Am I the only one thinks Bella is a strong character??

[Elias]

Bella shoved women's rights back 150 years. Katniss moved them back to the present.

[[deleted user]]

I actually think Bella is a strong character. She is HUMAN and every human has flaws no matter what. She can be selfish at times but really, all she does is out of love and her passion. She really is selfless because of that.
Examples:

1). She risks her own life against a vampire, single-handed I might add, to save her mom. She literally would have rather died than have someone she love die.

2). New Moon. Jane was torturing Edward and Bella couldn't take it anymore so she agreed to be turned into a vampire so she would not risk the Cullen's.

3). She would rather DIE than be the cause of her own baby, Renesmee's, death. She would have done anything, anything for Renesmee. She drank blood for her. She let the baby break her bones and suck her life out to get the nutrition to live. She made Edward bite her stomach out to get Nessie out before the baby suffocated to death. There really is NOTHING she would not have done to save Nessie. I love that about her.

I could make several more reasons if I had to. She seriously is one of the bravest and most courageous characters I know. I look up to her for that. For the people who look at Bella as "weak" and "whiny", Stephanie Meyer made her as human as possible. You can't possibly think that a normal human being is not at least a little like Bella at times. She does have her good and she also has her bad. But I look up to her good and I try to ignore her flaws, as a fellow human being.

[Clarissa]

anyone would save another person's life because they love them but she still tried to kill herself. so much for emotionally strong :(

[Jordan]

Clarissa wrote: "anyone would save another person's life because they love them but she still tried to kill herself. so much for emotionally strong :("

She didn't try to kill herself. She says that. She wants to see him, and she knew it was dangerous, but she did it for a rush. (I assume we are talking about the cliff jumping?) Why is it implied that she tried to kill herself and the other boys weren't? She was recreationally jumping, not attempting suicide.

[Jessica]

Jordan wrote: "Clarissa wrote: "anyone would save another person's life because they love them but she still tried to kill herself. so much for emotionally strong :("

She didn't try to kill herself. She says tha..."

Oh my God, we've been over this. This is a horse that was killed, then beaten in death then it rotted and is now a skeleton and you're still trying to beat that poor dead horse. It was explained in this thread why it's looked upon as her trying to kill herself because she purposely put herself in harms way, and why it's different for the La Push boys. It was a super intense debate, you were here for it I believe. It was too intense of a debate to rehash it or compress it.

[Jessica]

Jordan wrote: "Clarissa wrote: "anyone would save another person's life because they love them but she still tried to kill herself. so much for emotionally strong :("

She didn't try to kill herself. She says tha..."

I referred you to the wrong thread (it's not in this one). It's in this one https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/... .

I'm going to give you the gist of it. Only that and nothing more. I'm not going to talk about it again, it's not going to be reopened for another debate, because I already had this discussion and don't feel like opening it again. Besides, what has been said on it is all that could be said. (You were apart of it, how has it slipped your mind?)

Basically what it boils down to is that Bella and the La Push boys did it for different reasons, which is why people saw it as her trying to kill herself. The La Push boys are shape shifters, for one. They're tougher, can heal faster, and can take more damage than a human. They also never cliff dived while depressed and doing it not for a recreational purpose, but to put themselves purposely in danger just to hear a voice in their head. On top of that, they are professionals in cliff diving. They've been doing it far longer than Bella and were more skilled. They've done it multiple times, Bella only did it once and that was when she jumped in New Moon. She knew the dangers, knew she could die, but jumped anyway.

This is a big glaring difference on why one group was doing it for recreation and the other was doing it to harm themselves.

[J.]

At first, Bella was not strong. She was written to not be strong. She was written to be a depressed and beat down character.

She came from a broken home. Her mom chose to go on the road instead of raise her, so she shipped Bella back to her dad. A dad Bella barely knew.

Bella had to relocate from sunny Arizona to one of the most sunless and depressing places in the US. She had to face a new school, which is always hard.

If you went through all that, then you would understand why she is not strong. Many people can relate to how Bella feels.

I think a lot of people would have considered suicide in that situation. Add to the fact that she wanted to hear Edward's voice again, and I can forgive her for putting herself in danger, for jumping off the cliff. It was arguably a suicide move. Perhaps she expected she would hear Edward one more time and die. Or perhaps she expected to survive. I think she was divided and part of her thought she would live and part of her didn't care if she lived or died.

I don't see Bella as a weak female character who needs to be saved by a man, as many suggest. I get that point of view. It is quite valid way to analyze her character that way. And from certain points of view, it holds some truth.

However, I choose to see it differently. I see Bella as a dangerously depressed character who Stephenie Meyer uses to show that love and friendship can help lift a person from the depths of depression to happiness. The love was with Edward and the friendship was with Alice. Both Edward and Alice helped in saving Bella.

Stephenie shows all young women that no matter how bad life is or how depressed they get, there is hope for happiness. And that, in my opinion, is worthy of applause. This hope for happiness is felt by the readers, which is probably a big part of why the book is so popular.

Even with the help of love and friendship, rising out of depression is hard and takes strength. So in the end, yes, Bella becomes strong.

J. Abram Barneck
Fire Light

[Jessica]

J. wrote: "She came from a broken home. Her mom chose to go on the road instead of raise her, so she shipped Bella back to her dad. A dad Bella barely knew."

You put such a more melodramatic spin on it than was actually there. Renee didn't send Bella to her father, she in fact was practically begging her to stay. And she knew her father very well. She's been spending her summers with him. And just because the parents are divorced doesn't mean that the home is broken. Family units work better apart than together.

"Bella had to relocate from sunny Arizona to one of the most sunless and depressing places in the US. She had to face a new school, which is always hard."

Forks isn't depressing. I assume you've never lived there, but that's kind of insulting to say it's depressing. Bella wasn't well received in Arizona anyhow, she was a wallflower in Arizona whereas in Forks she bloomed because she immediately had friends, boys crushing and fighting over her, and was well received by all. So it wasn't hard to transition from Arizona to Forks. Bella found it easy. Fast friends and easy grades.

