Literary Disco discussion
Finnegan's Wake-Up
I loved the section yesterday on p70-71 with the list of epithets that have been applied to Earwicker. And I also love the idea of his having kept track of them.
Oooo, in today's section a few pages I can at least half understand! Exciting. And very amusing! I especially enjoyed, on p76, This wastohavebeen underground heaven, or mole's paradise
On p78, is this another instance of JJ breaking the 4th wall, and referring to himself?[...]the divine one, the hoarder hidden propaguting his plutorpopular progeniem of pots and pans and pokers and puns from biddenland to boughtenland
Favorite word today: dreariodreama (79)Favorite sentence: "Yes, the viability of vicinals if invisible is invincible."(81)
I think there is some importance to this part on page 83, "( in the Nichtian glossery which purveys aprioric roots for aposteriorious tongues that is nat language at any sinse of the world and one might as fairly go and kish his sprogues as fail to certify whether the wartophy eluded at some lives earlier was that somethink like a jug,to what, a coctable)"
Maybe Joyce is admitting the difficulty of the text he has been writing.
Also, I found it interesting that early in the book on page 3 Joyce writes "Eve and Adam," but on page 83 he writes "Adam and Eve."
Probably not anything to that, but I thought it was interesting.
We are getting close to page 100! Woo!
I am now beginning my journey. I hope to maybe catch up to you gusy someday! Wish me luck.
Tyson - Interestingly, on p69, the following line appears:"... garble a garthen of Odin and the lost paladays when all the eddams ended with aves."
I'm not really sure what this sentence means, but I think it's something to do with Eve effectively gambling the Garden of Eden. Again, I'm not sure how this complements the two references you've noted, but I am sure there is some relevance to it.
Matt - Good luck! I for one am really enjoying the read, but not for its plot or characters. The wordplay is rewarding and entertaining, and the poetic feel is just amazing. It also feels like a left-brain work-out. I hope you like it. Enjoy!
I'm so far behind I might be in front. It's hard to tell with this book (and reading on kindle).I have to admit I'm struggling a bit. My biggest reading time is when commuting on trains and tubes, and mostly I need a story to fall into to take me away from standing nose-to-stranger-armpit. I can't fall into Finnegans Wake the way I usually read books - that magic isn't happening for me. Instead it feels more like textbook reading.
I do love the sounds, and the words, and the bat-shit crazy, and the cleverness. I'll give it a bit longer. I'm enjoying reading what everyone else has spotted.
My fave sentence so far is probably 'Though the length of the land lies under liquidation'. I love how that means rain and booze. I love how he can say things without saying them, if you know what I mean.
Jenna-Thanks! I'm having fun with the wording. I'm reading along with it A Skeleton Key to Finnegans Wake, and I love when I understand something before I look to see the meaning. Rider- You still there my friend?
Tyson-Fafrooshia makes more sense.
I fell behind this week and just did a marathon catch-up over the last two days. Whew! This gives me a whole new level of respect for the folks just jumping in at this point and catching up on significantly more pages than I had to. About a million thoughts here. I'll try to pare them down to something marginally sane.
Tyson, I noticed that Adam and Eve as well, and then there's "Alum on Even" on p. 86, which struck me as another reference. I suspect we've been getting more Eden references than I've been noticing throughout the reading. It fits neatly with some of the innocence lost elements we've encountered.
Something I've noticed over the last 8-ish pages is that some of the parentheticals have started taking on a new role--they appear to be in-text glosses, or even the authorial voice stepping in to explain something to us. Here are a couple examples:
"...the miner who was carrying the worm (a handy term for the portable distillery which consisted of three vats, two jars and several bottles though we purposely say nothing of the stiff, both parties having an interest in the spirits)..." (82)
Neat little definition tucked in there, and is that "we" another possible breaking of the fourth wall, or does it refer to some other group that I never caught on to?
Exhibit B:
"...with part of a sivispacem (Gaeltact for dungfork)..." (87)
Celtic for dungfork? I guess I'm curious why the author is choosing to even offer the illusion of clarification to us at this point. There's something comforting in it, but it's also somewhat useless as it still doesn't illuminate plot or character relationships.
It seems we've gotten quite strongly back to war and death over the last few days' pages. I feel like there are hundreds of references that are slipping right past me, but I snagged up on "I hardly knew ye" (82) for a bit. I knew it was close to a line from Hamlet, and it is--in fact, it's one Hamlet speaks to Yorrick's skull--but it's also a line from an anti-war song that was popular in England and Ireland for a while called "Johnny, I Hardly Knew Ye" (which, by the time of the American Civil War, was bastardized/re-made into "When Johnny Comes Marching Home Again"...hardly anti-war at that point). Yes, four words sent me on a 20-minute digression.
What's up with the policemen/women, interrogators, inspectors, courtrooms/trials? I don't think I've marked these passages well, but thinking back over this week's reading, I feel like there are a number of mentions of these non-military (and non-royalty) authority figures. Actually, here's one I marked for several reasons, one of which happens to be related to the policeman/courtroom angle:
"Remarkable evidence was given, anon, by an eye, ear, nose, and throat witness, whom Wesleyan chapelgoers suspected of being a plain clothes priest..." (86)
I'm curious about a few elements here. "eye, ear, nose, and throat" is partly a play on words and an extrapolation of a common phrase (eye witness) out to some absurd extreme version of itself, but these particular additions struck me because isn't ear, nose, and throat a medical specialty? ENT doctor? Would this have been true 80 years ago as well?
Also, the plain clothes priest first sent me to "plain clothes officer", but then I started wondering if it might have another meaning exactly the way it's written--priest switching to plain clothes due to religious persecution maybe? The suspicion of the chapelgoers seems to add some weight to this possibility.
Could this kind of pickapart be done to every sentence in this book? If so, I wonder if it would lead to meaning or even more chaos and less certainty about what's going on in here (is less certainty possible?)
Amidst all the addictive confusion and fun plays on language, this bit (which you've already mentioned, Tyson) stood out to me as potentially being about FW itself and the story we've been trying so diligently to follow: "(in the Nichtian glossery which purveys aprioric roots for aposteriorious tongues this is nat language at any sinse of the world...)" (83)
Nichtian makes me think of both Nietsche and night (nacht?), for whatever that's worth. If I remember right, a priori knowledge is something you can understand without ever experiencing, and a posteriori (sp?) knowledge is something you must experience to understand...but aposteriorious tongues also gets me to the apostles speaking in tongues, which may be an example of something that must be experienced to be understood. But why aprioric roots?
I didn't mean to jump down that particular rabbit hole. Honest. The a priori/a posteriori mention and the statement about "this" not being language in any sinse of the world (sense of the word? also, sense of the world...might connect to the multi-sensory witness) seemed to connect strongly back to the text we're actually reading. That's all I really wanted to say here.
Stopping the madness of this rambly post now with two word mentions that entertained me:
languidoily (83)
lexinction (83)
Cheers.
Is anybody else feeling like, the further you get into Finnegans Wake, the less you actually care about getting it? And that when you do get it, it's almost incidental to the experience? That's sort of happening to me. I'm reading the second page of today's five, and it occurs to me that i'm not as bothered by the fact that i still don't really know what's going on as i'd imagined i would be by now. Maybe this is what people mean when they talk about FW being a new kind of literature. It has to be experienced differently, approached with different expectations.Edit: Or maybe not. I don't know. I certainly think something is happening, and that this something is knowable. I just don't know that that's the point any more.
Nicole wrote: "I'm curious about a few elements here. "eye, ear, nose, and throat" is partly a play on words and an extrapolation of a common phrase (eye witness) out to some absurd extreme version of itself, but these particular additions struck me because isn't ear, nose, and throat a medical specialty? ENT doctor? Would this have been true 80 years ago as well?"Picking up on this point, the whole "eye, ear, nose, and throat" thing makes an appearance again later on:
Pg 88:
"The mixer, accordingly, was bluntly broached, and in the best basel to boot, as to whether he was one of those lucky cocks for whom the audible-visible-gnosible-edible world existed. That he was only too cognitively conatively cogitabundantly sure of it because, living, loving, breathing and sleeping morphomelosophopancreates, as he most significantly did, whenever he thought he heard he saw he felt he made a bell clipperclipperclipperclipper."
