Wondering what gives someone the right to assume one person's struggle is less than another's...

[[deleted user]]

Was recently reading an online article about Lucy Liu candidly talking about racism in Hollywood. How growing up American of Asian descent, and then entering the world of entertainment, she amongst many people of Asian descent in entertainment only get to play certain roles, due to ethnicity, and that it's a big fight to play roles in which the reason why the character exists is to fit a quota.

Had to say, it wasn't very detailed, but I loved that she stuck up for her views, as a woman of color. What unraveled my mind were the comments people left behind in the article. While people have a right to their opinion, a person(whom wouldn't admit which racial group they belonged to) felt that the Asian experience shouldn't be considered a struggle, and that it's a subject people are wasting time on, as Asians are the most privileged minority in the US.

I didn't join in the conversation, as I admit, I tend to go hard on la raza. But it hurt. I am not Asian, but growing up Afro-Latino, there isn't much I can't identify with. Like Blacks, Asians have such a small voice in entertainment and the media. Asian men are demonized, Asian women are sexualized, and it appears Americans of Asian descent all can agree that while you can't go around saying the N word, calling a person a derogatory term for Asians doesn't get much slack.

Does being Latino(and when I say Latino, I mean of any race) or Black really give someone the right to say the Asian experience is any less a difficult experience? I had to restrain myself from replying. I wanted so bad to say "Hell No." On any given day, where could a person of Asian descent not be constantly reminded that they're not Caucasian?

Wanted some thoughts, but this is really just a rant. Smh.

[Tom]

Well speaking as a half-Filipino, I have to say that Asian-Americans as a whole will often ignore their heritage. They attempt to assimilate into Caucasian culture. I believe I remember hearing in Sociology class that the children of Asian immigrants rarely identify with their heritage, and since they don't truly identify as Asian, they don't stir up a fuss over civil rights. Instead, they devote their energies to their professions. Hence why Asians are the "model minority".

I think I'm an example of a lot of this. I identify as American--not Asian or White. I'm not in touch with my Filipino side. I've never bothered to learn Tagalog, my friends are all white, and I honestly tend toward Euro-centrism in my interests (my love of Euro history in particular). Really typically American, in other words.

Have I been the target of racism from time to time? Sure. And it sucked. But it hasn't had a huge impact on my psyche because it's never been a struggle for me. 'Struggle' implies perpetuity. My troubles have been intermittent at most.

But I hazard that my experience has been easier than other Asian Americans'. I don't really look that asian. People who've known me long enough to ask will almost invariably say, "What are you?" because it's that tough to tell. My reply is usually along the lines of, "A mutt, like every American."

[The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears]

I seriously cringe every time I hear that term "model minority" because it's so full of backwards racism. It's often used to pit Asians against black and latino communities, to say "see what they did, why can't YOU?", even though that kind of thinking both ignores the blatant racism Asians still face (in different guises sometimes) as well as history. And Hollywood is well-known for endless whitewashing, as well as picking their "person of color du jour". It's interesting as a black woman I see a lot of similarities with all women of color when it comes to the popular media, and don't get me started on the heinous sexual stereotypes.

I think that's a a huge reason I give the side-eye to authors of color who can fill such a huge vacuum when it comes to featuring lead characters of color in their books and they drop the ball. I realize that it's not fair, but for me personally, as long as the playing field isn't level, then we should all do our best to make that happen. And I would love to see more Asian males as romantic leads, since they tend to get stereotyped a lot as well.

[Tom]

Well that kind of brings me back to my original point. A book featuring an asian male lead would likely be targeted toward a niche audience: asian males. And asians aren't especially proud of being asian. Ashamed, no, but we're more likely to shunt aside our heritage than draw attention to it.

With that said, the protagonist in Starship Troopers is actually Filipino, which I always thought was pretty cool. He is NOT the aryan-looking football star you see in the movie.