"I think a lot of people would have considered suicide in that situation."

If you consider suicide after willingly moving yourself from one parent to another and a boyfriend broke up with you then you need help because you have problems that stem from issues other than a broken heart.

"It was arguably a suicide move. Perhaps she expected she would hear Edward one more time and die. Or perhaps she expected to survive. "

Bella knew that she wouldn't make it if she jumped. She surely should've expected that she would've drowned because it was dangerous, she could've hit her head on a jagged rock, and if not for Jacob then her dumb self for sure would've died.

[Heidi]

Jesse wrote: ""It was arguably a suicide move. Perhaps she expected she would hear Edward one more time and die. Or perhaps she expected to survive. "

Bella knew that she wouldn't make it if she jumped. She surely should've expected that she would've drowned because it was dangerous, she could've hit her head on a jagged rock, and if not for Jacob then her dumb self for sure would've died.
"
I agree with everything you replied in except this. We know her inner most thoughts. Where did it say that she knew she wouldn't make it? She knew it was dangerous. That I agree with. But I think she had a junkie mentality when it came to seeing and hearing Edward. And by that I mean, she wanted to get her fix - and wasn't thinking of consequences. Just because someone is a junkie doesn't make them suicidal, it just makes them an addict.

[Jessica]

Heidi wrote: "I agree with everything you replied in except this. We know her inner most thoughts. Where did it say that she knew she wouldn't make it? She knew it was dangerous. That I agree with. But I think she had a junkie mentality when it came to seeing and hearing Edward. And by that I mean, she wanted to get her fix - and wasn't thinking of consequences. Just because someone is a junkie doesn't make them suicidal, it just makes them an addict. "

Bella knew she wouldn't make it when the undercurrent caught her and she couldn't swim out of it. She stated how happy she was that it was almost over. It being several things. Her pain, misery, her struggle, sadness, life. And she was happy. All because she was finally seeing and hearing Edward. And a bit earlier she was taunting the illusion with how human she was. She said "You wanted me to be human. Well, watch me. -But you won't stay with me any other way." As if to say, "Look, I'm human, I can die and you're not here to stop it because you chose not to be."

So she knew she possibly couldn't make it, it just didn't hit till she hit the water and the undercurrent caught her.

[Heidi]

Jesse wrote: "Bella knew she wouldn't make it when the undercurrent caught her and she couldn't swim out of it. She stated how happy she was that it was almost over. It being several things. Her pain, misery, her struggle, sadness, life. And she was happy. All because she was finally seeing and hearing Edward. And a bit earlier she was taunting the illusion with how human she was. She said "You wanted me to be human. Well, watch me. -But you won't stay with me any other way." As if to say, "Look, I'm human, I can die and you're not here to stop it because you chose not to be."

So she knew she possibly couldn't make it, it just didn't hit till she hit the water and the undercurrent caught her. "

And people who jump from planes also know that there is a possibility of dying. They don't know though until they take the jump and their chute doesn't deploy - (or it deploys incorrectly). My point is, does that also make people who parachute suicidal? People who do it a lot are known as adrenaline junkies. Just like Bella had become an adrenaline junkie that made her hallucinations. I believe, that in order to be suicidal you have to think "I want to die". She was accepting of the predicament that she was going to die after she was in the situation.

You said "She said "You wanted me to be human. Well, watch me. -But you won't stay with me any other way."

I think if it was applied that she was in a junkie mentality that wanted to see Edward - It would mean "as if to say" - Look, I' human because your stupid arse didn't turn me. And if this is the only way I can see you, I will continue to do stupid arse things.

[Jessica]

Heidi wrote: "And people who jump from planes also know that there is a possibility of dying. They don't know though until they take the jump and their chute doesn't deploy - (or it deploys incorrectly). My point is, does that also make people who parachute suicidal? People who do it a lot are known as adrenaline junkies. Just like Bella had become an adrenaline junkie that made her hallucinations. I believe, that in order to be suicidal you have to think "I want to die". She was accepting of the predicament that she was going to die after she was in the situation. "

You keep listing recreational things that adrenaline junkies do and it sucks because I then have to keep repeating that Bella isn't an adrenaline junkie. She's not doing dangerous things purposely because she wants to feel the adrenaline rush, she's doing them so she can see and hear Edward because she cracked when he left her. She does dangerous things purposely without any proper training (or in case of the shady guys, did it because she knew that danger would bring Edward up). Adrenaline junkies know what they're doing and Bella did not. She just did it to see Edward, not get an adrenaline rush. Adrenaline rushes and hallucinations are not the same thing.

"I think if it was applied that she was in a junkie mentality that wanted to see Edward - It would mean "as if to say" - Look, I' human because your stupid arse didn't turn me. And if this is the only way I can see you, I will continue to do stupid arse things. "

He's not stupid for not wanting to turn her. He's selfish, but he had actual logical reasons for not turning her right then and there at the end of Twilight. So how can it be seen as her saying that she should've been turned sooner and not taunting the hallucination because the actual Edward wasn't there to keep her from putting herself in danger as she was currently doing at the time?

You say she was in a junkie mentality, and I say that she was depressed and had suicidal tendencies, that she toed the line of danger so much because she was depressed over Edward and if danger gave him to her, then danger is what she'd seek out. Junkies (addicts) don't do things that purposely put their life in harms way to get their fix and adrenaline junkies don't do it without having proper training, experience, or a butt load of people/first aid/ safety devices around when things go pear shaped.

[[deleted user]]

I loved Bella.

