), 12
Pensée - French for 'thought'
veilch veilchen veilde - Sounds German. Not sure what it means. Veilchen is "violet", but this might be besides the point.
zero hour... midnight's chimes... church tolling... - I get the sense that the chapter is opening with a night-time scene. Somebody is being awoken by the ringing of some church bells. Hence the "hark!" right at the start. Th string of numbers might be somebody mumbling in his sleep.
Pg 404
Shaun! Shaun! Post the post! - Shaun the postman is back. Is he the one being awoken?
Or for royal, Am for Mail, R.M.D. - "R for Royal, M for Mail". The D perhaps stands for "Dublin"?
Pg 405
letters, relayed wand postchased - More references to the post. Also, postchased = posthaste.
Taraoe - Truro, in Cornwall? Totally guessing here.
jehovial - Jehova + jovial
Pg 406
Some kind of meal seems to be going on on page 406. Lots of references to food. Breakfast, maybe?
eyer and becon - "Eier" is "eggs" in German.
Vanhungrig - van Hungrig sounds like a Dutch name, e.g. van Gogh. "Hungrig" is "hungry" in German.
Pg 407
lecker - "Tasty" in German.
Days 80 & 81Wow.
I’m a reader and a writer, a film-lover and - in forgotten days - an actress. All of that for one reason: characters. For me, it is ALL about the characters.
That is why I am completely compelled by chapters like this one, which paints vivid images of people and where they are in life. Like the chapters on ALP and Shem, this chapter is, so far, invigorating to read.
We start with an introduction to Shaun and the return of previous metaphors associated with the twins: light and dark; high and low; angel imagery.
There’s a lot to comment on in relation to Shaun. He is physically beautiful, even in “proper person” (p405) “And I pledge by the hundred and sixty odds rods and cones [eyes] of this even’s vision that young fellow looked the stuff, the Bel ofBeaus’ Walk” (p405) has a “high”, angelic voice as “pure as a church-mode” (p409).
But he seems to be characterised by two significant qualities:
First, he is dull:
“Yet one minute’s observation, dear dogmestic Shaun, as we point out how you have while away painted our town a wearing greenridinghued” (p411)
“greenridinghued” - a pun on Red Riding Hood, suggesting that at the very most, Shaun has ‘painted the town green’, as opposed to the traditionally wild ‘painting the town red’.
Second, he is in the throes of a transition that repulses him:
“not what I wants to do a strike of work but it was condemned on my premitially be Hireark Books and Chiefoverseer Cooks in their Eusebian Concordant Homilies [ECH = HCE] and there does be a power coming over me that is put upon me from on high out of the book of breedings and so as it is becoming hairydittary [hereditary].... A bad attack of maggot it feels like.” (p410)
It seems that he is being coerced to work as a postman (having been “too soft for work proper” (p410)), but in addition is exhibiting impulses also shown by his father HCE. Immediately after this line, Shaun goes on to say that he has been “keeping out of crime” (unlike HCE). This makes me wonder if Shaun will in the coming pages commit a crime. If it is like HCE’s crime, it will be sexual and possibly incestuous. Or, as with ALP’s letter and HCE’s crime, we may never find out!
This transition Shaun is undergoing seems to be igniting something within him. It seems that while he is initially shrouded in darkness (“so shy of light was he then... The gloom hath rays” (p411)) he is becoming fiery (“Shaun the fiery boy shouted, naturally incensed, as he shook the red pepper out of his auricles [heart]” (p412)).
Maybe he will eventually paint the town red after all?
Many people have commented that this books is supposed to be a dream. A few dream images occur in this chapter so far:
“And as I was jogging along in a dream as dozing I was dawdling” (p404) - Incidentally, GREAT LINE!
“Who we dreamt was a shaddo, sure, he’s lightseyes, the laddo!” (p404). Interestingly, this also links in with a concept suggested on page 405, the differences and similarities between the Shaun of dreams or imagination and the real Shaun in “proper person”
“When look, was light and now’twas as flasher, now moren as the glaow.” In addition to the light / dark imagery associated with the twins, this rings back to Genesis: “Let there be light!”
“New worlds for all!” (p412) ties in with a point Kevin raised some weeks ago about the end of an era / age. One ends and another begins.
Favourite line: “and it was when you and they were we” (p403). This is amazing. It highlights the interchangeability of characters and identity.
Jenna :)
Pages 418 to 427 today.Pg 418
impfang - "Empfang". German. A reception, or a welcome. Was reluctant to call this interpretation, until i encountered "marhaba" a few lines down, which also means "welcome", in Arabic.
merd such a nauses - made + merde (French for shit)
he would mixplace his fauces - he would misplace his feces + fauces (apparently a part of mouth)
Pg 419
In the name of the former and of the latter and of their holocaust. Allmen. - In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, Amen.
Corneywall - Cornwall, England.
Lettrechaun - Lettre (French for "letter") + Leprechaun
His Christian's Em - HCE
I'm as afterdusk nobly Roman as pope - Shaun claims to be after all as Roman as the Pope?
Oscan wild - Oscar Wilde
Otherman or off the Toptic - Ottoman? Does "Toptic" refer to another civlisation? Can't think of any that would fit.
Pg 420
Comme bien, Comme bien! Feefeel! Feefeel! - Combien, combien! Wie viel! Wie viel! "How much" in French, then German.
We then have a letter carried by Shaun, written by Shem, addressed to ALP, and perhaps HCE as well, here referred to as Hek. It seems the letter got rather lost. We see a string of words that look like a series of addresses or place names.
Pg 421
Sender. Boston (Mass). - Is Shem in Boston?
HeCitEncy - HCE
Pg 422-424
Throughout these three pages it seems to me Shaun is accusing Shem of either doing terrible things, or being terrible things. At the end of the final paragraph on pg 424 he accuses Shem specifically of plagiarism, which i seem to remember he has done before.
Every dimmed letter in it is a copy and not a few of the silbils and wholly words I can show you in my Kingdom of Heaven. The lowquacity of him! With his threestar monothong! Thaw! The last word in stolentelling! And what's more rightdown lowbrown schisthematic robblemint!
Digteter! Grundtsagar! - Both words look like Scandinavian. The first one probably isn't actually Scandinavian, although it has the form of a Swedish plural noun. It's "dictator". The second word looks like a Swedish finite verb, and it very well might be one. "Grund" means "basic", while "sagar" looks liked "sägar", which means "say".
Helpless Corpses Enactment - HCE
demonican - Dominican + demon
root language - Nice, because it sounds like "rude language", but "root" also gives the sense of base language.
Pg 426
Shaun seems to break down into tears on this page, and then becomes too tired to talk any further ("hoo hleepy hor halk urthing hurther").
Pg 427
The chapter opens with somebody lying in bed in the middle of the night, entering into a dream, which turns out to be some kind of dialogue between Shaun and an unidentified person or group of person. Now the dream ends.
... he spoorlessly disappaled and vanesshed, like a popo down a papa, from circular circulatio. Ah, mean!
Gaogaogaone! Tapaa!
spoorlessly - "spur" is German for "track", as in "train track". The same word in Norwegian is "spor", in Swedish is "spår". Image here is of somebody moving along a discernable track or line.
disappaled and vanesshed - disappeared and vanished
Ah, mean! - Amen!
Gaogaogaone! - Goin', goin', gone!
This is immediately followed by "And the stellas were shinings" ("And all the stars were shining"), which signals to us that we're out of the dream, back in the night time scene that began the chapter.
The narrator calls Shaun "mine Bruder, able Shaun". "Mein Bruder" is German for "my brother", quite transparently. "Able" could be a reference to "Abel" in the Bible. Is Shem the dreamer then?
Days 82 & 83There is an element of temporal significance:
“Time Timeagen, Wake!” (p415) - This links back to Finnegans Wake, but the ‘time and time again’ feel adds to the feeling of time and events within this story being cyclical and repeating.
“He took a round stroll and he took a stroll round and he took a round strollagain...” (p416) - repetitive language which calls attention to the word ‘round’ - ie circular, loop, infinite etc etc. This is followed by the word “twicycled”, which could be broken down to mean ‘three cycles’, supporting the three strolls and also the notion of 3 as a significant number in this text.
“Why can’t you beat time?” (p419) - an age old question!
This chapter also continues to build a picture of Shaun and his relevance as a character of psychology.
First of all, who is the narrator? This chapter is a dialogue between Shaun and somebody else. This character seems to know Shaun well, be tender towards him, whilst challenging him. Also, in addressing him, accompanies his name with a complimentary adjective: “dear Shaun” (p409), “honest Shaun” (p410), “Shaun honey” (p410), “Kind Shaun,” (p421), “Shaun illustrious” (p422). It makes me wonder if Shaun is viewed by this person as the angel he has so far been depicted as, or if he has an ego in need of continual massage!
Shem is mentioned a few times, and the ambivalence between the brothers is clear. Also clear is the note of fracture within the family and Shaun’s ill-feeling towards his father.
“... read the strangewrote anaglyptics of those shemletters patent for His Christian’s Em?” (p419)
“Mr Unmentionable” (p420)
“HeCitEncy! Your words grates on my ares.” (p421)
“thinking himself to death. Rot him!” (p422)
I keep finding myself drawn back to the analogy of light and consciousness. (darkness = unconscious self; light = conscious self) and how this is used in relation to the twins.
