Am I the only one thinks Bella is a strong character??

[Marilyn]

And why couldn't she be a strong character when she was human?

[Maxine]

Personally I don't see her as a strong character. To me she doesn't really show any strong features until after she is turned into a vampire and even then there isn't much.

[Redhairdontcare]

Everthing is about her. She has so many people who love her , and she still managed to hurt all of them because she can't make a decision. It is always implied that Edward and the other vampires are better, because they richer, faster, smarter , stronger, and beautiful. Bella has an inferiority complex when it comes to Edward, and constantly frets when he gives her things, because she doesn't have anything for him. She constantly marvels over the fact that he " chose" her in the first place. Also, she seems to not be able to function properly unless there is someone completely in love ( obsessed) with her. When Edward leaves her, she went into a serious depression, only to be brought out of it, by another boy. She never has to work for or sacrifice anything. It all gets handed to her on a silver platter. Meyer goes as far as to break rules that she had previously set up (vampires can't have babies) so Bella can get what she wants. She needs constant validation from others concerning her actions That is not a strong character, in the slightest

[Italia8989]

Redhairdontcare wrote: "Everthing is about her. She has so many people who love her , and she still managed to hurt all of them because she can't make a decision. It is always implied that E..."

Agreed.

[Spa]

ya u r the only one who thinks tht

[Lynne]

It's clear that Twilight creates polarising opinions. This is actually a sign that Stephenie Meyer is a good writer, as so many differing points of view can come out of her story. It reminds me of what I've read about the reaction Wuthering Heights received when it was released. Many people raved about it, but there were others who despised it because of the shocking behaviour of the characters on its pages. One thing that could not be denied, however, was Emily Bronte's talent in bringing those characters to life.

I think everyone will always project onto Bella what they think she should be. Why? Because it is a vicarious read. When you read it, you become Bella, and some people become upset because she doesn't respond the way they would. We are all sucked into the story, but some people don't enjoy the ride.

For me personally, I believe that Bella is a strong character. I have never understood the people who said she wasn't. Is she perfect? No way. Is she flawed? Absolutely. But she wouldn't be human if she wasn't.

Here are signs of Bella's strength:
* She has looked after her mother for years. This is not an easy thing to do from a young age.
* As soon as she arrives at her father's house she begins to care for him.
* When believing her mother is in danger, she immediately does the only thing she thinks will save her - sacrifice herself.
* In spite of the fact that the love of her life leaves, she manages to continue living a semblance of a life (albeit robotically) for the sake of her father. It must be remembered that this is more than Edward himself manages.
* She volunteers to try and save Edward from the Volturi, even though she knows they may well kill her for simply knowing they exist.
* She does not run or collapse into hysterics when two werewolves transform in front of her.
* She does not run or collapse into hysterics when she realises an entire army of newborn vampires is coming to kill her. Instead, she wants to go and meet them so that nobody else gets hurt.
* When she realises that she is pregnant with a child that will likely kill her, she wants to try and carry it anyway for its sake.
* She stays to fight with her family to save her daughter, even though she knows they may well all be killed.

Now I'm sure many of the things above people will say are signs that she's actually really stupid. Perhaps there is reason to think that, perhaps not. After all, as I said earlier, she's just as flawed as the rest of us. However, this post is about whether she is strong or not, so I am answering that.

Also, people will immediately point out just how devastated Bella was at Edward's departure, and say that is clear evidence that she is not strong. I'm not so sure about that. Yes, she did curl up for months and do little, but so do many people who lose loved ones in a permanent way. In the end, she did manage to get up again. While Jacob may have facilitated this, I believe she would have anyway, eventually. Certainly, there was strength in the fact that she managed to keep going. Also, it's clear that Stephenie Meyer gave her this kind of reaction to show the depth of her love for Edward and the heightening of sense that become apparent when dealing with vampires. Although Bella isn't a vampire at this point, it's clear SM felt that it was necessary to facilitate this kind of response in Bella to demonstrate to Edward just how strong their bond was, rather than intending for it to be taken as a sign of weakness. Also, as I noted above, Edward didn't even manage as well as Bella did. As he himself pointed out, at least she got up and went on with her life and tried to be normal for her father's sake.

In the end, though, everyone's going to see what they want to see. As I said at the beginning, we project ourselves onto Bella. Maybe I've always just understood her, as I have had similar self-esteem issues. A lot of people do. Maybe it takes that in a person for someone to see Bella as a strong character rather than a weak one. When someone understands how difficult it can be to overcome those issues, to see her shine like she does by the end of the series can only be seen as strength.

[Jessica]

I just want to start off by saying that I hope you don't think me as a bad person for giving you a rebuttal.

Lynne wrote: "It's clear that Twilight creates polarising opinions. This is actually a sign that Stephenie Meyer is a good writer, as so many differing points of view can come out of her story."

This, I want to say, is in my opinion all out wrong. It doesn't make her a great writer simply because people have differing opinions on the topic of her series. If that were so then everyone would be a great writer.

"Here are signs of Bella's strength:
* She has looked after her mother for years. This is not an easy thing to do from a young age.

* As soon as she arrives at her father's house she begins to care for him."

It might just be me, but I never saw Bella as looking after her parents. They survived long before she has come into their world and has survived when she went off to live with her father. I hated that Meyer made Charlie out to not know how to take proper care of himself. He's been without Bella for several long years and he still fed himself, clothed himself, kept the house stocked of it's proper house needs, kept the place clean and running smoothly, and even took care of organizing Bella's room to her liking.

Bella only cooked because she didn't want to eat what her father ate, and I can't exactly say Bella took care of house when she was barely there.

"* When believing her mother is in danger, she immediately does the only thing she thinks will save her - sacrifice herself."

Yes, this one does show strength about her, but how could this have happened? Bella was in the room with Alice and Jasper who have super hero level hearing, able to hear her heartbeat from far away, how could they not have heard James? And in the end, she didn't sacrifice herself but played into his trap, gotten bit, got in the way, and needed saving. More logic should've been in this scene than there were.


"* In spite of the fact that the love of her life leaves, she manages to continue living a semblance of a life (albeit robotically) for the sake of her father. It must be remembered that this is more than Edward himself manages."

let's take a look at the life she lives after Edward leaves her;

After Edward leaves her in the forest, she runs after him, stating and I quote, " If I stopped looking for him, It was over. Love, life, meaning....over." After looking for some time she trips and falls and stays down, not to forget to mention that she's now lost. She stays curled up in the wet grass in the dark, exposed to the elements and dangers, completely conscious but had no will to move to try to find home.

When she's found and taken home she finds that her things of Edward are gone and lapses into depression for four months. Four very blank pages with only October, November, December, and January to state the passage of time. She did not live for herself. she did not live for her father's sake. No, she only lived for Edward and since he left, she's nothing but a person taking up space. She has no meaning anymore, as she stated. She didn't live, she existed, doing just enough and living life day by grey, dull, void days until finally her father can take it no more and says that he will send her to her mother.

Now, Bella can't move several states away to one of the sunniest places on earth (or at least one of the states), because what if the Cullens come back and she's not there? And Edward certainly can't come to her if she's in FL. So she pretends to do more than exist, until she finds out that doing dangerous things will give her hallucinations of her long lost love. The rest, to wrap this up and bring it to a point, is history.

My point is that Bella didn't do as you stated. she didn't live for her father, as she shouldn't. She should live for herself but she didn't. She doesn't care about her father. To her, her father is just in the way of her and Edward.

"* She does not run or collapse into hysterics when two werewolves transform in front of her."

I can't really say this one represents her inner strength. I mean if this is acceptable then one could say that her objections and illness thereafter to blood can be seen as a weakness. These two are on the same level. They don't show weakness, they don't represent strength. they're just things. It's like someone reacting badly to seeing someone transform in front of them. It doesn't make them weak to have rightly freaked out over it, or were even scared. And I do believe that before the scene you're thinking of, Jacob already turned to save her and she knew that him and his tribe weren't going to harm her.


"* She does not run or collapse into hysterics when she realises an entire army of newborn vampires is coming to kill her. Instead, she wants to go and meet them so that nobody else gets hurt."

As you later stated, this can be seen as foolish, and it is. But on the other hand, she has a army of equal number and greater strength to protect her. there's not much strength to be seen from someone whose only purpose during the fight is to stay out of the way.

"* She stays to fight with her family to save her daughter, even though she knows they may well all be killed."

And with this one, I definitely can say doesn't show her strength. Mental at least, which I believe is the one that was in question. She's by then overpowered with her new found powers and her vampirism, powerful enough to take on Jane. There is no fight, there's no need for her, she doesn't nothing but stand and talk. Where is her strength?

[Lynne]

Jesse wrote: "This, I want to say, is in my opinion all out wrong. It doesn't make her a great writer simply because people have differing opinions on the topic of her series. If that were so then everyone would be a great writer. "

Perhaps it's not the only thing that makes her that. I would probably have been better saying that it can be a sign of that. However, you are wrong in saying that this would make everyone a great writer. Not everyone's work creates polarising opinions. Some don't impress people enough to do that.