[Lynne]

All that Bella knew about that cliff was that other kids dived off it all the time. It says in the book that Jake was planning to take her that day anyway. He got angry with her for going without him and not noticing that the weather turned ugly. Really, is Bella going to notice that? Why would she? She's an inside girl. She's not going to be thinking about what the weather might be doing to the water, which is what made it dangerous, not that it was just some arbitrary cliff suitable for a convenient suicide.
If someone is serious about ending their life, they do it properly. Trying to kill yourself by jumping off a cliff that is a regular place for people to jump off for fun is not a good way to go about it. Bella knows people jump of this cliff, so she has every reason to think that she will survive the jump, just as they had. Why wouldn't she? Jake hasn't said anyone has died doing it, so she has no reason to think she will. Jake was the one who suggested they go in the first place. The only reason she's jumping is so she'll get the rush she needs to hear Edward, something she's already tried to induce regularly without anything more than a bit of an injury here and there.

[Jessica]

Lynne wrote: "Really, is Bella going to notice that? Why would she? She's an inside girl. She's also still depressed, so she's not going to be thinking about what the weather might be doing to the water, which is what made it dangerous, not that it was just some arbitrary cliff suitable for a convenient suicide.."

How could she not? She is standing at the edge of the cliff, can see the sky and how the water is not calm and doesn't look safe to dive head first into, how can you think she wouldn't notice this? Not even depression could stop someone's eyes from working, from their brain taking in a situation and how it is not the most opportune for a dive into the rocky bottom of a cliff.

"If someone is serious about ending their life, they do it properly. Trying to kill yourself by jumping off a cliff that is a regular place for people to jump off for fun is not a good way to go about it. "

It is when you don't do it properly, when you can't swim, when you just let the undercurrent sweep you away. Really, cliff diving to end your life might not be a good way to you, but it is a way.

"Bella knows people jump of this cliff, so she has every reason to think that she will survive the jump, just as they had. "

that's like saying that people who can't swim have every reason to think they won't drown because other people are swimming just fine in a pool. The BIG difference is that she picked the worse day to do it and didn't do it for a recreational purpose. she didn't do it for fun like the La Push boys. I don't know why I have to keep repeating this.

[MGaby]

I think she is a strong girl. but she is pretty single minded. she is stubborn, but in a good way. she has a big heart and would give her life for what and who she believes in and loves. but that strong love and passion sometimes makes her foolish. I like her. yes, sometimes in the book I felt like slapping her, but we are all foolish when it comes to what we are passionate about. Bella is a strong young girl who knows what she wants and will fight for it even If she messes up sometimes. Bella is selfless, brave, loving and yes, in some ways, she is strong.

[Lynne]

Jesse wrote: " when you can't swim, ..."

There's no indication anywhere in the story that Bella can't swim. Clearly she can, or Jake would never have offered to take her cliff diving in the first place. She's certainly able to swim when she and Edward go on their honeymoon in Breaking Dawn.

Certainly, Bella would have noticed that the sky was darkening, sure, but would she have thought about what it would do to the current? When I was her age, something like that would never have occurred to me. And remember Jake was going to take her that day himself, but he had to go off and hunt Victoria. Why would it occur to her that a darkening sky would make it dangerous, especially if she was so desperate to experience Edward's presence? She wasn't thinking about the water (which is pretty much exactly what she says to Alice) and what effect the storm might have on it.

The BIG difference is that she picked the worse day to do it and didn't do it for a recreational purpose.

She didn't pick the day. Jake did. He suggested it the day before. She went to La Push that day expecting to do go cliff diving with him, but he'd gone off to hunt Victoria because they'd found a fresh trail. And while her purpose may not have been recreational, there is still no clear evidence that it was suicidal. There is every reason to believe, from what is presented in the book, that she jumped, not to kill herself, but simply to get her junkie fix, as she had with other things before without huge injury occurring. She's jumping from a popular jumping spot where she has seen others jump before. She knows that the guy who she's hanging out with was planning to take her there that day. She jumps because she's too impatient to wait for him anymore, and that's the only thing that's presented in the book. Jake hasn't turned up to take her, so she decides to go by herself. There is no hint in the writing that she thinks ending it all is a great idea at that point, and since we're in Bella's point of view there should be an indication of that if that's what she's thinking. There's every reason to think she went into the jump thinking she'd survive, like everyone else had when they'd jumped.

[Jordan]

Jesse wrote: "Jordan wrote: "Clarissa wrote: "anyone would save another person's life because they love them but she still tried to kill herself. so much for emotionally strong :("

She didn't try to kill hersel..."

I'm sorry I don't like reading all of these posts because they are like English essays explaining things like this. I apologize, but what I see is not swaying. I still stand by this.

[Jordan]

Plus, she wouldn't kill herself, because even though she believes that Edward doesn't love her anymore, she knows the type of person he is, and she wouldn't want him to live with the guilt.

[Jessica]

Lynne wrote: "There's no indication anywhere in the story that Bella can't swim"

Did I say she couldn't swim? No. you missed my point.

"Why would it occur to her that a darkening sky would make it dangerous-"

It's not just the darkening of the sky. Like, oh it's getting dark the water must be dangerous. No. It began to rain, the water was harsh and beating at the side of the cliff. Any one with eyes can see that this was not the right time to cliff dive. But because it was made even more dangerous by bad weather she thought there couldn't be a more perfect time.

"Certainly, Bella would have noticed that the sky was darkening, sure, but would she have thought about what it would do to the current? "

She noticed how bad the water was. It was because the water was so raging, that there was about to be a storm that made her want to do it. It was because it looked dangerous that made her want to do it even more. She knows this, she says it, makes note of how angry the water looks and she said how jumping would make Edward's voice come to her so furious and velvety.

"She didn't pick the day. Jake did."

He did not. I have it on epub and my version has them talking of Jacob taking her cliff diving soon on page 88-89 and page 180 is where she approaches the cliff on her own to jump off it. Unless Meyer is a shitty writer that it took her 20+ pages to get to the next day, it wasn't Jacob who picked the day. He just said 'soon' picked the way he was allowing a first time jumper to dive and it wasn't from where Bella wanted to jump off.

"And while her purpose may not have been recreational, there is still no clear evidence that it was suicidal."

I never said she did it to kill herself.