Pg 91:
"nevertheless, what was deposited from that eyebold earbig noseknaving gutthroat, he did not fire a stone either before or after he was born down and up to that time."
And i can't help but think this is part of it too, Pg 92:
"Whereas the maidies of the bar... complimenting him, the captivating youth, on his having all his senses about him..."
Day 16, 17 & 18The pages are loaded with material that is worthy of comment, but I’m just going to pick out a few otherwise this post will last forever!
1. A life relived / life foreshadowed (cycle)
I mentioned this in a previous post. Now I am looking for it, I am seeing it everywhere.
“... the same man (or a different and younger him of the same ham)....” (p82)
“... all one with Tournay, Yetstoslay and Temorah...” (p87) [Today, yesterday and tomorrow?]
“It was folded with cunning, sealed with crime, uptied by a harlot, undone by a child.” (p94)
2. Sensory Organs
Similar observations to Nicole’s comments above: there is a recurring theme over a few pages of sensory organs:
“eye, ear, nose and throat” (p86)
“audio-visible-gnosible-edible’ (p88)
“murty odd oogs, awflorated ares, inquiline nase and a twitcherous mouph?” (p88)
I do not know if ENT was a medical specialty at the time that this book was written, but my interest in these sections was largely piqued having learned that James Joyce suffered eye problems whilst writing Finnegans Wake, which required a great deal of medical attention. Now I think about it, there has been rather a lot of lines about eyes over Chapters 3 and 4.
3. Language
“... making use of sacrilegious languages to the defect that he would challenge their hemosphores to exterminate them but she would cannonise the b--y b--r’s life out of him....” (p81) - I think Joyce is drawing attention to the rules he is breaking in language. Interesting play on the word ‘defect’, suggesting that the outcome may be positive or negative. But this language will challenge our minds. The polarity of ‘exterminate’ (destroy) and ‘cannonise’ [canonise? ie make literary law] is also interesting, perhaps suggesting that some of Joyce’s words may be absorbed into mainstream culture, and some may not?
“... aposteriorious tongues this is nat language at any sinse of the world...” (p83) - I echo Tyson’s point above.
“Kersse’s Korduroy Karikature” (p85), Literary Disco’s Klassics Korner, anyone?
“The devoted couple was or were only two disappointed......” (p90) - I think this is play on the question of using singular or plural verbs for collective nouns.
There are many statements on pages 89 and 90 punctuated as questions. Fun with punctuation!
Favourite line: “... himundher manifestation and polarised for reunion by the symphysis of their antipathies.” - (p92)
Him and her. Him under her - sexual
Polarised / antipathies - opposites (male / female)
Reunion - Union, but not for the first time. (cyclical)
Union / symphysis - become one.
While I'm caught up on my reading, I've been thinking a lot about pages 75-83 lately. There seems to be a lot of references to myth and burial there.
For instance on pg. 75 there is "the besieged bedreamt him stil and solely of those lililiths undeveiled," which I suspect is reference the Hebrew myth of Lilith.
Than there is that list on the bottom of pg. 77 that starts with "Show coffins, winding sheets..." that seems to be items needed for a buriel.
On page 77 there is phrase "sheol om sheol." Sheol is the Hebrew bible's underworld. Though when playing with Google translate, it translated "sheol" as the Irish word for “launched” (A pun perhaps?). We also run into sheol again on page 83.
On page 79 the sentence “Ladies did not disdain those pagan ironed times of the first city (called after the ugliest Danadune) when a frond was a friend inneed to carry, earwigs do their dead, their soil to the earthball where indeeth we shall calm decline, our legacy” seems to be referring to obviously the pagan times, but more specifically to the Tuath Dé Danann from the Irish invasion tradition. Later in the paragraph we there is “(lugod! lugodoo!)” which may be a reference to the Irish god Lugh also known as Lug.
I love that in this paragraph we also get a reference to the Venus and Vulcan story from Roman myth.
In some ways, I feel like we were taken into a more mythical underworld. Whether briefly or whether we’re still there, I cannot tell.
Kevin wrote: "Is anybody else feeling like, the further you get into Finnegans Wake, the less you actually care about getting it? And that when you do get it, it's almost incidental to the experience? "Yes. It took me a while to accept the inaccessibility of the plot, but I agree with you absolutely. There's some sort of courtroom trial going on and some story involving a pig, but the richness is in the text. I am enjoying it on a word-by-word basis now. There is simple pleasure in the rhythm of a sentence and the feel of a word. The meaning sits behind the apparent sentences (much of which I really don't recognise, for example the insightful references raised by Jennifer in the post above, simply because I do not know anything about mythology). The plot, I think, is a mere incidental of this book.
Not the only things i noticed today, but at least two that depend on the reader understanding a Scandinavian language:"farfather" on page 95: "farfar" is Scandinavian for "paternal grandfather", being literally "father's father". Also, "farmor", "morfar" and "mormor". You can guess what those mean.
"in the old gammeldags" on page 96: "gammel" is "old" and "dag" is "day", so "in the old olddays".
Ummm... Day 19 and I'm on p100. Have an inkling that I'm a page ahead and somewhere along the line accidentally read 6 pages instead of 5! What page is everyone else on?"... was at best a onestone parable, a rude breathing on the void of to be, a venter hearing his own bauchspeech in backwords, or, more strictly, but tristurned initials, the cluekey to a worldroom beyond the roomwhorld....." (p100)
Parable... backwards speech... backwards words... initials (HCE???)...
Someone posted that they found themselves looking for a key to crack this book. Rider? "Cluekey" feels like a pretty pertinent word!
100 pages in, I'm wondering how people who are using a 'Guide to...' are getting on. So far I've not touched one and have been strict with myself despite being sorely tempted. Can someone who is using a guide tell me if it is worth it? Does it help reveal light on what is being communicated (for example, seems that if you are not multi-lingual, which I am not, there is a lot to miss). Would anyone recommend support-reading from a 'Guide to...'?
Jenna, I've been questioning if I'm on track too. I finished day 19 on the bottom of 102, but I think I'm ahead.I figure since we are reading five pages a day and since the book started on page 3 that if I multiply the day times five an add 3 (Dx5+3), I will have the page I need to get to for that day. Which would mean we should be on page 98 for day 19, but I've been known to miss numbers when counting a series that consist of 10 items, so I may not be the person to trust here.
I used a calculator on this elementary school math equation & I figured I should be on page 98. The bottom of 98, so I guess technically page 99. (We are a literary peoples, we don't need to know math, right?!)I've basically stopped trying to decipher any meaning, and just read. I seem to be "getting it" more (and enjoying more of the book) through osmosis, I think. I stop to appreciate certain words, or a sentence fragment that I totally get, or an entire passage that seems to be told in a specific voice and I just sort of fall into it. I may not always know what whatever I just read means, (okay, I almost always don't know what it means) but I know how it makes me feel. Which is, of course, indescribable.
I feel like maybe that's part of what Joyce is going for; using this amalgamous (I think I made up that word; how Joycean!) language, sense images, and both the personal & universal connotations certain cultural/historical/mythological/etc references have, to explain the unexplainable, or describe the indescribable.
I don't know if that makes any sense, it's a half-formed theory! Lol But he's trying to tell me *something*, I know that much now. I'm listening, JJ!
He said "loungelizards" on p. 101. That caught my attention and made me smile!I just want to thank all of you who have been posting comments on each days' reading. You're providing me with some insights I didn't have on my own and I'm certain I wouldn't enjoy doing this as much without you. I appreciate your contributions immensely!
Mod
Sorry I've been a bit MIA. Work and weddings, etc.
But I wanted to make sure you listen to the episode we posted last night. At the end, I have a discussion with Joyce scholar Michael Seidel, and he offers a LOT of great thoughts.
http://www.literarydisco.com/2013/08/...
