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House of Chains (Malazan Book of the Fallen, #4)
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Group Read - House of Chains > HoC - Chapter Twenty One - NO SPOILERS

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message 1: by Lee, High Priest of Shadow (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lee (kiwifirst) | 1508 comments Mod
Chapter Twenty One Discussion Thread


message 2: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
Febryl once served a Protector who we now know was named Enqura

He had once served the Holy Falah’d Enqura...
...Enqura had well understood the Mezla thirst for knowledge, the Emperor’s lust for foreign secrets, and the city’s Holy Protector would give them nothing


Sha’ik knows of the past that Febryl is ashamed of

No possessor of his secrets could be permitted to live. He refused to be so ... vulnerable. To anyone. Even Sha’ik. Especially Sha’ik.
And so she must be removed. Even if it means dealing with Mezla.


Our old mate Mallick Rell is on his way to inform the Empress that he and Korbolo have been working for her all along – yeah right.

Somewhere to the south, Mallick Rel, the Jhistal priest of Elder Mael, was trekking towards Aren, there to surrender himself. He would, in turn, be brought before the Empress herself.
And then what? That snake of a priest would announce an extraordinary reversal of fortunes in Seven Cities. Korbolo Dom had been working in her interests all along.



And here’s a thought that struck me – Korbolo has infiltrated the Palace in Unta. And Korbolo has assassins working for him within the whirlwind. And Pearl is pretty sure that the Talon master is somewhere inside the whirlwind. Hmmm...Korbolo?

Korbolo Dom, Febryl believed, had agents in the palace in Unta – what was being played out here in Raraku was but a tremble on a much vaster web.

A vaster web masterminded by the Talon?


And the whirlwind goddess is a T’lan Imass spirit?
Humans are Imass progeny?

There was a throne, of course, upon which was meant to sit a mortal – the progeny race of the T’lan Imass. A human. Alas, humans viewed empire ... differently. And their vision did not include T’lan Imass.

He faced Febryl once more. ‘The goddess spirit is ... was ... T’lan Imass?’...
... But the other mage shook his head. ‘She is a creature of rage. Such fury does not belong to T’lan Imass—’
‘Unless she had reason. Memories of a betrayal, perhaps, from her mortal life. A wound too deep to be eradicated by the Ritual of Tellann.’ Febryl shrugged. ‘It does not matter. The spirit is T’lan Imass.’


Wow.


Meanwhile, L’oric senses a convergence and he’s worried

Something was coming. Bestial and wild with power. And with each passing moment, as it drew ever nearer, L’oric’s fear grew. Ancient wars. . . such is the feel of this, as of enmity reborn, a hatred that defies millennia. And though he sensed that no-one mortal in the oasis city was the subject of that wrath, the truth remained that... we are all in the way.


L’oric decides to go take a look and he decides to access the Tellan warren. How does a Tiste Liosan gain access to the T’lan Imass racial warren? Because Tellan like Thyr is a spin off or child warren of Kurald Thyrllan!

Kurald Thyrllan had been born of violence, the shattering of Darkness. The Elder Warren had since branched off in many directions, reaching to within the grasp of mortal humans as Thyr. And, before that, in the guise of life-giving fire, Tellann.

Why doesn’t he just use Kurald Thyrllian – because the shattering of its connected sister warren hasn’t made it that easy

Whereas Kurald Thyrllan had been twisted and left fraught by the shattering of its sister warren. There were no easy passages into Thyrllan, as he well knew.
Very well, then. I shall try Tellann.


But when L’oric steps through he finds that rather than being in the Tellan warren he finds himself within a memory of Raraku – and there he sees the Hounds of Darkness – The Degaroth, hunting with domesticated humans, or pre-humans. There are also a few K’Chain Chemalle in their who end up as food.


And then we finally get to meet his father Osseric – who is also a white soletaken dragon and we get some goodies.

The K’Chain Che’Malle skykeeps invariably approach from the north, over water.’
‘Skykeeps ... such as Moon’s Spawn?’
A veiled glance, then a nod. ‘Yes.’


Moonspawn was originally a K’chain Chemalle skykeep.

‘You are saying Moon’s Spawn was originally one of these skykeeps that arrived here?’
‘It was. Three have come in the time that I have been here. None survived the Deragoth.’



The Degaroth – or Hounds of Darkness have no affiliation or association with Kurald Galain – its just a name

‘You called the Deragoth “Hounds of Darkness”. Are they children of Mother Dark, then?’
‘They are no-one’s children,’ Osric growled, then he shook his head. ‘They have that stench about them, but in truth I have no idea. It just seemed an appropriate name. “Deragoth” in the Tiste Andii tongue.’