"There's every reason to think she went into the jump thinking she'd survive, like everyone else had when they'd jumped. "

And the 'every reason' you keep presenting are your what ifs and hypothetical theories that you make up, not things from the book like I'm showing.

[Lynne]

Maxine wrote: "She may be strong in some minor ways but when it comes down to it she had proven she cannot survive on her own and she needs a man to help protect her. I for one am never going to allow my daughter to read this book and get any ridiculous ideas from it. "

I think it's an oversimplification to say that Bella can't survive without 'a man'. She survived nicely without one before she met Edward and was strong enough to temper her mother's eccentricities. However, once she has discovered true love (and that's what it's meant to be) with Edward, can she survive without that? No, she can't. It's good to remember that Edward couldn't survive without her, either. As Stephenie Meyer says on her website:

WHAT IF... What if true love left you? Not some ordinary high school romance, not some random jock boyfriend, not anyone at all replaceable. True love. The real deal. Your other half, your true soul's match. What happens if he leaves?

The answer is different for everyone. Juliet had her version, Marianne Dashwood had hers, Isolde and Catherine Earnshaw and Scarlett O'Hara and Anne Shirley all had their ways of coping.

I had to answer the question for Bella. What does Bella Swan do when true love leaves her? Not just true love, but Edward Cullen! None of those other heroines lost an Edward (Romeo was a hothead, Willoughby was a scoundrel, Tristan had loyalty issues, Heathcliff was pure evil, Rhett had a mean streak and cheated with hookers, and sweet Gilbert was much more of a Jacob than an Edward). So what happens when True Love in the form of Edward Cullen leaves Bella?

I let Bella answer the question for herself, writing to see what she would do. It was hard to write her pain, because I had to live it to write it, and I was often writing through my tears. At the same time, it was always interesting. Bella surprised me with her grit and dogged determination. She pushed through the agony, living for others—Charlie in this case—as has always been her style.

(Side note: there are those who think Bella is a wuss. There are those who think my stories are misogynistic—the damsel in distress must be rescued by strong hero.

To the first accusation, I can only say that we all handle grief in our own way. Bella's way is no less valid than any other to my mind. Detractors of her reaction don't always take into account that I'm talking about true love here, rather than high school infatuation.

I emphatically reject the second accusation. I am all about girl power—look at Alice and Jane if you doubt that. I am not anti-female, I am anti-human. I wrote this story from the perspective of a female human because that came most naturally, as you might imagine. But if the narrator had been a male human, it would not have changed the events. When a human being is totally surrounded by creatures with supernatural strength, speed, senses, and various other uncanny powers, he or she is not going to be able to hold his or her own. Sorry. That's just the way it is. We can't all be slayers. Bella does pretty well I think, all things considered. She saves Edward, after all. Side note/rant over. Back to the story.)

Now, I guess that you can say that she failed to deliver that in her story, but she's definitely trying to communicate more than just 'a woman who needs a man' here. This is her version of a true love story. Her style is to write things with high and heady emotion, so I don't think it's surprising that it ended up the way it did.

[Jessica]

Lynne wrote: "I think it's an oversimplification to say that Bella can't survive without 'a man'. She survived nicely without one before she met Edward and was strong enough to temper her mother's eccentricities. However, once she has discovered true love (and that's what it's meant to be) with Edward, can she survive without that? No, she can't. It's good to remember that Edward couldn't survive without her, either"

But that is unhealthy! As humans, mammals, we are not meant to be alone. But true love is not an excuse to be so unhealthily co dependent on the other to the point where they would kill themselves should the other leave them. That is a coupling bound for failure and one that should be stopped before it starts to save lives. They already proved they can't survive without one another, that's unhealthy. Love doesn't hurt you or kill you. But obsession does.

"but she's definitely trying to communicate more than just 'a woman who needs a man' here."

To say she failed to communicate it would be like saying lava is a tad hot. It would be an understatement. She didn't show Bella at all as nothing more than a damsel in distress. Sure she lived just fine without Edward, but she showed that her 'attempt' only lead her to gain a death wish all because he wasn't with her.

She wants to compare them to R&J? Then she'd be right to do so, but not in the positive way she tried to do so. It's an explosive unhealthy love that ended the lives of others because they HAD to be together for no real reason as they don't show why they love one another besides aesthetic reasons.

[Lynne]

Jesse wrote: "He did not. I have it on epub and my version has them talking of Jacob taking her cliff diving soon on page 88-89 and page 180 is where she approaches the cliff on her own to jump off it. Unless Meyer is a shitty writer that it took her 20+ pages to get to the next day, it wasn't Jacob who picked the day. He just said 'soon' picked the way he was allowing a first time jumper to dive and it wasn't from where Bella wanted to jump off. ..."

Here is a quote from pg 352 of my paperback edition:
"Didn't I promise to take you cliff diving?"
I shivered.
"Yeah, it can be pretty cold - not as cold as it is today. Can you feel the weather changing? The pressure? It will be warmer tomorrow. You up for it?"
...
"Sure, I'm up for it. Fun."
"It's a date."

In this quote he says it will be warmer 'tomorrow' and he will take her on a cliff diving date. In fact, this quote suggests that he thought the weather would be better for cliff diving the following day. Bella goes on to say on the same page that she goes to La Push the next day to cliff dive with Jacob, but when she gets there, Billy says that they've gone off hunting Victoria because they found a fresh trail. After waiting for Jake in the his house for a while, she tells Billy that she'll be at the beach. And while she notices the weather, she's more concerned about Jake facing Victoria. So does the weather really register as a danger to her? Not really. when she looks at the cliffs on page 356 she only remembers the freedom that La Push kids seem to have when they jumped. Then on page 357, she says in the narration:

Jacob had promised to take me cliff diving, hadn't he? Just because he was unavailable, should I have to give up the distraction I needed so badly - needed even worse because Jacob was out risking his life?

I never said she did it to kill herself.

Sorry, I thought that when you mentioned that she has suicidal tendencies, that you meant she did it to kill herself. If you don't believe she was trying to kill herself why are you debating so strongly about the fact that she was so desperate to go up just because the weather was so bad? She was intending to go anyway.

