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Indie Authors: A Few Questions, please!
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@Lou: I just joined the group and I haven't read the entire discussion yet but I hope you'll forgive me a little input on your last comment:It's absolutely true that the stigma surrounding indie authors still exists to a certain extent and that's why if you want to stand out you need to put out a professional product. That being said I'd like to add that a copyeditor is a must. Other types of editors - yes, with a strong group of beta-readers they can be skipped, but a copyeditor is always a must. If you want to avoid the "non-professional" look you need to have an error-free book.
Also - you absolutely need a top-notch cover. The sad truth is that when it comes to ebooks readers do judge them by their cover to a big extent so going with a simple or a pre-made cover is not the smartest thing to do, marketing-wise.
I could be wrong of course, but that's just how I see things. :)
Yordan, for definition purposes, when you say "copyeditor" I'm assuming you mean "proofreader"? As in, someone who carefully checks for any errors both grammatically and visually (ie spelling, punctuation, extra spaces, etc)?
Well, yeah. No amount of reading, reading-out-loud, MS or friend's reviews can rid you of all mistakes every book inevitably has. :) As Lou said - it's the hardest part if you don't want to look like an amateur.
For me proofreading (I know it as copyediting, but I'm not native so never mind me), cover design and translation (since I'm not a native english speaker and don't write in english) are the three things that absolutely have to be done by a professional. Everything else you can/should accomplish by yourself or with the help of friends.
And again - sorry if this has already been covered, I just don't have the time to go through all posts and decided to chime in anyway. :)
That's fine, Yordan, the more the merrier! :) Thanks
Lou said: "It's true, self-publishing costs money and there's no guarantee you'll make any of it back. However, many readers have a strong bias against self-published authors because of the profusion of half-baked books. If you want to stand out you need to put out a professional product.There are many ways to cut costs, but they all take extra time and effort. ... Proof reading is probably the hardest to do yourself."
Mick wrote: "Thanks Lou, you`re a superstar. I`ve checked the link and am considerably more confused than when I started. I shall revert to my usual hit and miss technique and see where I end up. Someone will r..."It's good to know some people are still willing to bleed for their art!
Mick,If you need any specific help with the interior formatting, feel free to ask me questions. I (somewhat crazily) actually enjoy the challenge of formatting, and I'd be happy to help any way I can.
Suzie are you admitting you are ocd? ;)
Maybe just a little bit... :) Not really, but I am certainly a perfectionist. I've been working with a couple authors recently on paperback formatting, and they've let me have fun with it... drop caps, chapter heading art, and the like. Finding subtle ways to make a work stand out visually (without distracting from the story itself) allows me to unleash my creativity a bit more than proofreading.
Joel wrote: "Mick wrote: "Thanks Lou, you`re a superstar. I`ve checked the link and am considerably more confused than when I started. I shall revert to my usual hit and miss technique and see where I end up. S..."LOL!
Warneke wrote: "I have a few questions for Indie Authors who might be so kind as to answer them..."1. I start with my beta readers - a core group of friends, family, and random volunteers met along the way - whose opinions about story, plot, characters, continuity, etc. are qualified and whom I can trust to be honest when something I've written isn't working for them.
Then the manuscript goes to a professional editor, and I wouldn't dream of not using one. Not only are her experience and eyes invaluable, the benefits directly translate to more favorable reviews and happier readers. Some book reviewers won't even consider reading your book unless it's been professionally edited (by someone other than you).
2. There's not much I can't do decently well myself, but it's definitely worth paying for what's left - a second editor, a cover artist, a graphic designer (not necessarily the same person).
3. Yes. Don't pay for reviews (there are better ways to spend your oh-so-limited marketing budget), unless you're at the point where a major brick-and-mortar chain is willing to stock your book in stores if you obtain a favorable review from a traditional, long-established & reputable major reviewer.
4. Low rates + trustworthy results (including turnaround time).
Judah wrote: "Book Cover Crowdsourcing, Round 2Please participate in the second round of my book cover crowdsourcing project, inviting you to use the democratic process help me pick the best possible book cove..."
