June 2013 Themed Read-Consider Phlebas

[Ric]

First classical reference - Robinson Crusoe.

[Ric]

Anybody else still reading?

[Mickey]

Still reading, about 70% though. I find the book is picking up to my liking after the eaters. More action than grossness now. The book is highly structured, lots of Yin vs Yang... Have I said too much already :)

Not sure how this works here? Do I post a detailed review under my book collections with a link here called "Spoiler" or post it here or both?

Also, I have not read any reviews or anything about this book before or after I bought it. So I do not know of anyone's opinions except they "like it or not like it".

[Mickey]

I looked for how to set up the "Spoiler" hide and show link.
How does that work?

[mark, personal space invader]

<+spoiler+>
<+/+spoiler+>

put the above before and after your spoiler, except remove all of the pluses.

[Mickey]

mark wrote: "
<+spoiler+>
<+/+spoiler+>
put the above before and after your spoiler, except remove all of the pluses."

(view spoiler)[ So I see, said the blind man, eating soup with a fork, at the forth corner of the round table.
(hide spoiler)]

[Todd]

I've been wanting to start this series for awhile, and this provided the perfect excuse to wait no longer. I'm about 50% through, and when I started, based on some of the criticisms I've read and comments, the high hopes I used to have for this series were muted a bit, if that makes sense. Having now read 1/2 the book I can say I'm really enjoying it, the writing is very good, the story and theme is interesting and I'm really glad to have finally started it. Unless something goes horribly awry in the book, I'd say I'm hooked on a new and enjoyable series! Can't wait to finish the book.

[Ric]

Mickey wrote: "mark wrote: "
put the above before and after your spoiler, except remove all of the pluses.""

The spoiler protection works!

[Ric]

Todd wrote: "I've been wanting to start this series for awhile, and this provided the perfect excuse to wait no longer. I'm about 50% through, and when I started, based on some of the criticisms I've read and c..."

Banks does tell a good yarn; some of his imagined scenes are on the horrific side.

[Jonathan]

Saw Man of Steel.....couldn't help but think of Banks' drones on Krypton!

[Ric]

Almost done. An uneven story with peaks of sf imagery in a sea of gross-out scenes and unengaging characters. Perhaps Banks was after some deeper message. 3 stars for me.

[Mickey]

Finished last night. I give it 4 out 5. I will post a more in depth review in a day or so. Also I have not read any reviews of this book yet past or present.

I will say he is an excellent writer. Lots and lots of patterns in this book that made it so easy to predict what coming next. The book was too highly structured with little surprises for my liking.

A good world and character builder for two stars. Writing was excellent for one star. The book and characters are memorable for
the forth star. The story line was lack luster and could not give him that extra star.

But not bad for his first Science Fiction novel if that was his first in my opinion.

But then exactly how did the quote go from Kurt Vonnegut go? "95% of Science Fiction writers have no taste, 100% of Science fiction readers have no taste". I am in the 100 % category.

Typing this with an iPhone.

[Maggie, space cruisin' for a bruisin']

I really enjoyed this book, but it is hardly positive. I see it as a reflection on war and all its futility. I dont see it as a good character story.

[Mickey]

Consider Plhebas

My review of the book "Considering Phlebas by Iain M. Banks.
Also posted under my personal book review.

(view spoiler)[
THE STRUCTURE:

I see the "MIND" as a gadget, person or thing, like in many stories, that different groups or individuals are after and the "Path" is the actual story.

The Yins and Yangs, extreme vs extreme. Let me list the ways.

Order vs Chaos : 
Order associated with Culture and Chaos associated with Iridian.

The "Strategist" - female vs male:
Fal Shilde Ngeestra - From the Culture, female, has an intelligent drone as a friend.
 Querl Xoralundra - From the Iridains, male, has a not so intelligent  Medjel as a slave.

 The "Tacticians" - again female vs male:
 Perosteck Balveda - From the Culture, female, well trained and cares about others.
Bora Horza Gobuuchal - From the Iridian, male, a changer that cares only for himself.

Females vs Males - ( Fal and Balveda ) vs ( Xoralundra and Horza)

{ After reading the chapter "State of play: one" and observing this setup in today's society, I knew the women would win the gadget called the MIND. }

{ oh how do I miss they good old days of "film Noir" when it was the single, childless, hot looking, vixen women that was always the evil one that committed the crimes :) }

From the chapter: Dramatist personae.