[The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears]

LOL my friend, I don't know the Asians you're around, but the ones I know are not only proud of their heritage, but they're very politically active in regards to social justice. One of my favorite sites is Racebending, which was founded by Asians, and deals with erasure/whitewashing in the media. It could be a generational thing, which is what I've been told by my friends. Speaking of Asians, I think most people's frame of reference are Chinese, Japanese and Korean--who are touted as being successful. Other groups like the Vietnamese, the Hmong and smaller communities have high poverty rates and dropout rates, but they're never talked about because they don't fit the narrative.

To the original point, I think each group has similarities when it comes to their experiences with racism, but there are differences and those should be discussed civilly. I'm not really into the oppression olympics, LOL.

[Tom]

I didn't pull that out of nowhere. That's a principle I was taught in Sociology 101.

Why does shrugging at our heritage qualify as oppression?

Even as I type this, I'm wearing an infrared American flag on my right shoulder. I'm an American. I'm proud of it. I identify as an American before Filipino, Irish, German, Chinese, or any of the collective cultures that make up my heritage. That's how I was raised. That's how the other soldiers in my unit feel. We have Irish, Haitians, Jamaicans, even an Albanian and a Cape Verde-an. We acknowledge where we come from. But we're American first. And that's the way it should be.

Why should people of the same race have to band together to feel like they're part of a group, something larger? We are already, just by virtue of our citizenship. There are no others, just us.

I hang out with the people I like. So did the other Asian kids at my high school. So did the ones at college. So what if we ignore our heritage, the fact that we or a parent or a grandparent came from someplace else? Whether we celebrate our heritage or ignore it, the result should be the same: we should be Americans before anything else.

So I don't feel the need for an Asian protagonist. Because I don't feel it matters.

[[deleted user]]

I'm sorry you feel that way about the need for an Asian protagonist :) I enjoy your opinion, you have a point of view that is similar to Libby's boyfriend. He is also biracial, but with black( Haitian) and white(Colombian). He unfortunately struggled a lot with his mixed heritage and still does so prefers to identify with being American as well. He claimed( and still does) he's not properly represented and I'm sure had the media taken these risks in the past to build the self esteem of those whom look like him, perhaps he wouldn't have struggled as much. I'm glad you have been lucky to not struggle as much with heritage and how others view you :) however some aren't as lucky. At times, I feel invisibility is worse than being represented incorrectly, as at least you're present. People being made aware you exist is a small step. But it's the only way to change a stereotype :)

[[deleted user]]

I would also like to know Thomas, if there isn't a need for Asian male leads, is there really a need for white leads?

[[deleted user]]

Not to be anal :) I'm just asking to get your honest opinion

[[deleted user]]

T.K. wrote: "I didn't pull that out of nowhere. That's a principle I was taught in Sociology 101.

Why does shrugging at our heritage qualify as oppression?

Even as I type this, I'm wearing an infrared America..."

I like the message you were trying to convey. Very interesting thoughts. But I have to disagree with you(in a very non threatening way).

I want to see more Asian protagonists.Why? Because what most men(well i guess i would say more white and black men), with exceptions of Bruce Lee, see Asian men in such an Inferior way.

A co-worker of mine once said, thinking i would agree, that he saw Asian people as foreign. He didn't know any at all so it always surprised him to hear an Asian person speak with an American accent.

Another female co worker of mine was describing ONE Asian person she had met in her whole segregated life and she used the words, "oh i met this Asian girl, she was nice. She's normal, just like regular people".*Screech*As if Asians are from a different planet, and live so much differently than any average American. What brought me to the conclusion that some people have a hard time attaching Asians to the American culture.

And let me not get started on how some guys see it as "the thing to do" to pick on Asian guys when it comes to they match up sexually.

The problem is there aren't enough images of the average Asian American male in media. One of my favorite shows, "The Big Bang Theory", has an Indian guy in the cast. If you know anything about the show, all the guys have these insanely high IQ's and work as scientists for a research company. They're all nerdy but the Asian guy in the cast can't even talk to a girl unless he's had a few drinks in his system. I'm thinking out of all of them, why did they make the Asian one intimidated by women??? It just furthers the stereotype that Asian men are awkward socially, and sadly when people watch these images it because "normal"to see Asian men as inferior to white or black Americans.