Judah, do you have any idea what this conversation thread is even about??
Judah wrote: "My understanding is that this group is for indie authors to support one another in diverse ways. Am I mistaken?"You are correct about the group, but wrong regarding this specific conversation. Off-topic self-promotion is a reportable offense. Please take the time to *read* the conversation you're joining, and don't spam!
I'm curious to know whether you mean a proofreader that will critique a book or just hunt down typos and grammatical errors. 1) Friends/family - 3, one after the after. I didn't feel that I could trust one person to pick all the mistakes. Also, when it was done, I read it again. Just because someone is charging you a fee, don't think that you will necessarily be getting a 100% squeaky clean product. The self-publishing service industry is 'all care and no responsibility' so do the final proof read yourself. You're the one taking responsibility for it. By the time I had finished writing it, I knew every detail of the book anyway. Some writers have first drafts that are unreadable. We're all different on that one.
2) I felt my method was better, and I think I have been proven right. It was free and it worked. Despite the fee and the expertise behind the opinion, I may outright disagree with that person anyway. If I am paying someone to critique my writing style and broader story ideas then I want someone who is very familiar with the genre I am in and understands potential reader expectations. A lot of people that offer critique services are a jack of all trades but a master of none.
3) I would assume it is done quite a lot, but I didn't do this myself. This would apply to an author who wants a critique as well as an error check.
4) I would only pay someone to proofread my book if it was purely for spelling and grammar mistakes and if they could give me some sort of guarantee that I wouldn't have to proofread it again myself or give it to someone I actually trust. As for critique and line editing, some editors have rules that they like to apply to anything they are given. In my opinion, the fastest way to achieve mediocrity in a subjective field is to follow the rules decreed by others. "No more than one comma per sentence." "No state of being verbs". If some of these people had their way, A Tale of Two Cities would have started with the line 'Good times, bad times'.
As at least one other person has mentioned, it's a question of return of investment. This applies to just about every other service being charged out there. Amazon description writing, cover design, book trailer production, even the drawing of fantasy world maps. Are people charging authors for this because there's a definite financial return, or because people are just willing to pay for anything they think might help them out. ... but that's a topic of a separate discussion.
On the topic of reviews, review sites charge for them because they can. Not because they offer a return of investment. Very few do.
Mr. Wootton wrote: "Some book reviewers won't even consider reading your book unless it's been professionally edited (by someone other than you)."Interesting, I didn't know this.
Thank you for your comments, Blair. Good stuff!
Good discussion. I would just add that having critical readers is the most painful and necessary aspect of becoming a great writer--the best writer you can be. However you find them, keep looking until you do. This is where those of you who use Return on Investment formulas are going to get all muddled up, because the PROCESS of getting good criticism is priceless in making you a good writer. It isn't limited to typos and grammar...and you don't need to agree with one single word they say. But you do need to make yourself think their thought for a few minutes and understand what they are driving at. Let it bother you for a few days and think about what it says to your work. Then either fix it in your very own way, or don't, but you will now be a little better writer for having had the advantage of that good reader's view of your work. After you do this countless times you will realize how your work is maturing and becoming more solidly crafted. Until you do this work you don't notice how immature your own work is. Good critiques enlarge your own view of your work and make it more universally appealing.
Warneke wrote: "I have a few questions for Indie Authors who might be so kind as to answer them.1. When you get close to publishing, who reviews/edits/proofreads your writing first? Professionals, friends, or a c..."
1. I am the primary editor and proofreader. The secondary reader and editor and proofreader is my wife. Luckily, we are both professional editors. The third tier are people who read my e-books and find errors or have questions. Indie publishing is a state in which the world is my editor. E-books can be changed almost instantly; ditto with books published through CreateSpace and other POD platforms. Just don't make the mistake of ordering a zillion copies of the paper edition right off the bat.
