Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Ovid - Metamorphoses
>
Metamorphoses Book 1
date
newest »
newest »
Lily wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Other civilizations had myths which were much more benign. Why did the Greco-Romans develop this way? ..."Which ones were you thinking of, Eman? Certainly not Norse!"
No. I was thinking more specifically of Australian Aborigine mythology, and much of the Native American mythology. And what little I know of Han Chinese mythology is also much less violent than Greco-Roman mythology, with people being cut up, cooked, and fed to others, multiple rape myths, a god being chained to a mountain with his innards pecked out by eagles, and other quite violent ways of representing the world. Not that I don't enjoy reading and talking about these myths, because I do. But I also recognize their inherent violence, which reflects I think the nature of a culture of necessarily small city-states which were a result of the mountainous and island geography of Greece, where you couldn't have the large easily governed societies you could have in areas like Mesopotamia and Egypt, where travel was much easier and a ruler could exert control over large areas much more easily.
Everyman wrote: "...I was thinking more specifically of Australian Aborigine mythology, and much of the Native American mythology. And what little I know of Han Chinese mythology is also much less violent than Greco-Roman mythology..."Thx, Eman. I know virtually nothing about Han Chinese mythology, just fragments of the other two you name, but enough about Native American to relate to what you say.
I downloaded Hesoid last night and was cursorily comparing him with Ovid. Too lightly to be conclusive, but I didn't find one of the things I thought Hamilton mentioned. Oh, on rechecking, I find the comic poet Aristophanes (~400BC) is to whom she attributes that Love sprang forth from night, preceding humankind. (p.61, Mythology, Mentor, 1964) A pretty idea?
Hamilton also wrote:"The poet Hesiod, the first Greek who tried to explain how things began, wrote,
'Earth, the beautiful, rose up,
Broad-bosomed, she that is the steadfast base
Of all things. And fair Earth first bore
The starry heaven, equal to herself,
To cover her on all sides and to be
A home forever for the blessed gods.'
"In all this thought about the past no distinction had as yet been made between places and persons. Earth was the solid ground, yet vaguely a personality, too. Heaven was the blue vault on high, but it acted in some ways as a human being would. To the people who told these stories all the universe was alive with the same kind of life they knew in themselves...." Ibid., p64.
Alternatively, metaphor came early to human speech?
Hesiod: "Greek oral poet generally thought by scholars to have been active between 750 and 650 BC." Wiki.
Lily wrote: "...Daphne called out to her father for help, apparently before Apollo had a chance to ravish her, .."Don't mean to sound too macabre, but that may be the ancient equivalent of assisted suicide. One is to preserve virginity, the other dignity, at the cost of life.
and that trees and other living things were apparently once assumed to have human-like souls,
Of all the things that have souls (dwelling) in them, the trees seem to be the least alive, belonging neither to the world of the living nor to the world the dead. I think Ovid may have adopted the Aristotelian view that desire and movement (after the object of desire) are the characteristics of soul. Daphne could no longer pursue the things that she loved, i.e., hunting, but instead was entombed in a tree.
Patrice wrote: "...Wanting no part of any man, she travelled....."
Isn't it ironic that Daphne. who wanted "no part of any man", became the laurel wreath that is worn by Apollo and men competing in the Pythian games?
The laurel signifies victory, but whose victory?
The Daphne and Apollo story is so wonderfully layered. It does have a sense of being trapped by one's own choices (e.g., Daphne). There is the side that Apollo fell into trouble because he insulted another, i.e., Cupid. Then, we add to it seemingly some level of fatherly love (Peneus -- or sense of honor or pride or thwarted will) and of passionate love (Apollo) denied.Although being turned into a tree certainly could seem "suicide" or death to our 21st century sensibilities, I hesitate to give it that connotation at the time of the creation of this ancient tale. In fact, even I sometimes look at a tree and envy it its projected life span and all it shall "see" -- of course, only certain types of trees.
Yet, one of the mysteries is just how lost in the mists of time are the origins of this particular tale. Hamilton wrote in 1942, "Ovid alone tells this story." Although I am willing to presume that Ovid had his sources, perhaps now lost, in a brief search I have not found scholarly speculations on them. (The wording in Wiki rather begs the question and suggests once again the caution with which that source -- and all others -- need to be approached.)
But the myth is so rich and so current on exploring the presumptions of "possessing" another without mutual consent. In terms of shape shifting, it is somewhat the obverse/complement of Pygmalion. What a gift to us in sculpture alone that this story inspired Bernini.
(See msg 42 for a link to a video on Bernini's sculpture.)
Patrice wrote: "The trouble with rifling through a million books at once is that I can't find what I want in one I had thought that Ovid was the one to write about Daphne, but somewhere I was surprised to find a Greek myth about the same thing, names different, same story..."Patrice -- I know the feeling, and hope you find it. My curiosity has been provoked on this one. I have long loved the myth, but never stopped to probe it closely.