If we had more Asian protagonists, I think many people would realize that they are not so different than anyone else.

When Jeremy Lin was in his Linsanity mode, a flood of Asians, both American and Foreign, filled the Garden just to see him play and show support.They were proud to see an American of Asian descent representing them in a competitive American pastime In the USA it shouldn't have been a big deal for an Asian American to get all this hype for playing well. But because Americans have this ignorance that Asians do well in school and can't possibly be good in sports, It was a big deal at the time. I know Asian Americans want to see themselves on TV and media. Because only then will people be able to accept that Asians can be American, good at sports, socially popular, or anything else that keeps people from seeing them as the "other".

[[deleted user]]

Thank you Thomas for bringing up an opposing opinion :) without one this conversation would go one way and I like that its getting different points of views out there

[Tom]

Well sure, there's racism to be found, and that's no surprise to me at all. I view racism as an unavoidable side effect of our evolutionary past. Our minds operate on classification. We sort everything we know into neat little compartments in an effort to make sense of the world. Cow vs horse, red vs blue, dusk vs night, etc. It's a natural, unfortunate consequence of this that some people's minds sort more strictly than others. They view difference as a threat. We're warring against the way our minds are programmed to operate, and I say we're winning, by and large.

I think our challenge is to recognize that despite the persistence of racism, our culture is by-and-large succeeding with integration. Actually, the level of cooperation we see on a daily basis is unprecedented in human history. We're a melting pot of cultures, many of which have historically despised each other. By all rights, our society shouldn't work, yet it does.

If there is a problem, it's a lingering remnant of the human race's past. And it's going away. We have a black president. Our pop culture celebrates a Filipino named Bruno Mars. A person of color can prosecute his or her boss for discrimination. There's a public outcry when a talk show host or a clothing manufacturer uses a racial slur.

All of these are signs of progress. I see no reason to believe that this progress is stopping.

I just don't see the supposed lack of Asian male protagonists as a relevant issue. Over here, in a military environment, I see successful integration every single day. I saw it back home, too. One of the most beautiful girls I ever met in college was in a long-term relationship with an Asian male. I'm engaged to a girl of Italian descent. I maintain that the sum of my positive experiences outweigh any instances of veiled racism I've encountered. And I'd hazard that there are many others who've integrated just as successfully as me.

In sum, I'm proud of what we as a society have achieved, and I firmly believe that the trend will continue.

[The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears]

This has been an interesting conversation and I'm glad we're having it. Thomas, I totally disagree with you (respectfully of course), but I also understand your point because of your life experiences. You wrote somewhere that you look more European than Asian, if I'm not mistaken. If that's so, I think that would make it easier for you to assimilate than someone who is fully Asian or Black. There's still that baggage, which is why I need and want to see more positive diversity in the media to counteract that. For me, it is important to see Asian males as leads because of all the negative baggage that's been attached to Asian male masculinity. I feel the same way about black women being leads. The media is a powerful instrument which shapes our perceptions. That's why Martin Luther King Jr. told Nichelle Nichols not to leave her role as Lt. Uhura on the original Star Trek. Because her very presence on the bridge was such an inspiration for young black children, that they were a part of the future. Interestingly enough, her role inspired Dr. Mae Jemison, the first black female astronaut as well as inspiring Neil De Grasse Tyson, the astrophysicist. There is something to be said for inclusion and pride. No, I'm not talking that Klan-style crap, but acknowledgment that we all matter. And in spite of a black president, we are far from post racial, which is why inclusion and diversity matter.

[Heather]

I know we're here for fun and fantasy books, but I'd love to post this article from Andrea Smith, who is a thought-provoking writer who addresses foundations underlying American society that contribute to the "hidden racism" still present today. Like Guinevere, theFountainPenDiva, and others have posted, too often we're caught up in "the Oppression Olympics":

http://loveharder.files.wordpress.com...