[Jessica]

Lynne wrote: "Jesse wrote: "He did not. I have it on epub and my version has them talking of Jacob taking her cliff diving soon on page 88-89 and page 180 is where she approaches the cliff on her own to jump off..."

true, he did say he'd take her tomorrow. But now I have to actually go and look and see why were even talking of it to see what the whole point was.

I see now. You took what I said as literal, as her having picked the date and not what I meant which was that it was horrible weather and that the day wasn't a good day. But because cliff diving was the ultimate danger because she wasn't doing it for recreation nor safely and she just needed her fix that she jumped to what would've been her untimely demise if Jacob didn't go look for her on the beach.

" And while she notices the weather, she's more concerned about Jake facing Victoria. So does the weather really register as a danger to her?"

True, the weather didn't register to her. As I look back I can't see why this was an important piece of topic in our posts, it's lost on me. Oh well.

"Sorry, I thought that when you mentioned that she has suicidal tendencies, that you meant she did it to kill herself. "

And we come to the reason I didn't want this topic to be opened back up. It is tedious, everyone keeps ignoring what I say, and in the end it's at a stalemate.

People with suicidal tendencies more often than not don't actually want to die. They never do things that are very dangerous with the intent to kill themselves.

"If you don't believe she was trying to kill herself why are you debating so strongly about the fact that she was so desperate to go up just because the weather was so bad? She was intending to go anyway. "

It wasn't just the weather and I never believed she intended to kill herself. The main sole reason she intended to go, regardless of the weather was because she knows it's a dangerous activity that would bring about Edward in her mind. I can't even remember why I brought up the weather but it doesn't matter to my main point.

She knows cliff diving is dangerous. She shows it by her automatic reaction to seeing Sam dive. But because it's reckless, she needs to do it. That's why she intended to go anyway. Not for recreational purposes which is what I've been saying ever since the other thread. Everything else she did up to that point to conjure up Edward in her mind was harmless in comparison to cliff diving. that's why she does it, the danger is so great it brings Edward to her with such clarity, it's as if he's right there again with her. She doesn't do it for recreation. that is my point. I am tired of this topic because I talked it to death in the other thread. You are of course free to read that thread but if I'm just going to be repeating my past words then I no longer want to talk to you.

[Emma]

I agree! I think Bella is a strong character. I don't get why so many people hate twilight- there's so much to the story. I love the twilight series!

[Kaye]

yes.... you are the only person who thinks bella is a strong character.

[Jessica]

Maggie wrote: "If Bella didn't have Edward she probably would die from lack of oxygen and from starving to death because Edward wasn't there to remind her."

She can hardly remember to breath or blink when around him. and is mystified by her body's own reactions. It was so weird.

[Veda]

Bella, to me, has always been a strong character, even in all the books before she became a vampire she was always strong, and I agree with you in every aspect, but I could also see Edward sometimes coming up from behind and making her seem weak, but without looking at Edward (which may I remind you is a naturally strong vampire) I think that Bella is strong character because, heck if I were her I would have called my mom and gotten a first class ticket back to Phoenix, because I would not be able to stand so much danger.

[Kaye]

VEDA♡ ♛ wrote: "Bella, to me, has always been a strong character, even in all the books before she became a vampire she was always strong, and I agree with you in every aspect, but I could also see Edward sometime..."

But she never actually HAD to go to Forks- that was her choice... her mom even tells her she "doesn't have to go [to forks]" in the first chapter of the book. she could have stayed with her mom the whole time and traveled, which sounds like a wayyy better plot line to me anyway.

[Lynne]

Maxine wrote: "I never actually read any clearly strong female roles. ..."

I guess we all see things differently. I see strength in what is exhibited on the page. Perhaps we have different ideas of what constitutes strength in people.

[Lynne]

Jesse wrote: "I am tired of this topic because I talked it to death in the other thread. You are of course free to read that thread but if I'm just going to be repeating my past words then I no longer want to talk to you. "

I'm sorry if you've talked it to death elsewhere. I've only entered this conversation (although I too have discussed it elsewhere) so I was simply adding my take to the discourse.

As it turns out, I couldn't agree more that Bella was after the danger rush for her junkie fix, and did not intend to commit suicide. How about that? Something we agree on! :-)

[Lynne]

Maggie wrote: " To compare Stephanie Meyers pathetic book about a whiny teenage girl who is not strong, smart, or inspirational in anyway to works of fiction to heroines in books such as gone with the wind, Charlotte bronte or Jane Austen is an insult and they are turning over in their graves."

I think the Brontes certainly have something in common with Stephenie Meyer. In both cases, their books were polarising. While many people raved about the Brontes' books when they were published, there were many who said the books were 'coarse' and 'disgraceful' and panned them as rubbish that should never have seen the light of day. It's amazing how 200 years can change things. Critics rave about their books now and they are often used in schools.

[Mochaspresso]

Lynne wrote:
"I guess we all see things differently. I see strength in what is exhibited on the page. Perhaps we have different ideas of what constitutes strength in people. "

I think this is precisely where much of the disconnect on whether or not Bella displays strength comes from and why there will never be a universally accepted definitive answer to that question.

[Nichola]

Jordan wrote: "I have been in so many of these discussions, and obviously there are always haters. But a huge reasoning for why they hate the book is because Bella is a weak, single minded character. I did not ge..."

Have you never been head over heels, crazy in love with someone? I agree with Jordan and Meg on this point.