“sootynemm” (p420) - soot = dark
“vigorously rubbing his magic lantern to a glow of full consciousness.” (p421). The progression of light in relation to Shaun in this chapter has altered. I wonder if his journey through the realms of consciousness - sleep - unconscious resentment / fantasy etc - engaging with reality etc
“when he was not making spaces in his psyche” (p416) - draws attention to the significance of psychology.
I am delighted to have some light shed on the letter - I agree with Kevin that it appears that Shaun gets lost with it.
A few other thoughts:
“O moy Bog” (p416) - Anthony Burgess’s ‘A Clockwork Orange’ used ‘Bog’ in place of ‘God’ in the language of the droogs. I know Burgess has written about Finnegans Wake but I’ve not read any of it. Possibly a source of inspiration here?
“Oscan wild” (p419) - Oscar Wilde
HCEs - There are number of HCEs in this chapter and it occurs to me that very rarely is HCE referred to as ‘HCE’. It is usually encrypted, hidden, opaque. What does this tell us about him as a character? What does this tell us about his family’s perception of him?
Favourite line: “... had jingled through a jungle of love and debts and jangled through a jumble of life in doubts afterworse...” (p416)
It's actually day 84 here in UK now, but I haven't read the five pages yet. Will post again (!) later.
Jenna wrote: "It's actually day 84 here in UK now, but I haven't read the five pages yet. Will post again (!) later."Speaking of time and of loops, it occurs to me we kind of form a loop ourselves. Between Rider on the American west coast, you in the UK, and me in Southeast Asia (I don't know where Nicole and the others are), we wrap around the world temporally, almost. It's like we're playing a game of time zone tag. All we need is somebody in Hawaii. Is Nicole in Hawaii? =P
Nicole wrote: "Even more interesting (well, maybe) is that the nonsense word on page one and the nonsense word on page 314 contain the exact same number of letters--100 each. This seems unlikely to be an accident on Joyce's part."Just in case there was any doubt as to the significance of this....
“The hundredlettered name again, last word of perfect language” (p424) follows another example of one of these crazy, long words. The fact that it is 100 letters is clearly intentional and significant!
So... Days 84 & 85
A reference to Shem as Shaun’s reflection on page 423 caught my attention - amidst more Shem-bashing from Shaun. It is clear throughout the entire chapter that every thing he says about his brother is an admonishment, but I cannot get away from the idea that the twins as a reflection of each other is significant.
The vibe I am now getting of Shaun is that he is something of a paradox. On one hand, he is soft and nervous, dull “shy of light” (p411) and on the other, “fiery” (p412), “hottempered” (p426). In the eyes of the narrator, he is “grossly unselfish” (p426), and yet he seems to consider himself some kind of deity (“I can show you in my Kingdom of Heaven” (p424), “I will commission to the flames....” (p426)). This brings to light the importance of remembering that we are not working from the comments of an omniscient narrator, but corruptible perspectives of individuals. Also, despite the gyring and disorientating language, these characters are three-dimensional. Shaun’s gait is described as a “slipashod motion, surefoot, sorefoot....” (p426) - These are the imperfections and contradictions of a real person.
I feel sorry for Shaun, whose “grief had usupped [usurped?] every smile” (p426). And yes, it does appear that he breaks down with emotion and cries, “overpowered by the love of the tearsilver that he twined through her hair for” (p426). I’m guessing that the dialogue has been between him and his sister, Izzy, though I’m not sure if she’s been named. What’s clear to me is that these two love each other. Perhaps there is a complication in their relationship? He seems to respond negatively to the love.
“a heart like Montgomery’s in his slowchest and harvey loads of feeling in him and as innocent and undesignful as the freshfallen calef.” (p426) - Does anyone have any thoughts on what “Montgomery” might refer to and as such, what does that say about Shaun’s heart?
So this chapter ends with Shaun departing on a river, leaving a loved one who will “miss [his] smile” (p427).
And then we have Jaunty Jaun. Obviously Shaun again. Izzy is significant again. Let’s see where this takes us....
Other comments:
“Jon Jacobson” (p424) Jon = English name for Shaun; Jacob = warring twin
“rapes the pad off his lock” (p423) - as well as ‘padlock’, this references Alexander Pope’s poem, ‘The Rape of the Lock’, where a minor incident of involuntary hair-cutting gets the literary treatment of an epic war.
Something I’ve been noticing throughout the whole novel, but have not mentioned, is the frequency in which lung-ailments are mentioned. Hooping Cough, TB, chesty cough etc. It occurs again on page 423 in “whooping laugh”.
“from circular circulation.” (p427) - again again again....
“oliphants” (p427) - The Hobbit word for Mumakil!
Favourite word: “footinmouther” (p424)
Kevin wrote: "Speaking of time and of loops, it occurs to me we kind of form a loop ourselves. Between Rider on the American west coast, you in the UK, and me in Southeast Asia (I don't know where Nicole and the others are), we wrap around the world temporally, almost. It's like we're playing a game of time zone tag. "You're right! And that's really cool. It's a bit like the "present future past" quotations all through Finnegans Wake. It's all very elegant.
And if you really want to draw parallels with the text and ourselves - we are all there by name as well (at least, abbreviations / variations of our names). Kev, jenny (Jennifer and I can share this one), Nic, Ruth and rider (as a name / proper noun! - page 313 - "according to rider"), Jane and Don are all there. Haven't found a Tyson, Greta or a Stephanie yet, but there are still 200 pages to go. Apologies if I missed anyone...
:)
Day 86“Where it is nobler in the main to supper than the boys and errors of outrager’s virtue.” (p434) - ‘Whether 'tis Nobler in the mind to suffer The Slings and Arrows of outrageous Fortune’ - Hamlet Act III sc1
“Mr Whicker whacked a great fall.” (p434) - Humpty Dumpty - Mr Earwicker - HCE. This is followed by another 'egg' reference.
“pneumonia” is mentioned on page 434 - see my comments made yesterday.
Enjoy the next five.
I am so close to caught up! Tomorrow is the magic day. Passing page 420 tonight before bed, maybe 425. Anyway, a couple of notes:
I love the phrase "time zone tag." I'm American West Coast, same time zone as Rider, so don't add much to the loop there...although, what day are we scheduled to finish this wild ride? If we're about 6 weeks out, I actually will be in Hawaii for the grand finale. It feels like we're moving a little faster than that, though, so I have a funny feeling we'll be done before then. That would have been nice timing, though...
All the humpty dumpty is getting to me a bit, and now I think of good old HD every time there's an eggs and bacon reference (back to feeding the dead to the living?)
Settling in with Shaun, who I'm strangely happy to see again, and his letter ("post the post" on p. 404). Excited to catch up (finally, again), and hope to post something with more substance tomorrow. Until then, enjoy the reading!
Nicole wrote: "I love the phrase "time zone tag." I'm American West Coast, same time zone as Rider, so don't add much to the loop there...although, what day are we scheduled to finish this wild ride? If we're about 6 weeks out, I actually will be in Hawaii for the grand finale. It feels like we're moving a little faster than that, though, so I have a funny feeling we'll be done before then. That would have been nice timing, though..."Sorry guys. Been a bit busy. Need to catch up. Might post something tomorrow.
According to the maths (or "math", i guess you guys would say), we finish 5 weeks and a day from now. That's Monday 2 Dec.
Nicole - re Humpty Dumpty - Yes, me too! I like your idea that it may be political. I just resorted to good old Wilkipedia and one of the theories put forward is that Humpty Dumpty is King Richard III. HCE was referred to as a King in the trial chapter. Or, maybe it’s something to do with irreparable fractures? HCE couldn’t be put back together again...? Or... there are so many ‘egg’ references that maybe it’s to do with character imagery and HCE as a slightly farcical character? There’s also an interesting theory regarding a cannon in Colchester. HCE does strike me as a destructive character. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humpty_D...Kevin - Five weeks? Is that all? Actually that makes me feel quite sad. I sort of don’t want this to be over. I’ve so enjoyed the process - reading challenging material as a team with such bright, insightful people. :(
So..... Days 87 & 88
What a disturbing chapter this is. I may be reading this wrong, but the story I am getting from it is that Shaun / Jaun now enters the corrupted world of incest and violence. The language is brusque and sexually aggressive.
It also seems that Shaun / Jaun is making threats, warning his sister not to tell, and threatening another man (Charley?):
“Dear Sister.... keep it to yourself that we, Jaun, first of our name here now make all receptacles of free of price.” (p439)
“He’s a markt man from that hour.” (p442)
“I’ll not be complete in fighting lust until I contrive to half kill your Charley you’re my darling for you and send him to Home Surgeon Hume” (p443)
The language on pages 444 and 445 descends into threats of sexual violence:
“I’ll smack your fruitflavoured lips” (p444)
“... that will bring the poppy blush of shame to your peony hundmost till you yelp papapardon and radden your rhodatantarums to the beat of colarrubordolor” (p445) - flushing / bruising / reddening flower imagery - “papapardon” includes “papa” - father?
“Lights our now (bouf!)” (p445) - Is “bouf” the onomatopoeic sound for a punch that would knock someone unconscious (lights out - into the darkness - shadow)?
The verbs are all in the future tense. ‘I WILL do this, I WILL do that’. I keep getting the feeling that these words are an outpouring of fantasy, tainted by the sourness of guilt and self-loathing.