[[deleted user]]

Heather wrote: "I know we're here for fun and fantasy books, but I'd love to post this article from Andrea Smith, who is a thought-provoking writer who addresses foundations underlying American society that contri..."

Damn Heather, That article was deep!Thanks for that =D

[[deleted user]]

Heather made me want to look into some other opinions about this and i stumbled upon a fellow black latina's view on things. Although I dont agree with everything she says there were some interesting reads i'd like to share if it interested anyone

Here she talks about teaching abroad and how white privilege affected her:
http://manifestfreedom.wordpress.com/...

This one especially pertains to the topic at hand, wanting to know that we matter@FountainPenDiva,this may interest you ;):

http://manifestfreedom.wordpress.com/...

[[deleted user]]

And since Lucy Liu is the reason we brought up this discussion in the first place felt like i could share this too

http://www.racialicious.com/2013/05/1...

[Aya]

Wow, so many great replies!

Thomas, I also have to disagree respectfully, especially when you mention that you don't look Asian and identify with white mainstream culture. Skin, unfortunately, will always make a difference. In the teaching abroad article Libertad posted, the author mentions "if you are going to stick out as a foreigner, being white makes your travel experience much easier." I have traveled to over twenty countries, and it does make a difference. I remember when in Madrid, the customs officer asked me to show my credit card to show I have funds for traveling. When I traveled from Dublin to London, being the only non-white on board, I was the only person who had her picture taken when entering London's Gatwick airport. In Taiwan, people will go out of their way to welcome whites, but if you look like Southeast Asian (usually associated with cheap labor), then people will automatically assume you're poor and uncultured. I've heard of a Vietnamese woman who was asked very ignorant questions by some Taiwanese, which makes me feel ashamed. Racism is not just white supremacy vs. the Other, it happens within other groups as well. But I digress...

I am glad that your experience is mostly positive, and that your friends' experience does not mirror what is portrayed in mainstream literature/film. Most of the Euro-Asians I've met actually have an Asian father/white mother. Now, if that only happens more in mainstream media...

[[deleted user]]

Aya wrote: "Wow, so many great replies!

Thomas, I also have to disagree respectfully, especially when you mention that you don't look Asian and identify with white mainstream culture. Skin, unfortunately, wil..."

Wow, thanks for sharing those experiences with us, I do agree with your statement that racism isn't just white supremacy vs the other. I too have had my experiences with other Latinos who fit the stereotypical mold(light skinned, mostly likely able to trace their heritages back to Spain).

Because my looks have strong African ties, Latinos assume that I don't speak spanish and will and have sad such rude things about Blacks. You wouldn't believe the surprised looks on their faces when I greet them with my Cuban Spanish that later turns into embarrassment. Many times Latinos have treated me horribly UNTIL they learned that I was Cuban, which to them meant the whole world of difference. So the white supremacy follows us even in our own cultures, it's despicable!

All I want is a present representation of the Modern woman or man that just happens to be of Asian, African, Latino or Indigenous descent. I just want to see the same stories that feature entertaining characters like Bridget Jones or Forrest Gump, feature people of color. I don't think that that's such an outlandish request =D

[Heather]

I don't think it is an outlandish request either, Libertad. And at least with some of the freedom we have with self-publishing, we can get the ball rolling faster! Very interesting about the teaching article-- Unfortunately, I had an experience abroad where I was directly asked to find a foreign English teacher who was (and here, the lady asking looked extremely awkward and uncomfortable)--"American, and...you know...white." Some of the top-down orders are still very much invested in maintaining false perceptions.

[Clay]

Hi all,

New member here. Saw this topic and just had to jump in.

First of all, yes, I am Caucasian. (I don't think being a 1/4 native american counts :) ). I really don't like having to identify myself in that way, though. I would much rather just say...I'm an American. I've also been a Wiccan for the past 30 years.

Now...I have to say that in a lot of ways, I have to agree with T.K.

I think that we do ourselves no good by continually "labeling" ourselves as Caucasian, African-American, Asian-American, etc ad nauseum.

