Week 9.1 -- Mynheer Peeperkorn (Continued)

[Everyman]

Sorry I'm late posting this week -- just got back from America. (Which is what we in the islands call the mainland.)

"It is not by accident that we have chosen to associate with minds like those of Messrs Naphta and Settembrini, instead of surrounding ourselves with vague Peeperkorns..."

Vague, but also, for me at least, a welcome relief form the seemingly endless arguments of N and S.

HC's discussion with MP certainly doesn't have the philosophical elevation of his discourses with S and N, but MP seems to open up more to him as a person than S or N ever did.

Certainly neither S nor N ever called HC brother, or welcomed his using the informal pronoun, which I gather was a quite significant sign of a close personal relationship. And MP saw into HC's love life much more than S or N ever did.

What, then, is the role that MP is intended to play in this battle for the mind and soul of HC?

[Thorwald]

Settembrini clearly recognizes Mynheer Peeperkorn: As a danger, driven by emotions, only, someone having success independently of his arguments. Arguments are of no use, here, whether right or wrong. And Settembrini steps at the side of Naphta under the impression of this "Asiatic" danger. Peeperkorn is called "dancing heathen priest".

Several words are used for Peeperkorn: king, ruler.
While others think, Peeperkorn rules.

Peeperkorn talks lenghty on snake poisons. What an "intelligent" topic ... very "human". Peeperkorn wants an eagle, animal of pride and independence (not literally said but meant), to kill its prey, blood may flow as nature wants it, well ...

Compare the following words of Hitler: "Look at these young men and boys! What material. With them I can make a new world. My teaching will be hard. Weakness will be knocked out of them. A violently active, dominating, brutal youth – that is what I am after. Youth must be indifferent to pain. There must be no weakness and tenderness in it. I want to see once more in its eyes the gleam of pride and independence of the beast of prey. I will have no intellectual training. Knowledge is ruin to my young men."

Emotion is everything, intellect is nothing.

PS: Even not national socialist "knowledge", what may surprise, just the wild beast ...

[[deleted user]]

Thorwald notes that S. is on to Peeperkorn. He then extrapolates to Hitler as charismatic leader. Fair enough. But reflecting on this and on the comments about Bill Clinton in another thread (sorry, I am totally confused by the multiple threads and can't keep them straight ;) )I went back to S's actual words.

"By turning personality into an enigma, you run the danger of idol worship. You are venerating a mask. You see something mystical where there is only mystification, one of those hollow counterfeits with which the demon of corporeal physiognomy enjoys taunting us on occasion."

HC shows us he is gaining maturity with his comment on this. "For people to be actors, they must have talent, and talent is something that goes beyond stupidity and cleverness, it is itself a value for life. Mynheer Peeperkorn has talent too, no matter what you say, and he uses it to put us in his pocket."

I once read a management book that argued that no leader can be fully authentic. All must wear various masks at various times. I was encouraged to see that HC seems aware of this. I hope it will influence his behavior going forward.

(view spoiler)[ I fear it will not. (hide spoiler)]

[Thorwald]

Zeke wrote: "I once read a management book that argued that no leader can be fully authentic. All must wear various masks at various times."

... does Mynheer Peeperkorn wear a mask? He lives fully to his emotions ... maybe he makes the impression precisely because of this?

My personal experience with masks is that you tend to melt with them, in best case a mask helps you to grow into a role which develops your personality, where the mask is no longer a mask but you yourself with developed personality. In worst case you "grow" to a monster of so-called "social competence", or your personality splits in two.

If Hans Castorp wants to point to this best case, then I agree: Masks can help.

IMHO Mynheer Peeperkorn grew to a monster of "emotional competence", too much emotions, too less thought. He could be manager in our times! Hey, he *is* indeed a successful manager of a coffee plantation! *laughing*

IMHO Hitler tended to realize the second type of worst case: His personality split in two; in few clear moments he realized that he only pretended to be a wise leader but he knew that in reality he had no wisdom. Hitler was wearing a mask before himself, most of the time.