Jesse wrote: "It might just be me, but I never saw Bella as looking after her parents. They survived long before she has come into their world and has survived when she went off to live with her father."

I believe the story makes it clear that Bella looked after her mother. Bella says to herself that at least with Phil having married her mother now, 'The bills would probably get paid, etc' thus indicating that her mother never managed to do things like that. Her mother asks Bella where her blouse is, having completely forgotten that it was at the dry cleaner's. Why? Because it's clear that Bella used to manage all those things for her.
As for Charlie, yes, he obviously ate, but as Bella looks around his house and in his fridge when she first arrives, it's pretty clear he's not living on much more than a few cans and some TV dinners. Not exactly a great diet. She stocks the fridge so that there's some good food in there and starts trying to get her dad to eat properly.
Yes, her parents could survive without her, but not easily or well. It's likely Bella started realising her mother needed help when the electricity and phone kept getting disconnected, etc, because her mother forgot to pay the bills. I imagine that she stepped in to fix this up as soon as she was old enough.

Yes, this one does show strength about her, but how could this have happened? Bella was in the room with Alice and Jasper who have super hero level hearing, able to hear her heartbeat from far away, how could they not have heard James?

It would be more difficult to hear on a phone, I imagine, especially since James would be able to lower his voice enough so that only Bella could hear it. There are a few times, in the presence of vampires, when Edward lowers his voice and Bella says that it's 'so low that no one else could hear it'. It's not impossible that James could do this, especially when using a phone.

And in the end, she didn't sacrifice herself but played into his trap, gotten bit, got in the way, and needed saving. More logic should've been in this scene than there were.

She did sacrifice herself. Simply going to him, willing to give herself in her mother's place, was an act of sacrifice. Yes, it was a trap, but that doesn't lessen the sense of sacrifice in the act, which was in going in the first place.

My point is that Bella didn't do as you stated. she didn't live for her father, as she shouldn't. She should live for herself but she didn't. She doesn't care about her father. To her, her father is just in the way of her and Edward.

I did not say that she did live for her father, I said that she "manages to continue living a semblance of a life (albeit robotically) for the sake of her father" There is a difference. What I said implies that she made the effort, although her success was negligible. However, she did make the effort, and did have some success, as she continued in school and, as Edward said, tried to carry on for her father's sake (again, more than Edward managed). Her success was limited, but given that she did have more success with Jake's help, there's every reason to think that she would have recovered to some degree eventually, even with no help.

They don't show weakness, they don't represent strength. they're just things. It's like someone reacting badly to seeing someone transform in front of them. It doesn't make them weak to have rightly freaked out over it, or were even scared. And I do believe that before the scene you're thinking of, Jacob already turned to save her and she knew that him and his tribe weren't going to harm her.

No, I'm pretty sure that's the first time she sees him change. (I can't check my copy at the moment, as it's boxed). She sees the wolves themselves earlier, when she's in the meadow with Laurent, but she has no idea then that they have anything to do with Jake and his pack. So that scene is the first time she sees them transform.

And there was every reason to believe, when Paul transformed in front of her on the road, that he would harm her. He transformed out of anger that Jake has told Bella the truth. He was furious, and she knows that it's not something she's supposed to know about. Jacob has already told her that they lack control. She should be afraid.

And they're not just 'things'. To have something like that happen in front of you and not scream and run for cover takes a degree of self control and strength.

As you later stated, this can be seen as foolish, and it is. But on the other hand, she has a army of equal number and greater strength to protect her. there's not much strength to be seen from someone whose only purpose during the fight is to stay out of the way.

While the army may be of greater strength, she does not believe that. She thinks that Jake and his wolves are too weak and inexperienced to fight off this many vampires. And even though her 'army' is strong, the possibility that someone she loves will die is still there. This is borne out when Jake is seriously injured. So she has good reason to be concerned.

And with this one, I definitely can say doesn't show her strength. Mental at least, which I believe is the one that was in question. She's by then overpowered with her new found powers and her vampirism, powerful enough to take on Jane. There is no fight, there's no need for her, she doesn't nothing but stand and talk. Where is her strength?

Her strength is clearly demonstrated in her willingness to fight, and in the recognition that the best way she can do that is in standing and shielding everyone else, which is what she decides at the end when talking to Edward, when Zafrina says that she will guard Bella. She recognises her strength and what she offers to the fight and elects to stand out of the way, where she can do the most good.

Not to mention, that anyone who went and stood in that field at all showed strength. The likelihood that they would never leave it was high. Now, since Bella's family was involved, the fact that she's stayed to fight for them is not surprising. It should be that way. But I don't think that fact lessens the strength in doing it, especially since she has every reason to believe (from what she has gathered from Alice) that the majority of them will be killed. She is hoping Nessie will get away, but even that is not guaranteed.

[Jessica]

Lynne wrote: "Perhaps it's not the only thing that makes her that. I would probably have been better saying that it can be a sign of that. However, you are wrong in saying that this would make everyone a great writer. Not everyone's work creates polarising opinions. Some don't impress people enough to do that."

Then I would again have to say that it's not a factor because then everyone would be great authors. Every author's work makes people take opposing sides, you can't find a book on here where there isn't two sides butting heads.

"I believe the story makes it clear that Bella looked after her mother. Bella says to herself that at least with Phil having married her mother now, 'The bills would probably get paid, etc' thus indicating that her mother never managed to do things like that."

And she hasn't been able to do all of that without another person doing it for her? That is really unbelievable. And not to be nit-picky, but it doesn't explicitly say that Bella did all those things she listed did because her mother never did consistently for whatever reason.

"Her mother asks Bella where her blouse is, having completely forgotten that it was at the dry cleaner's. Why? Because it's clear that Bella used to manage all those things for her."

I don't feel like going through all four books to find this on particular moment, care to share further info?

"As for Charlie, yes, he obviously ate, but as Bella looks around his house and in his fridge when she first arrives, it's pretty clear he's not living on much more than a few cans and some TV dinners. Not exactly a great diet. She stocks the fridge so that there's some good food in there and starts trying to get her dad to eat properly."

The same with this, it's not in the first book and it's too late where I am to look through my other books. Like I said, she only cooks because she doesn't want to eat what her dad eats, that's more so looking out for number one, rather than doing it with her father in mind.

"Yes, her parents could survive without her, but not easily or well."

If they didn't live easily or well without her then they would've been dead by now. They do fine without her, and she only ever does anything with her in mind, not explicitly because she wants to take care of them.

"It would be more difficult to hear on a phone, I imagine, especially since James would be able to lower his voice enough so that only Bella could hear it. There are a few times, in the presence of vampires, when Edward lowers his voice and Bella says that it's 'so low that no one else could hear it'. It's not impossible that James could do this, especially when using a phone."

This is very hard to believe, since a heart beat inside a person's chest is harder to hear than a voice from a phone that was not lowered. A voice from a phone that is across the room from them, mind you. They can hear conversations over great distances, why could they not have heard James? On the topic of that, how can Edward speak so low that Bella can hear it but not other vampires in the room and within ten feet of her? What sense does this make to you? Vampire hearing is superior to human hearing, how can they not hear him anyway, or he spoke so low to make sure that they don't that he made it so Bella didn't hear him?

"She did sacrifice herself. Simply going to him, willing to give herself in her mother's place, was an act of sacrifice. Yes, it was a trap, but that doesn't lessen the sense of sacrifice in the act, which was in going in the first place."

It's not a sacrifice is no one loses anything. The only one who lost something was James and it was his life. Bella throughout the entire series never sacrifices anything, she only ever gains and gains things which she never worked for.

"I did not say that she did live for her father, I said that she "manages to continue living a semblance of a life (albeit robotically) for the sake of her father" There is a difference."

Which holds the same meaning as the way I said it.

"What I said implies that she made the effort, although her success was negligible. However, she did make the effort, and did have some success, as she continued in school and, as Edward said, tried to carry on for her father's sake (again, more than Edward managed)."

She made no effort until her father threatened to send her home. And that lasted up until she realized that she could have more of Edward by putting herself in danger.

"And they're not just 'things'. To have something like that happen in front of you and not scream and run for cover takes a degree of self control and strength."

It is a thing that's not very mentionable because at the same time it's not a weakness to scream and duck for cover, that's rational instinct.

"While the army may be of greater strength, she does not believe that. She thinks that Jake and his wolves are too weak and inexperienced to fight off this many vampires. And even though her 'army' is strong, the possibility that someone she loves will die is still there. This is borne out when Jake is seriously injured. So she has good reason to be concerned. "

It was never there because Meyer would never kill her beloved characters. Not a moment in the series could one think, "Oh my God, this is it, ___ might die." Because Meyer can't do it.

"Her strength is clearly demonstrated in her willingness to fight, and in the recognition that the best way she can do that is in standing and shielding everyone else, which is what she decides at the end when talking to Edward, when Zafrina says that she will guard Bella. She recognises her strength and what she offers to the fight and elects to stand out of the way, where she can do the most good.