Osseric seems rather indifferent to the Liosan Plight or to his supposed role. His solutions is for L’oric to replace his demon familiar

Your people and their realm have lost their protector. They pray for your return, Father.’
‘What of your familiar?’
‘Slain. By T’lan Imass.’
‘So,’ Osric said, ‘find yourself another.’


Which is what he does. He snags himself a demon called “Greyfrog.” Greyfrog likes his food. Which is ok so long as it’s not human. Which suits Greyfrog because he would rather not be lonely.

That thing could eat both of us.’
‘Observant. She is right, companion L’oric. Maudlin. I would waddle. Alas. Torpid vulnerability. Distraught. All alone.’


This demon does standup?


Anyway, L’oric has no intention of hanging around when the convergence goes down – especially when there are Degaroth nearby and will most probably be drawn by the convergence – power draws power. He’s taking Felisin and Heboric with him – though he and Heboric are going to hang about as long as possible to watch what goes down.

‘There will be a convergence, Felisin. With some ... unexpected guests. And I do not think anyone here will survive their company for long. There will be ... vast slaughter.’

Bidithal and Sha’ik have a conversation of the distinctions between Rashan and Meanas – which appears to very blurred or..shadowy

We are both well aware that the distinctions diminish the closer one delves into the mysteries of the most ancient triumvirate. Shadow, after all, was born of the clash between Light and Dark. And Meanas is, in essence, drawn from the warrens of Thyrllan and Galain, Thyr and Rashan. It is, if you will, a hybrid discipline.’


It appears as if Bidithal has been bought of by Febryl with the promise of what he always wanted anyway – a resurrected priesthood..and girls

Oh yes, we know all about your ... special children. Imagine, then, all of Seven Cities at your disposal. All of Seven Cities, honoured to deliver to you their unwanted daughters.’

And Karsa is on his way back. He’s kept ‘Sibale’s head to keep him company.

He is on his way back to Sha’ik. Karsa is done with sitting around and watching everybody’s crap. There are people there like Bidithal who just need to die and he’s off to deliver judgement

He had been indifferent for long enough, indifferent to so many things. He had reined in his spirit’s greatest strengths, among them his need to make judgements, and act decisively upon them in true Teblor fashion.
I have tolerated the deceitful and the malicious for long enough. My sword shall now answer them.


He could sit down and make a hit list but he decides it’s probably just easier delivering indiscriminate carnage

The Toblakai warrior was even less interested in creating a list of names, since names invited vows, and he had had enough of vows. No, he would kill as the mood took him.
He looked forward to his homecoming...

...The battle would be a day of chaos, and Karsa Orlong meant to add to it.



Oh and he’s decided the crippled god needs freeing AND killing

‘They chained him, Karsa Orlong, to dead ground. He is broken. In eternal pain. He has been twisted by captivity and now knows only suffering.’
‘Then I shall break his chains—’
‘I am pleased—’
‘And then kill him.’



Karsa has a lot of killing to get to.


Lori L'Oric is a good guy! I've been full of distrust for him because he is Light, and our previous Tiste Liosan were assholes.

I was shocked about the Whirlwind being T'lann Imass - they sure do get around. For some reason I was wondering about a connection between her and Onrack/Kilava - was she his betrayed wife.

I think we already knew that humans were progeny of the Imass, Tool calls them the children of the Imass.

Karsa is just plain awesome. I gave him short shift last time, but he's just awesome!

I am so curious about the Hounds, and this splitting, confusion between Rashan, Meanus, etc.


Mikeiwo | 57 comments Lori (Hellian) wrote: "Karsa is just plain awesome. I gave him short shift last time, but he's just awesome!"

Witness!


message 5: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
Lori (Hellian) wrote: "I was shocked about the Whirlwind being T'lann Imass - they sure do get around. For some reason I was wondering about a connection between her and Onrack/Kilava - was she his betrayed wife."

Oh that would be tragic. Can't wait to find out now.


message 6: by Rob, Quick Ben (last edited Jun 07, 2013 04:04AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Rob (robzak) | 1054 comments Mod
This was the first chapter to confuse me in awhile. I wasn't quite sure if the Whirlwind was T'lann Imass or not. I guess so based on you're all discussion.

I'm also not really sure about the place (stuck memory?) wher L'Oric finds his dad. Osric is an asshole. Pretty much like the rest of Tiste Liosan, so I guess not much of a surprise. I'm coming around on L'Oric though.

I'm also coming around on Heboric. So it went from 0 people

By the way I find all the names of these warrens and how they are related to each other super hard to remember. Very frustrating at points.

Usually I'm good (though not always) when I read their names, but trying to pull those names from memory..forget it.

And yeah, I see why people like Karsa. I've found him interesting to read even if I didn't start off liking him very much.


message 7: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
Rob wrote: "By the way I find all the names of these warrens and how they are related to each other super hard to remember. Very frustrating at points. "

A lot of it just went over my head the first read, but I didn't feel the plot suffered other than feeling bloated with stuff I didn't understand at times. This time round unpacking the world building is just as fun as the plot.