Moreover, I sent him a link to this board and he's been really enjoying reading along. He says you're all doing great and to not worry and keep going!
So should anybody be have moments of despair as we move into the next hundred pages (myself included) just know that I think we're doing something right.
He also wanted me direct everybody to the lyrics of the traditional folk song Finnegans Wake, so I'll post them here:
Tim Finnegan lived in Walkin Street,
A gentle Irishman mighty odd
He had a brogue both rich and sweet,
An' to rise in the world he carried a hod
You see he'd a sort of a tipplers way
but for the love for the liquor poor Tim was born
To help him on his way each day,
he'd a drop of the craythur every morn
Whack fol the dah now dance to yer partner
round the flure yer trotters shake
Bend an ear to the truth they tell ye,
we had lots of fun at Finnegan's Wake
One morning Tim got rather full,
his head felt heavy which made him shake
Fell from a ladder and he broke his skull, and
they carried him home his corpse to wake
Rolled him up in a nice clean sheet,
and laid him out upon the bed
A bottle of whiskey at his feet
and a barrel of porter at his head
His friends assembled at the wake,
and Widow Finnegan called for lunch
First she brought in tay and cake,
then pipes, tobacco and whiskey punch
Biddy O'Brien began to cry,
"Such a nice clean corpse, did you ever see,
Tim, auvreem! O, why did you die?",
"Will ye hould your gob?" said Paddy McGee
Then Maggie O'Connor took up the cry,
"O Biddy" says she "you're wrong, I'm sure"
Biddy gave her a belt in the gob
and sent her sprawling on the floor
Then the war did soon engage,
t'was woman to woman and man to man
Shillelagh law was all the rage
and a row and a ruction soon began
Mickey Maloney ducked his head
when a bucket of whiskey flew at him
It missed, and falling on the bed,
the liquor scattered over Tim
Now the spirits new life gave the corpse, my joy!
Tim jumped like a Trojan from the bed
Cryin will ye walup each girl and boy,
t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?"
As you'll hear in the episode, Prof. Seidel truly loves this book, and the struggles and experiences we're all having seem to be par for the course.
-Rider
I must be using the same calculator you are, Donna and Jennifer! Just did my day 20 reading to the bottom of 103 (conveniently also a chapter break), which is where my math says I should be. I don't think being a few pages off one way or the other is a big deal, though (says the girl who keeps falling ten-plus pages behind and then playing catch-up in marathon reading sessions).So, days 19 and 20. There seems to be so much going on here--the courtroom trial appears to have wrapped up now, and we get some post-trial gossip and a woman (affiliated with the trial? my attempts at plot-gathering are fuzzy at best) leaving town all dolled up.
I want to combine HCE and ALP in an anagram game to make a new word because these two sets of initials seem like some kind of important code to understanding...something? Pleach, Plache, Chelap, Cheapl, Chapel, Pachel, Phecal, Celaph (is this a letter of an alphabet?), Caphel, Heclap... Hmmm.
Speaking of venereal disease, there's a whole bit about medicines on p. 102 that I think might be about curing an STD or about making a "cure" for a pregnancy or might be a connection back to the ENT doc talk. Here's the bit: "Wery weeny wight, plead for Morandmor! Notre Dame de la Ville, mercy of thy balmheartzyheat! Ogrowdnyk's beyond herbata tay, wort of the drogist!.... The bane of Tut is on it.... He spenth his strenth amok haremscarems. Poppy Narancy, Giallia, Chlora, Marinka, Anileen, Parme. And ilk a those dames had her rainbow huemoures yet for whilko her whims but he coined a cure."
It's a little choppy and piecemeal, but here's where I'm going with it:
balm-medicine, cure
balmheartzyheat-this may link to the Victorian (and beyond) notion of going to warmer climates as a restorative measure for someone who is ill
OGROWdnyk's, HERBata, wort, drogist, bane-grow, herb, wort and bane (SO many plants have common names that end in "-wort" or "-bane"), druggist...
Then the mention of coining a cure after the harem shenanigans and that list of what might be names of either women or diseases. These things seem to all be part of a conversation about creating an herbal cure. Or this might be another one of those things I made up in my head to feel like part of this makes sense to me.
Jenna, I'm seeing your cycles/repeated cycles now, and I'm not sure if they're more prevalent or I'm just more aware of them because you mentioned them. Examples:
"...till one one and one ten and one hundred again..."(101)
"A human pest cycling (pist!) and recycling (past!) about the sledgy streets, here he was (pust!) again!" (99)
I'm not sure if someone's already mentioned this line from p. 93, but I keep coming back to it: "...King, having murdered all the English he knew..."
English people or English words? Twisty language fun.
Also, the religious references:
1. Another Cain and Abel reference on p. 102: "...and gave him keen and made him able."
2. "tummass equinous" (93)--St. Thomas Aquinas?
3. "You and your gift of your gaft of your garbage abaht our Farvver!" (93)--Our Father? Or a literal father? If the former, may be a link to religious intolerance/persecution (calling it "your garbage"...)
4. "...he caught his paper dispillsation from the poke" (95)--dispensation from the Pope? This one is particularly interesting to me because it comes at the end of a somewhat focused section revolving around the secular courtroom, so to intertwine that courtroom with a dispensation that (I believe...someone correct me if I'm wrong!) only grants reprieve from church/Canon law shows JJ doing the same kind of smash-up with these two types of law that he's been doing with language for the last 100 pages...
5. Finally, we land in Babylon at the end of this chapter. Whore of Babylon, anyone? All kinds of beastly references and metaphors surrounding her...is she the culmination of all the porcine mentions in this last chapter?
Small sidebar: "Hogan hears a hod" (98)--anyone else have a Dr. Seuss moment here?
And just for fun, these are some of my favorite words/phrases from these days:
"sycopanties" (94)
"kool kurkle dusk of the lushiness" (95) Love the way this one sounds!
"envenomoloped in piggotry" (99)
"raxicraxian" (99) (Rosicrucian mention?)
And this gem: "The war is in words and the wood is the world. Maply me, willowy we, hickory he and yew yourselves" (98). I feel like there's a whole conversation/dissection that could happen there, but I really just enjoy the rhythm and flow of those two sentences together.
Thanks, all, for the guidance as to where we should be page-wise. I only read three pages today, so have re-aligned with the group at the chapter break. Either I can't count to five or got so overwhelmed by the language that I forgot how to count to five. Possibly twice. Ugh! Favourite word of the day: "Steploajazzyma" (p102)
OK... am I the only one who didn't realise Finnegans Wake was based on a folk song? D'oh! Thanks, Rider, for posting that.
If anyone's feeling musical and wants the tune...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjbF3y...
Still caught up, still enjoying for the most part, although still not understanding.A bit frustrated at the moment because the 'tesseract' reference (bottom of p100) reminded me of the first time I ran across that word (A Wrinkle in Time), and sent me googling a definition. Now I can't get the different diagrams out of my head. I haven't used any higher math in soooo long, and spatial intelligence is my lowest, and so these 2 and 3d representations of a 4d construct are mind-boggling.
Back on topic.... I'm feeling in the last several days (I think it was there before but I'm feeling it stronger now) that Joyce is repeatedly poking fun (and not in a nice I'm-one-of-you way) at the Irish way of speaking, thinking, story-telling. I think if I were truly Irish (not American of some Irish descent) I might be offended.
Jennifer wrote: "Jenna, I've been questioning if I'm on track too. I finished day 19 on the bottom of 102, but I think I'm ahead.I figure since we are reading five pages a day and since the book started on page 3..."
Here's how i remember it:
The story proper starts on page 3. This means that every day i need to start reading on a page number that ends with either 3 or 8, and finish on a page number that ends with either 7 or 2.
So for example, today, 21 August, i'm starting on page 103, and finishing on page 107. Tomorrow, i start on page 108, and finish on page 112.