Both "Tacticians", Horza and Belveda had died. Horza by the hand of his allies the Iridians and Belveda committed self termination after the war. Belveda could not live with her past acts of violence.

Both "Strategist", Fal and Querl got promotions and lived long fulfilling lives after the war.

{ One odd thing that Fal had a sex change operation after the war. If Fal had superior  intelligence equal to the minds. Does this mean that life is better as a male, implied from the book :) }


THE VIOLENCE:

I felt the reason for all the violence is to show how evil the Iridan empire is.
How many ways to list the different forms of violence.

WAR - The Iridian empire started the war against the peaceful Culture Empire.
Murder - Horza murdered a person on the planet Sorpen, chapter 1: Sorpen.
Torture - Horza's punishment for murder drowning in a septic tank, chapter 1: Sorpen.
Slavery - The Medjel served under the Iridian, Chapter 2: the hand of God 137.
Cruelty - Querl kicking a Medjel when down for falling, instead of helping him up.
Mass Murder - Xoralundra nuking cities without concern - chapter 2, hand of God 137.
Fighting - Horza fighting for his life on the CAT ship, chapter 3: Clear Air Turbulence.
Rape - Captain saying "Culture women could not be raped",  Iridian space they could?
Piracy, murder, stealing, theft - chapter 4: Temple of light.
Selfishness - I am taking you with me with the personal nuke, Chapter 5: Megaship
Cannibalism - need I say more, chapter 6, The Eaters.
Gladiatorial Fighting - the mind game called damage, Chapter 7: A game of damage.
Animal Cruelty - Animals fighting to death from ceiling, Chapter 7: A game of damage. 
Recklessness - Harming innocent beings as flying through the GSV: Chapter 8
Murder - Chapters 10 through 12.
Vengeance - Horza's uncontrollable urge to kill the Iridain that killed his pregnant mate.
{ There is no honor among thieves }

{ a note that Belveda asked Horza to let go the Iridan that killed his mate to show that those living in the culture are not vengeful and forgiving }


THE RELIGION:

The Culture : 
"Imagine" there is no religion... and everyone living life in peace, John Lenon.

The Iridian : 
Religion is the other major player in the Iridan empire along with all of the violence. Religion and Violence goes hand in hand in this book.

Chapter 2: The hand of God 132.
Even the WAR ships are named after God.

Chapter 4: Temple of Light.
{Easy in Easy out? Surprise! Priest carry guns! }
{ Sell what you have and buy a sword - Bible, Luke 22,36 }

Chapter 6: The Eaters.
{ The gods are everywhere in this chapter, give thanks to god for our human dinner. }

“The Idirans saw themselves as agents in this great reordering. They were the chosen—at first allowed the peace to understand what God desired" quote from Horza in chapter 6.

{ Predestination - I personally call this,  Religion of Narcissism. God chosen me, kiss yourself, God loves me, kiss yourself, God chosen me... }

{ With this viewpoint, god has chosen you as an agent of God, therefore you are better than others that were not chosen and provides the excuse to harm others, if god has not chosen you, then you are a bad person. }

SUMMERY:

 As I see it, this is a story where Violence and Religion goes hand in hand as seen through the eyes of a criminal named Horza. Take away religion and one will live in peace. And I agree with this "self perceived" viewpoint.

(hide spoiler)]

I give this book 4 out of 5 stars.

I will say Iain M. banks is an excellent writer. Lots and lots of patterns in this book that made it so easy to predict what coming next. The book was too highly structured with little surprises for my liking. 

A good world and character builder for two stars. Writing was excellent for one star. The book and characters are memorable for the forth star. The story line was lack luster and could not give him that extra star. 

[Mickey]

Three more days left in this month. Next month I will finish another book that started over a month ago Steel Beach. Then move on to the book Cetaganda for the club read. I think I will bow out for I Am Legend, after reading Consider Plhebas I want something a little lighter to read.

So again three more days left for reviews, so here it goes on the next post.

[Mickey]

jaw wrote: "Actually, I think that's on purpose. I think the violence is progressive. It's a downward spiral.


I'm seeing patterns of progressive violence and emptiness which to me seems like a slow descent ..."

Since there are three days left in this month and I claim no religion to hold on to and a little bit of anarchy in me, I will cast the first stone of discussion.

(view spoiler)[
Yes, there are lots of patterns in this book. I do agree with the violence and emptiness patterens, but it is necessary. it is in the emptiness sceens where Horza is reflectling on life and his relationships with others. While waiting durring the eaters, do you not think these are good areas to reflect on the Iridains and thier God?