Lily wrote: "In fact, even I sometimes look at a tree and envy it its projected life span and all it shall "see" -- of course, only certain types of trees. "Well, the laurel is an evergreen, and it is associated with chastity and eternal life. The Greek word for laurel is "daphne," though I don't know which came first -- the word, or the myth. Robert Graves suggests an alternate version of the myth whereby Daphne is rescued not by Peneus, but by Mother Earth, who spirits her away to Crete, where she becomes known as Pasiphae. (Patrice might be able to tell us more about Pasiphae and the Minotaur. It's interesting how these myths interrelate and evolve.) Mother Earth leaves a laurel tree in Daphne's place, from which Apollo makes a wreath to console himself.
Patrice wrote: "I was just going to sleep when it dawned on me that being turned into a tree is not quite "victory". It almost feels like a cynical joke."Your comment reminds me a little of the enigmatic pronouncements of the Delphic Oracle (who was dedicated to Apollo and supposedly held or chewed on laurel leaves while she was receiving her prophecies.) Like the prophecy given to Croesus, who wanted to attack the Persians -- the prophecy was "you will destroy a great nation." Well, he did. His own.
Lily wrote @116: "We had basically these myths in Book I ... Is there a unifying theme? If there is, I haven't identified it."I think we can divide the stories in Book 1 into three distinct groups. First the creation of the Cosmos (1), recounted with a certain philosophical distance. Ovid refers to an unnamed God, clearly quite different from the merry Olympians we'll encounter in the rest of the book. Ovid seems to have an almost deist point of view here. Lucretius has been mentioned earlier as a possible source of inspiration.
Next we have some 'big history': the origin of man, the historical epochs and the great flood (2-7). Funky stuff for mythologists who love to delve into the Roman collective subconscious. The theme must be degeneration. The Olympians act as avengers, but it is doubtful whether even the great flood has been effective in stopping the corruption.
Finally (8-12) we reach the stories of Apollo & Daphne, Jupiter & Io, Pan & Syrinx. Virgins chased by the gods are meta-morphed into lower life-forms for protection. I saw the theme described as 'divine comedy'*. We are made aware of the limitations on what the Olympians can be or do.
Attempted rape as comedy, it may take some effort of the mind today, but somehow Ovid succeeds to come into his own as a story teller in this third part of Book 1.
* http://larryavisbrown.homestead.com/f...
Ted wrote @75: "I hope to analyze Ovid's creation myth and compare it to the quoted part of Lucretius, which is from book V of his epic poem. But it will take me awhile ..."I was also led from Ovid to Lucretius and started reading On the Nature of Things last week. So I'm curious what you will come up with. I find it fascinating, but difficult (I am now waiting for a recent translation, hoping that will make the going a bit easier).
For now it seems that too much is made of the ostensible similarities between modern physics and Lucretius' views. It is rather the Epicureans uncompromising materialism and (rather theoretical) empiricism that is so interesting. Just as, by the way, Lucretius' almost Catholic view on carnal love - which was certainly not shared by Ovid.
What they do share is their lack of enthusiasm for the Olympian gods. Ovid's use of a Demiurg as the creator of the Cosmos shows however that he was less radical than the Epicureans.
Nemo wrote @103: "Lycaon took a positivistic approach to religion, and demanded evidence/signs from the god, not unlike the people of Israel in the OT, or the NT, "If He is God, let Him save Himself"...."Which would seem a quite reasonable point of view. However, the Lycaon story seems to deal more with the practice of human sacrifice (possibly accompanied by ritual cannibalism). That puts Zeus' anger in a somewhat different light.
Wendel wrote: "I was also led from Ovid to Lucretius and started reading On the Nature of Things last week. So I'm curious what you will come up with. I find it fascinating, but difficult..."There is an audiobook of "On the Nature of Things" at Audible.com that I found quite accessible and a pleasure to "read". But I don't recall which translation it is.
Wendel wrote: "the Lycaon story seems to deal more with the practice of human sacrifice (possibly accompanied by ritual cannibalism). That puts Zeus' anger in a somewhat different light. ..."Viewed from the perspective of Metamorphoses, animal sacrifice is no different from human sacrifice, and cannibalism carnivorism. The animal being sacrificed/eaten might be a morphed human being. (Ovid makes this argument in Book XV)
According to Herodotus, there are ancient cultures where people eat the flesh of their deceased elders. In a way, it is no different from the practice of "organ donation" today. Both are metamorphoses or "recycling", if you will, which also happens on a much larger scale: The body of the deceased fertilize the ground from which we receive our food. The only difference between that type of eating and cannibalism is the turnaround time.
Classics and the Western Canon
Books mentioned in this topic
Mythology (other topics)The Skriker (other topics)
The Swerve: How the World Became Modern (other topics)
A Handbook of Greek Mythology, Including its Extension to Rome (other topics)
Mythology (other topics)
Actually, more than that, aspects of nature were considered to be minor gods. Recall for example in the Iliad where the river god Xanthos rises up in anger at being choked.