Some things i noticed today:Pg. 104:
"haloed be her eve, her singtime sung, her rill be run, unhemmed as it is uneven" resembles part of the opening line of the Lord's Prayer, "Hallowed by thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven."
Pg. 105:
"Funnycoon's Week" is obviously "Finnegans Wake".
"From the Rise of the Dudge Pupublick to the Fall of the Potstille" = "From the rise of the Dutch Republic to the fall of the Bastille".
"Unique Estates of Amessican" - United States of America. Particularly apt because the English word "State" has its origins in the Old French word "estat", or "estate". Hence also the contemporary French word "État", as in "Coups d'état", and "États-Unis d'Amérique".
Pg. 106:
"Norsker Torsker". "Norsk" means "Norwegian" in the three Scandinavian languages. Hence "Nynorsk", one of two official written standards for the Norwegian language, meaning literally "New Norwegian".
"Lumptytumtumpty had a Big Fall" brings to mind the first chapter with its Humpty Dumpty references.
"His is the House that Malt Made" = "This is the house that Jack built"?
Three replies in a row! I hope nobody minds me spamming the thread! Decided to have an early start today because i know i'll be busy the rest of the day.If the opening of chapter 5 didn't make it clear enough, i think we're reading now about a woman, the Eve to HCE's Adam. Lots of feminine pronouns all over the place, not to mention references to hens and eggs.
Other things i noticed today:
Pg 108:
ECH: Elberfeld's Calculating Horses
HCE: Hear! Calls! Everywhair!
"To conclude purely negatively from the positive absence of political odia and monetary requests that its page cannot ever have been a penproduct of a man or woman of that period or those parts is only one more unlookedfor conclusion leaped at, being tantamount to inferring from the nonpresence of inverted commas (sometimes called quotation marks) on any page that its author was always constitutionally incapable of misappropriating the spoken words of others."
Is somebody being accused of being dishonest about being responsible for some product of writing?
Pg 109:
"dynasdescendance" - Love this word
"Yet to concentrate solely on the literal sense or even the psychological content of any document to the sore neglect of the enveloping facts themselves circumstantiating it is just as hurtful to sound sense (and let it be added to the truest taste)..."
Am i the only one who feels like they are being cautioned about reading FW too literally here? Maybe we need to start thinking also about what deeper meanings are being communicated.
Pg 111:
"she was scratching at the hour of klokking twelve" - One of those moments of delight when my (minimal) knowledge of Swedish pays off. "Klockan tolv" is how you say "Twelve o'clock" in Swedish, and i suspect the other two main Scandinavian languages as well, with minor differences in pronunciation and spelling.
Pg 112:
"The quad gospellers" - Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?
"Janiveer" - January. "Janvier", en français.
No worries about the multiple posts, Kevin. Although, I think you may be a good chunk ahead of me time-zone-wise... I'm trying not to read your notes on tomorrow's reading too thoroughly yet! Well, tomorrow for me, anyway. Although, come to think of it, I'm not sure why reading tomorrow's notes would be problematic, really. It's not like you're giving plot spoilers.
And I also think you may be right about the math. I remember being a day behind somehow on day 1 because I only read to the bottom of 7 and everyone else read to the bottom of 8.
Anyway, today's reading:
Yes to everything you said, Kevin! The Lord's Prayer bit at the beginning primed me to look for other bits of TLP throughout the section, but I didn't find any. I was hoping JJ would at least sneak in something resembling the valley of the shadow of death. Alas.
The house that Jack built has popped up a few times now, I think. Someone else noted it early on, and I've got a "house Jack built" note in my margin on p. 80 next to the phrase, "the ward of the wind that lightened the fire that lay in the wood that Jove built." That, Humpty Dumpty, London Bridge...any other nursery rhyme/kiddie song references so far? These are interesting to me, but I'm not sure what they mean.
Oh! Yes, there are more! On p. 104, "Rockabill Booby in the Wave Trough" = rockabye baby in the treetop, I think, AND "Peter Peopler Picked a Plot to Pitch his Poppolin" (same page) = Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers? Two more to potentially add to the list of children's rhyme mentions.
So, 104 is ripe with children's songs and possibly romance (is "Amoury Treestam and Icy Siseule" a Tristan and Isolde reference?), but then 105 takes a darker turn. We get "Winnowing sheet" = winding sheet, the somewhat macabre idea of a ventriloquist marrying a corpse, and possibly a return to war (is "Waherlow" Waterloo?)
We also get the wonderful entry of "Lapps for Finns this Funnycoon's Week." I agree that "Funnycoon's Week" must be a reference to the book title, but I think the phrase also nods at the cycles Jenna's been noticing for a bit now--laps for Finns? If the whole book is a continuous loop, at some point Finn must be alive again in order to fall off that ladder again...so isn't he in a sense poised to do laps between life/death/life/death ad infinitum (or until we close the book, I guess)?
Possible literary references:
The Tristan and Isolde already mentioned (if assuming Shakespeare's version. Isn't there also an opera?)
p. 106 - "O'Donough, White Donough" = Whitman? Oh captain, my captain?
p. 106 - "The Last of the Fingallians" = The Last of the Mohicans? Plus another Finn reference?
Two general observations:
1. This set of pages felt as though it had distinct movements in a smaller space than I've felt here before--the kid references/possible romance of 104, death and maybe reincarnation on 105, literature on 106...
2. The more of this I read, the more I wonder if it's possible to read too much into it. Sometimes I feel like I'm really grasping at things that would be pure coincidence in another text, but the structure and deliberate wordplay of this one makes me feel like every possible meaning is intended.
Favorite word of the day: "bewilderblissed" (p. 107)
Nicole wrote: "No worries about the multiple posts, Kevin. Although, I think you may be a good chunk ahead of me time-zone-wise... I'm trying not to read your notes on tomorrow's reading too thoroughly yet! Well,..."Yeah.. I'm 12 hours ahead of EDT, and 15 hours ahead of PDT. That and i like to do my reading in the early to mid morning. Which is why back when this whole thing started i seriously considered skipping a day myself, since otherwise i'd be perpetually a day ahead of everybody else. I suspect most people here are in America?
Kevin wrote: "Here's how i remember it:The story proper starts on page 3. This means that every day i need to start reading on a page number that ends with either 3 or 8, and finish on a page number that ends with either 7 or 2.
So for example, today, 21 August, i'm starting on page 103, and finishing on page 107. Tomorrow, i start on page 108, and finish on page 112.
..."
That's exactly how I remember it, too!
Also, no problem with multiple postings, IMHO.
I don't think Joyce meant it this way, but at the top of 108, I took the "Now patience" sentence as an admonition to readers, :o).I really enjoyed the flow of pages 108 - 112. So much so that I could not continue to note every single thing that brought a smile or sense of pleasure.
At top of 111, a dual a duel to die to day reminded me of a vocal warmup used by my old community theatre group:
What a to-do to die today, at a minute or two to two;
A thing distinctly hard to say, but harder still to do.
Day 23 Is a letter being written? Two quotes regarding writing (letters?) struck me:
“But by writing thithaways end to end and turning, turning and end to end hithaways writing and with lines of litters slittering up and louds of latters slettering down... where in the waste is the wisdom?” (p114)
“And it is surely a lesser ignorance to write a word with every consonant too few then to add all too many. The end? Say it with missiles then and thus arabesque the page.” (p115)
These both draw attention to a certain absurdity in written language. Perhaps the very thing that Joyce is challenging. I absolutely love the concept of ‘say it with missiles’ (aggressive, hostile, violent) and ‘arabesque the page’ (ballet, elegant, beautiful, powerful). Maybe suggesting that the most effective or beautiful way to say something is directly and forcefully.
Speaking of saying something directly.....
Sex and incest.
The second half of P115 is all about sex. And (I don’t think) not just any form of sex. My interpretation (may be wrong) is that we are looking at incest between a father (“farther”, (p115) “father” (p115)) and the “easily freudened” daughter (p115). (Incidentally, Freud as a verb that sounds like ‘frightened’... love it!).
