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The Forsyte Saga
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The Forsyte Saga - A Man of Property - Part II
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My apologies. Chapter One of Book Two is where we find out the details of Soames's courtship (from his perspective). I guess I had read ahead without realizing. I like the first chapter because of the things mentioned above. I got a sense that Galsworthy had set the table in Book One, but now the courses would be served. :) The backstory on the courtship didn't entirely explain the relationship, but, at least, it gave me ideas to speculate upon.
I love the description of Soames and Bossiney haggling over the details of the house. How within the same face-to-face conversation both parties hear what they want to based on their perspective. And, how crazy it makes them that the other doesn't understand/appreciate in spite if their efforts to communicate.
But... The... Last... Scene... Oh, the intrigue!!
Chapter Two: June's TreatThe dinner scene almost did me in!
All the casual observance (The fish was brought. The fish was taken away.) and all the unspoken undercurrent!!!!
It is interesting that there is still some strange mystery about Irene and her agreeing to marry Somames. I wonder if we will learn more of the details and perhaps Irene's own reasoning later. It is clear she never wanted to marry him, as had already been mentioned was pressured into it by her stepmother. But I wonder what the final thing was which pushed her over the edge into agreeing?
It almost seems as if something happened, maybe some possible scandal that Irene needed to cover up or escape from as neither Irene nor her stepmother would give Soamas the reasons for why she finally said yes, after clearly being so dissatisfied with the connection from the start.
I really enjoyed the dinner party scene.
"The prospect was remar--- Zzzzzzz. Swithin cracked me up!! :DBut the "out of body" scene was unusual. A device to describe what is actually going on between the lovers, without the other characters knowing yet. And without giving Irene an internal life yet. (If she ever gets one). But... I didn't like it. It didn't seem to match the style of the story up til now.
I don't like Bossinney very much after he was so rude to James. So far he's handsome, talented, passionate... But I want to smack him. I expected to feel more sympathy for him.
Renee wrote: ""The prospect was remar--- Zzzzzzz. Swithin cracked me up!! :DBut the "out of body" scene was unusual. A device to describe what is actually going on between the lovers, without the other charact..."
Yes I found the out of body scene to be quite odd as well and it did feel rather out of place. It was an interesting device to sort of spy upon the characters, but I did not altogether understand the purpose of playing Swithin there, without him really being there.
I cannot quite figure out why Bossinney is with June. I wonder if he did care about June before his meeting, and thus becoming infatuated with Irene, or if being with June is just a way to bring him into contact with Irene.
Silver wrote: "...I wonder if he did care about June before his meeting, and thus becoming infatuated with Irene, or if being with June is just a way to bring him into contact with Irene...."Interesting thoughts about how Galsworthy selected and set up his characters! Very possible.
Personally, my reaction was that Bosinney was the kind of figure that could attract the rather independent-minded June. She pretty much must have known that she had the wealth behind her to be fairly independent. Bosinney, on the other hand, needed a patron to underwrite him, much as his personality probably would have rebelled against that need. So, in a sense, he got into an emotional and financial situation somewhat a male parallel to Irene. Then Irene came along. (Now the story reminded me of Frank Lloyd Wright [1867-1959, Taliesin fire in 1914] and his Muses.)
Renee wrote: ""I don't like Bossinney very much after he was so rude to James. So far he's handsome, talented, passionate... But I want to smack him. I expected to feel more sympathy for him. .."I just finished the chapter in which Bosinney and James have their encounter at the house, and I have to say personally I did not feel as if Bosinney was especially rude. I could not help but feel James was the one being somewhat rude. I did not feel that it really was his place to grill Bosinney about the details of the cost. To me that should be between Bosinney and Soames to figure out.
Bosinney does present some problems for me in figuring out what to make of him. I disprove of his behavior in regards to June and Irene, but I am sure he knows that the Forsyte look down upon him so I cannot entirely fault him for being a bit mocking.
There are aspects of Bosinney that I can relate to, and maybe because Bosinney and Irene are both outsiders in a way it has helped draw them together.
Lily wrote: (Now the story reminded me of Frank Lloyd Wright [1867-1959, Taliesin fire in 1914] and his Muses.)