[Veda]

I REALLY loved Twilight, Bella was a strong character to me, it was Edward that made her look weak, you have to remember Bella isnt a vampire, but a human. Most humans arent that strong- like me, i would have chickened out for sure if I met a vampire

[Heidi]

Jesse wrote: "You keep listing recreational things that adrenaline junkies do and it sucks because I then have to keep repeating that Bella isn't an adrenaline junkie. She's not doing dangerous things purposely because she wants to feel the adrenaline rush, she's doing them so she can see and hear Edward because she cracked when he left her. She does dangerous things purposely without any proper training (or in case of the shady guys, did it because she knew that danger would bring Edward up). Adrenaline junkies know what they're doing and Bella did not. She just did it to see Edward, not get an adrenaline rush. Adrenaline rushes and hallucinations are not the same thing. "

I keep referring to it as an example of someone being addicted to something. Cocaine or any drug can also be used to refer to Bella being addicted, but adrenaline junkie is more close to the sort of junkie I think she has become. I do NOT think she has become an actual adrenaline junkie. I think that Bella has become an Edward junkie. And in order to get her fix, she has to do dangerous things. NOT kill herself. I keep on referring back to it, because shes in the same state mentally as someone who is addicted to adrenaline. She is an addict.

Jesse wrote: "He's not stupid for not wanting to turn her. He's selfish, but he had actual logical reasons for not turning her right then and there at the end of Twilight. So how can it be seen as her saying that she should've been turned sooner and not taunting the hallucination because the actual Edward wasn't there to keep her from putting herself in danger as she was currently doing at the time?"

I didn't say that he had no logical reasons for wanting to turn her. I'm saying implications could be translated in many ways. My reasoning is, that James bit her, and she could of been a vampire by now. I think there's resentment that he hasn't changed her and/or didn't let her change when James bit her. You think she implied she wanted to kill herself. I think she implied that hes a stupid head, and gods be damned she was going to do anything to get her fix and see Edward. And again, I think that in order to be suicidal you have to have the thought "I want to die". (since we were in her thoughts and never read that she wanted to die, that leads me to believe she didn't plan on dying. Being suicidal is premeditated) And for fun I googled what chapter Bella jumping off the cliff was (chapter 15) and reread a little bit. Before she headed out the door she told Billy that she'd be at the beach. (if your planning on killing yourself you usually don't tell people where your going to do it.) Also this passage "I'd really been counting on hearing Edward this morning. It seemed like that was the one thing that might make it bearable to live through this day". Which I personally think, supports her "Edward Junkie" mentality. Yes she saw the weather, it was coming, but it wasn't there yet. It also says when she looked at the cliff, she associated it with the "gang"(not wanting to kill herself). And when she jumped she thought "I hadn't had one moment of terror- just pure adrenaline" (because shes a freaking Edward junkie and then only thing that brings on these illusions, is adrenaline). Also " I'd been so preoccupied by the size of the cliffs, by the obvious danger of their high, sheer faces, that I hadn't worried at all about the dark water waiting" that thought Bella has leads me to believe, that her only thought of the possibility of dying was hitting the cliff on the way down. That there was no thought of her hitting the water and drowning, but that she just wanted to see her Edward no matter what.

Jessie said:
You say she was in a junkie mentality, and I say that she was depressed and had suicidal tendencies, that she toed the line of danger so much because she was depressed over Edward and if danger gave him to her, then danger is what she'd seek out.

She had a junkie mentality and was depressed as well. Her junkie mentality was "must do anything to see hallucinations no matter how dangerous".

[Heidi]

Jesse wrote: "It is when you don't do it properly, when you can't swim, when you just let the undercurrent sweep you away. Really, cliff diving to end your life might not be a good way to you, but it is a way. "

She swam at the public pool. Bella knows how to swim

[Heidi]

Maxine wrote: "People are all still arguing in such detail but I still say it comes down to one point and one point only.

Can Bella survive on her own?

She may be strong in some minor ways but when it comes down to it she had proven she cannot survive on her own and she needs a man to help protect her. I for one am never going to allow my daughter to read this book and get any ridiculous ideas from it. "

You also shouldn't let your daughter read Peter Pan. Wendy is not a good role model for young girls of an impressionable age. She ran away from home. Played house with a boy. Had inappropriate relations with older men. In fact, you shouldn't let her see any of the classics from Disney. Sleeping Beauty had no aspirations other then a prince coming to save her from her life. Cinderella could arguably be considered a gold digger. Most of the Disney "princesses" could be considered anti-feminist. (Why can't any of them be Queens? Or are only Queens evil and princesses who have a little power but not it all ok) I'm surprised weak minded women haven't gone into the dark ages with reading books and watching movies - that if you over think the story, is actually an evil anti-feminist thing. (yes I am being sarcastic)

[Jessica]

Heidi wrote: "She swam at the public pool. Bella knows how to swim "

If one more person thinks that I said that comparison to imply or outright say Bella doesn't know how to swim I will face palm myself. With a sledge hammer. How does that even look like I'm saying she can't swim?

[Jessica]

Heidi wrote: "I keep referring to it as an example of someone being addicted to something. Cocaine or any drug can also be used to refer to Bella being addicted, but adrenaline junkie is more close to the sort of junkie I think she has become. I do NOT think she has become an actual adrenaline junkie. I think that Bella has become an Edward junkie. And in order to get her fix, she has to do dangerous things. NOT kill herself. I keep on referring back to it, because shes in the same state mentally as someone who is addicted to adrenaline. She is an addict. "

But she's not doing it for the adrenaline rush. How is she an adrenaline junkie? How can it come close to the type of junkie she is if you say that then say she's an "Edward" junkie? These two are conflicting things that don't match up. People who are adrenaline junkies are not in the same mental state that Bella was in in New Moon. They are greatly separate from each other. Adrenaline junkies aren't depressed, they don't do dangerous things without at least first knowing how to do them without sustaining an injury and don't abuse the recreational activities to purposely put themselves in harms way so someone in their head can tell them not to do it.

"I didn't say that he had no logical reasons for wanting to turn her."

True, but your interpretation of that particular line went along the lines of him being a stupid ass because he didn't turn her and thus she was in the situation she was in, it being imminent death, because he didn't turn her sooner. Saying it like that to me implies that he had no reason to not turn her sooner, so he was a stupid ass for not doing so and thus it's his fault she's about to fling herself off the cliff.

"You think she implied she wanted to kill herself."