Not to mention, that anyone who went and stood in that field at all showed strength. The likelihood that they would never leave it was high. Now, since Bella's family was involved, the fact that she's stayed to fight for them is not surprising. It should be that way. But I don't think that fact lessens the strength in doing it, especially since she has every reason to believe (from what she has gathered from Alice) that the majority of them will be killed. She is hoping Nessie will get away, but even that is not guaranteed. "

To all this I have but one thing to say; If she needs to be a mary sue vampire to be strong with all her improbably powers and abilities, then she was never strong in the first place, she was always a weakling.

[Melanie]

Bella is not a strong character in the beginning of the series. Honestly what do we expect out of a 17 year old girl? She grows and develops as the story continues and that is part of the story that I really liked. We get to see her spread her wings as time goes on. We get to see her learn how to stand up for herself and the ones she loves as the books progress. This I think is part of the beauty of the story. It is the journey of a young girl growing into a woman and finding her way.

[Lynne]

Jesse wrote: "Then I would again have to say that it's not a factor because then everyone would be great authors. Every author's work makes people take opposing sides, you can't find a book on here where there isn't two sides butting heads."

I disagree. I've seen some stories that don't generate much, if any comment. Especially not to this level. I've certainly seen it in my role as a professional editor. There are numerous works out there that tread safe ground and don't seem to say anything contentious.

Besides, I'm talking about more than just two people taking two different sides in an argument here. When it comes to Twilight, it goes a lot further than that. People on both sides often seem to think it's life or death to convince the other that their point of view is wrong. The passion generated by both lovers and haters goes beyond a mere disagreement over a couple of minor opinions. Is this passion a sign of great writing? I think so. To inspire loyalty to that level is not something that is easily done.

And she hasn't been able to do all of that without another person doing it for her? That is really unbelievable. And not to be nit-picky, but it doesn't explicitly say that Bella did all those things she listed did because her mother never did consistently for whatever reason.

No, it doesn't specifically say that she did that, but it is implied. As I quoted earlier, Bella reminds her mother where the blouse she can't find is (it is Bella that her mother asks to locate it, which implies that she is used to Bella finding things for her). Bella mentions to herself, in the books, that now that her mother has Phil, bills will be paid and so on. This is a clear suggestion that her mother doesn't usually get around to paying the bills herself. I don't think it's difficult to come the conclusion that Bella did a lot of things for her. Novels don't usually spell everything out for the reader. It takes too long. It's something the reader works out by reading what's there and coming to conclusions because of that information. And it's not unbelievable. There are people out there who are so disorganised they don't do those kinds of things well (my boss is one of them!)

Here's a quote from page 27 about Bella looking around Charlie's kitchen. "I also found out that he had no food in the house. So I had my shopping list and the cash from the jar in the cupboard that labeled FOOD MONEY, and I was on my way to Thriftway."
So Charlie has no food in the house. That's not really something you'd expect from someone accustomed to eating a reasonably healthy diet, especially when Charlie has known for some time that his daughter was coming to live with him. It's not like she turned up unannounced. Why wouldn't he stock up before she arrived? That would be sensible. Probably because it didn't even occur to him to do that.

If they didn't live easily or well without her then they would've been dead by now.

I guess we'll agree to disagree on that one, then. In my mind, a guy who eats nothing but fried eggs and bacon every night and nothing else is not living easily, although I'd say he could survive on it. In my mind, someone who forgets to pay their bills isn't being responsible. These are things Bella takes care of at an age younger than most of us would have to worry about them. Missing out on paying bills or a healthy diet isn't probably going to kill either of them (immediately anyway) but in my mind, it's not really taking care of yourself properly, especially if you have a dependent living in the house with you.

This is very hard to believe, since a heart beat inside a person's chest is harder to hear than a voice from a phone that was not lowered. A voice from a phone that is across the room from them, mind you. They can hear conversations over great distances, why could they not have heard James? On the topic of that, how can Edward speak so low that Bella can hear it but not other vampires in the room and within ten feet of her? What sense does this make to you? Vampire hearing is superior to human hearing, how can they not hear him anyway, or he spoke so low to make sure that they don't that he made it so Bella didn't hear him?

Being a vampire, and knowing how to hide things like that would mean that it is at least plausible that they would know how to do that, perhaps with vocal modulation or something like that. Heartbeats probably stand out to vampires most, because it's associated with blood, but it doesn't say they hear everything else that's happening in human's bodies (which can certainly be quite noisy!) so it may just be heartbeats that they hear because of their diet. It is not impossible to think that there may be ways they can modulate their voices so other vampires couldn't hear them. In fact, they have probably needed to find ways to do this (as we all do) to keep certain secrets.

It's not a sacrifice is no one loses anything. The only one who lost something was James and it was his life. Bella throughout the entire series never sacrifices anything, she only ever gains and gains things which she never worked for.

She is willing to do it though. That's what's strong about it. She goes willingly with every intention of giving up her life for her mother. Are you saying that just because it didn't happen that way, it means that it's not a real sacrifice on her part? Every step she made towards James was a sacrifice. The sacrifice of her life for her mother's. Just because she was tricked by James does not lessen the nobility of her willingness to give up her life.

She made no effort until her father threatened to send her home. And that lasted up until she realized that she could have more of Edward by putting herself in danger.

Yes she did. She got up every day, went to school and tried to be normal. It didn't work at that stage, but she tried. He realised that she was just trying, but she DID make an effort. Bella herself refers to this when she overhears Charlie's conversation with Alice. Bella says, 'I hadn't fooled him at all, not for one second'. This is after Charlie has pointed out to Alice that she went to school and ate and slept and did her homework. As Edward points out when he returns (and he's probably seen this in Charlie's mind), 'You got up in the morning, tried to be normal for Charlie, followed the pattern of your life'. So she did make an effort, and that was before Charlie threatened to send her to Phoenix to live with her mother. Just after that happened, Bella arranged to go out with Jessica, which is just before she starts going to Jacob on a regular basis. So she was trying before that. She just wasn't fooling anyone. But she did make an effort.

It is a thing that's not very mentionable because at the same time it's not a weakness to scream and duck for cover, that's rational instinct.

That probably depends on the situation and exactly who you're asking. And running away or collapsing in hysterics is not necessarily something everyone would do.

It was never there because Meyer would never kill her beloved characters. Not a moment in the series could one think, "Oh my God, this is it, ___ might die." Because Meyer can't do it.

Yes, but Bella doesn't know that, does she? I find it strange that you'd think that Bella shouldn't have been afraid just because the author wasn't able to kill anyone off.

I think a lot of people would have found more at fault with the story if Bella was cavalier about the risks all the time. Enough people complain that she's not scared enough of the Cullens. If she wasn't scared at all that wouldn't be even remotely plausible.

To all this I have but one thing to say; If she needs to be a mary sue vampire to be strong with all her improbably powers and abilities, then she was never strong in the first place, she was always a weakling.

She was definitely physically weak when she was human, but she is weak in no way when she is a vampire.

[Jessica]

Lynne wrote: "I disagree. I've seen some stories that don't generate much, if any comment. Especially not to this level. I've certainly seen it in my role as a professional editor. There are numerous works out there that tread safe ground and don't seem to say anything contentious.

Besides, I'm talking about more than just two people taking two different sides in an argument here. When it comes to Twilight, it goes a lot further than that. People on both sides often seem to think it's life or death to convince the other that their point of view is wrong. The passion generated by both lovers and haters goes beyond a mere disagreement over a couple of minor opinions. Is this passion a sign of great writing? I think so. To inspire loyalty to that level is not something that is easily done.

But it isn't. There's a lot more that goes into being considered as a great writer than the reaction of fans, like the writing of the author, which is what really counts. And that is where she strikes out.

"No, it doesn't specifically say that she did that, but it is implied. As I quoted earlier, Bella reminds her mother where the blouse she can't find is (it is Bella that her mother asks to locate it, which implies that she is used to Bella finding things for her)."

Yes, because when my mother asks me where her things are, it's a total sign that she can't do things for her own self because of x,y, and z reasons and not simply because she wants help looking for it. Look, for this one it's really speculation and it just sounds really trivial, like it wasn't as big as you're making it out to be. I don't remember it, you didn't say the book so that I may see it in context, it would really help if you said where it was from so that I may see it as well.

"Bella mentions to herself, in the books, that now that her mother has Phil, bills will be paid and so on. This is a clear suggestion that her mother doesn't usually get around to paying the bills herself. I don't think it's difficult to come the conclusion that Bella did a lot of things for her."

I'm not saying it's improbable, I'm just saying that I don't see it as Bella implying that she did all that she listed. You can take it as an implication that she did all those things, while I will take it as Bella saying that now those things will actually get done, not that she did them.

"Novels don't usually spell everything out for the reader. It takes too long. "

you just described Meyer's writing style. Meyer always spells things out for her readers, like they're too simple-minded to come to the conclusion without her help. She's always telling us things, but never actually showing us.

"Here's a quote from page 27 about Bella looking around Charlie's kitchen. "I also found out that he had no food in the house. So I had my shopping list and the cash from the jar in the cupboard that labeled FOOD MONEY, and I was on my way to Thriftway."
So Charlie has no food in the house. That's not really something you'd expect from someone accustomed to eating a reasonably healthy diet, especially when Charlie has known for some time that his daughter was coming to live with him. It's not like she turned up unannounced. Why wouldn't he stock up before she arrived? That would be sensible. Probably because it didn't even occur to him to do that."

