Buddy read an Inspector Morse?

[Bionic Jean]

Thank you :)Sorry if any of you spotted the mistake in my previous entry before I corrected it. Perils of joining 2 groups at the same time....

[Shera]

Penny wrote: "I have finished - how is everyone else doing? I have to say it got so convoluted towards the end I thought I should sit down and write notes of times and places and people!"

I've torn myself away from the mean streets of Northern Ireland (Stuart Neville and Adrian McKinty)and returned to beautiful Oxford.
I love the way Colin Dexter uses us a typically boring office where the clerks use carbon paper on manual typewriters and introduces a brutal murder.

[Leslie]

I just picked up my copy from the library this evening, but need to finish Tinker, Tailor... first. I will be avoiding this topic until I finish so feel free to start discussing! I will catch up :P

[Portia]

NOW I know why I didn't like Last Seen Wearing as much as I thought I would. Dexter didn't use his wonderful talent for describing places as he did in Last Bus to Woodstock. Thank goodness he reanimates hs gift in The Silent World of Nicholas Quinn. The first few pages of Chapter Two are exactly what Dexter taught me to expect of him in his first book.

Still reading, not finished yet ... :-)

[Penny]

I thought this one was quite different from the previous 2 and I cant quite put my finger on why. There were a lot of similarities and I'm finding his depiction of women and Morse's attraction to them a bit repetitious - but the book felt totally different to me. The plot was far more convoluted so maybe that was what gives this feeling.
Yes Portia - his descriptions are very wry at times!

[Malcolm]

I just started Last Bus to Woodstock. I find it a delightful mystery, not too convoluted, but just enough for me to have to read sections a second time. He is an odd duck, for a copper, though. And Lewis, I know he becomes more developed as the series progresses. But I find him a bit annoying. Nonetheless, I'm enjoying it very much, and have #2 waiting in the wings!!!

[Penny]

I think overall I preferred the second one to numbers one and three - be interested to hear others opinions!

[Leslie]

Penny wrote: "I think overall I preferred the second one to numbers one and three - be interested to hear others opinions!"

Interesting! I found Morse in The Silent World... much more similar to John Thaw's character in the TV series than he was in the first two books. More sure of himself & less fumbling around. That said, he still manages to get it wrong a few times before finally solving it - I can see this as a trait which could annoy some readers but I like the fact that Morse is human and makes mistakes like the rest of us.

The final twist completely took me by surprise! I had suspected Roope almost from the first because he was the one who had insisted on Quinn's being hired. But then I thought that maybe Roope suspected Bartlett of selling exam questions and had put Quinn in in order to investigate - Dexter does a good job of being ambivalent in his descriptions of people's thoughts (is that the right word to use here?).

And Penny, I like the new icon/photo :)

[Portia]

I was so sure it was Miss Height that I put a sticky note on the last page of Chapter Seven. Got me!

I really liked the speed of the last chapters, even though I was a bit frustrated over the mistaken arrests. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I am glad Dexter returned to his excellent descriptions of Oxford.

[Poornima]

just finished the book today. I would agree with others that this seemed different than the previous books in some ways. One, i think is that Morse seemed much more confident in this book and though he made wrong guesses - he seemed to know what he was doing and seemed able to notice the gaps in his theories.

Liked the plot, had suspected Roope but not the other killer!

Also, felt this book was wrapped up better than the previous book, where i had to go back and re-read to make sure all bits were sorted out and explained.

[Penny]

I wonder if Dexter will keep Morse in this trial and error type of behaviour or whether he will give him more confidence. He is able to leap to conclusions they're just not always right!!

I felt Lewis was a bit more in the background in this one and I want him to get the girl to notice him, not have Morse getting attracted to every possible female suspect!!
I felt the writing in the setting and location side was more solid and deft as if Dexter felt, yes I've got this sussed now and so it comes out very smoothly.

[Leslie]

Just a reminder that the fourth book is Service of All the Dead.

[Poornima]

Penny, yes I also felt we saw lesser of Lewis in this book.. and all the theories were singularly formed by Morse (not actually discussion/teamwork between them - unlike the previous book) ..

[Portia]

Poornima wrote: "Penny, yes I also felt we saw lesser of Lewis in this book.. and all the theories were singularly formed by Morse (not actually discussion/teamwork between them - unlike the previous book) .."