Particularly disturbing to me was the passage about the girl deliberately falling off a bike so that she can be comforted, and the sexual undertones in the descriptions.
“And, speaking anent Tiberias and other incestuish salacities among gerontophils, a word of warning about the tenderloined passion hinted at. Some softnosed peruser might mayhem take it up erogenously as the usual case of spoons, prostituta in herba plus dinky pinks deliberately summersaulting off her bisexycle...” (p115)
salacities - indecent enjoyment of sexual acts
gerontophils - gerontic / phile - attraction to someone older?
tenderloined / erogenously / bisexycle - sexual
incestuish - incest
prostituta in herba - fertile / in season????
The comfort given is also creepy:
“who picks her up as gingerly as any balmbearer would to feel whereupon the virgin was most hurt...” (p115)
I may be reading it wrong, but it also seems like any untoward action on the part of the father is justified as the fault of the endocrine system (hormones) and nympholepsy (passion roused by a young girl), while the girl’s action is described as deliberate and almost predatory.
Mention of Freud (well renowned for theories in which sexual development starts with a sexual attachment to a parent), “inverted parentage”, “preposessing drauma [drama / trauma] in her past”, “priapic [phallic] urge for congress with agnates [biological descendants?]” (all p115) all seem to point to incest to me.
All of this leads me to ask, whose voice is the current narrator? Is it ALP? And is HCE the aforementioned father? I was very interested to hear Rider’s interview with Professor Seidel, during which he mentioned the importance of the family dynamic. I wonder if this is a glimpse of some of that dynamic.
Speaking of the interview, something else was said that has MASSIVELY piqued my interest, but I need to do a bit of research before saying anything. Does anyone have access to a FIRST EDITION of Finnegans Wake? If so, I’d like to pick your brains and would be very grateful if you could help me.
Kevin, you're right on the pages ending in 2 or 7. Thanks for helping me get things straight.Nicole, I've been noticing the nursery rhymes too. I wonder if they are a bit of a key. Often, but with a lot of exceptions, nursery rhymes have no deeper meaning (or the deeper meaning has been lost to time). These rhymes survive because people just like the sound of the words. I wonder (or maybe want to believe) that Joyce is reminding us not to get to got up on the meaning. Or maybe he doesn't care about us and is having fun with the words.
Jenna, I didn't see the incest angle, but now that you pointed it out it seems obvious. I also noted the "fruadened" use as frightened.
I was really struck by the sentence on page 15, "So, pray, sign anything as long as every word, letter, penstroke, paperspace is a perfect signature of its own?" It makes me think—and I not sure if this is what Joyce indented—of how works of art use to be anonymous and would stand on their own, but nowadays (you know since the renaissance) we have become more and more focused on the artist, and the artist's reputation, instead of the work itself. As with everything in the book this probably reveals more about my own obsessions than it does the book.
Kevin, I can't speak for other folks on here, but I'm at a distinct time disadvantage--America AND West Coast, but it means I get to sneak-peek some earlier thoughts from folks and often they expand my reading (and limited understanding) in very cool ways.Stephanie, for the last several days I've been mulling over your previous comment about the possibility that JJ is mocking the Irish language. At first, I felt pretty neutral about it because written-out dialect, even when well-done/consistent/true to speech, often reads like a caricature to me. I thought the moments where I was feeling the caricature in this read were just more examples of that same experience. BUT. Today we got this line: "And it is surely a lesser ignorance to write a word with every consonant too few than to add all too many" (115). I think on one level this is related to the letter that seems to be being written over pages 111-116ish, but it may also be a nod to your theory, as the moments when it most feels he may be poking fun at the spoken language are when he goes a little heavy on the vowel additions and drops final consonants. Definitely a stretch, but it reminded me of your post...and even the stretch theories seem fairly likely in FW, so thought I'd add this quote to the mix.
Nursery rhymes... I mostly agree with you, Jennifer, that these are silly and nonsensical and potentially a reminder to just have fun with the language, but they're also a reminder of childhood and innocence, which seems to dovetail in kind of creepy ways with the incesty loss of innocence hinted at in this chapter. I honestly think they do both kinds of work here. And probably six other things we haven't even noticed yet.
A couple folks now have mentioned the "...yung and easily freudened" quote on p. 115. The Freud reference is clear, and relevant because he was big on the idea that everyone wants to play the incest game in some way. I think the "yung" also refers to Jung, who had his own set of theories about incest (everybody wants to play, but for different reasons than Freud says). Even Joyce's incest references have layers of genius. Good grief.
Jenna, yes to the letter references! There's about a four-page section that seems to be a written response to a letter received on p. 111. At least, that's how I'm reading it. So many references to the written word, letters, pen, paper, "these ruled barriers along which the traced words, run, march, halt, walk, stumble" (114... talking about writing on lined--ruled--paper?), possibly a reference to a wax seal on p. 115 ("your taper's waxen drop"), and the bizarre line on the bottom of 115, "'Tis as human a little story as paper could well carry..." which implies the paper is carrying that story somewhere (as a letter would). Although, who would write this particular story and send it to someone else and what the purpose might be in that action is another question entirely.
What else? Another Tristan and Isolde reference on p. 113, "Treestone with one Ysold"
Another children's rhyme bit on p. 112, "pick a peck of kindlings" followed by "auld hensyne" (Auld Lang Syne?)
Brief side note: All the women-as-hens references!! I remember my German great grandfather calling chatting groups of women "clucking hens", but haven't encountered the metaphor in literature before. I guess I didn't realize it was a (possibly?) common one at some point... has anyone else seen/heard this phrasing before?
And this amazing word: "adamologists" (113)--Adam (of Garden of Eden fame) meets etymologists? Scholars who study only the history of the word "Adam"? I kind of love it.
So, I had to play catch up this morning because I had a really busy week. I love the manifesto titles on pages 104-107. I was laughing out loud for the first time in over 100 pages.
I don't really have any incite to the pages I just read, but I just really love the language. I feel like I am reading a really beautiful, confusing poem.
I find that even though I don't know what I'm reading I almost get intoxicated with the language. It's like I get transported to an alternate universe or something. I totally zone out when I'm reading. I love this effect.
Keep reading friends!
Today we cross over from Chapter I.5 to Chapter I.6. I.5 seemed to have started as some kind of prayer to a woman, i suppose ALP, and then ended as some kind of analysis of a text. I.6 seems to begin with a quiz.Here's what i noticed today:
Pg 123:
"ulykkhean" - Probably "Ulyssean", but i also read it as "ukulelean". =P
"Tung-Toyd" - Tongue-tied.
"book of Morses" - Book of Moses.
Pg 124:
"bi tso fb rok engl a ssan dspl itch ina" - "bits of broken glass and split china."
"the Kvinnes country" - "The Queen's country". But also, note that the English word "queen" derives from an old Norse word, the equivalent of "kvinne" in today's Norwegian, that means "woman". So this could be both "the Queen's country" and simply "the woman's country".
Pg 126:
"Who do you do tonigh, lazy and gentleman?" - "How do you do tonight, ladies and gentlemen?
"rated one hundrick and thin per storehundred on this nightly quisquiquock of the twelve apostrophes" - Apparently this Shaun Mac Irewick (Shaun MacEarwicker? = Shaun, son of Earwicker) scored 110 out of a possible 100 on a nightly quiz on the 12 apostles. Impressive!
"secondtonone myther rector and maximost bridges-maker" - The first question of the quiz seems to have to do with the identity of the second-to-none (i.e. first) myth erector (story teller?), who also makes bridges, and does a whole bunch of the things, which the book then goes on to list for the next 14 pages. Very productive fellow.
"liffeyette" - "Lafayette". Frenchman who was also involved somehow in the American Revolutionary War. Not being American and not having studied American history, that is the full extent of my knowledge on this guy.
Pg 127:
"trues and fauss" - "true and false"
"is escapemaster-in-chief from all sorts of houdingplaces" - A reference to the escape-artist (and master, i suppose) Houdini.