It is possible that because of his job he doesn't have time to go buy food for a reasonably healthy diet. Sheriffs are normally not at home 100% of the time, so why let good food go to waste because they don't have the time to cook and eat it because they're always on the go? On top of that, this is his daughter that he hasn't seen for several years. She's a whole new person, a stranger. Why go out and buy food only to find out that she doesn't like it or she's allergic to whatever he bought?

" Heartbeats probably stand out to vampires most, because it's associated with blood, but it doesn't say they hear everything else that's happening in human's bodies (which can certainly be quite noisy!) so it may just be heartbeats that they hear because of their diet. It is not impossible to think that there may be ways they can modulate their voices so other vampires couldn't hear them. In fact, they have probably needed to find ways to do this (as we all do) to keep certain secrets. "

with this, it really sounds like yo're fishing for a plausible explanation to make it sound right to you. I'm just going to say that we have to agree to disagree because this one is too silly to try to make a rebuttal on. They can hear heartbeats especially because of their diets, really?

"She is willing to do it though. That's what's strong about it. She goes willingly with every intention of giving up her life for her mother. Are you saying that just because it didn't happen that way, it means that it's not a real sacrifice on her part? Every step she made towards James was a sacrifice. The sacrifice of her life for her mother's. Just because she was tricked by James does not lessen the nobility of her willingness to give up her life."

If she's willing to do it but never actually has to lose anything, that doesn't make her strong. And yes I am. If she never has to sacrifice anything, she can never be seen as strong. If a character never has to make any tough decisions and sacrifices then she is the same Bella from the start of the book when the series ended in the last book. What you see as nobility, I see as stupidity. Every decision she makes is stupid and in the end she gets rewarded for them.

"Yes, but Bella doesn't know that, does she? I find it strange that you'd think that Bella shouldn't have been afraid just because the author wasn't able to kill anyone off. "

Yes, because that's what Meyer did. She gave Bella information about the situation that Bella shouldn't know, like she would give Bella information on how a person felt, or what they were thinking.

And that isn't my thinking. Not at all.

"Yes she did. She got up every day, went to school and tried to be normal. It didn't work at that stage, but she tried. "

Her effort is given to us in the way of four simple words on multiple pages. It is shown that she lived those four months in a void, blocking out the world. Meyer didn't show that Bella tried to persevere through her depression because Edward left her. She showed at in the face of hardships Bella shut down. It would've been amazing if Meyer showed Bella going through those four months, but no, she didn't. Instead we got to see the tail-end of her depression where she put her life in danger to see Edward via hallucinations.


"He realised that she was just trying, but she DID make an effort. Bella herself refers to this when she overhears Charlie's conversation with Alice. Bella says, 'I hadn't fooled him at all, not for one second'. This is after Charlie has pointed out to Alice that she went to school and ate and slept and did her homework."

Charlie sees that Bella isn't handling the break up. She's not doing anything that normal Bella did. He sees that what's sitting in front of him is just a shadow of his daughter and he has no clue how to reach out and help her. He sees what I'm saying which is that for those four months, Bella was lifeless. As she pointed out as well, she became lifeless because life held no meaning to her without Edward.

"As Edward points out when he returns (and he's probably seen this in Charlie's mind), 'You got up in the morning, tried to be normal for Charlie, followed the pattern of your life'. So she did make an effort, and that was before Charlie threatened to send her to Phoenix to live with her mother. Just after that happened, Bella arranged to go out with Jessica, which is just before she starts going to Jacob on a regular basis. So she was trying before that. She just wasn't fooling anyone. But she did make an effort."

This all summed up to Bella going through the motions of a normal daily life. It doesn't equal actually living your life. She was pretending that she was alright, faking at making an effort, not that she actually wanted to make an effort to move on, get over Edward and become better. That was only till Charlie threatened her. She didn't care at all till she lived like she was going to die just so she could see wisps of Edward and hear him. Going through the motions of an actual normal life because you're depressed is not the same as actually living. She was deep in a chronic depression that she couldn't get over. "Getting up in the morning and being normal" is not living, that's pretending like you don't have a problem so no one will approach you about it.

"She was definitely physically weak when she was human, but she is weak in no way when she is a vampire. "

that's the whole point of what I said and my point on it remains the same. If she's weak as a human but has to become a vampire to be both mentally and physically strong then she was never strong at all.

[Iris]

Every character is both strong and weak. They are never just one because it's unrealistic and boring. So she does have aspects of strength in her but on the flip side she is also weak. She is strong in her determination and capriciousness and her love for her family and what not, but her weakness stems from her stupidity. She allows herself to be drawn into a world that most would call unhealthy and evil. She becomes obsessed with the boy she loves and doesn't want a life outside of him. She doesn't think through any of her actions, as is depicted in the sequel. So that's what she is made up of, I think. She is strong but in all the wrong ways.

[Delia]

Jordan wrote: "I have been in so many of these discussions, and obviously there are always haters. But a huge reasoning for why they hate the book is because Bella is a weak, single minded character. I did not ge..."

Hi Jordan, I LOVED the character of Bella. She had a strong sense of self--and because of that she wasn't willing to do anything to be with Edward. She wanted to go to school and insisted on working and driving her own truck.

I know that Bella's character was based on Jane Eyre.

But it brings up a great question: how do you identify a strong character?

[[deleted user]]

Delia wrote: "Jordan wrote: "I have been in so many of these discussions, and obviously there are always haters. But a huge reasoning for why they hate the book is because Bella is a weak, single minded characte..."
Wait, WHAT? Bella was based on Jane Eyre? Seriously?

[Melanie]

Maggie wrote: "If Bella was based on Jane eyre it is a massive insult to Charlotte bronte."
agreed

[Lynne]

Twilight wasn't based on Jane Eyre, but some similarities have been drawn between the two. Stephenie Meyer said not long ago that she can see that books like Jane Eyre and Pride and Prejudice may have influenced some elements of it, but that is all.

[Lynne]

Jesse wrote: "But it isn't. There's a lot more that goes into being considered as a great writer than the reaction of fans, like the writing of the author, which is what really counts. And that is where she strikes out."

I disagree, especially considering that Twilight was the first manuscript she ever wrote. I know that most authors put their first manuscript in the bin, because that's where it belongs. I'm sure you'd think the same about Twilight. However, considering how diverse its fan base is, she has done something right in that this book has touched so many people from so many different walks of life. Is her writing perfect? No way, and I wouldn't expect that from a debut author anyway. One of the most important things in writing is experience. But she clearly has the ability to connect with an audience, and that is not something every writer has, no matter how technically brilliant their writing is. And the ability to connect is just as important, if not more important, that technical brilliance.

Yes, because when my mother asks me where her things are, it's a total sign that she can't do things for her own self because of x,y, and z reasons and not simply because she wants help looking for it. Look, for this one it's really speculation and it just sounds really trivial, like it wasn't as big as you're making it out to be. I don't remember it, you didn't say the book so that I may see it in context, it would really help if you said where it was from so that I may see it as well.

Certainly. On page 4 of Twilight it reads: 'How could I leave my loving, erratic, harebrained mother to fend for herself? Of course she had Phil now, so the bills would probably get paid, and there would be food in the refrigerator, gas in her car, and someone to call when she got lost, but still ...'
Then on page 28, in the first email from her mother, 'I'm almost finished packing for Florida, but I can't find my pink blouse. Do you know where I put it?'
In my mind, this paints more than just a woman who's momentarily misplaced something. It's clear Bella has been helping her with most things for quite a while now. Also, it's a little demonstrative of Renee's harebrained nature that she's asking her daughter for help in finding her blouse when her daughter is miles away.

I'm not saying it's improbable, I'm just saying that I don't see it as Bella implying that she did all that she listed. You can take it as an implication that she did all those things, while I will take it as Bella saying that now those things will actually get done, not that she did them.

I disagree. I think the quote above demonstrates that someone other than Renee has always been doing these things. Bella's thinking suggests that the only reason she thinks they will get done now is because her mother has married Phil, so he will do them. Since there was only Bella and her mother living together prior to this, it's logical to assume that Bella was doing all these things for her mother. That's how she knows her mother needs help getting them done.

you just described Meyer's writing style. Meyer always spells things out for her readers, like they're too simple-minded to come to the conclusion without her help. She's always telling us things, but never actually showing us.

I'm not sure we'd be having this debate if that was the case. I've also visited enough Twilight sites and had various debates there to know that there is quite a bit in the books that is open to speculation. Boy, some of the debates that go on, even amongst fans of the books! :-)

It is possible that because of his job he doesn't have time to go buy food for a reasonably healthy diet. Sheriffs are normally not at home 100% of the time, so why let good food go to waste because they don't have the time to cook and eat it because they're always on the go? On top of that, this is his daughter that he hasn't seen for several years. She's a whole new person, a stranger. Why go out and buy food only to find out that she doesn't like it or she's allergic to whatever he bought?