PS: I remember Plato, his question: Who is the better man? He, who can betray, or he, who cannot betray, even if he wanted? Answer: He who can betray is the better man because he has an ability which the other does not have (but of course he should not use this competence in evil way).

[Thomas]

Thorwald wrote: "Zeke wrote: "I once read a management book that argued that no leader can be fully authentic. All must wear various masks at various times."

... does Mynheer Peeperkorn wear a mask? He lives fully..."

Mann describes him that way --

"The eyes gazed out pale and dull from under the idol-like tracery of the brow; the large ragged lips hung half-open, like the mouth on the mask of tragedy."

The description of MP is so repetitively uniform -- pale eyes, white flames of hair, idol-like brow, ragged lips -- that it seems very mask-like to me. But it doesn't seem like a mask to hide behind. It seems like the mask is really who he is. An enigma.

[Kathy]

Thomas wrote: "The description of MP is so repetitively uniform -- pale eyes, white flames of hair, idol-like brow, ragged lips -- that it seems very mask-like to me."

Thomas, this is very helpful. The "ragged lips," in particular, were really beginning to annoy me, but this is a convincing explanation of why Mann might be describing MP using exactly the same words each time. We've seen him do this with other characters as well--how many times have we heard the same description of Clavdia's eyes?--which makes me wonder who else might be wearing a mask...

[Kathy]

Thorwald wrote: "Peeperkorn talks lenghty on snake poisons. What an "intelligent" topic ... very "human"."

I was struck by the fact that MP speaks most "coherently" (Mann's word--or Woods's) about medicines and poisons. Seemed chilling, even sinister to me.

[Lily]

Kathy wrote: "Thorwald wrote: "Peeperkorn talks lenghty on snake poisons. What an "intelligent" topic ... very "human"."

I was struck by the fact that MP speaks most "coherently" (Mann's word--or Woods's) about medicines and poisons. Seemed chilling, even sinister to me...."

(view spoiler)[
Only later do we realize this powerful bit of foreshadowing. (hide spoiler)]

[Lily]

Kathy wrote: "...The "ragged lips," in particular, were really beginning to annoy me..."

Another case where I wondered at the original language. Also, how to visualize "ragged lips."

Here is a photo of Gerhart Hauptmann, on whose physical features M.P. is supposedly based:



Gerhart Johann Robert Hauptmann received the Nobel in literature in 1912; it was 1929 before Thomas Mann received his. When receiving the award, Hauptmann was 50; Mann was 54. Hauptmann was about 12 1/2 years older than Mann. I don't know when Mann wrote his brother about hobnobbing with Hauptmann.

http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prize...

[Thorwald]

Lily wrote: "Here is a photo of Gerhart Hauptmann"

And here are two photos of ... errrr ... :-)

(view spoiler)[
In rather a low voice he said: "Ladies and gentlemen. Very well. Very well indeed. Very. Settled. But will you keep in mind, and—not for one moment—not one moment—lose sight of the fact—but no more. On this point not another word. What is incumbent upon me to say is not so much—it is in the first place simply this: it is our duty—we lie under a solemn—an inviolable No! No, ladies and gentlemen! It was not thus—it was not thus that I—how mistaken to imagine that I—quite right, ladies andgentlemen! Settled. Let us drop the subject. I feel we understand each other, and now—to the point!" (Lowe-Porter performed better, here)





(hide spoiler)]

[Lily]

Thorwald wrote: "Lily wrote: "Here is a photo of Gerhart Hauptmann"

And here are two photos of ... errrr ... :-)"

We really should stay with our guidelines of avoiding current politics, but you may find this of interest (a number of us may remember receiving the hoax email during election days), including the 2006 Simonton study results:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Pre...

(view spoiler)[ Not that intelligence is necessarily a protection against stupidity. (hide spoiler)]

[Thorwald]

Lily wrote: "U.S. Presidential IQ hoax"

This gives me the opportunity to add that Hitler - contrary to popular belief - did not like IQ tests. He called them "jewish tests" because they were developed by jewish scientists and jews often got high scores.