"oxhide or Iren" - Oxide of iron. Btw, not sure if this has to do with anything, but ask a German to pronounce the English word "iron", and there's a good chance he'll pronounce it precisely "iren".
Kevin wrote: ""bi tso fb rok engl a ssan dspl itch ina" - "bits of broken glass and split china."."I would have absolutely missed this if you hadn't posted it before I read it.
Thank you for that and all the others you've listed. :)
So, I feel like we are now being properly introduced to Shem (who wrote / co-wrote the letter???) and Shaun. They're the brothers, right? I know they've been mentioned already in the text but I don't recall much about either of them.
Next five pages ahoy!
Jenna wrote: "Day 23 Is a letter being written? Two quotes regarding writing (letters?) struck me:
“But by writing thithaways end to end and turning, turning and end to end hithaways writing and with lines of..."
Hi Jenna,
I think I have the first edition. It is a library copy. On the inside flap it states "First Regular Edition. $5.00. If you want me to look something up, let me know and I will.
Ruthiella wrote: "Hi Jenna,I think I have the first edition. It is a library copy. On the inside flap it states "First Regular Edition. $5.00. If you want me to look something up, let me know and I will."
I'll private message you! :)
With the weekend's reading, I was really intrigued with the section round-about p118 (too lazy this morning to pinpoint the exact beginning and ending points) that concerned the editing and re-editing of written texts over time. JJ seemed to need to emphasize the potential for errors and changes, similar to the 'telephone game' concept. His message seems especially or wholly directed at texts that were copied by hand prior to the printing press, and the bible in particular.Over the last few days, favorite phrase and word:
p120, seated with such floprightdown determination
p128, faunonfleetfoot
I was just coming on here to complain that I haven't understood a single thing since I.6 started, then I read Kevin's comments. Allow me to just say, "Ohhhhhhh!!" Thank you!! That was extremely helpful! I didn't get any of that. (Let's blame it on the NyQuil, ok?) Also, all the comments about nursery rhymes reminded me of this odd little passage from p117:
"such is manowife's lot of lose and win again, like he's gruen quhiskers on who's chin again, she plucketed them out but they grown in again. So what are you going to do about it? "
Ever since I mentioned to my mom that I was reading Finnegans Wake, she's been singing this old song that she knew when she was a kid. I, naturally, tried to ignored her A) because she has a bizarre song you've never heard of for every occasion, and B) it's an annoying song, but I guess I should've been paying attention, cuz here's her song:
"There once was a man named Michael Finnegan
He had whiskers on his chinnegan
Shaved them off but they grew in ag'in
Poor old Michael Finnegan (begin ag'in!)"
It's kind of like one of those songs that kids sing that can go on forever, like Henry The Eighth I Am, and the words in the 2nd & 3rd lines change a little. (Plucked them out, wind blew them in again, etc.)
So I thought that was kinda weird & awesome, tripping over something I actually recognised. A nice feeling every now & then in this book!
To pick up on what a couple of you were saying earlier, about Joyce mocking, or satirising, Irish speech or culture, (Stephanie & I can't remember who else! Sorry!) I've been sort of picking up that same vibe. I don't know much about Joyce, other than he lived outside of Ireland for a substantial part of his life, and I *think* that includes while writing FW. I don't know how he felt towards Ireland, so I can't tell if he's sort of poking fun in that way that you can when you're part of what you're poking fun at, or if he's looking down on them. Sometimes I feel a little disdain, but I could just be 100% interpreting wrong or allowing some bias of my own to alter the way I'm perceiving things.
But anyway! To sum up: was doing quite well until I.6. Now I need someone to hold my hand & walk me through it. :)
Okay. Pretty busy today so i'll keep this quick.Pg. 134:
"the king was in his cornerwall melking mark so murry, the queen was steep in armbour feeling fain and furry, the mayds was midst the hawthorns shoeing up their hose, out pimps the back guards (pomp!) and pump gun they goes"
Am i the only one who read these lines in the tune of Sing a Song of Sixpense? Specifically the lines,
The king was in his counting house,
Counting out his money;
The queen was in the parlor,
Eating bread and honey.
The maid was in the garden,
Hanging out the clothes,
When down came a blackbird
And pecked off her nose.
And the award for the longest sentence in the world goes to.......Twelve pages and counting! Had a sneaky look ahead. The sentence which started the day before yesterday and has continued throughout today is fourteen pages long!
Mind. Blown.
So a bunch of Scandinavian references today. (I tend to notice these things because i was on exchange in Stockholm a couple of years back and went crazy educating myself in Scandinavian mythology and of course, language, since i'm a linguist).On pg 139, for example, we have farfar and morefar, which on the one hand might read "very far and even further than that" or something, but on the other hand also means "paternal grandfather and maternal grandfather" in the Scandinavian languages. I mentioned this before.
Then there's spoorwaggen on pg 141, which is probably "spårvagn", Swedish for "tram". The double "o"s also make me think this might also work in Dutch, or at least some Low German languages.
Finally, further down the same page we have "irer's langurge, jublander or northquain", which i read as "Irishmen's language, Jutlander or Norwegian". "Jutlander" and "Norwegian" just from the way the words sound, "Irishmen" because that's precisely what "irer" means in Norwegian.
One more thing that's pretty huge. Earlier on on pg 137, we saw a reference to "Lund's kirk". This literally translates to "Lund's church" in the Scandinavian languages. If you go to the Wikipedia page for Lund Cathedral (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lund_Cat...) and look under "The Crypt", you see this:
"Local legend tells that the figure is Finn the Giant, builder of the cathedral. Another column has a similar sculpture of a woman, the wife of Finn according to legend."
If you then follow the link for "Finn the Giant", you get this:
"Fin is a troll in a legend from Kalundborg, Zealand, Denmark. The legend also exists in Sweden, but it instead has a giant from Lund (before 1658 in Denmark), with the name Jätten Finn ("Finn the Giant"). The legend about Fin also exists in the genuine Sweden (that wasn't Denmark). There are suggestions on a connection to the Celtic myth of Fionn mac Cumhaill."
And finally if you follow the link for "Fionn mac Cumhaill", you get,
"Fionn mac Cumhaill (/ˈfɪn məˈkuːl/ fin mə-KOOL; Irish pronunciation: [ˈfʲin̪ˠ mˠakˠ ˈkuːw̃əlːʲ];[1] Old Irish: Find mac Cumail or Umaill), transcribed in English as Finn McCool or Finn MacCoul, was a mythical hunter-warrior of Irish mythology, occurring also in the mythologies of Scotland and the Isle of Man."
"Finn MacCool" is the answer given on pg 139to first question, which began on pg 126 "What secondtonone myther rector and maximost bridgesmaker..." So it was not just bridges he was building.
This one i stumbled upon pretty much by accident. I almost visited Lund Cathedral myself when i was in Sweden. Of course i had to look it up when i ran across it in Finnegans Wake!
Stepping away from the Scandinavian references, i really liked the sentence that ended today's 5 pages:
"They war loving, they love laughing, they laugh weeping, they weep smelling, they smell smiling, they smile hating, they hate thinking, they think feeling, they feel tempting, they tempt daring, they dare waiting, they wait taking, they take thanking, they thank seeking, as born for lorn in lore of love to live and wive by wile and rile by rule of ruse 'reathed rose and se hol'd home, yeth cometh elope year, coach and four, Sweet Peck-at-my-Heart picks one man more.
Day 28 and 29Lots of HCEs. I especially enjoy the less obvious ones such as “hears cricket on the earth”, “has come through all the eras” (both p138) and “combarative embottled history” (p140)
Favourite sentence: “If Dann’s dane, Ann’s dirty, if he’s plane she’s purty, if he’s fane, she’s flirty, with her auburnt streams, and her coy cajoleries, and her dabblin drolleries, for to rouse his rudderup, or to drench his dreams.” (p139)
I love the polarities here: plain v pretty, traditional v flirty
I love the analogy of land (“plane”) verses water (“streams”, “cajole”, “dabblin”, “drench”)
And the resulting boat metaphor “rouse his rudderup” - rudder up / sexual arousal?