It's not like he's had nothing to do with his daughter all these years. The books states that Bella has spent a few weeks with Charlie every year. Here's the quote in case you want it: 'It was in this town that I'd been compelled to spend a month every summer until I was fourteen. That was the year I finally put my foot down; these past three summers my dad, Charlie, vacationed with me in California for two weeks instead.' So Charlie should be familiar with any allergies or food dislikes that his daughter has. And while it's possible that his job makes it difficult to find the time to shop, again, knowing his daughter was coming, you'd have thought he'd make the effort. And the quote doesn't just say the fridge is empty, it says no food in the house, which implies the pantry is empty too. That's unlikely if he just hasn't found the time to shop in the past few days.

with this, it really sounds like yo're fishing for a plausible explanation to make it sound right to you. I'm just going to say that we have to agree to disagree because this one is too silly to try to make a rebuttal on. They can hear heartbeats especially because of their diets, really?

Yes, we'll agree to disagree. I do think there's every reason to believe that vampires have learned how to keep their voices from other vampires. It seems like a necessity to me. And it seems silly to waste time on this subject when it has nothing to do with whether Bella was strong or not.

If she's willing to do it but never actually has to lose anything, that doesn't make her strong. And yes I am. If she never has to sacrifice anything, she can never be seen as strong. If a character never has to make any tough decisions and sacrifices then she is the same Bella from the start of the book when the series ended in the last book. What you see as nobility, I see as stupidity. Every decision she makes is stupid and in the end she gets rewarded for them.

Well, I guess we'll agree to disagree on that one, too. In my mind, being willing and ready to make that sacrifice is what counts, especially since following that call nearly kills her. And Bella frequently has tough decisions to make during the books. This is one of them. Choosing to save Edward from the Volturi, which will likely cost her her life, is another. Choosing to fight for her baby's life is another. I guess these, as with any choices, can be viewed as stupid, depending on who is assessing them. Personally, I find them noble and strong, even the ones I disagree with. Whether or not I think they're sensible courses of action doesn't lessen my understanding of how difficult they must be to make.

Yes, because that's what Meyer did. She gave Bella information about the situation that Bella shouldn't know, like she would give Bella information on how a person felt, or what they were thinking.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that score as well.

Her effort is given to us in the way of four simple words on multiple pages. It is shown that she lived those four months in a void, blocking out the world. Meyer didn't show that Bella tried to persevere through her depression because Edward left her. She showed at in the face of hardships Bella shut down. It would've been amazing if Meyer showed Bella going through those four months, but no, she didn't. Instead we got to see the tail-end of her depression where she put her life in danger to see Edward via hallucinations.

The real reason she didn't cover those months was probably because so little happened story-wise. But we know from the quotes that I put earlier that she clearly did something during that timeframe. Now granted, it was all done in a robotic state, but she still made an effort, even though it didn't do much good.

Charlie sees that Bella isn't handling the break up. She's not doing anything that normal Bella did. He sees that what's sitting in front of him is just a shadow of his daughter and he has no clue how to reach out and help her. He sees what I'm saying which is that for those four months, Bella was lifeless. As she pointed out as well, she became lifeless because life held no meaning to her without Edward.

Yes, but she was making an effort, for the sake of her father. She could have stayed in her bed all day every day, in her comatose state, but she got up and at least tried to go through the motions of her life.

This all summed up to Bella going through the motions of a normal daily life. It doesn't equal actually living your life.

I did not say that she was living her life. I said she is living a semblance of her life in a robotic state. While it wasn't enough to fool Charlie, it still was an effort she put in.

She was pretending that she was alright,

That is exactly right.

faking at making an effort,

There was nothing fake about the effort it took to do all that. It was a very real attempt. As it says on page 95, 'I'd thought I'd been fooling him. Keeping Charlie from suffering was the whole point of all this effort.'

not that she actually wanted to make an effort to move on, get over Edward and become better. That was only till Charlie threatened her. She didn't care at all till she lived like she was going to die just so she could see wisps of Edward and hear him. Going through the motions of an actual normal life because you're depressed is not the same as actually living. She was deep in a chronic depression that she couldn't get over. "Getting up in the morning and being normal" is not living, that's pretending like you don't have a problem so no one will approach you about it.

No, it wasn't living, but as the quote above demonstrates, she didn't do it so no one would approach her. She did it to try and help Charlie. So it was done with him in mind, and it took effort to do, however ineffectual it turned out to be.

that's the whole point of what I said and my point on it remains the same. If she's weak as a human but has to become a vampire to be both mentally and physically strong then she was never strong at all.

I said that she was physically weak as a human, not that she was mentally or emotionally weak. She was always strong minded. It took vampirism to give her physical strength and greater mental powers that managed to harness a strength in her mind that had already been strong enough to keep out strong vampires, even when she was human.

[Jessica]

Lynne wrote: "I disagree, especially considering that Twilight was the first manuscript she ever wrote. I know that most authors put their first manuscript in the bin, because that's where it belongs."

You shouldn't be so sure about what I think because what I think would surprise you greatly.

"I disagree."

Then we'll have to agree to disagree. It's way too late here for me to want to be splitting hairs on this one.

"It's not like he's had nothing to do with his daughter all these years. The books states that Bella has spent a few weeks with Charlie every year. Here's the quote in case you want it: 'It was in this town that I'd been compelled to spend a month every summer until I was fourteen. That was the year I finally put my foot down; these past three summers my dad, Charlie, vacationed with me in California for two weeks instead.' So Charlie should be familiar with any allergies or food dislikes that his daughter has. And while it's possible that his job makes it difficult to find the time to shop, again, knowing his daughter was coming, you'd have thought he'd make the effort. And the quote doesn't just say the fridge is empty, it says no food in the house, which implies the pantry is empty too. That's unlikely if he just hasn't found the time to shop in the past few days. "

It's plausible that because of his job he never has to stop in the house and fill it with food since he's a single man taking care of just one person.

"Yes, but she was making an effort, for the sake of her father. She could have stayed in her bed all day every day, in her comatose state, but she got up and at least tried to go through the motions of her life"

what little effort she made could very well have been what she wrote instead of giving us four words. Meyer clearly isn't as skilled in writing as some would believe if she cannot write about someone with depression over a break up. the list of authors who can handle this topic beautifully without making it seem like a dragged on topic could go on into forever. But it seems that Meyer choose the easy way out.

Bella would've made a better effort if she actually wanted help instead of blocking people out, if she actually tried to get over Edward instead of being Shakespearean levels of overly dramatic by saying her life was over.

"There was nothing fake about the effort it took to do all that. It was a very real attempt. As it says on page 95, 'I'd thought I'd been fooling him. Keeping Charlie from suffering was the whole point of all this effort.'"

If she actually wanted to put effort into it she would've done more than live life lifeless like, like that now that Edward was gone that her life was over, as she said. She would've seen that it was hurting more than just her and would've one more to make sure that no one was suffering.

"No, it wasn't living, but as the quote above demonstrates, she didn't do it so no one would approach her. She did it to try and help Charlie. So it was done with him in mind, and it took effort to do, however ineffectual it turned out to be."

She faked the funk so Charlie wouldn't approach her about the topic, which she clearly failed at.

"I said that she was physically weak as a human, not that she was mentally or emotionally weak. She was always strong minded. It took vampirism to give her physical strength and greater mental powers that managed to harness a strength in her mind that had already been strong enough to keep out strong vampires, even when she was human. "

Not even before Edward was she mentally strong. She already showed signs of being anti social, beyond low self esteem, symptoms of depression, and a over all frail state of mind. then she was consumed by Edward and it all became so much worse. I didn't think her self esteem and view of herself could've gotten any lower, but then she dated Edward and she found a new rock bottom. She wasn't strong willed at all, no mental strength to be found in her.

[Lynne]

Jesse wrote: "It's plausible that because of his job he never has to stop in the house and fill it with food since he's a single man taking care of just one person. "

But again, he's known for some time that his daughter is coming to live with him. Why not stock up the house with food? Probably because eating regularly or well is not something he's great at.

what little effort she made could very well have been what she wrote instead of giving us four words. Meyer clearly isn't as skilled in writing as some would believe if she cannot write about someone with depression over a break up. the list of authors who can handle this topic beautifully without making it seem like a dragged on topic could go on into forever. But it seems that Meyer choose the easy way out.

She does include it. She includes it in the quotes that I've already provided. Modern writers know that they are expected to weave these thing into scenes that keep the pace up in the story. It may be (and I don't know if this is so or not) that she had originally written something, but the editors felt that it slowed the pace so it was decided to cut it. Anything that slows the pace is taken out. If I had been her editor, I would have advised her not to include much (if anything) of that time, because it had nothing to do with the overall story.

Bella would've made a better effort if she actually wanted help instead of blocking people out, if she actually tried to get over Edward instead of being Shakespearean levels of overly dramatic by saying her life was over.

But that's the way a lot of teenage girls view it when their relationships break up, and this was a little more than a human level love story. The emotions evoked were always intended to be viewed at an ultimate level, which is why an ultimate response resulted.