“whorable state of affairs” (p438)
There is something truly uncomfortable about whatever it is that is happening - a physical bodily reaction...
“I feel spirts of itchery outching out from all over me...” (p439)
There is a clear distinction being drawn between love and lust:
“The pleasures of love last but a fleeting but the pledges of life outlusts a lifetime.” (p444) -
If this detail is between Shaun and his own sister, it might be highlighting the fact that love can be... fickle, but lust can be condemning. It's interesting... typically love is communicated as long-lasting, and lust as brief and superficial. This lines seems to suggest the opposite.
The language softens around page 446 and becomes more focused on sexual pleasure:
“Sevenheavens, O heaven! Iy waount yiou!” (p446) - the distortion / elongation of the words suggest these words might be uttered or felt in the throes of pleasure.
“let me see your isabellis” (p446) - intimacy - let me see the real you? Links in with “Knowme” (p446).
Other thoughts:
“...set up by Gill the father, put-out by Gill the son and circulating dismally at Gillydehooly’s Cost.” (p440) - as well as a take on ‘God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost,’ this covers a cyclical pattern: ‘setting up - putting out’. The phrase ‘circulating dismally’ implies that this pattern will continue: creating, dismantling, creating, dismantling, creating etc.
“Egg laid by Former Cock...” (p440) - Eggs on walls, breaking shells....
Page 440 mentions a tailor (see previous comments re tinkers and tailors and soldiers and sailors).
“Peterborough” (p442) - An English city near Cambridge.
More cough related references - “stale cough” (p444) and a pun on “coughin” [coffin?] (p444)
“Explain why there is such a number of orders of religion in Asea! Why such an order number in preference to any other number? Why any number in any order at all?” (p447). This, I think, is addressing two aspects. The conflicts of religious opposition and the importance of numbers in religion and in general. Not sure what “Asea” might refer to. Asia? A sea (ie body of water, which brings us back to sacred geometry and the Vesica Piscis)? Or perhaps someone with linguistic knowledge (lookin’ at you, Kevin!) might be able to shed some light?
Jenna: Yeah, just 5 weeks. =( I was thinking, after Finnegans Wake, i'll probably move on to another notoriously-challenging book that i've been putting off reading. Haven't yet decided which book, but i have a copy of Moby Dick that's been on my shelf for years, crying out to be read.Not sure if i have anything linguistic to add re: "Asea", unfortunately. But, there are the Æsir, the Norse gods, who have been mentioned numerous times before in FW. "Æsir" could be "Asea"? That said, "Asia" might work a bit better here. There are a lot of religions in Asia, and i vaguely remember reading that the presence of such a diversity of non-Christian, non-Abrahamic religions in Asia did pose a difficult question to Christian scholars in Europe at one time. Because they were so different, they couldn't easily be construed as mere corruptions of the one true religion.
Anyway, i'm getting only a very vague sense of what is happening in this chapter. Juan/Shuan encounters 29 girls (who are the 29 days of February "once-upon-a-four year", pg. 430), and delivers some kind of speech to them.
As Jenna pointed out there's something sexually deviant going on. Jenna provides a lot of reasons for thinking so. Here's one more: Pg 435, "Secret satieties and onanymous letters". The Sin of Onan refers to sexual sins, particularly masturbation. I think Jenna hinted at Shuan's sister's involvement, and i agree with this as well: Pg 444, "Lonely went to play your mother, isod?" Isod = Isolde/Iseult?
On Pg 448, i found this "My tippers of flags are knobs of hardshape for it isagrim tale." And it is. Pretty grim. Jenna mentioned coughing, and pneumonia. I think Juan/Shuan is sick. Or at least in an impoverished state where he's likely to fall sick.
At the start of Pg 452 we read "hedrolics in the coold amstophere till the borting that would perish the Dane." - Hydrolics in the cold atmosphere in the morning would perish the Dane. Juan/Shuan is the Dane, and he's falling ill because of the cold morning drafts.
At the end of the same page, "For i declare to Jeshuam I'm beginning to get sunsick. I'm not half Norawain for nothing." Same thing. "half Norawain" = half-Norwegian.
Between 449 and 451 there are lots of references to birds and to river life:
Pg 449:
throstles and choughs - thrushes and choughs. A Chrough is apparently a kind of bird. Also, "cough".
owledclock - owl
Grouseus - grouse
Also, pheasants, foxes, and trout.
Pg 450:
otther shoes - otters
beavery - beavers
minnowahaw - minnows
MacEels - eel
carpers - carp
sturgeone - sturgeon
pike and pie - pike
L'Alouette - French for "lark". Remember the French-Canadian nursery rhyme?
naughtingerls - nightingales
blackbudds - blackbirds
And the lark that i let fly (olala!) is as cockful of funantics... - lark, cock
Pg 451:
one man's fish and a dozen men's poisson - fish... poisson (French for "fish")
By the unsleeping Solman Annadromus, ye god of little pescies - salmon... pisces (Latin for "fish")
I'd axe the channon and leip a liffey and drink annyblack water that rann onme way - the rivers Shannon and Liffey in Ireland. Blackwater is waste water.
Day 89.OK - I’m a day behind. I will catch up tomorrow hopefully, but just wanted to quickly jump on the board with a couple of observations about today’s... well, yesterday’s... reading.
Page 448
“... topcoated with kakes of slush occasioned by the mush jam of the cross and blackwalls...” - Crosse and Blackwell - UK food brand who make jam.
Few mentions of British cities: “l’pool” - Liverpool; “m’chester” - Manchester; “brighton” - Brighton
Another mention of Jacob - “Jacobus” (p449)
Page 450 interests me from a musical perspective. In addition to open musical references: “musicall”, “forte”, “pianage” and of course: “cadge me off the key”, there is the quote: “my g.b.d. in my f.a.c.e.”.
These letters refer to the notes on a stave. On the bass clef, G, B, D, F, A sit on the lines, and on the treble clef, the notes F, A, C, E sit in the spaces. I could bang on about music theory and keys and chords, but I’m not entirely sure of the intended angle to this text, so I will leave it at that for now.
Favourite word: “disasperaguss” (p448) - for so many reasons.
:)
Reading 458 to 462 today.Beginning "-- Meesh, meesh, yes, pet." on page 457, we seem to be reading a letter, addressed to Juan/Shuan. I'm basing this on what appears to be a request that Juan/Shuan reply, on page 458:
"Of course, please too write, won't you, and leave your little bag of doubts, inquisitive, behind you unto your utterly thine, and, thank you, forward it back by return pigeon's pneu..."
"Pneu" may be short for "pneumatic". At the turn of the century pneumatic pipes were an important means of "last mile" delivery. Mail could be sent efficiently between cities, but within a city it was expensive and time-consuming delivery mail to specific addresses. Pneumatic tubes were used to deliver mail between central post offices and major buildings to make this process a bit easier.
The sender also seems to be requesting that Juan/Shuan meet her. Page 460:
"...meet me after by next appointment near you know Ships just there beside the Ship at the future poor fool's circuts of lovemountjoy square..."
"...Listen, here I'll wait on thee till Thingavalla with beautiful do be careful teacakes..."
"Thingavalla" might be a reference to Þingvellir, mentioned before in the book. This is the site of the world's first parliament, in Iceland. Beautiful place.
Finally, on page 461, Juan/Shuan responds:
"-- MEN! Juan responded fullchantedly to her sororal sonority, imitating himself capitally with his bubbleblown in his patapet and his chalished drink now well in hand."
This is why i thought it was a woman writing the letter. At first i thought "MEN!" might be "BUT!" in Swedish, rather than plural for "man" in English. Nothing seems to indicate that Juan/Shuan's response is any kind of rejection or protest, though, so i'm probably wrong there. Still, worth noting.
Other linguisticky/otherwise-interesting things:
Page 459:
solve qui pu - "sauve qui peut" in French. Has appeared before in the book. Basically equivalent to "every man for himself!" in English. Literally, "save (himself), he who can".
I will long long to betrue you along with one who will so betrue you that not once while I betreu him not once well he be betray himself. Can't you understand? - This bit is fascinating. In Middle English we have the word "betreuthe", which means "to promise" or "to pledge". It's where we get the contemporary English word "betroth". Juxtaposed here with "betray", which is, of course, the exact opposite.
loveliletter - Lovely letter + loveletter.
Page 460:
Jungfraud - Young fraud + Carl Jung & Sigmund Freud. Latter supported by "m'm'ry's leaves" and "dream telepath" in the same sentence?
I'll be the mort of him! - I'll be the death of him!
hearz'waves - Heinrich Hertz, known for his work on electromagnetic waves.
Page 462:
jackless jill - A single woman?
penumbrella - penumbra? I love this word. It refers to that part of a shadow that remains partially lit. Look it up, you'll see what i mean. I wrote a haiku about this phenomenon when i was 16, which i've since both lost and forgotten, but just thinking about it gives me all sorts of romantic feelings about science and the natural world.
Your page numbers are for 30 October, Kevin...right? If not, I'm a bit farther behind than I thought. Not terribly behind anymore, thanks to some weekend FW reading sprints, but I'm only on page 450 right now. I'm guessing I should end today (29 October for me) on 457 and tomorrow on 462. Is this correct?I'm a little sad to know this strange and wonderful literary adventure is ending so soon, as well! I can't imagine what book could truly follow this beast as far as complexity and the need for this community/discussion in order to process it (even partially) goes.