Is this the beginning of Lewis' transformation from someone older than Morse into the Lewis we all know and love?

[Penny]

there's a thought Portia -the TV Lewis is very different isnt he? Also this Morse feels more gruff and perhaps lower class than the John Thaw version - or maybe he will get posher over time!! He is so busy drinking and blustering about I dont get much of the 'gentleman' that I got from the TV - maybe that's just my interpretation of the acting!

[Portia]

I remember Thaw's Morse drank a lot. And, in the last episode of "Endeavour" that I watched, there is a scene where Young Morse sits in a pub with a glass in front of him, hinting at the future dance with alcohol, I'm thinking.

Full disclosure, I really like "Endeavour". I feel I am growing up with him, even though I am old enough to be his mother! I see the struggles he is having with himself that will lead to the Morse we all know and are fond of (even though I still think Hathaway is a hunk!).

But, IMHO, this is the great thing of reading a series from the first book. We all grow with the recurring characters.

[Poornima]

Portia wrote: "I remember Thaw's Morse drank a lot. And, in the last episode of "Endeavour" that I watched, there is a scene where Young Morse sits in a pub with a glass in front of him, hinting at the future da..."

That's true Portia. This is first time I am reading a series in order, glad to be part of it here!

[Poornima]

One another pattern that seems to occur in the books is the secondary murder.. where one-of-the-suspects is taken by surprise and killed by someone he knows. Wonder if this continues in the subsequent books too!

[Penny]

Poornima wrote: "One another pattern that seems to occur in the books is the secondary murder.. where one-of-the-suspects is taken by surprise and killed by someone he knows. Wonder if this continues in the subsequ..."

I didnt pick up on that but you are right - we will all be eagle-eyed watching out for the recurring themes in the next one!!

[Penny]

Hope you are all still keen and still able to find this thread under 'discussions'

our september read isService of All the Dead

[Leslie]

I have started and discovered that I actually remember this episode of the TV show. So far it seems fairly different from the dramatization so I am curious to see how it turns out!

[Portia]

Still keen but haven't started reading yet.

[Bionic Jean]

I've just finished "The Silent World of Nicholas Quinn" today so am still a little behind you. But if I push the next one up my list of to-reads hopefully I will catch up.

I agree, the ending was very convoluted with Morse's different scenarios. Suddenly in the middle of the novel I thought I had remembered who the murderer was. (view spoiler)[(Bartlett - to pay for his son's treatment.) (hide spoiler)] But it wasn't him! So I have a question for someone who has the DVDs/remembers the TV adaptations very well. Did they change the ending from the book?

Or have I just got confused? :(

[Leslie]

Jean wrote: "I've just finished "The Silent World of Nicholas Quinn" today so am still a little behind you. But if I push the next one up my list of to-reads hopefully I will catch up.

I agree, the ending was..."

Jean, you can watch this episode of Morse on YouTube, the title is M(2)RSE

http://m.youtube.com/index?&deskt...

[Bionic Jean]

Thanks for this, Leslie! I guess with all the TV episodes they just simplify the plot really. I am very much in 2 minds about this series, finding Colin Dexter so much of a misogynist. Here's the review I've just written of
The Silent World of Nicholas Quinn
where I explain what I mean in more detail. What does everyone else feel?

[Poornima]

That's a nice review, Jean. Oh yes, Morse's attitude towards women does get annoying! But I wonder if this trait was deliberate attempt (among others) - in making Morse seem humane and ordinary with vices.

I liked the "Silent world.." slightly better than "Last seen wearing.." And after reading "Silent World.." I did google-up to find out Morse's first name :D

[Poornima]

Penny wrote: "Hope you are all still keen and still able to find this thread under 'discussions'

our september read isService of All the Dead"

Am planning to start this next week, Penny.

[Bionic Jean]

Poorinama - thank you! I agree that Dexter deliberately makes Morse have vices. But when the author himself also seems to be so judgemental about women it rankles with me! I try to tell myself that it is the voice of the narrator, but so often I think it is the same thing.

When these novels first came out I remember it was a really big deal that we didn't know his first name! (Now, of course, we all know already.) Colin Dexter only revealed it right at the end of the series, and I seem to remember publishers and newspapers being sworn to silence so as not to spoil the surprise!