Contrary to popular belief Hitler did *not* think that the master race was better in terms of intelligence - he thought they were better in feeling and "character", more trustworthy, straightforward, ready to take action, etc. etc., what clearly reminds to Mynheer Peeperkorn. And the Jews were not disliked because they were considered silly or unproductive, but because having allegedly the wrong feelings, being of "cold rationality" or the like, i.e. being "not human" as Mme Chaucat says of Settembrini. (It reminds me of believers who ask how someone can dare to approach the Bible/Quran in terms of historical thinking - "how can he dare ... does he not have feelings of religious awe?")

If I am not mistaken there was a political discussion during Clinton's presidency in the US about the "bell curve", i.e. distribution of intelligence and its inheritance and politial consequences (we Germans recently had a similar discussion about the book of Thilo Sarrazin which was widely misunderstood in many ways, truth is so complicated ... *sigh*). Important is to understand: *This* was exactly *not* Hitler's cup of tea. Everyone who says: "How can you dare to ask for intelligence, this is not human" - is closer to Hitler than he imagines.

I imagine that Settembrini would say: If it is real we have to talk about it - because we want build a good society for everybody.

[Lily]

I haven't stayed current with it, but some of the recent brain research has been exploring the relationship of "feeling" and "thought" in humans. It is definitely research worth following, or at least noting from time to time. Culture is certainly a factor as to what is ascribed as a "thought" versus a "feeling" or vice versa in so many specific situations. One book that looks thoughtfully at the feeling side of the equation is Nonviolent Communication: A Language of Life by Marshall B. Rosenberg.

One book published in 1994 that generated considerable discussion (U.S.?) on the role and impact of intelligence in society was The Bell Curve by Richard J. Herrnstein and Charles Murray. It was unfortunate Herrnstein died before it had been fully vetted. Daniel Coleman published Emotional Intelligence in 1996.

[Everyman]

When HC kissed Clavdia on the forehead at MP's deathbed, I had forgotten a passage I just found skimming my notes on this section, where, late in the conversation between HC and CC, CC says that perhaps she brought MP to Davos in order to have a good person (HC) on her side, she then kisses him on the mouth. After that, doesn't the kiss on the forehead seem a bit tame? What did he mean by that kiss?

[Everyman]

I felt so sad for HC when, in his conversation with MP, he says "There is not much about me to love."

[[deleted user]]

HC's eulogy for M. struck me. "He was a man of such stature that, for him, the failure of feeling in the face of life was a cosmic catastrophe, a divine disgrace."

A few thoughts:

The HC of earlier in the book would never make an observation of this type.

I am not sure that the evidence supports the statement.

Frankly, I am not sure I really know what the statement means.

Last, I notice another of Mann's characteristic use of oxymorons. In this case, "divine disgrace." (Another example, from "The Great Stupor:" "Hans Castorp looked around him and what he saw was uncanny and malicious. And he knew what it was he saw: life without time, life without care or hope , life as a stagnating hustle-bustle of depravity, dead life."

Reading them together, I wonder if the two quotes aren't expressing a similar type of despair.

[Thorwald]

Arrrgh, please no spoilers! Thx :-)

Everyman wrote: "When HC kissed Clavdia on the forehead at MP's deathbed, ..."

Zeke wrote: " (Another example, from "The Great Stupor:" ........"

[Lily]

Everyman wrote: "...CC says that perhaps she brought MP to Davos in order to have a good person (HC) on her side, she then kisses him on the mouth. After that, doesn't the kiss on the forehead seem a bit tame? What did he mean by that kiss? ..."

Don't know what Hans "meant", but it seemed to me that Cluadia's kiss had been her instigation. But, this kiss on Claudia's forehead is sort of closure of a circle -- Hans can acknowledge his caring for Claudia in the "presence" of M.P. (the loyal valet rolling his eyes was a nice authorial touch) -- but at another level, it is probably all over romantically between H&C and they will now be able to go their own ways.

Perhaps the paragraph on p.713 following the Russian kiss is insightful on the ambiguity of love expressed in these exchanges.