Reading. I've been wondering for the last 40 or so pages...is Shaun exploring different characters, being different versions of himself? We get his dull, somewhat professorial side in the previous chapter, then his angry rant against Shem, then his creepily affectionate discussion that seems to be aimed at Izzy (Isolde?), and then the sexually violent bits (which seem aimed at women in general? Or are these still specific to Izzy? There's definitely guilt and possessiveness in them...)
Anyway, the point is that these different versions of him are disparate enough to be jarring coming from a single character. Together, they leave me feeling he is either somewhat mentally unstable or else putting on different "Shauns" for different occasions.
Also, who is asking him questions? They almost seem to be the questions he imagines/hopes someone will ask him so that he can give these answers he's practiced/explored/expanded on. I'm very likely reading too much into this, but I keep running back into the thought, so sharing it here!
Bits from recent pages:
I think you've both noted the up/down, heaven/hell, angel/devil references. The one that most caught my attention (because it wraps all these dichotomies into a single reference) was on p. 441: "Haul Seton's down, black, green, and grey, and hoist Mikealy's whey and sawdust." This seems to reference a rather epic heaven/hell battle from Revelations between Satan and the heavenly forces (led by Michael the Archangel). I don't know what the colors or whey and sawdust refer to, but the key actors seemed to me to be these two.
Also, on p. 441, I read the phrase, "jouted out hardworking Jaun" as a key of sorts that supports our assumption that Jaun is Shaun; since "jouted" is a clear stand-in for "shouted" here, it seems to be training us to read the "j" as "sh".
Winner of the creepiest sexual violence line for me was: "...cut your silk-skin into garters" (445). Very Hannibal Lecter-turned-sexual-predator.
Yes to all the bird references you mentioned, Kevin. I might also add "whippoor willy" (whippoorwill), "woody" (woodpecker), and, as a stretch, "philopotamus." I'm not sure why the hippopotamus mash-up, but the philo- seems to bring us back to Philomel's rape, silencing, and subsequent nightingale connection... (all from p. 449)
And the rape reference may rear up again early on p. 450 with the line "What wouldn't I poach" This could also just be talking about poaching birds on someone else's land, but after all the women and violence talk, I feel like the birds are code for something (that or Shaun/Jaun has changed personas again), and this seems to fit his most recent line of talk.
Jenna, the "g.b.d. in my f.a.c.e." line was driving me nuts!! I should have recognized the musical reference--thanks for noting it.
Also, not as much Humpty Dumpty, but still so many eggs!
Finally, on p. 250...who is the "king of saptimber"? King of September, yes? I looked up the history of the month's name, and it isn't named after anyone, but instead derived from the Latin septim/seven (messed that one up a bit as it's the ninth month now, but okay). Anyway, it twitched me just enough to ask if anyone else has a sense for who/what this might be referencing.
Okay, 250-58 tonight and then I *believe* I'm back on track. Happy reading, all!
Nicole and Kevin I believe you are both right about the day's pages. Today’s reading (30th October), covers pages 458 - 462 for me as well. But... apologies, I am still a day behind, so this post covers pages 453 - 457.
Day 90
“I don’t want yous to be billow-fighting your biddy moriarty duels...” (p453) - “billow-fighting” [pillow-fighting?] and “biddy” create an image of trivial disputes and the “moriarty” reference instantly brings to mind Arthur Conan Doyle’s Moriarty, arch-nemesis to Sherlock Holmes. The disparity between arch-nemesis and sibling rivalry seems to grow stark.
“wearing out your ohs by sitting around your ahs” (p453) - GREAT LINE!
“mucuses” (p453) and “Till first he sighed (and how ill soufered!)...” (p454) support Kevin’s suggestion that the multiple references to lung-disorders relate to Shaun / Jaun and the fact that he might be ill.
“O Jaun, so jokable...” (p454) - “joky” was used to describe Shem as well. For all their differences, the twins are also alike. Nicole, I completely agree with you that Shaun seems to change in character. Perhaps this is mirrored by the changes to his name: Shaun to Jaun, but also the many puns on John, Jon and Jonathan (today’s [yesterday’s] favourite being “Jaunathaun” (p454). We know that Shaun hates his job and feels pushed into his work as a postman. I also get the impression he feels improper impulses towards his sister and resents / fears becoming his father. Maybe this is a character aching to find himself and his own place in the world, or even rebelling against the pull of his true self?
“puncheon jodelling” (p455) - Punch and Judy?
“you’r” (p455) - blatant abuse of punctuation / grammar here!
“That’s our crass, hairy and ever-grim life...” (p455) - CHE=HCE. A damaged relationship with a damaged son. What has this father done?
“humpty daum” (p455) / “eggsized” (p457) - I don’t think I need to comment....
“my stave is a bar” (p457) - stave and bar are both musical theory references.
Sorry to bring up 90s pop culture... (so inelegant in discussions about such intellectual literature, but hey, it was my youth....) but was anyone else reminded of ‘Friends’ and Joey’s diatribe about Thursday being the ‘third day’ when they read: “Someday duly, oneday truly, twosday newly, till whensday.” (p457)?????
And on that note....
Happy next five (ten for me tomorrow - PROMISE)!!
Jenna :)
I am finally caught up! I hope tomorrow is that day for you, too, Jenna!Okay, pages.
p. 452: is "Annanmeses" intended to be read as amanuensis? I found another reference on p. 425: "immenuensoes" that I read the same way. It seemed relevant to all the scribing and letter writing/posting going on the last couple chapters.
p. 453: Jaun Dyspeptist = John the Baptist = Shaun
Shep (line 15) struck me as a reference to Shem, but for no particularly good reason.
P. 454 "Parting's fun." (and a related note on p. 462 with "But soft!")... I've seen more Romeo and Juliet references/lines popping up in the last two chapters than in the previous 400+ pages combined. Forbidden relationship theme? Star-crossed lovers?
Also on 454, I love this line: "Sure, treasures, a letterman does be often thought reading ye between lines that do have no sense at all." Reference to the challenges of clear written communication and/or the indecipherable nature of the lines we're currently trying to read between?
p. 455: "Toborrow and toburrow and tobarrow" is from Macbeth's soliloquy after Lady MacBeth dies. I'm not sure I see the connection content-wise, although it's one of the more famous soliloquies in the Shakespearean canon, so potential recognition and wordplay alone might have earned it a spot?
Abel reference on line 21, although I don't see a matching Cain.
humpty daum on 455 and eggsized on 457...
p. 456: writing and letters galore in here! "Letternoosh, Letterspeak, Lettermuck, to Littorananima" "if you can understamp that" "my exraprofessional postages" "nondesirable printed matter" "redletterday calendar" and maybe even "blackmail," although this last is clearly used as a verb rather than a noun.
Kevin, I found your discussion of betrue/betrue/betreu/betray and the relation to betroth even more interesting after reading this section, because very shortly after this line we get, "O bother, I must tell the trouth!" Truth/troth, as in pledging a troth? Seems connected to all the betraying and betrothing that so recently preceded it...
On p. 460, are we getting another leap year mention with "lex leap will smile on my fourinhanced twelvemonthsmind"?
And, finally, Jenna, this bit on p. 461 spoke directly to what you said about Shaun still figuring out his place in the world and trying on different versions of himself: "Jaun responded fullchantedly to her sororal sonority, imitating himself capitally...." The idea that he is imitating even when he's trying on a part of his own personality is intriguing to me.
Okay, that's my (slightly rushed-sorry) catching-up post. Hoping to stick to those 5 a day now! Happy reading, all!
Reading 468 to 472 today.Page 469:
Juan/Shuan finishes his speech and leaves?
After poor Jaun the Boast's last fireless words of postludium of his soapbox speech ending in'sheaven, twentyaid add one with a flirt of wings were pouring to his bysistance...
Juan the Boast - Shuan the Post
Postludium - postlude
twentyaid add one - 28 + 1 = 29, i.e. the 29 girls Juan/Shuan met at the start of the chapter
Page 470-2:
He leaves on a horse after bidding farewell to the girls?
...while the phalanx of daughters of February Filldyke, embushed and climbing, ramblers and weeps, voiced approval in their customary manner by dropping kneedeep in tears over their concelebrated meednight sunflower...
The girls' names:
Frida! Freda! Paza! Paisy! Irine! Areinette! Bridomay! Bentamai! Sososopky! Bebebekka! Bababadkessy! Ghugugoothoyou! Dama! Damadomina! Takiya! Tokaya! Scioccara! Siuccherillina! Peocchia! Peucchia! Ho Mi Hoping! Ha Me Happinice! Mirra! Myrha! Solyma! Salemita! Sainta! Sianta! O Peace!
More stuff concerning his departure:
...he toppled a lipple on to the off and, making a brandnew start for himself to run down his easting...
...away with him at the double, the hulk of a garron, pelting after the road, on Shanks's mare, let off like a wind hound loose...
...following which fond floral fray he was quickly lost to sight through the statuemen...
My long farewell I send to you, fair dream of sport and game and always something new. Gone is Haun!
Thy now paling light lucerne we ne'er may see again.
Other interesting things i spotted
Pg 468:
In the beginning was the gest he jousstly says, for the end is with woman, flesh-without-word, while the man to be is in a worse case after than before since she on the supine satisfies the verg to him!
