Classic Historical Fiction discussion
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Katherine
Anya Seton Group Read
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Part One: Chapter 5-8
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I found the part where she gave birth to Blanchette to be quite eerie...in fact I was really worried about what Nichola would do!
I found it creepy as well! Also, that the serfs didn't seem to care what happened to Katherine, even her personal maid. She should have called for the midwife no matter what Katherine said! The whole scene have me a cold, scary feeling.
I think the serfs saw Katherine as an interloper and blamed her (unfairly) for their having been called back into service rather than living a life relatively free of obligations and outside interference. They had few rights, remember, so life without Hugh must have seemed quite appealing. And the maid could justify her behavior, which I agree was shocking from a human perspective, by saying that she was just following orders.I did find Katherine's extreme passivity in these chapters somewhat troubling. Not her tolerance of the abysmal if rather pitiful Hugh, since she had no say there, but her putting up with the truly miserable living conditions at the manor. Even if the family had little money, they had serfs who paid rents and fines and lived close enough to Lincoln that the priest traveled there regularly and seems to have lived in greater luxury than the lord. Could she not have asked him to collect a couple of dress lengths of wool? Ordered her servants to change the moldy feathers on the bed or weave a blanket or two? Her sister (admittedly, I am a Philippa) would not and did not put up with those conditions, and she was not much older. How is it even possible that Katherine was wearing a court dress fitted to her figure when she was four or five months pregnant?
But these are quibbles. I liked the description of the manor house and how it contrasted with the court, as well as the Pessoner family, Chaucer (of course—he is one of the highlights of the book), the Lady Nichola, the poor bailiff who seems to be suffering from something close to Lou Gehrig's disease, and, yes, Katherine—even if I did want to give her a shake once in a while.
I felt the same way about all that C.P. but not until you mentioned it did I realize she had no other clothing! And I am surprised there was no upheaval after the Duke's man beat the serf to a pulp. Seriously how could one man alone have protected her from so many who could have revolted any minute. Anyway I'm really enjoying the flow of the book and am now very sad about Blanche...
Mod
:::use Spoiler tags::::
But wanted to mention I love how the snippets of characters really help define them in such a short time, such as Gibbon. The story has such as intriguing blend of characters & it is much more character driven than I had expected it to be.
Yes the characters really come alive- very descriptive and I love that. But sometimes I find that their changes in behaviour happen all of a sudden-just like that- and so I feel there's a bit of a gap there. Like with Hugh, for instance, how he's changed...
Sorry about spoiler-and I thought I was being subtle. I'll make sure to mention when it cud e a spoiler.
Mod
Love the drama & the Duke, & feisty Nirac.
Mod
Marie wrote: "In what way would you say Hugh changed? Or did that come after these chapters?"Well the way he's now allowing her to leave the house to go see Blanche for instance- and now that it seems he can no longer brutally 'take' her... This all seemed to have come about so quickly after his return and he seems to have resigned from everything- considering how violent and eruptive he always was. Hope it won't be quick character changes when it comes to more important characters along the way (such as the duke towards Katherine ..we'll see!). I hope it's a more detailed progression
I'm not saying its a bad thing abOut Hugh! It's actually a relief for Katherine I'm sure:)
I think Hugh is just much more passive because he's injured, sick and not quite sure of his position with the duke as he used to be. I think all of these factors combined, and the fact that he was never a very open person, let alone husband, contribute to his attitude as the book goes on.
Mod
I'm also finished this section :-)
Poor Gibbon, he was always one of my favorites. Lady Nichola, too. Poor Hugh. He can't win for losing. C.P., I'm so with you about wanting to give Katherine a shake once and a while, yet I can understand Seton's choice to show her as a rather clueless girl fresh from the convent. At least at first. Since Katherine (view spoiler) her education would have needed to be more esoteric than Phillipa's, whom Seton has going directly into hard, practical service with the queen. Also, Katherine spent years in a poor convent learning a spirit of self sacrifice, so I can see how she might try to make do with what she has. There was mention that during her pregnancy, the sole gown she owns was let out. And it doesn't surprise me that she wouldn't be showing much since she was so young and it was her first pregnancy. What I didn't buy was that she felt the baby move at four months and (view spoiler)
My other big gripe is that Katherine is described as being tall, but her hands are always little. And her face, too. Her poor little hands, her red little hands. Please. How many tall girls do you know with little hands? And why is Blanche so bland? And also clueless. As I'm writing this, I'm beginning to become irritated with John of Gaunt's apparent attraction to passive women. Well, no surprises there.