See also 206ff here: (view spoiler)[http://books.google.com/books?id=AgbS... (hide spoiler)]

Although I don't think (didn't feel?) these particular passages would need to be otherwise, as I read M.M., I find myself asking how would M.M. be different if the conversations and knowledge of this 21st century about human sexuality had been present at the time Mann wrote. Ironically, I don't find myself wanting the historical setting about the approach of WWI or about the treatment of tuberculous being updated.

[Sue]

@ Lily regarding post 9: Thank you for the photo of Gerhart Hauptmann. I can certainly see a bit of Clinton (appearance wise) in him actually.
Also, as to recent (and not so recent) brain research, as to emotion and its relationship to thought, such is quite intertwined. My grandfather Papez (when he was a professor and researcher at Cornell) conceived the "mechanism of emotion" /theory of the emotional brain (i.e. Papez Circuit Theory/ limbic system structure) in 1937 and since then more detailed study evidences the greater complexity/interrelationship of the brain and thinking, etc.. Certainly the area (e.g. hippocampus) important to memory also has emotional function, thus why we recall things received with strong emotion well. In other words, the function of emotion is (of course) part and parcel of the brain...and here in contrast to pure reasoned arguments of S, M.P. is the purveyor of emotional emphasis. True humanity has a mixture of both but emotions are mighty powerful indeed. (giving power to M.P. and even over shadowing S, for e.g.)
In this chapter, M.P. does extoll specifically the benefits of quinine thus we may assume he suffers from (recurrent) malaria (and there was mention of his liver (and kidney) wherein the protists initially travel via blood (after mosquito bite) to mature and reproduce and then enter the new blood cells to further reproduce,etc., etc.. Certainly M.P.'s jaundice ( yellow skin) is mentioned. That may be neither here nor there and I am not a physician so take the above with a grain of salt.

[Lily]

Sue wrote: "My grandfather Papez (when he was a professor and researcher at Cornell) conceived the "mechanism of emotion" /theory of the emotional brain (i.e. Papez Circuit Theory/ limbic system structure) in 1937 and since then more detailed study evidences the greater complexity/interrelationship of the brain and thinking, etc.. ..."

Sue -- your Grandfather's own Wiki entry says it needs someone to expand it. Sidebar: Wiki needs more female contributors?? (I went looking for the Papez Circuit article; it had a photo of another researcher.)

[Thorwald]

Sue wrote: "@ Lily regarding post 9: Thank you for the photo of Gerhart Hauptmann. I can certainly see a bit of Clinton (appearance wise) in him actually. ..."

Aaaahh, you made my day :-)

Nice article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papez_ci...

[Thorwald]

I want to draw your attentions to the parallel structure of this chapter:

First,
- Hans Castorp and Mme Chauchat talk to each other.
- HC gives a self-confession, why he is still on the mountain.
- Mme Chauchat asks if it is allowed to talk in this way of Mynheer Peeperkorn.
- HC and Mme Chauchat make friendship.

Then,
- Hans Castorp and Mynheer Peeperkorn talk to each other.
- HC gives another self-confession, why he is still on the mountain.
- Mynheer Peeperkorn asks if it is allowed to talk in this way of Mme Chauchat.
- HC and MP make friendship.

Mme Chauchat says in addition:
- She is subjected to a man of format like Mynheer Peeperkorn.
- Mynheer Peeperkorn makes she frightened, sometimes.
- Maybe she came back to the mountain because of HC.
- She wants HC as a good man at her side.
- A real kiss :-)

Mynheer Peperkorn:
- Self-confession: Emotion, feeling, is all.

[Everyman]

Thorwald wrote: "I want to draw your attentions to the parallel structure of this chapter:

First,
- Hans Castorp and Mme Chauchat talk to each other.
- HC gives a self-confession, why he is still on the mountain...."

Great point!

[Thorwald]

Everyman wrote: "..."

A better title for this chapter would have been: Self-confessions

HC confesses why he stays on the mountain, and he confesses his love to Mme Chauchat. Mme Chauchat in turn confesses that she maybe came back to the mountain because of HC and that she is sometimes frightened before MP. And MP finally confesses that he has emotions and feelings as his religion, so to say.