Bosinney does remind me a bit of Frank Lloyd Wright, particularly after the discussion of the tree and James saying it should be removed but Bosinney wanting it to say. It brought some of Frank Lloyd Wright's more famous designs to mind.
I just read the chapter addressing Jolyon's visit to the zoo, and it did really make me think just how horrible zoos must have been at that time. Both with the lack of true understanding and awareness of the animals needs as well as without any real regulations as to how the animals should be treated and cared for. In addition the attitude people had about the animals as well, which Galsworthy does address in the chapter acknolwidning the cruelty of keeping such beasts in cages. It also made me think how parallels between the animals caged in the zoo can be drawn to the Forsyte's and the way in which they are also trapped in various different ways and they themeselves are like to caged beasts.
Also interesting in Jolyon being both unable to sympathize with the animals, and seeing them as being better off being put in cages and seeing that such was their purpose (this I think also reflects the attitude of Soames and his art and perhaps Irene, and the views of men regarding women in general as well)and Jolyln's inability to truly accept and acknowledge the truth of the situation with June and Bosinney. It hows his tendency to willing denial in order to avoiding accepting uncomfortable truths.
It also reflects the religious attitudes of the time, which were that man had 'dominion' over animals.
I thought that Galsworthy's tone was ironic when he was referring to animals being better off in cages, given that he was an animal rights campaigner. This in itself must have been very unusual at that time.
Kim wrote: "I thought that Galsworthy's tone was ironic when he was referring to animals being better off in cages, given that he was an animal rights campaigner..."Kim -- thx for this insight on Galsworthy. I rather guessed that from the tone of his writing, but hadn't taken the time to check.
Kim wrote: "I thought that Galsworthy's tone was ironic when he was referring to animals being better off in cages, given that he was an animal rights campaigner. This in itself must have been very unusual at ..."I think he was being ironic both about the animals and about Old Jolyon because Jolyon fails to see how he himself and his family are in many ways just like the animals.
The dinner party indicated many unspoken currents. I found it interesting that Irene spoke and Bosinney spoke. June seemed irritated. Soames didn't seem to fully comprehend it.Note on Irene and Soames marriage. My own thoughts are that she married him because she felt unwanted by her aunt and wanted a good marriage. More a marriage of convenience rather than love was the bargain she made with herself in marrying him. Soames is cold - Irene is warm. Clearly, they are at opposite ends of a pole and have very little common ground.
Linda wrote: "Soames is cold - Irene is warm. ..."I understand that appellation, but am not certain it is entirely fair or accurate. My own sense is that Soames has a warmth Irene might have drawn out of him IF he had been appealing to her. But she didn't know how to enjoy (or at least just didn't enjoy) the things he did and even resented, rightfully so, many of his initiatives, from art to house building.
I think there is a problem with a lot of miscommunication and misunderstanding between Soames and Irene, and they do not in fact now how to relate to each other. While it is true that Irene never really wanted to marry Irene and in this way she does keep Soamas shut out and deny him the intimacy he wants, at the same time I think we see the way in which Soames also acts in a way which keeps Irene at a distance. Perhaps Irene might have learned to have more contentment in the marriage if Soames was more attentive in a way that Irene could understand.
I thought it was an interesting scene during Roger's dance. We have Soamas who is there, aloof not wanting to participate in the event, and his own views that a husband should not dance with his own wife, which forces Irene into the company of others if she wants to have a good time.
I think with the Fosyte we see a lot of the way in which they are tapped within their archaic views while the world is changing around them, and that may be another thing which draws Irene and Bosinney to each other. They are both of a younger, newer generation. While Soamas is trapped within the past with ideals which are becoming irrelevant.
I read somewhere that the Bosinney/Irene relationship is based on Galsworthy's own long-term affair with (and eventual marriage to) his cousin's wife. However, to me, the character who seems closest to Galsworthy's mouthpiece is Young Jolyon. He's a Forsyte, so he understands them, yet he's removed enough to have formed an insightful perspective. He warned Bosinney that not everyone should act as he has done. As others have commented, Young Jolyon also seems to share Galsworthy's attitude towards animal rights. When Bosinney snubbed June in the street, I audibly gasped. Always the sign of a good book when I get so caught up in the story and characters.