Don't presume to know what I think as I've said it many a times that I don't THINK that she wanted to kill herself. Oh my god, to have to keep repeating the same thing over and over but for no one to actually listen is so frustrating, you can't even imagine. It is violently frustrating to me that none of you are actually reading what I say. And you can't say that you are because if you were you wouldn't presume that I'm saying she wanted to kill herself when she threw herself off the cliff. And I hate that because I don't want to become frustrated or feel the urge to be violent when I'm having a civil conversation about topics I'm interested in. it's not fun for anyone participating. But when multiple people keep ignoring it and assume I mean the exact opposite even though I blatantly say multiple times that I didn't think she did anything in New Moon before flying off to Italy in order to kill herself, it makes me violently frustrated.

[Heidi]

Maxine wrote: "There is a difference between Disney Princess' and Bella... The Disney Princess' can SURVIVE without their princes. They are actually quite strong people because they can take care of themselves and don't need a man but like to be with him. Bella just plain needs Edward to the point where she would nearly kill herself to see his face every once in a while.

Please do not compare Bella to Disney. It's insulting. "

Bella had no problem surviving before she met Edward. It was only until she was in danger from a "super human" that she needed help. MegaMind had a female character just like this. Sleeping Beauty was surviving in the tower alright. Oh wait, didn't she need to be rescued?

[Heidi]

Jesse wrote: "But she's not doing it for the adrenaline rush. How is she an adrenaline junkie? How can it come close to the type of junkie she is if you say that then say she's an "Edward" junkie? These two are conflicting things that don't match up. People who are adrenaline junkies are not in the same mental state that Bella was in in New Moon. They are greatly separate from each other. Adrenaline junkies aren't depressed, they don't do dangerous things without at least first knowing how to do them without sustaining an injury and don't abuse the recreational activities to purposely put themselves in harms way so someone in their head can tell them not to do it. "

If you reread what I put, shes LIKE an adrenaline junkie in terms that she wants her fix. She is essentially an addict of hallucinations that seem to be brought on BY adrenaline. I realize your not happy when someone doesn't understand you. But reading your reply seems to me you have no idea what I was trying to convey. Let me break it down for you, you contradict yourself. See below.

Jessie said:"Don't presume to know what I think as I've said it many a times that I don't THINK that she wanted to kill herself.

Really in reply 525 you said "Basically what it boils down to is that Bella and the La Push boys did it for different reasons, which is why people saw it as her trying to kill herself." So you don't believe she was trying to kill herself, you just brought it up even though you don't believe it? That doesn't make sense to me. But, ok. You also followed up with "This is a big glaring difference on why one group was doing it for recreation and the other was doing it to harm themselves." Which again doesn't make sense to me why would you bring this up in the same post if you don't think she was trying to kill herself? Both of those statements support/imply that's what you believe. Post 528 you said "If you consider suicide after willingly moving yourself from one parent to another and a boyfriend broke up with you then you need help because you have problems that stem from issues other than a broken heart. ". And then in the same post put "Bella knew that she wouldn't make it if she jumped." If Bella knew she wouldn't make it if she jumped, what is a word that you can use to describe this?Hmm, this is a tough one, but let me take a "stab" at it- suicidal? (which again btw never says anywhere in the books that Bella knew she wouldn't make it). But no, you don't believe she was... as you've been saying, right? According to you, Bella knew she wouldn't make it, but she wasn't suicidal.

I think you said it best when you said "These two are conflicting things that don't match up."

[Jessica]

Heidi wrote: "
Really in reply 525 you said "Basically what it boils down to is that Bella and the La Push boys did it for different reasons, which is why people saw it as her trying to kill herself." So you don't believe she was trying to kill herself, you just brought it up even though you don't believe it? That doesn't make sense to me. But, ok. You also followed up with "This is a big glaring difference on why one group was doing it for recreation and the other was doing it to harm themselves." Which again doesn't make sense to me why would you bring this up in the same post if you don't think she was trying to kill herself? Both of those statements support/imply that's what you believe."

Except none of this shows what I myself actually think or says, " I think she tried to kill herself, here's why." In plain English, I am saying instead, "To be fair, some people think she tried to kill herself, here's why." I never said it as in I believed she tried to kill herself. This isn't me contradicting myself, this is me saying why some people would think she tried, WHICH IS WHAT I SAID IN THE QUOTE OF MYSELF THAT YOU GAVE.

"You also followed up with "This is a big glaring difference on why one group was doing it for recreation and the other was doing it to harm themselves." Which again doesn't make sense to me why would you bring this up in the same post if you don't think she was trying to kill herself? "

I bring up the recreational bit because you and select others kept saying, in this thread and the other one, that she jumped off the cliff for recreational purposes. To which I said that she did not.

" Post 528 you said "If you consider suicide after willingly moving yourself from one parent to another and a boyfriend broke up with you then you need help because you have problems that stem from issues other than a broken heart. ". And then in the same post put "Bella knew that she wouldn't make it if she jumped." If Bella knew she wouldn't make it if she jumped, what is a word that you can use to describe this?Hmm, this is a tough one, but let me take a "stab" at it- suicidal?"

For the first one you took it out of context to support the notion that I contradicted myself. I said that because of what who I was replying to said. That poster said that because Bella moved from one home to another because of her mother choosing to be on the road instead of raise her (which isn't true), move in with a father that she barely knew (isn't true), and go from one place(Sunny Arizona) to "one of the most sunless and depressing places in the US. She had to face a new school", then "I think a lot of people would have considered suicide in that situation."

In that post I never said that she was considering suicide just because she moved cities and gotten her heart broken. I was rebutting what J. said because I didn't believe Bella would kill herself simply because of those two things.

And I say that she must have known she wouldn't make it because this is a stunt she's never done before and because of the not so calm water. Yes, Bella doesn't say that she knew she wouldn't make it till after she jumped, but I don't want to think that she couldn't have known before because this is a thing she's never done and is one of the most dangerous and reckless things she's done, as she said in that chapter. For that reason, I want believe that she must of known the chances of her making it before she jumped. And the chance was very little, since she's never done it before, jumped from the highest point, and didn't have any safety should something go wrong.