I am not sure it a decent, I see the violence as a constant :)
(hide spoiler)]

[Mickey]

Maggie wrote: "I really enjoyed this book, but it is hardly positive. I see it as a reflection on war and all its futility. I dont see it as a good character story."

I agree Horza is not a good character story. Horza is ment to be seen as a vile person in my opinion. That is why i believe some people have a hard time with this book.

(view spoiler)[
I disagree as a reflection of war and its futility. Culture won the war and the MINDS found the war necessary. If culture did not go to war their society would probably end up losing their peaceful lifestyle. After all it was the machines that did most of the fighting not the people. As stated in the Chapter Reasons: the Culture".

Could it be that religious orientated people could not "see" how the author was showing how much violence there is associated with religion?

Religion and Violence almost have an equal share in the story. I do not think there is a single instance where religion was shown in a positive light in this book. Some wars are justified and Not futile, otherwise bad things can happen to good people.

That is how I see this book, "it is about violence and religion going hand in hand".
(hide spoiler)]

Can I remove the spoilers now :)

[Mickey]

One more note, from reading reviews of others now, Consider Phlebas is nothing like the other Culture Books. Is this true?

Is this book from Iain M. banks the darkest?
If they are all this dark I think I am done will Iain Banks.

[mark, personal space invader]

All books by the author have an element of darkness, bu t i think this one & wasp factory are the darkest ive read.

[Jean-Michel]

I think Consider Phebas and Use of Weapons are similar in many respects, including dark and very disturbed major characters and acts of atrocity against the backdrop of the Culture trying to better their corner of the galaxy. The other Culture novels I found to be quite different from those two, however.

[Ric]

http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

Putting the link instead of repeating my review. Still 3 stars after giving the book a week to simmer. Am wondering if there is a Banks book that is not so dark. not so colored by the author's depressing world view, not inclined to summary judgment.

[Mickey]

Ric wrote: "http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

Putting the link instead of repeating my review. Still 3 stars after giving the book a week to simmer. Am wondering if there is a Banks book that i..."

I like your review and agree with it. However, I am not so profound and "I welcome our machine overlords" and "avoid as much as possible religious fanatics".

I can see why the book was so dark, the author wanted to hammer the reader about how bad a religious based empire could be.

[Suzanne]

I was glad to have a reason to start the Culture series (although I have read one of the later books). I agree, some of the scenes were horrific. I often read when I eat breakfast and lunch, but after a gross scene corresponded with breakfast, I avoided those times with this book.

I enjoyed the reviews people have written - thanks for taking the time to do that. I really like the giant universe that Banks built and I plan on reading the other books in the series so that I can see more of its diversity. I thought the Death Game (sorry I know that's not the exact name) was quite interesting and not too far distant from some reality t.v. =)

[Mickey]

I know this a bit off topic. Consider Phlebas was my first eBook for general reading. Avoided them from the first reviews of kindle when they came out and when kindle 2 came out everyone lost their original purchases. Reason for my late entry into the eBook world.

After reading Phlebas on my iPad, I became hooked, I now prefer ebooks over paper. I could resize the fonts for easier reading comfort and did not need to sit under my favorite natural light lamp. Taking notes, easy bookmarking and word searching. Never loosing my place like I do with books. Yep I prefer ebooks for reading now. I can also get any book I want and many are free. Tiny paperback books print was just to small for my aged eyes to read. Except one thing on my mind is, I cannot sell eBooks or give them away like I can with paper bound books.

[Mickey]

Suzanne wrote: "I was glad to have a reason to start the Culture series (although I have read one of the later books). I agree, some of the scenes were horrific. I often read when I eat breakfast and lunch, but ..."

The eaters reminded me of Holloween when I made finger cookies one year.
http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/foo...

[Ric]

Mickey wrote: "I can see why the book was so dark, the author wanted to hammer the reader about how bad a religious based empire could be ..."
Now, that is profound. If this theme is carried in his later books, then it would be hard for me to read them as well.

I am hoping for a lighter read on the next group book.

[Andreas]

Ric wrote: I am hoping for a lighter read on the next group book.
Like I am Legend and Other Stories? ROFL

[Mickey]

Andreas wrote: "Ric wrote: I am hoping for a lighter read on the next group book.
Like I am Legend and Other Stories? ROFL"

The horror indeed! I could not handle seeing Will Smiths face every time I read about the main Charater in the book "I am legend"... Scary!