“Auburnt streams” - auburn / flame-coloured hair - SHE’S A REDHEAD????!!! High-five! :)
The paragraph on the top of p141 mentions a number of Irish towns and counties: Mayo, Tuam, Sligo, Galway.
On page 143 there is a mention of “throughout the eye of a noodle”. This reminded me of a quote on p120 which I underlined in the book but never mentioned on this board:
“... to make a ghimel pass through the eye of an iota.”
First of all, this is referencing Hebrew and Greek lettering. Gimel - third letter of Hebrew alphabet, and iota - ninth letter of the Greek alphabet. Three and nine (3x3) again. Interesting. Anyway... potentially another reference (supporting the point made by Stephanie a few days ago) of the importance of accurate transcription of the bible.
It also refers back to a biblical passages that goes something like: ‘it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven’.
I seem to recall that ‘the eye of the needle’ could be read either as a metaphor for the tiny eye of a sewing needle, or a low gate in Jerusalem named ‘The Eye of the Needle’, which camels had to bend their knees to move underneath. I don’t actually know if such a gate exists or if it was some sort of parable.
Camels seem to be referenced in Finnegans Wake a lot (I’ve picked out a few of many in previous posts).
Great word: “collideorscape” (p143) - kaleidoscope / collide or escape
“Jolio and Romeune” (p144) - Romeo and Juliet / tragic love
“Delightsome simply! Like Jolio and Romeune. I haven’t felt so turkish for ages and ages! Mine’s me of squisious, the chocolate with a soul. Extraordinary!” (p144) - Anyone else now really craving turkish delight in chocolate?
“Did a weep get past the gates of your pride?” (p145) Fantastic line.
“A ring a ring a rosaring” (P147) - another nursery rhyme reference - Ring a Ring of Roses
Finally, I think I am going a little crazy because I laughed for an eternity over the list of names on p147, which runs through the entire alphabet, ending....:
“.... Xenia, Yva, Zulma, Phoebe, Thelma. And Mee!”
Days 30 & 31“As my explanations here are probably above your understanding, lattlebrattons... I shall revert to a more expletive method which I frequently use when I have to sermo with muddlecrass pupils.” (p152)
Whilst I get that these are the words of a Professor, directed at “students of mixed hydrostatics and pneumodipsics [who] will after some difficulties grapple away with [his] meinungs [meaning]” (p151), I was hoping for such an explicit explanation or the “easyfree translation” (p152) as promised... for us, the readers, because I for one am finding chapter 6 and its question-answer format especially difficult to grasp.
Having said that, I was really interested in the story of the Mookse and the Gripes and in trying to make sense of it, turned to my good friend, Google. In doing so, I came across this site:
http://duszenko.northern.edu/joyce/re...
There are some fascinating insights into the Mookse and the Gripes towards the bottom of the page. Link here:
http://duszenko.northern.edu/joyce/re...
Something I find of particular interest (beyond the obvious angle of this site) is the differing roles represented by Shem and Shaun. In this case, space and time. Also, letter-writer and letter-carrier. I'm keen to see how the Shem / Shaun roles develop, as characters and as allegories.
Okay. I'm a little more lost than usual, but word vomiting on Goodreads sometimes helps me sort through these things, so I'm going to try talking through it here.At the end of 1.6, here's what I think I've just read:
In 1.5, we get an introduction to Shem, the letter writer. Distinguishing characteristics: lots of literary references, particularly heavy on the Shakespeare (although does this really distinguish it from other parts of FW?); lots of nursery rhyme bits; seems to focus more inward on a family story (however bizarre that story may be), which includes a number of mentions of Finn himself and a possible nod or two to the book as a whole; and the contemporary psychology bits we've already hashed over some.
In 1.6, we get in intro to Shaun. He's a little rowdier, maybe, out at some kind of show or pub and the whole quiz thing...not sure what to make of the call-and-response format of this section yet; after first few pages, this section seems to move away from existing nursery rhyme references, instead choosing to create and embellish its own fables (at least, I'm reading these as invented--haven't clicked through on your links yet, Jenna. They may very well prove my theories bunk!); large chunks of botanical plant names; mathematical references; more biblical and mythological references than 1.5, and possibly more historical as well (theories abound below).
Things they have in common that I found interesting: Exactly one Rosicrucian mention in each (that I caught, anyway); Tristan and Isolde references; apparent fascination with endings and beginnings/births and deaths...possibly analogous references to different types of battles? Micro-scale in 1.5, looking at the family level, and more macro-scale in 1.6, looking at the Roman Empire?
I have no idea what these similarities or differences mean, and I'm probably missing about 97% of what's really going on here.
Nitty-gritty (from p. 157 through today's pages):
On p. 157, we meet Nuvoletta, who seems to be part Narcissus, part shimmery child-goddess (totally picturing the princess from Neverending Story when I read this bit). The Gripes seems to get a short straw when it comes to girls, in this scene at least (although I'm not convinced Mookse fares any better, really). Joyce calls the Gripes "schystimatically auricular" (p. 157) (when N tries to get him to hear her apparently formidable coyness), which connects to both "schismatic" and "systematic" in my brain, and auricular seems likely to have something to do with hearing, so... consistently split/divided hearing?
On the next page, the Gripes seems unable to respond to Nuvoletta's supernatural beauty/presence--"the Gripes, a doubliboused Catalick, wis pinefully obliviscent." I can't parse the "doubliboused" yet (devout, maybe?), but otherwise it seems to translate to, "the Gripes, a ____ Catholic, was painfully oblivious."
In a couple of spots, I wonder if there's some connection we're supposed to draw between the Mookse/Gripes bit and the Crusades, but I don't have anything concrete enough to back this up.
Page 158 sent me into spasms of awesome because botanical names of bog, marginal, and water plants are something I actually know fairly well. Arundo!!! Arundo is a genus that includes quite a few plants, most of them reeds, but the most common (in my little corner of the world, anyway), is Arundo donax, which is a tall, fast-growing (and -spreading) reed that is native to the Mediterranean (hence the common name I know it by: Mediterranean Reed, although it has many other common names). It's such an aggressive grower that it's on the U.S. Federal Noxious Weeds list for quite a few states. Much more importantly, it's also speculated to be the plant most likely to have hidden baby Moses at the edge of the Nile quite a few years back. Which I find pretty dang interesting because p. 158-59 seems to be reimagining the tale of Moses through Mookse and the Gripes, with two "infants" being taken from riverbanks by different women (twins? Does this illustrate something about Shem and Shaun's different roles?)
We get a long list of botanical references from the bottom of 159 to the middle of 160, although most (I'm thinking all, actually) of these are trees: mahogany, pine, umbrella (umbrella palm?), weeping beech, butternut, sweet gum, ash, hawthorn, plane, lodgepole, pine (again), acacia, hickory, arborvitae.
Are Burrus and Caseous Brutus and Caesar? This is how I'm reading them, but, other than the minor name similarities and one actual mention each of Caesar, Cleopatra, and Anthony in the section about B and C, I don't have a good reason for reading them this way.
Pages 164-66 have a bundle of math references: undistributed middle, isocelating biangle, Rhomba (rhombus) and Trabezond (trapezoid), reduced to 3/9, solotions...
Also, there's an interesting twin reference at the top of p. 164, "Positing, as above, too males pooles, the one the pictor of the other and the omber the Skotia of the one..."
If one is the picture/image of the other, we're looking at identical twins, yes? Are Shem and Shaun identical? I don't remember if we know this or not, but it seems as likely as not (and I can't help reading this as a Shem/Shaun reference, even though it may also have other layers of meaning). Also, I looked up "omber" -- which is both a card game and a commonly found ore when mining -- and "Skotia" -- which is apparently a Greek word found in the New Testament that means something akin to "dark, darkness, shadowy, the shadow in the cavity." So, one brother is the darkness or shadow of the other, figuratively speaking, anyway, if S and S are to be read as analogous with Cain and Abel... which I'm not positive about, but I feel primed to read it this way with all the C and A references we've encountered so far.