The phrase "in the beginning", and the words "flesh" and "man" remind me of the beginning of the Gospel of John (=Juan?). This from the King James Version:
(1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... (14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Immediately following this, lots of language-related terms: tootoological (tautological), first person shingeller (first person singular), imperfect subjunctive (imperfect, subjunctive), onamatterpoetic (onomatopoeia).
And this: nikrokosmikon - Necronomicon + cosmos
Pg 470:
Eh jourd'weh! Oh jourd'woe! dosiriously it psalmodied. Guesturn's lothlied answring to-maronite's wail.
Eh jourd'weh! Oh jourd'woe! - Aujourd'hui, French for "today".
Guesturn - Gestern, German for "yesterday".
to-maronite - Tomorrow, or tomorrow night.
Cool, no?
Now that I've caught up, I need to start doing my reading in the morning so I'm not always a full day behind! Just read 463-67. Reference level? Off the charts. Here goes:Some biblical references near the bottom of 463--Moses, Noah, and "Jonas wrocked in the belly of the whaves...." I like this last one in particular for the wrecked/rocked and whale/waves play.
Starting on 464, KKK references all over the place, although some are certainly subject to interpretation. Here are the two I'm pretty certain of: "Flu Flux Fans" and "klakkin"...but then we get "Father Freeshots Feilbogen" further down the page and a surprising number of word triplets (there may be a more official name for these, but for the moment that's what I'm calling three words in a row that start with the same letter). Are these all meant to be read as KKK? Also, are they related to the rossy/alba comparison on...I think it was 463?
Yankee Doodle references on 464: "yunker doodler," "awriting off his phoney" (riding on his pony), "dapper dandy" (which I connected to Yankee Doodle because of the line "Yankee Doodle dandy," but may also be a reference to Dapper Dan hair product, which resurfaces on p. 466.
Interesting underwear discussions on 465--drawoffs (drawers) and smallclothes. The conversation turns a bit rapey again for a bit here.
Then, later on 465, we get this: "Be offalia. Be hamlet. Be the property plot. Be Yorick and Lankystare." Ophelia/Hamlet/Yorick, sure. But...Lancaster isn't in Hamlet. He's in Richard II (or III?) and I think all of the Henry plays. So is Joyce making a connection here, referencing both, or referencing the real life House of Lancaster, branch of the Plantagenet family, player in the Wars of the Roses? All of the above? Also uncertain what the property plot might be, although I have a vague memory of something called The Gunpowder Plot that I think was related to...Henry IV maybe? That one's foggy at best.
But wait! We aren't done with the magic at the bottom of 465! "...there's no plagues like rome." This was too dang coincidental, so I looked it up--the Wizard of Oz film was released in 1939, the same year FW was published. The book had already been around for a while, although I'll admit I haven't read it. Is this memorable line in the text as well as the film?
Then, we end p. 465 with this sentence: "The leady on the lake and the convict of the forest." I'm reading this as a mash-up of Arthurian legend and Robin Hood, although what they're doing in the same sentence together I couldn't tell you.
On p. 466, I was intrigued by this line: "Turn about, skeezy Sammy, out of metaphor, till we feel you are still tropeful of popetry." Well, metaphor is a kind of trope, and "popetry" could easily be read as "poetry," so there's that. There's also "hopeful" and..."puppetry," maybe? I'm imagining manipulation of some kind involved here.
What's up with "begob"? We get this on 463, 465, and 466. By God? Demon name? Gobbledygook?
Finally, I loved this sentence on 467: "But the whacker his word the weaker our ears for auracles who parles parses orileys."
It's exactly the kind of rabbit hole I love to leap into. We've got the w/w/w alliteration (which brings me back to my kkk question from above), the ears/aural connection (and most oracles traditionally speak their prophecies, so they could also be seen, literally, as auracles). Then we have "parles"--which is, interestingly, the informal "you" (tu) conjugation of the French verb parler/to speak. The informality in regards to an oracle surprised me a bit. Parses... you parse? Most oracular prophecies tend to need some parsing/interpretation, but that also seems a bit too obvious. And, lastly, I'm completely stumped on "orileys." It seems likely to connect to the aural/oracle thread in some way, but I can't...well, parse it.
And on that note, happy reading!
In the light of day, my confusion from last night is suddenly clear: orileys = oreilles...ears in French. Yes? So, the oracles speak to you with understanding ears? Or...? Still intrigued, but feeling a bit silly now for not getting this piece of the puzzle until today!
Will make this a quick one today because i'm rather busy.So far it seems the first three chapters of book III are all about Shuan. The first was a dream sequence. The second was some kind of speech delivered to 29 girls. The third chapter begins with "Pure Yawn lay low", and promises yet more to do with Shuan: "His dream monologue was over, of cause, but his drama parapolylogic had yet to be, affact."
So the first four pages of chapter 3: Yawn is lying on the ground somewhere, after having fallen sick and left the 29 girls. We are introduced to four men, who are described as "three kings of three suits and a crowner" (pg. 474), and as senators (pg. 475). We are told that they are holding some kind of inquiry over Yawn: "Those four claymen clomb together to hold their sworn starchamber quiry on him" (pg. 475). The Star Chamber btw, was an English court of law in the 16th and 17th centuries, used to try powerful public figures who would otherwise never be convicted. We learn the names of the four men: Matt Gregory, Marcus Lyons, Lucas Metcalfe Tarpey, and Jonny na Hossaleen, i.e. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John (pg. 476). The inquiry seems to begin to page 477, with Yawn being asked his "historical grouns", i.e. where he comes from? To which he replies, "This same prehistoric barrow 'tis, the orangery". Am i understanding this right?
Incidental linguistic speculation: Shuan has been called "Juan", "Huan" and "Yawn". Is it a coincidence that the letter "J" can be pronounced something like a "H" in Spanish (technically a [x] sound, like the "ch" in German "ich"), and something like a "Y" in Germanic languages? Probably not.
Hmm. The link Trina posted above is the best I found as well, Jenna. I don't know if this counts or not, but I've marked probably half a dozen references that I labeled "Rosicrucian" or something similar, and the rabbithole of your question got me to the tidbit that the Freemasons, while separate from the various Rosicrucian societies, still use the Rose Croix that those societies got their name from... that's just a connection in the book itself, though. I'm really not sure how to find out whether Joyce had an actual masonic affiliation or not. Here's one more link I found, not sure if it's really useful, but adding it just in case (page 54 seems to be the bulk of the relevant conversation): http://books.google.com/books?id=s_eX...
I'm understanding the opening of this chapter essentially the same way you are, Kevin. The only things I would add are:1. I'm not sure if Shaun is technically ill... I'm intrigued by the poppies reference on 476, line 20. It struck me at first as another Wizard of Oz moment, as he seems to be rather unnaturally asleep among them, but I suspect it's really an opium reference. Is Shaun an addict? It might go a certain distance toward explaining his uneven personality traits.
2. The set-up of our four gospel-writers traveling to this place where Shaun sleeps has an epic journey feel to it. The scale/scope/structure of it made me think of works like the Odyssey or the Aeneid. I wonder if this paralleling of classic large-scale journeys is intentional (the climbing up the mountain and "up to the esker ridge" section on 475 is where this most particularly struck me).
Other notes, mostly from yesterday's pages, which were whoppers:
So, last post I was having fun with the trope/metaphor bits on 466. They keep coming on 468. Two are tied for my favorite in this batch.
First, we get "Toughtough, tootoological." tautological...which, if I remember right, is about unnecessary repetition/redundancy. Which is pretty funny when represented by language that is precisely (and unnecessarily) repeating itself--tough/tough and too/too. I hope Joyce made himself laugh out loud when he put that bit together.
Then, we get "Miss Smith onamatterpoetic." onomatopoeia, but it also makes lovely and perfect sense that Miss Smith might have something to say on a matter poetic.
Oh, dang! I forgot about "So dactylise him up to blankpoint..." I really never thought those tedious scansion exercises from college would ever come in handy again, but here we are. Dactyl = a three syllable metered foot of verse in which the first syllable gets the stress. For example, the word "strawberry" or, better yet, the word "dactylise." Blankpoint refers, I think, to blank verse--verse in iambic pentameter that doesn't rhyme. With all the Shakespeare references, I've been keeping an eye out for iambic pentameter moments, but the closest I've seen have been a couple segments of iambic tetrameter, and those were rhymed couplets. Still, I'm sticking by this interpretation for now because it fits with so many of the references Joyce has been making.
I haven't asked this before, but I'm tossing it out there now--there have been several places in this book where I've wondered how familiar with/influenced by T.S. Eliot's "The Wasteland" Joyce was when writing this. I looked it up yesterday, and "The Wasteland" was published in 1922, definitely predating FW by enough that it could have been an influence. Some of the jug! jug! bits and Tereu/rape of Philomel have struck me as crossovers, and on p. 469 Kew is mentioned, which is a location that stands out from TWL. This could just be me making my own little synaptic connections based on my own readings, but I thought I'd put it out there and see if anyone else has had these moments as well!
Plenty of other notes, but I'll leave it at that for tonight. Happy reading, all!
Thanks, Trina and Nicole. :)Days 94 & 95
A couple of things have struck me about this chapter so far:
1 - Sleep, dreaming, altered state of consciousness.
“His dream monologue was over, of course, but his drama parapolylogic had yet to be: (p474) [reference to past, present and future here as well, incidentally]
“Yawn in a semiswoon” (p474) [interesting - not a full swoon, but only a half swoon!]