I hope to start "Service of All the Dead" before the weekend, ready to discuss after 15th.

[Penny]

I am running a bit late on this one but hope to get it completed next week - it will be good to see what we think of this one and to look out for similarities of plot and method. Surely there should be a sassy, strong woman who adores Lewis!!!!

[Portia]

Not in the 1970s, Penny! :-). Those women were just being born then. And here they are today, thank goodness!

[Penny]

Portia wrote: "Not in the 1970s, Penny! :-). Those women were just being born then. And here they are today, thank goodness!"

you brought a smile to my face!! very true!!!

[Bionic Jean]

Hey now Penny and Portia - I like to think I was a sassy and strong woman in the 70's! I remember having an argument with my bank manager about my right to have a monthly bank statement for MY bank account. The dinosaur wanted to know why I needed it more often than once every 3 months! Said bank manager had a hissy fit when I insisted my cheque book say Ms. not Mrs...

There were quite a lot of us around you know; The Women's Liberation Front it was called then.

That's why I take such exception to Dexter's portrayals, as for the early part of the 70's I actually lived in the centre of Oxford itself, so I know firsthand that his portrayals of women from that time and place are just unrepresentational.

[Bionic Jean]

By the way, I am enjoying "Service of all the Dead" more than the previous 3. What does anyone else think?

[Portia]

I think I'd better get busy reading it or I am going to miss all the fun!

[Penny]

yes Jean - the women's movement had been around a long time by the 70's and I smiled to hear of your bank saga! I think Portia was reflecting the fact that the men in the world - too sweeping generalisation I know - were playing catch up. Dexter definitely seems old fashioned now but I wonder if we had read them at the time if we would have found it a true reflection.
I read a Peter Robinson book a while back and I found that much the same but I dont have the same fondness - and therefore leeway - for Banks as I do for Morse. His book was late 70's or early 80's.
Little snippets often appear that we wouldnt tolerate now - like Mrs Clarke being reminded to wash up the headmaster's glass etc.
When I was a student nurse in the mid 80's one of the consultants would come around with his entourage, after the ward round, he would expect the most junior nurse ie often me, to make cups of tea for them all. Well, one day I just said no!! I told him I had plenty of work to do and he knew where the kettle was - I was sort of laughing at him and he was smiling - but he got the point and never asked me again. I thought the sister of the ward would tell me off but she nodded her approval!!

[Bionic Jean]

Penny - very well said! I had been thinking that Dexter got it wrong, but your nursing anecdote proves that these "old-school" males were still around a decade later, though thankfully in the minority. (You were very brave, by the way, weren't you? It's not always easy challenging someone higher in the pecking order than you.) Working in Education was not too bad from the point of view of prejudice. I do remember one interview getting annoyed because I was asked what would happen "when the children came along." And I did tend to envy males their muscles when I was pushing my piano around. (Never could stomach the "poor little me" bit.)

So maybe it's not anachronistic, just that Dexter himself was rather more reactionary than I'd hoped. (And it is Dexter, I feel, not Morse!) The danger is that youngsters of today tend to use novels such as these as their reference to what life was actually like. Decades become merged together - the 50's, 60's and 70's all become one - and what results is a travesty of the times with no nuances. I get so sick of TV dramatisations of life in the 70's where women are shown as downtrodden, and today's young females enlightened and powerful....

But this is not the place to discuss post-feminism and the traps (obsessive self-image for one) today's young females are ensnared by, so I won't.

Sorry to have got off the tracks a bit. Happily there are indications in "Service of all the Dead" that Morse is becoming a bit more enlightened, so presumably Dexter himself had begun to observe social trends a bit more closely.

[Portia]

I've had a variation of each of your experiences! If someone opened a thread dedicated to comparing women's experiences through the eyes of male authors in the 20th Century, I would love to type on for pages!

[Portia]

Here is a quick PS. I read scads of Romance novels on the 1980s, all written by women, all having the heroine being rescued in some way or another by the hero. No Lucy Liu (Charlie's Angels; Elementary) in sight.

[Penny]

is the Ruth Rawlinson character rather similar to a woman in the other books? I cant remember names but I thought someone else was stuck with an invalid mother. And the Morris guy seemed very similar to the teacher in the previous book who ran off to Wales - correct me if I have remembered wrong!

