18. ROOSEVELT'S CENTURIONS - CHAPTER TWENTY-TWO and TWENTY-THREE, (p. 472 - 505) ~ SEPTEMBER 30TH - OCTOBER 6TH; No Spoilers, Please

[Alisa]

Hello Everyone,

For the week of September 30, 2013 - October 6, 2013, we are reading Chapter TWENTY-TWO and TWENTY-THREE, (p. 472 - 505) of Roosevelt's Centurions: FDR & the Commanders He Led to Victory in World War II.

This week's reading assignment is:

Week Eighteen - September 30th - October 6th -> Chapter TWENTY-TWO and TWENTY-THREE, p. 472 - 505 - TWENTY-TWO - Leveling Japan, Invading Okinawa and TWENTY-THREE - To Take Berlin?

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book is being kicked off on May 28th (the day the book is released officially). We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle. Make sure to pre-order now if you haven't already. This weekly thread will be opened up on September 30th. We offer a special thank you to Random House for their generosity.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Alisa will be leading this discussion.

Welcome,

~ Alisa


TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Joseph E. Persico

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

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If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

(Part One) http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...
(Part Two) http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in her research or in her notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Q&A with Joseph

Please as you are reading post questions to the author's Q&A thread because Joseph Persico will be looking in periodically and will be posting answers to your questions and will be available for a chat. We are very fortunate that he is making time to spend with us.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...

by Joseph E. Persico

[Jill]

Chapter Overviews and Summaries

Chapter 22: Leveling Japan, Invading Okinawa

MacArthur got a taste of what it would be like to take on the Japanese in the battle of the Philippines. No surrender and destruction and brutality beyond belief. MacArthur tried to save his beloved city of Manila but it was left razed to the ground by the Japanese. MacArthur went on, without orders, and took other non-strategic islands in the Philippines but justified his decision since he was tying up Japanese troops who were needed elsewhere.

General Marshall advocated the use of poisonous gas since the Japanese would not surrender but fight to the death, causing Allied death tolls to rise. He took his proposition to FDR who stood firm against it and of course, prevailed.

The B-29 bomber is introduced. The only weakness of this machine was that they could not expect fighter protection after the fighters' fuel range was reached. It condemned the B-29 crew to ditching in the ocean with little chance of survival. So the Americans turned their eyes to Iwo Jima, a sliver of rock that was 800 miles from mainland Japan, which could serve as an emergency landing point for the B-29. The attack on this presumed deserted island turned into a slaughter and many American lives were lost. Only 200 Japanese were taken alive. The picture of the flag raising on Mount Suribachi became one of the most iconic images of WWII and won a Pulitzer Prize for the photographer. A 100 ton bronze statue honoring the moment stands today in Washington, DC.

The use of the atomic bomb was raising many moral questions. General Curtis LeMay, in charge of the air strategy against Japan, was facing the decision on how best to defeat the enemy in the Pacific. He sends his B-29s to Tokyo with incendiary bombs and caused the most casualties in one day of the entire war.

The phenomena of the kamikazi was particularly effective at Okinawa and the US Navy suffered its greatest loss in WWII. In Germany, Herman Goering, head of the Luftwaffe was fascinated by the idea of suicide pilots and recruited 300 volunteers. The experiment was not succesful.

Chapter 23: To Take Berlin?

RAF General "Bomber" Harris was a proponent of bombing population centers, and on February 13th, the fire bombing of the militarily insignificant and historic city of Dresden was carried out. Years later it is still used as an example of Allied "war crimes".

The Rhine is breached and Patton is gleeful that the Americans got there ahead of General Montgomery's British troops.

Jewish organizations and administrative staff pleaded with FDR to do something about what was happening in the death camps. He chose only to admonish Hitler and the author offers several reasons why the Allies ignored the horrific situation.

The relationship between Russia and the US was falling apart and was further exacerbated when Russia demanded to be included in the talks with Germany about the surrender in Italy. Stalin accuses the Allies of treachery and the race was on to take Berlin. Ike knows that Berlin is not longer militarily important and it does not become part of his strategy. It was left to the Russian Army which was on Berlin's doorstep and the wisdom of this decision leaves unanswered questions about the future.