[Mickey]

Ric wrote: "Mickey wrote: "I can see why the book was so dark, the author wanted to hammer the reader about how bad a religious based empire could be ..."
Now, that is profound. If this theme is carried in hi..."

I wonder if people using the apps cannot open the spoilers in many areas. I have to use the web to open the spoilers. So I will try the link method.

http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

Nope spoilers do not work with the app on the iPad, does with the iPhone so I removed them from my book review from the link.

So many here are not reading the spoilers?

[Andreas]

I had to laugh so hard, when this roboter Unaha-Closp thought: "The man was a speciesist!"
It was the first time that I heard of the generalized form of racism.

[Mickey]

Andreas wrote: "I had to laugh so hard, when this roboter Unaha-Closp thought: "The man was a speciesist!"
It was the first time that I heard of the generalized form of racism."

Unaha-Closp would be insulted being compared to a robot, he was a drone :)
I though the drone was the best Charater in the book.

[Ric]

Andreas wrote: "Ric wrote: I am hoping for a lighter read on the next group book.
Like I am Legend and Other Stories? ROFL"

Maybe I'll skip. :}

[Jonathan]

Rip Iain. Just found out he died while we were reading his book.....

[Maggie, space cruisin' for a bruisin']

That is one cool thing about the culture series, the humanization of the Droids and Drones....very cool effect!

[LindaJ^]

I finally finished this book. It never captured me. I doubt I will delve anymore into the Culture books.

[Álvaro]

John wrote: "I was waiting to start reading Consider Phlebas. Here we go!"

I said "Here we go!" but I have just finish it today. I´m afraid I was never hooked. And it is not a bad book. It is like a movie, with impresive scenes, destruction, our hero running and surviving and amazing worlds, spacecrafts and so on.

[Alexa]

Bumping this forward out of sheer generosity of spirit.

[Mickey]

Alexa wrote: "Bumping this forward out of sheer generosity of spirit."

Could be premature, in the run off, women are winning right now :)

[Alexa]

And it didn't even bump it to the home page, so it was all in vain.

[Mike]

I just finished this one, getting ready to start The Player of Games.

Great author, great writing. I really liked the philosophical bent of the book, and the imaginative world building. Kraiklyn and his crew and their adventures were entertaining. Damage was cool. So were the conscious robots and ships.

That being said, it really annoyed me how the ending was driven by Horza mysteriously transforming into a bumbling idiot. Everything that happened on Schar's Planet really fell flat. The plot throughout that section was tedious and predictable, and the characters who were so carefully developed in the rest of the the book fell apart and were seemingly there only to drive the uncompelling plot about the Mind to its conclusion. It's like Iain Banks was in a rush to meet a deadline. A real shame, because up until that point it was a 4 or more stars novel. I hope the next ones in the Culture series are better. I have hope, since everyone says they're completely different.

(view spoiler)[ Hey, the alien who was tied up escaped and almost killed us! Let's tie him up the same way and hope it doesn't happen again! Because there's actually a plausible reason we've kept him alive at all! Ugh.

And I get it, the train is going to crash into the other train. You're not building suspense by flashing back and forth rapid-fire between characters to tell me what insignificant things they're doing and thinking. And you had to bring someone back from the dead to get us here? Weak! (hide spoiler)]

[Micah]

Mike wrote: "I hope the next ones in the Culture series are better. I have hope, since everyone says they're completely different..."

Take heart. After reading this book I almost didn't continue reading Banks. It was the first book of his I'd read and I found it fairly mundane. But Player of Games is on a different level. So are a couple of his other Culture books. None of the others were quite as blasé as this one (IIRC), so pretty much the rest of his catalog is better...Either that or I just got used to his writing style!

[Mike]

That's good to know. Having previously read The Wasp Factory and Espedair Street I'm not tempted to give up on him, because I know he's a much better writer than this. I'd have given the Wasp Factory 6 stars if it were an option.

And again, I thought this one was great for the first 3/4 of it. It's a shame it fell apart. Maybe I have higher standards when I know someone was capable of doing better.

[Micah]

I didn't think it was horrible, but I couldn't understand how this began what became a great series of books. It's not a book I would imagine people reading and then hopping up and down demanding more in this universe.

In short, it didn't feel like a groundbreaking series beginning. It felt more like a third or fourth book in a series when all the juice and excitement had been sucked out and the thing is just running on gas fumes leftover from earlier books.

I mean, it was entertaining enough, but I did feel like we were just jogging along following the action because it had been set in motion. Pretty mainstream and unchallenging.

Mostly harmless.