[Leslie]

Penny wrote: "is the Ruth Rawlinson character rather similar to a woman in the other books? I cant remember names but I thought someone else was stuck with an invalid mother. And the Morris guy seemed very simi..."

I don't recall another woman who was caring for her invalid mother but it was that which triggered my recall of the TV episode... maybe that is what you are remembering also?

Morris does seem a bit similiar to the teacher who moved to Wales in Last Seen Wearing...

Overall, I liked this one the least of the four we have read so far. I found the plot too convoluted. On the other hand, I liked Morse best in this - his character is much more positive, hardly any fumbling and less self-doublt and questioning.

I will stick my neck out and say that I haven't felt that Morse or Dexter have been misogynist. Sure, descriptions of women include details about their 'bedworthiness' but I think that is how (many if not most) men actually think. It may not be PC to say so outright nowadays but I would be extremely surprised if these thoughts were not still present. Morse doesn't generally say these things out loud, even to Lewis, and I don't see how his actions in Nicholas Quinn were sexist in any way.

[Penny]

Leslie wrote: "Penny wrote: "is the Ruth Rawlinson character rather similar to a woman in the other books? I cant remember names but I thought someone else was stuck with an invalid mother. And the Morris guy se..."

interesting view Leslie - I think what strikes me in each book is that Morse finds those women involved in the crime attractive. He is always partially falling for them and obviously not getting them!! Lewis on the other hand, doesnt seem interested or sexually attracted to any of the characters and we know he has the indomitable Mrs L at home. Morse also seems to me to be quite assured of his own worth to women - he always seems sure they will fancy him too!
I too am finding the plots quite convoluted. I had to keep replaying in my head who was where and who did what and even now I have finished I am not sure I could describe to another person what exactly happened in what sequence. I found that slightly in Nicholas Quinn but more in this one. I didnt get the bit of Harry Josephs not being the first killed - I guess you could say I lost the plot on several occasions!!!!!!! Perhaps its because the books are fairly short and so its a lot of changes to take in over only a few paragraphs - then it all changes again and the previous idea hasnt really 'sunk in' yet (at least for me!!)
While the plots are getting very twisting I am also finding it slightly formulaic in that I expected mistaken identity and misleading witnesses. I hope reading a whole series wont detract my initial enjoyment of this as these types of things are far more noticeable.

[Bionic Jean]

I've finished "Service of all the Dead" now and my review is here

Penny - if you read the last para of my review, unhiding the spoiler, it says who was killed by whom!

But I'm still confused by "Nicholas Quinn's" ending. Who was the other murderer apart from (view spoiler)[Roope? (hide spoiler)] Help, please, somebody!

Leslie - I agree Morse is less misogynistic in this one. Maybe someone had had a word with Colin Dexter!

[Leslie]

Jean wrote: "...But I'm still confused by "Nicholas Quinn's" ending. Who was the other murderer apart from..."

Jean - (view spoiler)[Roope's partner in crime, both in the murder and in the cheating on exams, turned out to be Donald Martin. This was the final twist that really surprised me, as I had assumed that his shifty behavior was due to his extra-marital affair with Monica! (hide spoiler)]

[Bionic Jean]

Thank you Leslie. That is extraordinary as I'm sure in the TV version they made it (view spoiler)[ Dr Bartlett, because he needed the money for his son's treatment (hide spoiler)]

It looks as if I'll have to read that whole ending again as I seem to have missed it somehow!

EDIT - much much later! Have finally rewatched the episode, and they followed the plot quite carefully, so I clearly misremembered that!

[Leslie]

Jean wrote: "Thank you Leslie. That is extraordinary as I'm sure in the TV version they made it [spoilers removed]

It looks as if I'll have to read that whole ending again as I seem to have missed it somehow!"

That was one of the theories (and the one I thought it was going to be!).

[Bionic Jean]

Maybe I dropped off to sleep before the end! hahaha

I really enjoyed this latest one though and am now looking forward to the next.

[Poornima]

have just started last night :) Hope to finish by weekend!

[Bionic Jean]

Look forward to reading your thoughts Poornima. I really enjoyed it. :)

[Elizabeth]

John Thaw was the best. I know it is months later but think I will start reading Collin Dexter's books too.

[Elizabeth]

Does anyone know more about John Thaw? Suppose I could google him.