2. No professional help--except for myself and my wife. No dough, Joe, and I have read books that have had "professional" editing or proofing and still contained errors. Now that's another topic worth discussing. How can one find a truly good editor? I mean, anyone can say (and even think) they are editors. And truthfully, many indie authors can be fooled into thinking that their book has been edited or proofed well.
3. Yes. Types of free readers are common and, from what I can tell, are virtually worthless. As it happens, I am a Mark's List formatter--listed on he Smashwords site--who sees many Indie manuscripts. I also purchase indie e-books for my own reading pleasure. One story I particularly liked contained literally hundreds of typos (a credit to the author's storytelling ability that I didn't trash it after page one). I pointed out these errors and she changed them, telling me that she has several volunteer readers that had read her book and none found any errors at all. Hint: using family members as readers (unless they are professional editors and proofreaders) is like having no readers at all.
4. Unfortunately, the only thing that would tempt me to try a pro proofreader would be a free reading. If it turned out to be fruitful--that is, if a substantial number of errors were found after my final read-through--I would consider paying for the service on my next book.
Celeste wrote: "Just an FYI, and if you can spare the extra cash, using Folium Book Studio was a godsend for me! I paid around $35-$40 per book and they format it for me & I get a copy for Kindle, Nook, Kobo, an e..."Because Indie e-books are (and should be) in a state of flux, a single error that you or someone else finds down the road might tempt you to want to upload a new version. I have done this more than once. With the method you outline above, you would have to go back to Folium, ask them to make your change, and then upload the resulting file six more times. You will (and should be) charged a few for this and you have had to spend more time than you should uploading. And they you might find another error down the road . . . Using Smashwords, you distribute to all the above except Amazon. So you have only two files to upload instead of six.
My suggestion: If you use sites such as Folium, ask them for a final Word document file that you can change yourself, then convert that to an Amazon Kindle book using several simple methods.
It would also be interesting to me to know how long your books are. The fee you mention above is almost too low to be true.
As for the formatting process ... If you're on Mac, download and learn to use Scrivener. It has a 30 day free demo and I've learnt how to use it and uploaded updated mobi files to Amazon without using up 3 or 4 of those free days. Here's the link to wear I found it. http://www.thebookdesigner.com/2013/0...
I'm not affiliated to them in any way. In fact if you read the comments, you'll see that I got very frustrated with it. But once you get over that learning curve, it's worth the freedom of being able to edit and upload as you go. Most professional ebook formatters are just people who know how to use one more piece of software than you. It comes down to that old expression. "Teach a man to fish, and you won't be able to sell him your over priced fish anymore."
Sara Wrote: "I would just add that having critical readers is the most painful and necessary aspect of becoming a great writer--the best writer you can be. However you find them, keep looking until you do. This is where those of you who use Return on Investment formulas are going to get all muddled up, because the PROCESS of getting good criticism is priceless in making you a good writer."OMG Sara! I could not agree with you more!!
P.V. Excellent points! I agree. I have proofread several manuscripts that were supposedly "proofread/edited" already. Still found errors. However, I'm one of those people who find errors in NY Times bestsellers, so no editor is perfect, I guess.
Blair & Lou, more good stuff! This discussion is really helpful.
Lou said: "Personally, I can't see how anyone can do without a proofreader. This is the hardest thing to do yourself. It's not so hard to find a reasonably priced proof reader and it's worth the money."<3 :)
This is an awesome discussion! "Thank You!" to the contributors that talked about formatting services. I HATE formatting, and the price looks just right. Done, and done!I will admit here that I chose to forgo the "copyediting" on my first publication. I had read my work first page to last three times with a month break between each and was pretty sure I was good to go. Someone(I think Joel - seems like someone else also) mentioned reader feedback pointing out errors and I was embarrassed.
Even though I don't know if I will ever make any serious money, I have decided that I will spend the money for copyediting. If nothing else than the "family honor" that my Aunt seemed intent on protecting when she sent me a thoroughly edited copy of my work.
Since then I have been investing the funds. I want to do quality work if nothing else, so I am considering it a "cost of publishing".
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Yes, Suzie.