I understand the reasoning behind it, yet it seems as if such divisions do more harm than good. It sets up a system of US vs THEM. When it should be simply US together.

We've had these divisions for several decades and nothing really seems to change. In fact, as time goes on, it seems as if the relations seem to get worse.

I know it is a pipe dream, but one thing I love about a lot of science fiction books that feature other races is the fact that, in most cases, they show a society that has stopped labeling people by their color and started recognizing that it is the person inside the skin that counts!

IN real life, I don't see that happening at a break neck speed, but I can't help but think that, if we stop with the labeling and start thinking of people as individuals within the same group, we'll get there a lot quicker.

[Tom]

Thanks, Clay. Unfortunately this sort of "no labels" reasoning gets branded as "color blind racism". The term never made any sense to me and I frankly despise it, but there you go.

I've pretty much said my piece, but I guess I can summarize my point with this: our society has come a long way, and if this thread is right, then it was without the assistance of the mainstream media or publishing industry. So why on earth do we need their help now?

I don't need an Asian protagonist to define a struggle that neither I nor my friends have experienced.

[[deleted user]]

Thank you for your beautiful comment. I do agree with you as far as labeling. It was a subject Thomas touched and I was glad to see an opposing opinion.

If you share indigenous heritage and are proud of it, I don't see why letting it be known is a bad thing. But it is great to that you identify with and have pride for where you were born.

Us vs them is a dilemma that stems from being different. Growing up I was never considered just American because I'm not Caucasian. In fact many people outside of the United States confuse American with only being Caucasian.

While this country has come a long way, I don't see it changing to the point where American is just considered American, and not associated with race.

I'm am also glad to see a Wiccan in the group. Please feel free to bring up a separate topic in the discussions board about what made you decide it was for you, and how it has impacted your life! I am highly interested in different religions. Which brings up another us vs. them dilemma. Christian vs. Jewish or Hindu vs. Muslim. I'm struggling with my desire to study Buddhism, as my family rejects the idea. So while I'm unsure, I'm doing as much as I can to learn about other faiths.

I'm talking too much and have gone off topic :p

[[deleted user]]

I will admit that I do tend to have an us vs them mentality. I'm ashamed of it, as it stems from many experiences I've had. Puerto Rican vs Cuban was a big one for me for a long time. Black vs non Spanish speaking black. Fair skinned Latino and black vs dark skinned Latino and black. It's not just a black vs white thing.

It can come for skin color, neighborhood, religion, parents place of origin, political affiliation, nearly anything.

[[deleted user]]

I suppose because my image is nearly invisible in the media it strikes a bigger chord for me.

Women already are a bit overtly sexualized. But being a dark skinned person in this country or any country is always associated with being uneducated or unattractive, and hardly ever is associated with success :(

Some men think women of color especially ,are only experimental and men from our own culture reject us for the cultural norm. How is one supposed to react to constant reminders that they don't matter?

While I'm speaking from an Afro Latino perspective, being gay, or Muslim , or differently abled( as Lauren put it) can also be a difficult walk of life. My boyfriend( whom is not my race) is the stereotype of what's considered true American. White, blond, blue eyes. His image is everywhere. He's not an Abercrombie and Fitch model, but he's never lacked confidence because his image is so visible.

Before me, he didn't even know Cubans came black. And despite having an immigrant mother( originally from the United Kingdom) he still sees immigrants as non white. I'm teaching him what I go through( and trust me, he receives the minority treatment just being with me) but seeing his reaction when were treated unfairly is never a big deal because I'm so used to waiting 40 min to be served at restaurants. I'm used to being constantly asked do I work somewhere, because I obviously have that "working class" look, so I can't be shopping.

My image is only used in order to degrade me. But his is used in ways to uplift him. Granted it isn't his fault. But back to my point, while we've come very far, can we really say our journey to be seen equal is complete?

[Clay]

of course the journey is not complete. Far from it. (and if I ever forget it, I have several gay friends that will be more than happy to remind me :) )

I do believe that we may have differing notions on how to get to the destination, but we are still heading to the same place.