[Bryan]

I think the author paints a very good picture about the fanaticism the Japanese had in fighting to the last man.

I feel the dread about invading Japan knowing how many lives are at stake. The Pacific theater is much different kind of war than Europe.

[Mark]

Bryan wrote: "The Pacific theater is much different kind of war than Europe. "

One major factor was that the Japanese in the Pacific Theater were much more ruthless to POW’s (captured Allied military personnel) than the German’s.

Holocaust victims were another issue.

[Bryan]

So true, Mark, they were.

[Peter]

Mark wrote: "Bryan wrote: "The Pacific theater is much different kind of war than Europe. "

One major factor was that the Japanese in the Pacific Theater were much more ruthless to POW’s (captured Allied milit..."

Yeah, but, again, I think that applies to *Western* Europe. The Soviet treatment of POWs was probably on a par with that of the Japanese.

[Jill]

Americans did not understand the Japanese fanaticism or the fact that surrender was not an option for them. So, indeed this was a very different war in the Pacific.

[G]

One of the anecdotes I didn't know was the kamikaze equivalent attempt by the Germans. The visual on p 485 is not one I'll soon forget "...142 Me 109s, their radios blaring patriotic music, took off intending to smash into a formation of 1300 8th Air Force bombers...The German zeal for heroic self-immolation cooled instantly"

[Bryan]

I didn't know that, either, G.

[Jill]

I was aware of it but there has been very little written about it.....or at least in the many WWII books I have read. Heroic self-immolation was not compatible with the Western thought. The Germans fought like devils and were heroic but were not of a sacrificial bent as were the kamikaze.

[Mark]

I thought the sentence: "While the president unhesitatingly made global strategic decisions, he was disinclined to second-guess his commanders on tactics." solidified the position of the commander-in-chief and Persico’s theme within his book. (pg. 493)

[G]

Mark wrote: "I thought the sentence: "While the president unhesitatingly made global strategic decisions, he was disinclined to second-guess his commanders on tactics." solidified the position of the commander-..."

Yes, even though earlier on, FDR seemed to want some local control, by this time he had confidence in his commanders. This leads me to Eisenhower's apparently unilateral (consulting Bradley, an associate, doesn't mean FDR or Marshall were consulted) decision not to push on to Berlin. I wonder if he had a handle on Stalin's imperialism, and understood the implications of the decision. Regardless, as Persico points out, the decision was practical and saved many Allied lives.

Also, I wonder if Churchill's concerns about Stalin from the start were because he understood Stalin's thirst for Empire?

Dwight D. Eisenhower
George C Marshall
Joseph Stalin
Winston Churchill
Omar Bradley

[Bryan]

I think Churchill's experiences goes back to WWI and his distrust of the Communist Party, G. Pulling out of that war was not popular and it went downhill from there.

Winston Churchill

[Bryan]

The episode about firebombing Tokyo was eye opening. The military were convinced that an invasion of Japan was needed to win, but I wonder if you used more of these types of bombs might have averted this invasion.

Nepalm was pretty horrible.

[Jill]

I think the Americans needed something huge and horrible to convince the Japanese that they must surrender. Although napalm is terrible, as we know from Vietnam, it was not a new weapon and the Japanese were not easily impressed. There probably would have had to be an invasion by Allied troops. The atomic bomb was something the world had never seen or even imagined could leave such long lasting devastation. So it was used and invasion was avoided.

[Bryan]

Good points, Jill. The atomic bomb was science fiction and now a reality. A big impression and a scary legacy.

[Jill]

The use of the bomb will forever cause controversy, especially since it was dropped on non-military targets/cities. I read somewhere that Col. Paul Tibbets, the pilot of the Enola Gay, wrote in his log, "My God, what have we done". It may be apocryphal but it seems appropriate since they had no idea exactly what would happen when the bomb detonated. It is true the "war is hell".