As I said, don't presume to know what I think and if you want to quote me to say I contradicted myself, read the whole thing first. It's all I ask, all I've been asking for.

[Heidi]

Maxine wrote: "And for the last time will everyone stop telling me she survived before she met Edward? My main argument as to why I dislike her and think she is weak is because when Edward left she did stupid stunts that could have killed her in order to see his face. That is not strong in my mind, that is desperate and quite pathetic. "

Well, if you take into consideration when she was "being pathetic" she was doing so with another guy (apparently healing and moving on is pathetic?). If Edward hadn't come back in her life, she would have moved on (this is pathetic?). Sleeping Beauty was cursed, and all we know of her is her only aspirations were meeting a prince. VS Bella, who had no idea what she wanted to do with her life - but the last thing she wanted to do was get married. This is the example you want for your daughter?

[Heidi]

Jesse wrote: "As I said, don't presume to know what I think and if you want to quote me to say I contradicted myself, read the whole thing first. It's all I ask, all I've been asking for. "

Yet, you did the same thing to me. Interesting.

Jesse wrote: "And I say that she must have known she wouldn't make it because this is a stunt she's never done before and because of the not so calm water."

So every stunt shes never done before she knows she wont make it, or just this one? I'm curious because, when she rode a bike with a stranger, did she know she was going to make it that time? Or when she rode her bike for the first time by herself, did she know she was going to make it. Is this just selective with the jumping off the cliff stunt she knew or was it for every stunt?

[Jessica]

Heidi wrote: "Sleeping Beauty was cursed, and all we know of her is her only aspirations were meeting a prince."

" Sleeping Beauty was surviving in the tower alright. Oh wait, didn't she need to be rescued?"

"Sleeping Beauty had no aspirations other then a prince coming to save her from her life."

Trigger warnings for a sensitive topic.

Weeeeell, if we truly want to go into the nitty gritty with Sleeping Beauty, her aspiration was to be saved, not to obtain a prince charming who wakes her up with the kiss of true love and live happily ever after. In the original she was put to sleep because of a prophesy not a curse, her 'savoir' rapes her and she gives birth in her sleep to children. She wakes up because one of the children sucks on her finger, removing the flax that kept her asleep and she then discovers that she was raped and has two children.

So no, you can't count sleeping beauty as someone who needed a man to survive..

[Jessica]

Heidi wrote: "Well, if you take into consideration when she was "being pathetic" she was doing so with another guy (apparently healing and moving on is pathetic?). If Edward hadn't come back in her life, she would have moved on (this is pathetic?). "

Well I thought of her as pathetic and two-timing in New Moon. She was leading Jacob on though her heart belong to Edward and she kept giving Jacob the implication that there could be something more with her when she was never going to be in a relationship with him, didn't even want to kiss him. She was doing it because she wanted someone to be strong for her, instead of being strong herself and so was trying to move on with Jacob. She wasn't exactly healing and trying to move on if she was putting herself in danger to see Edward. That's not healing or moving on. And if so, her version of moving on is immediately jumping into another serious relationship with another guy. Not exactly the right thing to do.

Let's dive into this hypothetical scenario you present. If Bella didn't jump off the cliff and thus activated the chain reaction that brought back Edward, how can it be said that she would've moved on? She clearly showed that she wasn't moving on nor was ready to. What's to say that she was more likely to try to move on with her life and forgive Edward for leaving her and breaking her heart in one of the most douche like ways instead of putting herself in more and more dangerous reckless acts of rebellion (rebelling against his wish for her to stay out of trouble)and ultimately putting herself in the hospital or killing herself?

[Heidi]

Maxine wrote: "And okay, Sleeping Beauty wasn't the best for strong girls but it's a disney films for kids. An old disney movie for kids btw. In fact one film I will definitely let my daughter see is things like Brave. But obviously I will let them see things like Sleeping Beauty. You know why? Because none of the disney films have a girl do stupid things that could end in her dying just to see her boyfriends face. "

And honestly, my sarcasm can get away from me. I apologize for going overboard. My main point is, there are a lot of stories we think are innocent until we take a second look at them. The fact is, most impressional people are going to read this book and enjoy it or hate it, and not dissect it into a million pieces. Just like most people will look at Sleeping Beauty and think there's nothing wrong with it. The same as princess Jasmine, whos main goal was to get away from the castle. Only to meet Aladdin and go back to the castle she was trying to escape.

[Jessica]

Heidi wrote: "Yet, you did the same thing to me. Interesting."

I would love for you to show me where.

"So every stunt shes never done before she knows she wont make it, or just this one? I'm curious because, when she rode a bike with a stranger, did she know she was going to make it that time? Or when she rode her bike for the first time by herself, did she know she was going to make it. Is this just selective with the jumping off the cliff stunt she knew or was it for every stunt? "

It's not like I'm saying that every thing she's never done she's not going to make it ("It" being make it out alive or just unscathed)but there has to be a limit of things one can experience that has varying levels of injuries one can acquire that they just have to ask, "Am I going to make it?" This was one of them. So I chose to believe that she must have known she wouldn't make it, be it make it out alive or come out of the water unscathed.

[Jessica]

Maxine wrote: "Jesse wrote: "Heidi wrote: "Sleeping Beauty was cursed, and all we know of her is her only aspirations were meeting a prince."

" Sleeping Beauty was surviving in the tower alright. Oh wait, didn't..."

No sweat! I love the fairytales stories, new and old, but I think if someone wants to say the "Disney" princesses are pathetic and need a man to survive then I think one would need to take in the original, not the new ones.

Speaking of, how can one group Jasmine in this labeling of girls who need a man to survive? Or Mulan? This is why I don't like it when people are talking about a group of others and say words that describes the majority of them. It really irks me. Then the person in question feels some kind of way because I correct them, and no one is happy.