Soames and Irene do seem to deliberately keep each other at a distance. Soames doesn't want Irene to have any involvement in the plans for the house; he doesn't even want her to know he is planning to build a house in the country. I think Irene would have liked to be asked for her ideas. But Soames treats her like he treats his paintings. He may admire them himself once in a while, but otherwise they are shut away all the time.
Mod
I am also struck by how the Forsytes always retreat to discussing money when they don't know what to say. For example when James goes down to see the finished house he is clearly impressed by how wonderful it is, and yet what he says is "You've been spending money pretty freely down here." which clearly upsets Bosinney (as it would anyone who had designed, built and decorated a grand home). I am not sure if Galsworthy is being completely disdainful of the emphasis on money and property and acquisition of this new middle class, or if in fact he is applauding and admiring their ability to transcend their appointed station and climb upwards in social position through hard work and canny business skills. Was Galsworthy himself middle class or Aristocracy?
Frances wrote: "I am not sure if Galsworthy is being completely disdainful of the emphasis on money and property and acquisition of this new middle class, or if in fact he is applauding and admiring their ability to transcend their appointed station and climb upwards in social position through hard work and canny business skills..."It feels to me as if Galsworthy is being scornful, or at the very least critical about this strong emphasis on the acquisition of property. When Young Jolyon attempts to have his conversation with Bosinney about what his intentions are, he reflects upon the fact that everything boils down to property and men having property and it seems quite an ironical monologue in which it seems indicate that women are included in this idea of property. When reflecting upon Irene's and Soames marriage and other such marriages he states that people claim that the important thing is not to offend the sacredness of the convent of marriage, but what it really is about is man and his property.
It also makes me think back to the scene at the zoo, and Soamas with his art locked away it is this whole idea about man becoming trapped in his own scene and need for ownership. Man becomes so caught up in his need to possess, to own, that it ultimately ends up building this cage around himself and building these unhappy marriages that were made for the sake of the property and the wealth, and in which the women herself becomes just another acquisition.
Young Jolyon and Bosinney are the free ones because of their lack of any real property.
Silver wrote: "Young Jolyon and Bosinney are the free ones because of their lack of any real property. ..."Well, that always raises the question of what does "freedom" look like.
From the introduction to the Oxford edition: "...The power of beauty is reinforced throughout the saga by numerous allusions to paintings, sculptures, operas, and piano music, which represent cumulatively the subversive, anti-materialistic, liberating force of the imagination. However, like E.M. Forster in Howard's End, Galsworthy confronts the paradox that the creation and enjoyment of art depend upon wealth and patronage. In this respect young Jolyon, who is part-Forsyte and part-artist, seems to speak for Galsworthy in his conversation with Bosinney in their club when, acknowledging the emotional, intellectual, and spiritual impoverishment of the Forsytes as slaves of property, he continues with muted irony:
"'They are...half England, and the better half, too, the safe half, the three per cent half, the half that counts. It's their wealth and security that makes everything possible; makes your art possible, makes literature,science, even religion, possible. Without Forsytes, who believe in none of these things, but turn them all to use, where should we be? My dear sir, the Forsytes are the middlemen, the commercials, the pillars of society, the cornerstones of convention; everything that is admirable!'"
Galsworthy, John (2012-05-17). The Forsyte Saga - Complete. (Kindle Locations 2803-2807). Kindle Edition.
In contrast and in support of your comments, Silver, I quote from Joseph Campbell's Thou Art That, which I finished this morning, so the words are fresh in memory: "The very first question the Devil put to Christ was, 'Why don't you turn those stones into bread?' Christ replies that man lives not by bread alone....He rejects the economic theory of the spiritual life, thereby refuting Bernard Shaw's notion that one must be economically well-off before one can practice spiritual exercises." p88.