[Peter]

Then there is the quote from Oppenheimer (at the New Mexico explosion)

"Now I am become death, destroyer of worlds" which was a quote from his favorite translation of The Bhagavad Gita by Anonymous (I tried to edit this to add the anonymous author, but now Goodreads isn't finding it)

[Jill]

Oh dear, how very prescient. And he hadn't even seen what could happen when it was exploded over a populated area.

Don't forget the book citations, Peter. You were almost there and obviously there is no photo for an Anonymous author but we want to be consistent with guidelines.

by Anonymous (no photo)

[Peter]

Jill wrote: "Oh dear, how very prescient. And he hadn't even seen what could happen when it was exploded over a populated area.

Don't forget the book citations, Peter. You were almost there and obviously there..."

Ah. OK. I didn't know I needed a link for anonymous

[Bryan]

At Yalta, we see more and more of Stalin's entitlement, especially in German reparations. On one level you can understand, but his true colors are emerging.

Joseph Stalin

[G]

Bryan wrote: "At Yalta, we see more and more of Stalin's entitlement, especially in German reparations. On one level you can understand, but his true colors are emerging.

Joseph Stalin"

And yet Roosevelt persists in pandering to him because of Japan. Very sad.

[Bryan]

Exactly, G. But we see the veil being lifted from FDR's eyes, though, by the end of chapter 23 with trying to settle the peace in Italy.

Do you think it was a legitimate claim that if the front closed down in Italy, then troops would be sent to Russia, or was there something else there?

[Jill]

The battle of Okinawa was a bloodbath and the kamikaze had perfected its craft. Using the pride of the Japanese fleet, the Yamato, showed the defiance of the Japanese since it was a sacrificial trip with enough fuel for a one way trip. Used to draw American airplanes and then sending the kamikaze against the unprotected American ships was tactical genius if the Japanese had other carriers to continue to support their Navy. But they didn't but they did inflict the Navy's greatest loss on a single encounter of WWII. Smart move or stupid sacrifice?

[Lewis]

Page 494 mentions, "Bombing the camps." Was this an effective strategy? Did bombing the camps and Allied POWs help in shortening the war?

[Lewis]

FDR makes an agonizing statement on page 498: "Stalin has been deceiving me all along." How much did it break FDR's spirit to realize this...to recognize that winning the war was not really the end?

[Lewis]

On page 504, it states, "By taking Berlin..." Should Eisenhower have charged through to Berlin? By holding back, he demonstrated good faith to Russia and that empire building was not our motivation. Whether that made a difference is another question...

[Peter]

Lewis wrote: "On page 504, it states, "By taking Berlin..." Should Eisenhower have charged through to Berlin? By holding back, he demonstrated good faith to Russia and that empire building was not our motivation..."

While the outcome was in any doubt, we needed to keep Russia's good will. By the end, we did not. And it was (or certainly should have been) clear to all that Stalin was not interested in maintaining a postwar alliance.

The real issue, then, is whether it would be worth the sacrifice of more troops to have more of Europe controlled by the west. That is a decision I am glad I do not have to make.

[Peter]

Lewis wrote: "Page 494 mentions, "Bombing the camps." Was this an effective strategy? Did bombing the camps and Allied POWs help in shortening the war?"

Bombing the camps may not have saved a single life, directly. The Nazis were so obsessed with the final stages of their final solution, they would have rebuilt and kept on. Perhaps the effort of rebuilding rail lines or whatever would have hastened the end by some tiny amount.

But the psychology would have been immense.

Bombing the camps would have said "These are people. We defend people. We defend the people that the Nazis dehumanize.

[Bryan]

Thanks Lewis and Peter for your comments. I think author makes a good point that any territory the British and American armies made in Berlin, they would have to pull back to their respective zones.

[Bryan]

Peter, I think there would have been a psychological benefit to the bombing. Many people were losing or lost hope in the camps by then.

[Jill]

The Berlin question is tricky but I would agree that the Allies would have had to pull back to their respective zones if they got involved. Stalin was willing to sacrifice as many of his troops as necessary to crush the Germans. The depth of Stalin's feelings of revenge for the atrocities committed in Russia by the Germans knew no bounds; although it was a political move in part, it was also a move to bring final humiliation to the Nazis.