Okay, enough venting. You can shake me too if you want. I probably deserve it.
Off topic... How do I do that 'view spoiler' thing? I only advise of spoiler tBut didn't know u can actually do this- very cool!
It is very cool. You just type (spoiler)and then the actual spoiler and then end it with (/spoiler) but there's a little trick involved. You have to replace the () with <>. I couldn't actually demonstrate it because it would have changed my instructions into a spoiler. :)Good luck!
Kathy
Oooh Kathy, there's a while great reading of Katherine with a comparison of the passive female characters, the men they are involved with, and the active female characters. Katherine and Philippa are SO opposite in this way and sometimes it seems as though Seton is trying to communicate that love comes to those who are are stereotypically feminine: passive, delicate, classically beautiful, etc. I love that take on it!
Kathleen wrote: "It is very cool. You just type (spoiler)and then the actual spoiler and then end it with (/spoiler) but there's a little trick involved. You have to replace the () with . I couldn't actually demons..."Thanks!! Let me try that now...(view spoiler)
MaryKate wrote: "Oooh Kathy, there's a while great reading of Katherine with a comparison of the passive female characters, the men they are involved with, and the active female characters. Katherine and Philippa a..."I absolutely agree with you. Especially when it comes to Phillipa and Chaucer. You can throw Hugh in there, too. He's ugly, aggressive and therefore irredeemable. Katherine is made out to be a saint because she tolerates him. Caution, post chapter eight (view spoiler)
John, on the other hand, is handsome, aggressive,arrogant, powerful, and completely desirable. There's an old joke that the difference between sexual harassment and flirtation is attractiveness. It's funny because it's true.
Lucy, I'm so glad it worked for you. It's kind of fun. I find myself wanting to leave spoilers all over the place. :)
I'm at the part where Katherine has agreed to marry Hugh. I suspect he's going to be an abusive husband.....
I agree, Kathleen, with your comment about passive women. It becomes much stronger later, but it was already obvious to me by this point that the book, wonderfully written as it is, is basically a very, very high-class Harlequin romance with beautifully described historical trappings. But then, it was published in 1954, which means it was written ca. 1950. So it's probably not too surprising that sweet, passive Katherine, not take-charge Philippa, is the heroine.That would, of course, also have been the feminine type favored in the 1360s, by John of Gaunt and others.
It’s true, poor Hugh just can't catch a break—or even find a way to express the love he feels. But in his own way, he is just as arrogant as John. (view spoiler) So I would say he is true to his time and in the end rather pitiful, but still no hero in disguise.
C.P. wrote: "I agree, Kathleen, with your comment about passive women. It becomes much stronger later, but it was already obvious to me by this point that the book, wonderfully written as it is, is basically a ..."I agree, Hugh is definitely pitiful and he certainly takes what he wants no matter what. (view spoiler)
PS-I just learned to do spoiler tags too and it's very exciting :)
C.P., you and I are are lucky to be writing 60+ years after Anya Seton. We can enjoy and learn from her prodigious talent while being encouraged to write about strong women who are not defined by the men who desire them.As much as I wholeheartedly love this story and the way Anya Seton told it, I find myself appalled by the character shortcuts she chose to employ. I think your comparison of this story to a Harlequin romance is spot on, mostly due to those shortcuts. But, I don't mean to disparage Ms Seton or this story. I love it. It's been one of my favorite stories for forty years and will be, God willing, for forty more. I can speak for no one but myself, but this story lands me in the middle of Katherine's world and there I wish to remain.
I'm a little behind in my reading and I fear I'm missing some good discussion! My great-grandmother was a very poor girl of only 15 when she married a 30 year old man. She brought no money and no good connections. I guess she had only her youth/body to offer. She probably jumped at the chance to marry someone who would have been able to afford a house in a few years (unless her mother pushed her into the marriage, which I now realize may have occurred). They had a long and happy marriage. Makes me wonder what will happen to the characters in this book.
PLEASE USE SPOILER TAGS WHEN DISCUSSING A PLOT EVENT