If she actually wanted to put effort into it she would've done more than live life lifeless like, like that now that Edward was gone that her life was over, as she said. She would've seen that it was hurting more than just her and would've one more to make sure that no one was suffering.

She did see that she was hurting more than just herself. The quote I provided earlier indicates clearly that she was going to an effort to make sure Charlie didn't suffer. She was not blind to the pain she was causing him, but she couldn't do well enough to prevent him suffering. That fact, however, doesn't mean that she didn't make the effort in the first place, even though she ultimately failed.

She faked the funk so Charlie wouldn't approach her about the topic, which she clearly failed at.

About what topic? Edward? I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

Not even before Edward was she mentally strong. She already showed signs of being anti social, beyond low self esteem, symptoms of depression, and a over all frail state of mind. then she was consumed by Edward and it all became so much worse. I didn't think her self esteem and view of herself could've gotten any lower, but then she dated Edward and she found a new rock bottom. She wasn't strong willed at all, no mental strength to be found in her,

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that one, too. While I certainly agree that Bella had low self esteem, she doesn't seem to be depressed prior to Edward leaving, and I don't think low self esteem is the same as being weak. It's certainly not the same as not being strong willed. I know numerous people with strong wills who also have low self esteem (myself being one of them). While low self esteem may indicate weakness in some areas (such as anything to do with Bella herself), Bella's strength was usually found in the things she did for others. Just because she wasn't strong in things regarding herself, does not mean that she didn't have strength. Her strength was seen in her selflessness.

[Jessica]

Lynne wrote: "She does include it. She includes it in the quotes that I've already provided. Modern writers know that they are expected to weave these thing into scenes that keep the pace up in the story. It may be (and I don't know if this is so or not) that she had originally written something, but the editors felt that it slowed the pace so it was decided to cut it. Anything that slows the pace is taken out. If I had been her editor, I would have advised her not to include much (if anything) of that time, because it had nothing to do with the overall story."

Through Bella's pov would've been optimal since she made her be overcome with depression. Showing us how depressed and lifeless she was by giving us four words and jumping four months is not showing us anything other than how lazy of a writer she is. Cutting it down to the end of her depression and then making it go away because of Edward does not cut it for me.

But you are right here up to a point. The major reason I hated New Moon was because Bella was a whiny bitch who everyone was enabling instead of helping and in the end she gets a reward for her behavior.

"But that's the way a lot of teenage girls view it when their relationships break up, and this was a little more than a human level love story. The emotions evoked were always intended to be viewed at an ultimate level, which is why an ultimate response resulted. "

But Bella is supposed to be a old soul, a 30 year old within a 17 year old, able to handle that which adults do and with more ease. She can't have it both ways. Either she's like other teenage girls or she's the old soul, more matured teenager that Meyer tried to write her as. And old soul mature teenagers don't become overly dramatic by saying their life is over and then proving it by acting like a lifeless, soulless robot.

" She did see that she was hurting more than just herself. The quote I provided earlier indicates clearly that she was going to an effort to make sure Charlie didn't suffer. She was not blind to the pain she was causing him, but she couldn't do well enough to prevent him suffering. That fact, however, doesn't mean that she didn't make the effort in the first place, even though she ultimately failed."

But she did not. She thought she had Charlie fooled, bully what her peers thought of her, what mattered most was Charlie but he didn't believe her. Up till then it was all about her, only her suffering mattered, her hurt was the more important one, that's why she ran off with no notice to Italy for three days, leaving her grieving father to wonder where his daughter was, again. That's why when Charlie tried to tell her to leave Edward be, when he was suffering the most because his daughter was suffering and he was only trying to help, she threw it back in his face by giving him an ultimatum, like she was the adult in the situation.

" Bella's strength was usually found in the things she did for others. Just because she wasn't strong in things regarding herself, does not mean that she didn't have strength. Her strength was seen in her selflessness. "

Yes, I do see we have to do so. To me Bella was the most selfish in the story, right next to Edward and thus, they deserved each other. She cared not for her friends, her parents, or the surrounding lives of the people of Forks, all she cared for was herself and Edward.

[Heidi]

Jesse wrote: "Yes, I do see we have to do so. To me Bella was the most selfish in the story, right next to Edward and thus, they deserved each other. She cared not for her friends, her parents, or the surrounding lives of the people of Forks, all she cared for was herself and Edward.
"

If she didn't care about her dad, why did she bother worrying about him in the first book when she thought James was going to kill him? Why did she bother meeting James if she didn't care about her mom?

Jesse wrote: "But you are right here up to a point. The major reason I hated New Moon was because Bella was a whiny bitch who everyone was enabling instead of helping and in the end she gets a reward for her behavior.

I always think this is interesting. In order to be a whiny bitch, you would have to whine, correct? Who did Bella whine to?

[Jessica]

Heidi wrote: "If she didn't care about her dad, why did she bother worrying about him in the first book when she thought James was going to kill him? Why did she bother meeting James if she didn't care about her mom?"

If she cared about her parents she wouldn't have rushed off to be with Edward, she wouldn't have made the ultimatum to her father who up til that point saw nothing good in Edward because he was only hurting her. Saying that she didn't care about them at all would be an over exaggeration, but the blatant disregard of their parental authority showed she could've care more for them.

"I always think this is interesting. In order to be a whiny bitch, you would have to whine, correct? Who did Bella whine to?"

She was whining. About ever little thing and how her life was so hard and meaningless because Edward wasn't there.

[Heidi]

Jesse wrote: "If she cared about her parents she wouldn't have rushed off to be with Edward, she wouldn't have made the ultimatum to her father who up til that point saw nothing good in Edward because he was only hurting her. Saying that she didn't care about them at all would be an over exaggeration, but the blatant disregard of their parental authority showed she could've care more for them."

Children disregard parental authority all the time. As an adult, I disregard my parents politics. Sometimes people do things not to challenge their parents, but because they think its the right thing. There was no malice towards her parents in what decisions Bella made when she decided to find Edward.


Jesse wrote: "She was whining. About ever little thing and how her life was so hard and meaningless because Edward wasn't there."

Ok. Who did she whine to?

[Lynne]

Jesse wrote: "Through Bella's pov would've been optimal since she made her be overcome with depression. Showing us how depressed and lifeless she was by giving us four words and jumping four months is not showing us anything other than how lazy of a writer she is. Cutting it down to the end of her depression and then making it go away because of Edward does not cut it for me.

But you are right here up to a point. The major reason I hated New Moon was because Bella was a whiny bitch who everyone was enabling instead of helping and in the end she gets a reward for her behavior."

I disagree. Any good editor would have made a point of keeping that four month section to a minimum, as it does not move the story along. It's a sign of good writing (in the modern style, anyway), not laziness.

I agree with Heidi. At no point does Bella whine. In fact, she keeps her pain to herself as much as possible.

But Bella is supposed to be a old soul, a 30 year old within a 17 year old, able to handle that which adults do and with more ease. She can't have it both ways. Either she's like other teenage girls or she's the old soul, more matured teenager that Meyer tried to write her as. And old soul mature teenagers don't become overly dramatic by saying their life is over and then proving it by acting like a lifeless, soulless robot.

As I mentioned in the previous comment, this is the ultimate relationship, so it is taken to the extremes. Not to mention that it's unreasonable to assume that just because someone is mature for their age that they still don't act their age at some point. That is to be expected, especially in matters of the heart, which she has never experienced before.

But she did not. She thought she had Charlie fooled, bully what her peers thought of her, what mattered most was Charlie but he didn't believe her. Up till then it was all about her, only her suffering mattered, her hurt was the more important one, that's why she ran off with no notice to Italy for three days, leaving her grieving father to wonder where his daughter was, again. That's why when Charlie tried to tell her to leave Edward be, when he was suffering the most because his daughter was suffering and he was only trying to help, she threw it back in his face by giving him an ultimatum, like she was the adult in the situation.

It was not all about her. Her efforts to try and get on with her life were for Charlie's sake. As I pointed out in the quote I provided in my previous post, if it had been up to her she wouldn't have made such an effort.

And going to Italy was never about her either. It was about saving Edward's life. She couldn't stand by and let him kill himself, especially since she felt that her behaviour (in jumping off the cliff) was the cause of it. She had to try and help him.

Giving Charlie an ultimatum was probably driven by the fact that she knew Edward should be in her life and felt that Charlie would need to be forced to allow it. Besides, providing him with that ultimatum has nothing to do with whether Bella is strong or not, which is what we are discussing. If anything, it shows strength of will (whether she was right or wrong to do it) in insisting that Edward must have a place in her life and standing up to her father to gain it. Now, if you're going to present a case for Bella behaving badly at certain points in the story, I'll agree with you wholeheartedly. She does on numerous occasions, mainly because she is a realistic character, so she isn't going to behave perfectly all the time.

Yes, I do see we have to do so. To me Bella was the most selfish in the story, right next to Edward and thus, they deserved each other. She cared not for her friends, her parents, or the surrounding lives of the people of Forks, all she cared for was herself and Edward.

I disagree. One of the most distinct traits about Bella is how much she does care about other people. It's featured in each of the books. It seems easy for me to see. I never understand why others don't see it, but then, we all see things differently.