Lori I had to keep checking the glossary for all the warrens, I think I finally stopped around book 8.


Silvio Curtis | 403 comments We've definitely known the Imass were human ancestors, but I was surprised to find out they gave humans such an important role in their First Empire. I'd envisioned the T'lan Imass letting humans go their own way and ignoring them so long as they didn't get in the way of killing Jaghut.

If Tellann, the warren of fire, is a branch of Kurald Thyrllan, I wonder if Omtose Phellack, as the warren of ice, could be a branch of Kurald Galain.


message 10: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
Silvio wrote: "If Tellann, the warren of fire, is a branch of Kurald Thyrllan, I wonder if Omtose Phellack, as the warren of ice, could be a branch of Kurald Galain."

Light vs Dark to Fire vs Ice? That's an interesting speculation. I don't think there has been a hint of it so far but I like the way you think


Search (onceafantasizer) | 1 comments Yup, that is certainly an interesting thought. But there hasn't been any evidence of it so far. Well as far as I remember, atleast.


message 12: by Lee, High Priest of Shadow (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lee (kiwifirst) | 1508 comments Mod
And how, Greyfrog, did you come here?

'Sudden moroseness. One hop too far'.


I loved this.


message 13: by Sumant (last edited Sep 08, 2013 07:47AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Sumant | 272 comments Why doesn’t he just use Kurald Thyrllian – because the shattering of its connected sister warren hasn’t made it that easy

so you mean to say shattering of kurald emurahln(shadow) has also weakened kuralad thyrallain(light) ?. So is there definitely some connection between all three warrens ?

and there he sees the Hounds of Darkness – The Degaroth, hunting with domesticated humans, or pre-humans.

Are all seven of them called Degaroth ?

As far as i know about warrens the elder warrens are :
1.Kurald Galain (Dark) - Rashan for humans as they cannot use kurald galain directly.Also it has been mentioned that warrens get affected by people using it.so if rashan gets corrupted will it also corrupt galain ?.

2.Clash of Galain And Thyrallain = Kurald Emruhaln (shadow) - Meanas for humans.

3.Kurald Thyrallan (Light) - Thyr for humans

4.Omtose Phellack - Humans cannot use this but imass have penetrated this warren don't know how ? Must be something do with the ritual.

5.Tellanan - Born from the ritual if imass and it draws from Thyrallan i guess as galain draws form chaos(assumption).

6.Kurald Starvdemlain - I think this is for dragons.

Also each warren has a azath for it so if someone powerful is using warren to the edges of its destruction the azath comes into play and prisons that entity so that there is not a tear in the fabric of warren and so it does not bleed into others.Also elder warrens are not affected by otaral.


message 14: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
Sumant wrote: "so you mean to say shattering of kurald emurahln(shadow) has also weakened kuralad thyrallain(light) ?. So is there definitely some connection between all three warrens ?"

Yes - All three belong to the three races of Tiste - Tiste Andii for Dark, Tiste Liosan for Light and Tiste Edur for Shadow. They are described in this book as a Trimvirate

From Ch 10
‘Did you know,’ the High Mage murmured as he worked, ‘that some of the oldest scholarly treatises on the warrens speak of a triumvirate. Rashan, Thyr and Meanas. As if the three were all closely related to one another. And then in turn seek to link them to corresponding Elder warrens.’


Sumant wrote: "Are all seven of them called Degaroth"

Yes

Sumant wrote: "Also each warren has a azath for it so if someone powerful is using warren to the edges of its destruction the azath comes into play and prisons that entity"

It's described as wanting to take any entity which has the potential to bring cataclysmic (to life) sorcery to bear - It won't necessarily wait for that sorcery to be unleashed before attempting to imprison an entity that comes within it's range.

Your other points are spot on.


message 15: by Conor (last edited Oct 19, 2014 12:05PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Conor | 78 comments So about warrens: I've seen a few references so far to warrens being somehow connected to certain places in the 'real' world. i.e. the fragment of kurald emurahln being tied to Raraku. How does this work and how does it fit in with the blood/artery metaphor.

Also there are a number of references in this book to humans only being able to access 3 warrens but I could swear we've seen human mages use more. Doesn't Quick Ben have access to a butload?


message 16: by Dara (new) - rated it 4 stars

Dara (cmdrdara) | 210 comments I don't have an answer about warrens that isn't spoilery. Same for Quick. You'll learn more about what makes Quick unique as the series progresses. Maybe somewhere in the Bonehunters that's revealed...


DangerBin | 64 comments Good stuff. Love Greyfrog and Karsa. Kings of comedy.


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