“All of asprawl he was laying too amengst the poppies” (p476)
Nicole, I’m sure that you are right to draw out the significance of opiates in relation to poppies. In addition to the sleep inducement a la Wizard of Oz, the altered state of consciousness brought about might be significant as well (dream-like hallucinations?).
Either way, this sleepy, dreamy Yawn (keeps making me yawn!) chapter has the feel of nothing being real, the the world is screened by the uncertainty of dream. Not quite awake, not quite asleep, but occupying the space somewhere in the barrier between the two states of consciousness.
2 - HCE
SO MANY HCEs!! To list but a few:
“Ecce Hagios Chrisman” (p480)
“Hootchcopper’s enkel” (p480)
“Hunkalus Chilared Easterheld” (p480)
“Hillcloud encompass” (p480)
“humeplace of Chivitats” (p481)
“house of Eddy’s Christy” (p482)
Not to mention the fact that the first letters of each line at the top of page 481 also spell out ‘HCE’:
“Hail him heathen, heal him holystone!
Courser, Recourser, Changechild.....
Eld as endall, earth...”
All of these, but the 3-line example more than any other raise the question of HCE in Shaun / Jaun / Yawn’s life. He feels like a constant, ghostly presence, flittering at the edge of consciousness.
In the 3-line HCE, there is - once again - the feeling of conflict and contrast. “hail” v “heal”, “heathen” v “holy”, Heaven [“heathen”?] v “earth”. The second line seems to concern repetition, consequence and change. “Eld as endall, earth” might be a reference to the end of the old world and the inevitable transition.
One other thing I want to mention is the way Joyce makes an address, similar to the way narrators sometimes address the reader of the book. However, rather than ‘dear reader’, Joyce uses: “drear writer” (p476). There is a further reference to a “psychical chirography” and follows it up with “the name of Keven” (p482). Wasn’t Shem referred to as “Kev” in a previous chapter? (or was that Shaun? I forget...) So I wondered if this was an address to Shem the writer. (The "drear" reference might imply that this is another snipe at Shem by Yawn.) But it also crossed my mind that with Joyce writing Finnegans Wake in such bizarre language, the reader will inevitably bring a certain amount of subjectivity to the interpretation they infer. Therefore, there is an extent to which the reader is actually ‘writing’ the plot through subjective interpretation.
Nicole - your analysis of "dactylise him up to blankpoint" is amazing. It makes me realise how much meaning in this book I am missing!!
Happy next five!
Reading 478 to 487 today, because i missed yesterday.So far i'm finding this chapter one of the easiest to read. I think i've gotten a fair gist of what's to Yawn/Shaun.
Pg 478
The Four question Yawn about the fact that there are "six hundred and six ragwords" in his language for something, but "not one pronouncable teerm" for something else. Not sure what these two somethings are.
Yawn/Shaun replies in a mixture of French and English, only some of which i've managed to decipher:
C'est mal prononsable - That's hard to pronounce
Moy jay trouvay la clee dang les champs - "Mais j'ai trouvé le clef dans les champs", But i've found the key in the fields.
The Four use this English-French mix as well:
Commong, sa na pa de valure? - "Comment, ça n'a pas de valeur?" - How, that does not have value? Or something like that.
Other stuff:
dieudonnay - Dieudonné(e). Literally, "God-given". This is apparently a person's name.
Three persons - the Trinity.
Pg 479
Yawn/Shaun begins to see that this line of questioning is dangerous to him:
Do not flingamejig to the twolves! - Do not fling me to the wolves!
The Four then bring up the barrows that Yawn first mentioned in reply to their first question, about his personal history. They mention a very old boat:
You told my larned friend rather previously, a moment since, about this mound or barrow. Now I suggest to you that ere there was this plagueburrow, as you seem to call it, there was a burialbattell, the boat of millions of years.
Now i recall that old Norse warriors were buried in mounds, or in barrows, and those of high stature who went abroad in ships (i.e. who were vikings) were buried with a boat, or at least in a mound shaped like a boat. Something like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia...
To which Shaun replies, "Beseek the runes and see the longurn".
Other stuff:
Pourquoi Pas - French, "why not?"
weissduwasland - German, "Weißt du was", roughly "You know what".
Draken af Danemork - Dragon of Denmark
Spake ab laut - "Speak out loud". The "ab" and the "laut" give it a Germanic quality.
Warum night - German, "Warum nicht?" = "Why not", matching Pourquoi pas.
Pg 480
Yawn/Shaun keeps talking about a Norwegian ("Norsker"), a slave-ship with a raven flag ("Her raven flag was out, the slaver"), and mentions wolves (Call Wolfhound! Wolf of the sea. Folchu! Folchu!")
The Four find what Yawn/Shawn has said in agreement with what they have heard before from somebody else: "That folklore's straight from the ass his mouth."
At this point the conversation seems to turn to HCE. Tons of mentions of him. Jenna has already pointed this out so i won't repeat all of them here.
Pg 481
The Four ask Yawn/Shaun something about his ancestor, HCE: "Was this Totem Fulcrum Est Ancestor yu hald in Dies Eirae where no spider webbeth or Anno Mundi ere bawds plied in Skiffstrait? Be fair, Chris!"
Yawn/Shaun does not try to hide the fact that HCE is his father. He refers to him as "Ouer Tad", i.e. "Our dad".
Pg 482
The Four ask Yawn/Shaun if he kens somebody named Keven/Kevin, who is a student(?) of "psychical chirography", and who supposedly found a "dogumen number one" ("document number one"):
Would ye ken a young stepschuler of psychical chirography, the name of Keven, or (let outers pray) Evan Vaughan, of his Posthorn in the High Street, that was shooing a Guiney gagag, Poulepinter, that found the dogumen number one, I would suggest, an illegible downfumbed by an unelgible?
Jenna pointed this out as well, and yeah, i seem to remember Kevin = Shem.
They proceed to talk about -- and here i'm guessing -- some texts, including the Book of Kells ("book of kills").
Pg 483
They then point out that the story (within the texts discussed?) is the story of Shaun, but that it is written in Shem's handwriting:
The gist is the gist of Shaum but the hand is the hand of Sameas. Shan - Shim - Schung. There is a strong suspicion on counterfeit Kevin and we all remember ye in childhood's reverye.
Earlier on in the book, several times i seem to remember, Shaun has accussed Shem of plagiarism. So this checks out.
Yawn/Shaun doesn't like seeing himself involved, and protests: "What cans such wretch to say to I or how have My to doom with him? - Am i to be doomed with him?"
Pg 484
Yawn/Shaun delivers a really long speech, continuing from the middle of page 483, and ending at the top of page 485, in which he calls the Four "laycreated cardonals", which might be an insult. He's calling them "lay-created cardinals", i.e. questioning their authority to question him?
There seems to be some Latin at the bottom of the page, which i can't decipher because i don't read Latin. But i can make out some words: "Eggs squawfish lean yoe nun feed marecurious." (Ex... non... mercurius"?)
Pg 485
At the top of page 485 we have "Itch dean", which might be "Ich dien", the motto of the Prince of Wales?
The Four accuse Yawn/Shaun of trying to waylay them by speaking in German/gibberish:
Are we speachin d'anglas landadge or are you sprakin sea Djoytsch? - "Are we speaking of the English language, or are you speaking German?". "anglas" = "English. "Sprechen Sie Deutsch" = "Do you speak German".
They ask him about this "old fellow": "What about your thruppenny croucher of an old fellow, me boy, through the ages, tell us, eh?"
Yawn/Shawn replies, again trying to waylay them, this time by trying to pass himself of as a Chinese person:
"Me no angly mo, me speakee Yellman's lingas. Nicey Doc Mistel Lu, please!" - "Me no English man. Me speakee Yellow man's language. Nice Doctor Mister Luke". The disciple Luke was a doctor.
Also, he claims not to know the aforementioned document number one: " Me no pigey ludiments all same numpa one Topside Tellmastoly fella."
The Four swear in frustration: "Hell's Confucium and the Elements!" (HCE + Confucius).
Also, "checking chinchin chat with nipponnippers" - "chinchin" = "Chinese", "nipponnippers" = "Japanese".
Pg 486-7
In the remaining two pages the Four seem to be asking Yawn/Shaun whether he is a real Roman Catholic, or whether he is a fake one:
"Halt there sob story to your lambdad's tale! Are you roman cawthrick 432?"
"Are you imitation Roma now or Amor now."
Other stuff:
psychosinology - psychology + sinology ( the study of China)
tistress isoles - distress + isolation + Tristan and Isolde
odinburgh - Odin + Edinburgh
So the clarity of the last few days was short-lived. Not really sure what is happening in today's five pages, except the first two of them (maybe three) might have something to do with Yawn/Shaun's brother, while the last sees a lot of references to India appearing suddenly.Pg 488-9
Brother references:
- "Ruemember, blither, thou must lie!", pg 488 line 18
- "...my allaboy brother, Negoist Cabler, of this city, whom 'tis better ne'er to name, my said brother...", pg 488 lines 21-23
- " How he went to his swiltersland after his lungs, my sad late brother, before his coglionial expancian?", pg 488 line 30-32. Also, "coglionial expancian" = "colonial expansion"? Would fit in with India later.