[Lynne]

That's very true, Olivia. I'm not suggesting that Bella is consistently strong at every single point. I don't think any of us are. But she is strong often enough for me to believe that she is a strong person overall.

[Saxonjus]

I felt Bella was selfish.She wanted everything right away.Yes she proved strength in battle & mind however was this not her gift " Her ability to shield & Block?" I felt she was weak as a human & weaker as a human in love.She used love as a weapon against Jacob & Edward. I really thought Bella a shallow character.She could have lived longer as a human matured & then changed.Or should she have changed?

[Marilyn]

Heidi wrote: "Ok. Who did she whine to?"

I take it that the readers don't count anymore?

[Heidi]

Marilyn wrote: "Heidi wrote: "Ok. Who did she whine to?"

I take it that the readers don't count anymore?"

Not as a person that she speaks to, no. When you think bad things, does that make you a bad person? When you think good things does that make you a good person? What you're thinking about me now, does that make you judgemental? Thoughts are just that, thoughts. They are the unedited version of anyone, with all flaws and imperfections. Is it what we choose what not to say or do that makes us? Who knows? I know that in order to be called whiny, or a cry baby, or a good person, or a bad person, or any judgements at all - you have to do them and act on them in real life, for people to make those judgments on you.

[Jessica]

Heidi wrote: "Children disregard parental authority all the time. As an adult, I disregard my parents politics. Sometimes people do things not to challenge their parents, but because they think its the right thing. There was no malice towards her parents in what decisions Bella made when she decided to find Edward.

There was no malice, but there's blatant disregard of her father when Edward is involved. Immediately Edward is the most important one, as she showed in I do believe it was Eclipse when she thought that her father should be nice to Edward who didn't deserve kindness from Charlie.

And yes, as Marilyn said, because this is her POV she is whining to the readers the most. Do we not count?

[Heidi]

Jesse wrote: "There was no malice, but there's blatant disregard of her father when Edward is involved. Immediately Edward is the most important one, as she showed in I do believe it was Eclipse when she thought that her father should be nice to Edward who didn't deserve kindness from Charlie. "


Yeah, if my dad told me I couldn't go somewhere, and my friends life depended on it, I would totally blatantly disregard what he said. And screw the consequences.

Jesse: And yes, as Marilyn said, because this is her POV she is whining to the readers the most. Do we not count?

If Bella was whining to readers most, what OTHER characters did she whine to? I don't recall any of Bellas thoughts along the lines of "dear readers , whoa ez me". It's all about perception when you say she whines. You perceive that she whines, even though she doesn't ever do it to anyone (this is based on opinion). If its all relative, then I do not perceive that she does whine, because she never does to anyone (based on facts).

[Maxine]

Wow people are really into arguing this. To me it comes down to one fact, could Bella live without Edward. And she's proven she can't live without him. Hell the only reason she did manage to live when he was gone was because she deliberately put herself in such danger so she could see him! That isn't a strong character to me at all.

[Jessica]

Lynne wrote: "I agree with Heidi. At no point does Bella whine. In fact, she keeps her pain to herself as much as possible. "

It is not that she is complaining to others that is the problem. It is that she is complaining to us as readers and we the readers have to read page after page as she goes on and on about how awful everything is when really it isn't and if it is then it's her own fault.

"It was not all about her. Her efforts to try and get on with her life were for Charlie's sake. As I pointed out in the quote I provided in my previous post, if it had been up to her she wouldn't have made such an effort."

But it is all about her. The very story is all about her. We never hear about anything else that doesn't involve her. We don't hear of anyone else's grief or suffering except her own.

I do suppose that I'd have to go to what I said as well, that if she really wanted to do something for Charlie's sake then she would take his advice and go to her mother since she doesn't want help from Charlie. The best thing she could've done for his sake was get better and get over Edward but she wouldn't do it for him.

"And going to Italy was never about her either. It was about saving Edward's life. She couldn't stand by and let him kill himself, especially since she felt that her behaviour (in jumping off the cliff) was the cause of it. She had to try and help him."

But it clearly wasn't her fault. It was Jacob's and Rosalie's fault because they played it out on purpose to be like it was Bella that died and not Harry. Bella didn't have to do anything, she wasn't obligated to help his overly dramatic self. When it involves Edward, it's always about Bella because she can't leave him alone and have a non toxic life without him.


"Giving Charlie an ultimatum was probably driven by the fact that she knew Edward should be in her life and felt that Charlie would need to be forced to allow it."

Charlie doesn't need to be forced to do anything, as he is the adult in the situation. Edward is clearly hurting his daughter more than making her happy, why should he get an ultimatum when he's only trying to help her get out of a bad relationship?

"Besides, providing him with that ultimatum has nothing to do with whether Bella is strong or not," Never said it did.

" which is what we are discussing. If anything, it shows strength of will (whether she was right or wrong to do it) in insisting that Edward must have a place in her life and standing up to her father to gain it."

And in Charlie's eyes Edward not only doesn't deserve a place in her life but shouldn't be there entirely because he's hurting her on multiple occasions. To him Edward is the abuser he's trying to save his daughter from. It's not about strength or will, it's about trying to save his daughter from a early grave. Which in the end he sadly failed to do.

"Now, if you're going to present a case for Bella behaving badly at certain points in the story, I'll agree with you wholeheartedly. She does on numerous occasions, mainly because she is a realistic character, so she isn't going to behave perfectly all the time. "

It's not about behaving perfectly more so as it is about behaving humanly. She doesn't react like she's human to any of the situations she's in. that doesn't make her brave, that doesn't make her stupid, it makes her inhuman.

[Jessica]

Heidi wrote: "Yeah, if my dad told me I couldn't go somewhere, and my friends life depended on it, I would totally blatantly disregard what he said. And screw the consequences. "

It's not about if Edward's life depended on it, Charlie wasn't there in New Moon to tell her not to go. She never took in his advice about Edward because Edward was an Adonis, a God who couldn't do no wrong.

"
If Bella was whining to readers most, what OTHER characters did she whine to? I don't recall any of Bellas thoughts along the lines of "dear readers , whoa ez me". It's all about perception when you say she whines. You perceive that she whines, even though she doesn't ever do it to anyone (this is based on opinion). If its all relative, then I do not perceive that she does whine, because she never does to anyone (based on facts). "

She complained and whined to herself, and we as readers got to see it. It's also apart of Bella's abnormally love self-esteem. Every little thing it always goes back o how she can't compare, and so she complains about it even though she's the only one who sees something wrong when there isn't anything wrong.

[Marilyn]

Heidi wrote: "Jesse: And yes, as Marilyn said, because this is her POV she is whining to the readers the most. Do we not count?

If Bella was whining to readers most, what OTHER characters did she whine to? I don't recall any of Bellas thoughts along the lines of "dear readers , whoa ez me". It's all about perception when you say she whines. You perceive that she whines, even though she doesn't ever do it to anyone (this is based on opinion). If its all relative, then I do not perceive that she does whine, because she never does to anyone (based on facts). "

To each their own, I suppose. Just saying that since she's shared her inner most thoughts to us, as the readers, it's fair judgement.

[Lynne]

Jesse wrote: "It is not that she is complaining to others that is the problem. It is that she is complaining to us as readers and we the readers have to read page after page as she goes on and on about how awful everything is when really it isn't and if it is then it's her own fault. "

I think we'll agree to disagree again, then. It's difficult for me to accuse someone of being whiney when I only experience it because I'm eavesdropping on their thought process. Even then, the level of whining doesn't seem particularly high, given the things she is going through most of the time, which are bound to cause stress. I think I'd be going 'woe is me' a bit in my head if I was involved in a supernatural world that tended to be overwhelming.

But it is all about her. The very story is all about her. We never hear about anything else that doesn't involve her. We don't hear of anyone else's grief or suffering except her own.

Yes, that's because it's a novel written in first person, and in New Moon particularly, she is the one who is chiefly suffering, so that's what we experience most, since we are inside her head. It would have been a bad idea for SM to put in pages about Charlie's suffering, because it would have slowed the pace down and would have most likely taken us out of point of view. It was clever of SM to put it in the conversation Charlie had with Alice, which kept the pace steady and kept point of view sound.

I do suppose that I'd have to go to what I said as well, that if she really wanted to do something for Charlie's sake then she would take his advice and go to her mother since she doesn't want help from Charlie. The best thing she could've done for his sake was get better and get over Edward but she wouldn't do it for him.

That's because she couldn't, but it didn't mean she didn't make the effort to keep going, for her father's sake. A weak person wouldn't even make the effort. And how would going to Renee have made it any better? That would have just been like Charlie was putting the problem on his ex-wife's shoulders because he didn't want to deal with it anymore.

But it clearly wasn't her fault. It was Jacob's and Rosalie's fault because they played it out on purpose to be like it was Bella that died and not Harry. Bella didn't have to do anything, she wasn't obligated to help his overly dramatic self. When it involves Edward, it's always about Bella because she can't leave him alone and have a non toxic life without him.