That might be all the spinning my brain can handle for one post. I wonder what new madness 1.7 will bring?
Happy reading!
Mod
I've now decided that doing this challenge literally as a Wake Up is the best: i.e., reading my five pages as the first thing I do when I open my eyes. Something about the brain state in those moments actually makes FW easier to digest.
Amazing reading all around. You guys are finding so much that I'm just completely missing.
In general, now that I've given up on any semblance of plot, I feel like the hardest part is understanding the transition from one "voice" or tone to another. If I miss that transition, or if I don't understand the entry point, everything starts to feel muddled.
For instance, that Finn McCool section (126-139) was really, really hard for me. I just didn't understand that we were getting a description/history of a figure (in the form of a question) and so it just started to feel like a prison of words with no sentence or paragraph breaks. But looking back at it now, I can see how it sort of operates on this mythic, Irish-everyman-everyhistory-heroic epic style, listing great deeds and great foibles in the same bombastic tone (at least that's what I think now). And knowing that tonal approach makes individual lines funnier, or more interesting, or at least puts individual moments into a perspective.
In other words, its kind of essential to know when a digression is a digression, or what it is a digression FROM. Way more important to me now than "getting" what's actually, um, happening. Because there will always be funny/smart/puzzling words and lines, but I'm trying to locate them (and myself) in the same way I would locate individual instruments within a huge symphony that is being played. So to extend that analogy further -- if I know a chapter started with a flute solo, then it's properly shocking when the drums kick in, properly stunning when the string section bursts in with some fast paced warmth, properly funny when I hear a bassoon blow…otherwise it all feels like loud dissonance blasting over me.
Which I guess is a very complicated way of saying I'm past looking for "answers" in terms of content, and now am focused more on context.
This Shem section that we began today is refreshing. Clearer within sentences. So I feel like that opening paragraph (169) tells us the goal for the next few pages: telling Shem's history but making it a "hybrid" of truth and untruth. Then we get his body description, then move to food, which leads us to…wine? "sour grapejuice" "sedimental" (171).
I got the feeling he's anti-Irish in terms of his food and drink tastes, so wine is part of his "lowness" that makes him a "tragic jester."
Obviously, the Voice here is pretty harsh about Shem. Gets more colloquial and harsh as it goes, too.
Does anybody have a read on "he was in his bardic memory low" (172)?
From the jabs about his tastes and the rest of that paragraph, I glean there's some political/religious betrayals on Shem's part. At least according to the Voice right now.
Unless we're not talking about Shem anymore?
Favorite word: trektalk
Favorite phrase: gullible's travels
Oh, also...I'm ending every day at the bottom of either a 3 or an 8. Does that mean I am off from everybody else? I've been confused by some of the number discussions.
Michael Seidel dropped by this board a few days ago and he encouraged me to encourage you.
In particular, that you're picking up perfectly that Joyce IS messing with Irish speech. And that there's major incest themes throughout. Also, he had these specific points, on which I'll quote him verbatim:
"The "letter" is Finnegans Wake, and its description in part a parody of the Tunc page of the Book of Kells, an illuminated irish manuscript. The idea is that the new language of FW looks and feels like scribblings all over the page.
One [of you on this board] got that the four gospellers are customers in the bar.
Another figured the loops and laps in the book: represented by all the double oo's in the book: thousands of them. oo is infinity sign and sign for public toiltets in Europe."
He called you all "impressive."
I agree.
-Rider
Rider-You have the page numbers correct. I always end on a 3 or 8 as well.
I totally agree with what you said about the morning state of mind. It is so much easier to enjoy and understand this book when I first wake up.
-Tyson
Days 34, 35 & 36I confess: I am finding 1.7 difficult. Not because it’s tough to read, but because this is the first time I have a really strong sense of a character. ALP had a lot of focus, but was very much told through metaphor. HCE.... I couldn’t keep up with the character elements due to the confusing tangents. Shaun won a quiz. That’s the extent of my knowledge of him. But Shem.... I am completely torn between gut-clenching revulsion and surges of sympathy.
So... Shem.
Shem is identified in the first line of the chapter as being a joke. A cartoonish description is followed by lines such as “tragic jester” (p171) and “blunderguns” (p173).
Shem is also likened to ‘shame’.
“Shem was a sham” (p170)
“nameless shamelessness” (p182)
The house O’Shea or O’Shame” (p182)
I am curious as to the story-teller. Whose words are these descriptions? Society’s? The Earwicker family’s? An omniscient narrator? Or Shem’s himself? Shame is quite a personal experience, so I wonder if we are seeing the Shem through the distorted view of a mirror.
Hmm. Mirror. That brings me to another thought.
I am curious about the word “hybrid” in the first paragraph of p169. Hybrid - a whole made by combining two halves. Shem and Shaun are twins, right? Nicole used the term ‘one brother is the darkness or shadow of the other’ and this brought to mind Jung’s theory of The Shadow - the dark unconscious which exists within us all / the source of creativity (Shem the penman=artist). The Shadow is the concept from which many alter-ego stories are drawn. Twins are often used to symbolise alter-ego relationships. To fall upon an over-used phrase: two sides of the same coin... or the other side of a “reversibles jackets” (p183).
Therefore, could this caustic view of Shem, actually be that of his twin / other half of the whole, Shaun?
“Lefty takes the cherubcake while Rights cloves his hoof.” (p175)
This phrase paints a picture of angel and devil, lightness and darkness and gives them clearly defined identifies of left and right (right brain=creativity).
The “takes the cake” phrase also has the jealous tone of one brother who is cast in the shadow of another. (Shem’s view of Shaun / Shaun’s interpreted view of Shem’s view of Shaun?)
Whilst on the subject of devil imagery. There are many ‘fallen from grace’ references:
“...but for the light phantastic of his gnose’s glow as it slid lucifericiously within an inch of its page” (p182) [image here of light, spectral, fantastic spirituality falling into darkness]
“fallen lucifers” (p183)
Bottom line at this point in time.... I am keen to read more about Shaun in order to explore this.
Quick aside to refer to a... quick aside. How utterly bizarre (no small claim, for a book this bizarre!) is page 181? There we are reading about poor, smelly, low, greedy, fish-eating, juice-drinking Shem and then all of a sudden....:
“[Jymes wishes to hear from wearers of abandoned female costumes, gratefully received.... etc etc”
Jymes? James? James Joyce? This is complete break away from the narrative to insert what reads like an entry in the Wanted Pages of a newspaper. Even with Finnegans Wake’s myriad idiosyncrasies, this really took me by surprise.
Favourite word “slangwhangers” (p174)
Page count - I’m confused again. I officially CANNOT COUNT!! I’m somewhere around you guys, finishing each day on the bottom of pages ending in 2 or 7. That’s wrong is it? I’ve read an extra page this morning to catch up to Rider and Tyson. I never thought that during the process of reading such a notoriously difficult work of literature I would spend so much time fretting over being able to count to five!!
OK... enjoy today's pages to those of you in later time zones.... and enjoy tomorrow's pages today for those of you ahead in time zones.
Jenna :)
EDIT: JUST THOUGHT! Shaun is the Irish name for John. Sheamus (Shem) is the Irish name for James. There is a similar 'aside' note on p172 to that on p181, this time in the name of John. Scrap my comment above!
Literary Disco
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Some other things i noticed:
Biblical reference: "For in those deyes his Deyus shall ask of Allprohome and call to himm: Allprohome!"
Constantinople: "Comestowntonobble" I actually found this quite hilarious.
Sounded nice on the tongue: "the fields of heat and yields of wheat"
Can you not give me *something something* eyeballs?: "kunt ye neat gift mey toe bout a peer saft eyballds!" This is an example of something i imagined must be Dutch somehow, although "Saft" is German for "juice".
The "sic... sicker" bit here actually made me laugh out loud, literally: "sigarius (sic!) vindicat urbes terrorum (sicker!)"