- " Oremus poor fraternibus that he may yet escape the gallews and still remain ours faithfully departed.", pg 489 line 6-7
- "My freer! I call you my halfbrother because you in your soberer otiumic moments remind me deeply of my natural saywhen brothel in feed, hop and jollity, S. H. Devitt, that benighted irismaimed, who is tearly belaboured by Sydney and Alibany.", Pg 489 lines 28-32. "frère" = "brother"
Pg 490
Madonagh and Chiel - Madonna and Child
Mr Gottgab - "Gott gab" = "god gave" in German. Reference to "dieudonné" from before, whch means the same thing in French.
doblinganger - Dublin + doppelgänger (Wikipedia: "paranormal double of a living person"). Could be Shem.
Pg 491
Mr Hairwigger - Earwicker. HCE.
Pg 492
India references:
Coalcutter - Calcutta/Kolkata. City.
I hindustand - I understand + Hindustan = informal name for northwestern Indian
Sahib - "Sir". Term of address used by Indians towards their colonial masters.
...I am writing in mepetition to Kavanagh Djanaral... - Wikipedia: "Major General Sir Orfeur Cavenagh KCSI (1820–1891) was the last India-appointed Governor of the Straits Settlements, who governed the Straits Settlements from 1859 to 1867."
...if my rupee repure riputed husbandship H.R.R.... - the Rupee is the currency of India
Hi all! I'm still going along, but I got really stuck in Sept and caught up in Oct. then behind again. I'm on page 358 currently and have set a goal to get caught up by the 13th and jump back in on the conversation. I think I'm going to read the discussion with the pages I'm reading. Right now I'm reading pg 356- 358 and the book is talking about time, reminded me of seeing briefly your conversation on time tag! Very impressed that you've kept up with the discussion board! I also got to reading some of Joseph Campbell's book and I don't know if that helped or hindered me with my reading! I hope to catch back up on the 13th!
Evening, all! It’s late here, bed beckons, and I haven’t posted for three days, so will just run through a few comments and won’t waffle on with my usual ‘ifs’, ‘buts’ and ‘maybes’.Days 96, 97 & 98
“peachumpidgeonlover’ (p485) - What a word!
“Now I, the lord of Tuttu, am placing that initial T square of burial jade upright to your temple a moment. Do you see anything, templar?” (p486) - Presumably a likening of a T square to a Christian cross; not sure about “Lord of Tuttu” [King Tut / Tutankhamun?, given the “burial” and “temple” reference (ie tomb)?]; interested to see a reference to the templars, given the religion topic of this section and the fact that their symbol was the cross
The frequency of ‘HCEs’ and some of the accompanying comments give me the impression that Shaun / Jaun / Yawn / Whatever Next is either transitioning into his father, or afraid of becoming his father.
“I am not myself at all, no jolly fear, when I realise mimiselves how becomingly I to be going to become” (p487) - To be honest, I’ve lost track of which dialogue is whose. Whether these are Yawn’s words or not, there is a questioning of identity and transition in these words.
“In the becoming was the weared” (p487) - John’s Gospel Ch1v1 - ‘In the beginning was the word’
“You knew me once but you won’t know me twice.” (p487) - Identity and repetition.
“Some portion of your answer appears to have been token by you from the writings of Saint Synodius, that first liar.” (p487) - If directed at Yawn, possibly a comment on the hypocrisy of his earlier accusations of plagiarism on Shem’s part. Also... plagiarism implies a lack of ‘self’ (ie, work done by another is adopted and passed off as one’s own), so this could come down to an identity issue again.
“Suffering unegotistically from the singular but positively enjoying on the plural” (p488) - I’m interested in the parallel drawn between egotism and the use of language.
“expulled for looking at churches from behind” (p488) - expelled from viewing religion from a different angle?
“N.S.W” (p489) - Multiple references to Australia (“ostralian” (p488), “austrasia” (p489), “Sydney” (p489), “Alibany” (p489) [Albany = city in Australia]) suggest that this could be New South Wales. When comparing this to some of the exiled feelings evoked by the language and lines like “He feels he ought to be as asamed of me as me to be ashunned of him” (p489) make me wonder if the significance of Australia is in its role as a British penal colony. Shame / shunning etc.
“shemable! My freer! I call you my halfbrother because you in your soberer otiumic moments remind me so deeply of my natural saywhen brothel in feel.....” (p489) - I think this is what everything is about for Shaun / Jaun / Yawn.
“Ani Latch of the postern” (p493) - ALP
“bump where the camel got the needle” (p494) - goes back to that Biblical line about a camel passing through the eye of the needle (see previous comments).
“Ophiuchus” (p494) - Serpent related constellation
“serpent ring systemin the pisciolinnies Nova Ardonis and Prisca Parthenopea” (p494) - constellations, serpents, Pisces, circles. It’s all relevant.
“Ers, Mores and Merkery” (p494) - Earth, Mars and Mercury. I wonder why there is no mention of Venus, given the three planets listed.
“North, Haste, Soot and Waste” (p494) - North, East, South West. (Maybe also intended as a reference in the “N.S.W.” on page 489?
“Holy snakes” (p494) - I can only think of one... the Garden of Eden?
“wreuter of annoyingmost letters” (p495) - Poor old Shem the Penman taking yet another stream of abuse....
“Alas for livings’ pledjures!” (p496) - ALP
“boycotted and girlcutted” (p496) - Just wanted to pull this out.
“Bumpty, tumbty, Sot on a Wall” (p496) - Drunken Humpty Dumpty?????
“Ma’s da. Da’s ma. Madas. Sadam.” (p496) - Language / meaning etc
“If there is a future in every past that is present” (p496) - past / present / future - cyclical etc
“Quinnigan’s Quake!” - Finnegan’s Wake. With an apostrophe!
Night night! :)
Pages 493 to 502 today, because i missed yesterday. Again, getting only the slightest inkling of what is happening.Pg 492
Some Indian-sounding words in the first paragraph, continuing from the previous page: Foraignghistan ("foreign" + city), mayarannies, Vikramadityationists, gulughurutty.
Are we reading about ALP? India is often personified as a woman. And in the last paragraph we have, "My heart, my mother!"
Pg 496
Alas for living's pledjures! - ALP. Jenna pointed this out too.
...nor a minx from the Isle of Woman - Manx, Isle of Man.
Mr Eelwhipper - Earwicker. HCE.
All ears did wag, old Eire wake... - Earwig (HCE), Ire (Ireland), wake (Finnegans Wake)
"This liggy piggy wanted to go to the jampot. And this leggy peggy spelt pea. And theese lucky puckers played at pooping tooletom." - "This little piggy..."
Abha na Lifé - Anna Livia?
...getting on to dadaddy again - Changing topics? Back to HCE?
Pg 497
Quinnigan's Quake - Finnegan's Wake. With an apostrophe, as Jenna notes!
Hosty's and Co, Exports - HCE
Rinseky Poppakork - Rimsky-Korsakov
Piowtor the Grape - Peter the Great
String of Near Eastern religious/political/military leaders: shawhs (shah), mufti (mufti), sultana (sultan), Khan (khan), Maharashers (maharaja).
Pg 499
Rockquiem eternuel - requiem eternal?
Funnycoon's Wick - Finnegans wake
adipose rex - Oedipus rex
D'yu mean to sett there where y'are now... repeating yurself, and tell me that? - Are The Four starting to get impatient with Yawn?
I mean to sit here on this altknoll where you are now, Surly guy, replete in myself, as long as i live... - "Yes".
pound of pressed ollaves - Mount of Olives?
Pg 500
Not sure what is happening here, but there seems to be a lot of excitement and violence.
Pg 501
Act drop. Stand by! Blinders! Curtain up. - Scene change.
Lewd's carol - Lewis Caroll
Just on the off chance that this isn't already clear: as much as I'm having fun with the reading, I really don't think I would have been able to maintain the motivation to stick with it without this smart and insightful community. I'm glad you're all here. Also, you can do it, Lindsey!! I don't have a whole lot to add from the last couple days' reading that hasn't already been mentioned. Here's what I do have:
A lot of brother/twin talk, or at least bits I'm interpreting as such.
1. Castor and Pollux are mentioned on p. 489 ("castor and porridge")
2. "doblinganger" on 490 seems to be a mash-up of Dublin and doppelganger
3. "We were in one class of age like to two clots of egg" (489).
4. "That letter selfpenned to one's other..." (489).
5. palindromes...I'm not sure I can explain why these seem related to the twins, but we get close to a palindrome on p. 487 with "Are you imitation Roma now or Amor now." roma/amor
We get a true palindrome on p. 493: "...he locked plum into my mirrymouth like Ysamasy morning in the end of time..." Ysamasy
6. Finally, a line Jenna mentioned that struck me from a different angle (p. 489): "my shembable! My freer!" This one directly names the twin and claims brotherhood, but it also goes back to Baudelaire's Fleurs du Mal again (mon semblable,--mon frere!), which gets us even deeper into twin-ness with semblable/likeness/twin. The strange thing about so directly evoking this piece is that the likeness is ultimately the poem's reader. I don't get the sense that Shem is reading this, but this is either the second or third reference to this specific line of poetry, so deeper connection/meaning seems possible.
Other than twins, there's a lot of family talk in general as an undercurrent to all the alliteration and India and nursery rhyme references. The bit on p. 495, "Your wife. Amn. Anm. Amm. Ann." struck me as an ALP reference, as did this immediately following: "artis litterarumque patrona". There is also something in the line on p. 493, "My heart, my mother! My hesrt, my coming forth of darkness!" that resonated for me. I'm not sure if the coming forth is a birth reference or some other form of moving into light, but it is a clear and powerful statement.