I'm not sure what part of the following is in Part II and what in Part III, so I'm going to hide it, rather than delete it, since it was already written when I went back to try to check (w/o exact success): (view spoiler)
I've suspended reading for awhile because I'm ahead of our schedule -- in the interlude between books for 7/18. Part of me wanted to just keep on reading -- I hope not to lose too much of a sense who the various characters are and their relationships.
Does anyone know about divorce during this time period? I understand it would be scandalous, but were women allowed to start a divorce proceeding, or just men? I'm curious as to what Irene thinks will happen once she locks Soames out. Is she pressing him to start a divorce? Does she plan on living there but continuing to have an affair? Since she is Soames' "property" is it illegal for her to leave?
From the time the Matrimonial Causes Act was passed in 1857 both men and women could sue for divorce. Before then, a divorce required an act of parliament. Under the Matrimonial Causes Act, adultery was the only ground for divorce but men and women were treated differently. A man could sue for divorce merely on the basis of adultery, but a woman would have to prove adultery plus cruelty, desertion, bigamy, incest or "unnatural vice" (sodomy, bestiality or rape of another woman).It wouldn't be illegal for Irene to leave the marriage and after 1880 a woman could keep all property that she acquired before or during marriage, which made it more feasible for a woman to leave a marriage. (Although it would be difficult for Irene, given that she has no money).
Kai wrote: "Does anyone know about divorce during this time period? I understand it would be scandalous, but were women allowed to start a divorce proceeding, or just men? I'm curious as to what Irene thinks..."In a conversation with Soames she said to him that he had originally told that if the marriage was not a success he would let her go. But he is now unwilling to follow through with that promises and refuses to acknowledge the problems within their marriage, and puts it off on her just not behaving as a proper wife.
He also does point out that if she were to leave she would have no where to go because she has nothing.
To get out of a marriage it was easier to use adultery as a reason because it was easier to prove than cruelty and the other reasons would attract scandal. If they had no 'pre-nup' written agreement about Soames letting her go, that reason would not stand up in court. Irene could have been deliberately choosing adultery to get out of her marriage. Until quite recently a husband had a right to insist upon his 'conjugal rights' and, to quote Wiki: 'In 1707, English Lord Chief Justice John Holt described the act of a man having sexual relations with another man's wife as "the highest invasion of property". For this reason, in many cultures there was a conflation between the crimes of rape and adultery, since both were seen and understood as a violation of the rights of the husband. Rape as a crime was constructed as a property crime against a father or husband not as a crime against the woman's right to self-determination.'
Re: Soames telling Irene she has nowhere to go and has nothing will not keep her nor will it make her love him. It was his words that helped erect a "cage" - almost, like she was a beautiful bird he wanted to love and tame. Beautiful women who are unhappy and in society most often found themselves "rescued" by another man or the best outcome, finding themselves a "true love".
Linda wrote: "Beautiful women who are unhappy and in society most often found themselves "rescued" by another man or the best outcome, finding themselves a "true love". ..."A fascinating sentence, Linda. Not certain I am comfortable with either "Beautiful women" or "best outcome." Somehow, "real life" seems more complicated to me than that, but of course, beauty can be many things, as can "best." I also find myself thinking of Henry James's challenging The Portrait of a Lady where he ostensibly gives his protagonist the freedom to choose and I have never been convinced of the "why" or "best" of her choice.
PART II
CHAPTER I—PROGRESS OF THE HOUSE
CHAPTER II—JUNE'S TREAT
CHAPTER III—DRIVE WITH SWITHIN
CHAPTER IV—JAMES GOES TO SEE FOR HIMSELF
CHAPTER V—SOAMES AND BOSINNEY CORRESPOND
CHAPTER VI—OLD JOLYON AT THE ZOO
CHAPTER VII—AFTERNOON AT TIMOTHY'S
CHAPTER VIII—DANCE AT ROGER'S
CHAPTER IX—EVENING AT RICHMOND
CHAPTER X—DIAGNOSIS OF A FORSYTE
CHAPTER XI—BOSINNEY ON PAROLE
CHAPTER XII—JUNE PAYS SOME CALLS
CHAPTER XIII—PERFECTION OF THE HOUSE
CHAPTER XIV—SOAMES SITS ON THE STAIRS