So are you suggesting that an individual should not bother to save someone from certain death unless they are responsible for putting them in that position? It makes no difference who is responsible for Edward taking that action. Bella knew that Edward was killing himself because he thought she was dead. Only the sight of Bella would have convinced him otherwise. Even if he'd heard the evidence in Alice's head, he would have thought she was trying to lie to him through her thoughts. Bella had to go, as Edward would only stop if he saw with his own eyes that she was still alive.

Charlie doesn't need to be forced to do anything, as he is the adult in the situation. Edward is clearly hurting his daughter more than making her happy, why should he get an ultimatum when he's only trying to help her get out of a bad relationship?

Charlie sees it as a bad relationship because he doesn't have all the facts about the relationship. Bella says to herself early in Eclipse that she wonders if Charlie would take Jake's side as much as he does if he realised the choice was between vampires and werewolves! :-) Bella knows that her father means well, but she also believes that Edward is back and that he left for her benefit (as ill judged an action as it was), rather than because he didn't care about her. So she is being strong because, although she knows Charlie means well, she also knows that he can't know all the details, and is therefore wrong in his assessment.

Never said it did.

Then why raise the point? We are discussing whether Bella is strong or not.

And in Charlie's eyes Edward not only doesn't deserve a place in her life but shouldn't be there entirely because he's hurting her on multiple occasions. To him Edward is the abuser he's trying to save his daughter from. It's not about strength or will, it's about trying to save his daughter from a early grave. Which in the end he sadly failed to do.

Yes, as I said earlier, that's because he didn't know all the details. And whatever Charlie's viewpoint, it's clear, by the latter chapters in Breaking Dawn, that Bella is happier than she ever had been before. I think that would make Charlie happy, once he saw how it worked out. After all, he loved his daughter and did what he did because he wanted her to be happy, so I think he would have come around, where Edward was concerned, in the end, especially after he saw Jake phase! :-)

It's not about behaving perfectly more so as it is about behaving humanly. She doesn't react like she's human to any of the situations she's in. that doesn't make her brave, that doesn't make her stupid, it makes her inhuman.

Her reactions are certainly strong, but that might be what indicates that she was born for the supernatural world. However, just because her reactions are stronger than normal, doesn't mean that she is not brave. There is clearly bravery in her actions, especially since she did most things while she was still a physically weak human.

[Maxine]

Told my friend about this group. She cried and the laughed...

[Daliah]

Charlotte wrote: "Bella is an idiot. However, she is brave. I'll give her that.
She centers her entire life, like a satellite (even the author uses this word), around a boy she's known for a few months tops. And she..."

I think irrational is more like it. She'd jump into danger for the same boy she is orbiting. She won't do anything for herself and it's utterly frustrating.

[Jay]

Bella is awesome

[Jessica]

Lynne wrote: "That's because she couldn't, but it didn't mean she didn't make the effort to keep going, for her father's sake. A weak person wouldn't even make the effort. And how would going to Renee have made it any better? That would have just been like Charlie was putting the problem on his ex-wife's shoulders because he didn't want to deal with it anymore."

It would've been better because Charlie was sending Bella away from the problem's source, not taking it of his hands and plopping it into Renee's. He clearly can't do anything else to help her and he knows that Bella only liked Forks because the Cullens were there, ergo sending her off to her mother would've been better not only to take Bella out of the problematic setting, but she would also be in the hands of someone who can reach her on an emotional level, something Charlie clearly can't do. It's not him not wanting to deal with it, it's him unable to. He clearly wants to help Bella, so saying that he doesn't want to is unfair.

"Charlie sees it as a bad relationship because he doesn't have all the facts about the relationship. Bella says to herself early in Eclipse that she wonders if Charlie would take Jake's side as much as he does if he realised the choice was between vampires and werewolves! :-) Bella knows that her father means well, but she also believes that Edward is back and that he left for her benefit (as ill judged an action as it was), rather than because he didn't care about her. So she is being strong because, although she knows Charlie means well, she also knows that he can't know all the details, and is therefore wrong in his assessment."

Whether he is wrong in his assessment doesn't matter. Bella still has no right to so blatantly brush off his worries. Since she knows he doesn't have all the information of the situation like she does, she should cut him some slack, not threaten to leave because he in his mind believes he's trying to do what's best for his daughter, again.

"Her reactions are certainly strong, but that might be what indicates that she was born for the supernatural world. However, just because her reactions are stronger than normal, doesn't mean that she is not brave. There is clearly bravery in her actions, especially since she did most things while she was still a physically weak human. "

I do believe I said it before, that where you see bravery I see stupidity. There indeed is a fine line between the two.

[Heidi]

Jesse wrote: "Whether he is wrong in his assessment doesn't matter. Bella still has no right to so blatantly brush off his worries. Since she knows he doesn't have all the information of the situation like she does, she should cut him some slack, not threaten to leave because he in his mind believes he's trying to do what's best for his daughter, again."

I think its interesting that this whole discussion on if Bella is strong or not, and yet some people say that she cannot make any decisions herself. She clearly made this decision. All by herself. And yet its being argued that she should of been cowed into submission by her dad. Because doing everything your parents tell you to do takes strength? Not doing what her dad tells her to do is weakness?

[Maxine]

Maggie wrote: "Ok this thread has become pathetic. She will practically starve to death if she didn't have someone like Jacob or Edward. Never once was she without a guy in the entire series. She shows no indepen..."

People like you help my faith in humanity :)

[[deleted user]]

Maxine wrote: "Maggie wrote: "Ok this thread has become pathetic. She will practically starve to death if she didn't have someone like Jacob or Edward. Never once was she without a guy in the entire series. She s..."
Mine too. :)

[Jessica]

Heidi wrote: "I think its interesting that this whole discussion on if Bella is strong or not, and yet some people say that she cannot make any decisions herself. She clearly made this decision. All by herself. And yet its being argued that she should of been cowed into submission by her dad. Because doing everything your parents tell you to do takes strength? Not doing what her dad tells her to do is weakness?

It's not that should should be cowed into submission by her father. It's not having a blatant disregard for what he feels. She knows that he cares and that he doesn't have the whole story on the situation yet she's treating him like he's purposely trying to keep her away from Edward, which is wrong. She has no respect for him when she should at the very least.

[Chloe]

When I first read the book and was still a fan of the series (I'm not a non-fan of it now or anything, I've just passed the hype) I didn't necessarily think her weak. I thought her rambling and a bit dull at times, but weak didn't cross my mind until I started reading the criticism. I think calling it 'anti-feminist' is too extreme, however.

[Chloe]

The only point I inherently thought her feeble was during her zombie-phase in New Moon. New Moon was my least favourite book in the series for that reason. Her reaction was over-necessary, ALTHOUGH sadness and pain after loosing someone you imagined spending your life with isn't something you can just 'get over' either.

[[deleted user]]

I didn't even get through the first book, so I don't have a very well-rounded opinion, but from what I read she got very depressed over some guy looking at her weird in class. That doesn't exactly scream "strong character".

[[deleted user]]

Olivia wrote: "Tessa Vakarian, Queen of the Final Frontier wrote: "I didn't even get through the first book, so I don't have a very well-rounded opinion, but from what I read she got very depressed over some guy ..."

I don't think a character's ability to protect everyone determines their strength - I think it's more their attitude towards the situation, and Bella didn't really have the best personality.

[Heidi]

Tessa Vakarian, Queen of the Final Frontier wrote: "Olivia wrote: "Tessa Vakarian, Queen of the Final Frontier wrote: "I didn't even get through the first book, so I don't have a very well-rounded opinion, but from what I read she got very depressed..."

I don't think that Bella was very strong, but I don't think she was very weak either. I think she was normal. Yeah the books say that she was an old soul. I've known people with what I'd consider an old soul, they aren't impervious to pain and acting their age. I think she was the Pepper Potts, the Mary Jane, the Lois Lane character around these super beings. Everyone expects her to be "wonder woman" (who btw is more badass than superman). And I'm not talking about the super 70s wonder woman who used her bracelets to bounce bullets either. (I'm talking about, the one who can fly and the bracelets are to reign IN her power)

Jesse said :"It's not that should should be cowed into submission by her father. It's not having a blatant disregard for what he feels. She knows that he cares and that he doesn't have the whole story on the situation yet she's treating him like he's purposely trying to keep her away from Edward, which is wrong. She has no respect for him when she should at the very least. "

Are people defined by ONE choice they make? You're basing that she has "a blatant disregard" for her father off of the choice of saving someones life or staying home because your dad says so. If it means saving someones life, I would blatantly disregard my father every time. She isn't cold or heartless either. She knew she hurt him and felt bad about it. If she had blatant disregard, she wouldn't care that she hurt his feelings.

[[deleted user]]

Heidi wrote: "Tessa Vakarian, Queen of the Final Frontier wrote: "Olivia wrote: "Tessa Vakarian, Queen of the Final Frontier wrote: "I didn't even get through the first book, so I don't have a very well-rounded ..."

I don't know if you used good examples for "normal" characters, because Potts, Jane, and Lane are actually pretty awesome, but maybe that's it. Bella was normal. *shrugs* Misjudged, moving on.
(Totally agreed about Wonder Woman!)