Two small things that I haven't seen mentioned yet. The writing/reading references keep getting sprinkled in here, and I couldn't help noticing these:
p. 494-95: "Responsif you plais" Répondez s'il vous plaît? RSVP?
Then later on 495: "Now you see! Respect S.V.P." Respect s'il vous plaît? a different RSVP? Also, interesting that this comes just before the "Your wife. Amn...." bit. Seems to be Shawn exalting ALP a bit and telling HCE to respect her?
I think that's my two cents for the day. Happy next five, everyone!
Day 99“But there’s leps of flam in Funnycoon’s Wick. The keyn has passed. Lung lift the keying!” (p499) - This line goes back to the Irish folk song, Finnegan’s Wake and the line, ‘lots of fun at Finnegan’s Wake’. I’m intrigued by the ‘king is dead, long live the king’ references. I am wondering about the distinctions between Finnegan and the father, HCE. In previous chapters (was it the chapter with the trial?), HCE was repeatedly referred to as the ‘king’. This line is followed by: “God save you king! Master of Hidden Life.”, implying that the reincarnation theme applies to the ‘king’, which as far as I can tell is HCE. The plot of this book centres around an Irish family: HCE, ALP, Shem, Shaun and Izzy. I haven’t yet grasped Finnegan’s relationship to them, be it a character relationship, a symbolic relationship, or simply take the form of metaphor. But increasingly, the reincarnation of Finnegan, the wake and HCE seem to be connected.
Herein lies the danger of trying to interpret this book into a traditional plot. The language is so distracting that at no point have I ever EXPERIENCED the plot or characters. I’ve not joined them on their journeys or felt the vibe of the pub they own. And yet my brain keeps searching for moments and characters and traditions to latch onto, because it has been effectively corrupted by standardised rules in storytelling. This book may attempt to dismantle those traditions, but it’s a whole other thing to train the brain to accept it. Part of me (the Shem part of me?) wants to shed convention and just get sucked into the language, and the other part of me (the Shaun part?) wants to buy a second copy of the book and attack it with a highlighter pen, simply drawing out the linear plot elements so that the whole thing can start to slot together in my mind.
“Act drop. Stand by! Blinders! Curtain up!” (p501) - This follows the abrupt cessation of speech and... the shocked, expectant silence of.... who? An audience? The line quoted takes us back to the theatre chapter, where the family dynamic was expressed through performance. Yes, a scene change, as Kevin states. Also... the fact that as readers we are suddenly taken back a step from the action again. We are no longer invisible presences in the character’s lives, feeling their feelings and thinking their thoughts, we consciously become an audience, separate from the action, viewing a performance on stage, performed for our benefit. The distance between us and the characters suddenly becomes wider.
“Hail many fell of greats! Horey morey smother of fog!” (p502) - Hail Mary full of grace; Holy Mary mother of God. What a scathing reference! ‘fell’, ‘whore’, ‘smothering like fog’... The question is, is this solely a comment on the evils of the institutionalisation of religion, or a parallel to the women in this book ie Mary as a symbol of womanhood / mother. ALP? A smothering mother?
“From Miss Somer’s nice dream” (p502) - A Midsummer Night’s Dream (Shakespeare). I know there are many who believe the narrative of Finnegans Wake to be a dream sequence, and at times it certainly feels that way - especially when there are instances, such as the ‘curtain up’ moment on page 501, where the levels of consciousness seem to alter (like waking up abruptly, or sinking into a deeper stage of the sleep cycle.... interesting.... sleep CYCLE - had not considered that before...) or characters become interchangeable. It would be very easy for me to fall into this category of readers and adopt this view. Perhaps too easy.
There are numerous references to British and Irish history in this chapter. Today, Tudors and Stuarts, Cromwell and Irish Independence all get a mention.
Kevin - yes, I think ALP is somehow relevant. The “my heart, my mother” line is really powerful. Perhaps the fact that India is personified as a woman is significant. Womanhood features strongly in today’s pages.
Nicole - re your point 6 above. That’s really interesting. I’m ashamed not to know Baudelaire’s work (my literary knowledge is extremely lacking!), but literary history seems to be an integral component of Finnegans Wake, so I’m certain that you are right when you say a connection seems possible. I don’t know if Joyce is effectively plagiarising the work of others to deliver his point - which seems to be a plot feature in itself - or whether there is a hidden comment on the works he mentions. Also, your note on palindromes: I hadn’t spotted them! But you are completely right! There are loads of them! I agree that it feels appropriate that it relates to twins, with one half of a word mirroring the other.
Just a quick one today. Pages 503-512, because i missed yesterday.So i've basically lost track of what's happening with this trial/inquest, except that between 503 and 506 we hear a lot about trees, and particularly the Yggdrasil, the World Tree, or the World Ash, where the gods convene daily to hold their Things (their councils).
Pg 503
-- There used to be a tree stuck uo? An overlisting eshtree? - "everlasting ash tree". Yggdrasil, the eternal ash tree.
Oakley Ashe's elm... beerchen bough - oak, ash, elm, birch?
Pg 504
plantagenets - plant + plantagenet
hiding your wren under a bushle - bush + Matthew 5:15 "Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house."
Arber - arbre. "tree" in French
preeminent giant... beingstalk - Jack and the beanstalk
fraternitrees - fraternity + trees
origin of spices - Origin of Species
eggdrazzles - Yggdrasil
Pg 505
More tree and Christian references:
leaves (line 9), branches (line 10), menlike trees walking or trees like angels weeping (line 16), the true tree (line 26), treemanangel (line 33), etc.
But rocked of agues, cliffed for aye - Rock of ages, cleft for me. Hymn.
Pg 506
treefellers - people who fell trees
treefalluses - treefellers + phalluses
Anna Lynscha's - Anna Livia
Pg 508
-- How culuous an epiphany! - HCE
-- Hodie casus esobhrakonton? - HCE
Blondman's blaff - blind man's bluff
-- Gels bach... liszted. Etoudies - J.S. Bach, Franz Liszt, Études.
Pg 510
Scandiknivery - "Scandinavian". Distinctly resembles "Scandiknavery" in chapter 1.2.
Pg 512
Megallan ("Megalomagellan"), Christopher Columbus ("Crestofer Carambas") and Ernest Shackleton ("shekleton's my fortune") are all mentioned on this page, and all three were also mentioned in chapter 2.3. This and "Scandiknivery" on page 510 make me wonder if something is going on here that's involving repeated references to events earlier in the book. Given we're reading about some kind of inquest, i think this is quite possibly what's happening.
Annabella, Lovabella, Pullabella - Anna Livia Plurabelle
huggerknut cramell energuman - HCE
herreraism of a cabotinesque exploser - HCE
Literary Disco
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Pg 330
"Danno the Dane" - Reference to Denmark. But also, this is apparently the title of a painting.
"Jeg will elsecare" - "I want to love". Compare Norwegian, "Jeg vil elske".
"Mick na Murrough" - McNamara? This name has appeared several times since the start of the chapter. Don't know who it is or who the name refers to.
"paid full feines for their sinns" - Sinn Féin? Irish republican political party.
"Twwinns" - The brothers?
"barneydansked" - barney? barn dance? "barn" is Swedish for "children", which would work because the word occurs in close proximity with "Twwinns". "Dansk" is Swedish for "Danish".
Pg 331
"the balder and of the sol and of the hollichrost" - The father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. Baldr was the son of Odin, whose murder started the war that ended in Ragnarøk.
"tarns, thwaites and thorpes, withes, tofts and fosses, fells, haughs and shaws, lunds, garths and dales" - Names of geographical features.
"kristianiasation" - Christianisation + Kristiania (former name of Oslo)
Pg 332
"if hec dont love alpy" - HEC + ALP
"Gestapose" - Juxtapose + Gestapo
"Fine again, Cuoholson" - Finnegan? Also possible is Finn McCool, whom we saw earlier in the book. "Cuoholson" sounds like "Coolson", which is the Germanic equivalent of the Celtic "McCool".
"tolk of Doolin" - Talk of Dublin? Folk of Dublin?
"theogamyjig" - Thingamajig?
"o szeszame open" - Open sesame.
Something different is happening with "o szeszame open" and "szszuszchee is slowjaneska" later on in the paragraph. Linguistically, everything we have seen up till now in the chapter has resembled Germanic or Celtic languages. These two phrases look Slavic.
"danzing" on line 8 supports this. Danzig was a city on the Baltic coast, today known as Gdańsk, in Poland. "behomeans" on line 5 could be "Bohemia", in the Czech Republic.
"king of all dronnings" - "King of all queens". "Drottning" is "queen" in Swedish. "Dronning" is queen in Norwegian. Interesting titbit: "Queen" in English also comes from Scandinavian, but in Scandinavian the word means "woman". "Kvinna" in Swedish, "kvinne" in Norwegian. The Scandinavian word for "queen" comes from Old Norse "dróttinn", which means "lord" or "leader". Very curious.
Pg 334
"the funst man in Danelagh" - "The funnest man in Danelagh"? Danelagh, or Danelaw, is the part of Anglo-Saxon England that was ruled by the Danes, where the law of the Danes applied.