Realistically speaking, what percentage of non-blacks will go to see an all black movie? I would say probably not much. I wouldn't.

Why? Not because of racism, but because of lack of connection. Here in the US, we have gone out of our way to make our various groups "different", and goddess help the person that tries to break out of their particular mold...they'll get hit from both sides!

I have a friend that has two children (had, rather, since they are grown with their own families now) that were half white/ half black and those kids caught hell because they refused to allow themselves to be put into any mold. They refused to wholly embrace "black" culture and they refused to wholly embrace the so-called white culture. They demanded to be treated as individuals who just happened to have a white mother and black father. The only kids I have ever been more proud of were my own :)

Would I like to see more races and religions and sexual orientations in the movies and on tv? Sure (one reason I absolutely love Glee...just don't tell anyone....)

I simply believe that forcing the film makers to do it is not the way to go. We have to make it profitable for them to do so...and to do that, we have work on ending the divisions within our society. We have to work on it from both sides.

We're going to get no where quick if we try to force people to do what we want. If we shove their faces in it and say "This is what I am and you HAVE to accept it." Those tactics just won't work. Rather than standing up and pointing out how different we all are, we should be standing up and saying "here is how we are all alike!"

Not everyone is going to get that message or accept it. So be it. Those people, in all their little groups, are part of the problem, not the solution.

ooops. Okay. Climbing down off my soap box LOL. Sorry, I do take this problem seriously and it is not all one sided.

I firmly believe that, until enough people from all those little groups get together and tell everyone else that we're done playing their little power games, we're just going to be spinning our wheels.

Okay...I'll shut up now and fade back into the shadows LOL.

[[deleted user]]

Clay wrote: "of course the journey is not complete. Far from it. (and if I ever forget it, I have several gay friends that will be more than happy to remind me :) )

I do believe that we may have differing not..."

No need to fade into the shadows,Clay. You've made some very interesting points!

[[deleted user]]

Yes, feel free to voice all opinions =D

Its weird, my boyfriend will watch films with no minorities, but I watch tons of movies where there are none.

Sometimes, I think people in general look at people whom don't look like them, as being from a different planet.

[[deleted user]]

We all go through the same issues, it's weird how someone cant relate to an all black casted film with the same issues =/

[[deleted user]]

"Sex and The City" and "Living Single" (because I've watched both) are essentially the same show. Four women looking for more in their love lives and careers. The only difference is race. But few people have seen both, most likely have only seen one.

[The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears]

This is such an awesome conversation and it's great to have it. I just hope we can keep having it and that all viewpoints take the time to really listen to the other side. The hardest part I think is for a privileged person to listen what non-privileged folk are saying and not making this all about "them". When I talk to my trans friends, I have to let them tell me what their experiences are like. I don't get to tell them what I THINK their experiences are, or that their oppression isn't "as bad" as mine. That can be very hard to do, but again, it's not about ME.

While the idea of "colorblind racism" seems to make no sense, allow me to explain as best I may why some find the notion of "colorblindedness" problematic.

Firstly, this idea of all of us being "American" is questionable at best. The only time it seems we are united is during a disaster (such as what's occurred in Moore, Oklahoma or 9/11), or even on a battlefield (sadder still). PoC's have fought for generations to be simply "American" and yet have been thwarted at nearly every turn by a society that makes darn certain we know we are still "the other". And even though I am no fan of the term African-American, I understand its power and significance. It's a term that WE have given ourselves, not a term forced upon us by a racist society. In short, to name a thing is to give it power of self-determination. And yes, it is also one of acknowledging pride. Not the kind of KKK/neo-nazi scum racist pride which is predicated upon hatred and exclusion, but a pride in a shared and varied history. The same with Chinese-American, Japanese-American, Hmong-American, Mexican-American or whatever hyphenated American. We're not excluding anyone, just expressing pride in our history. A history, by the way, that we are still fighting to be taught.

Colorblindedness, instead of celebrating "difference" acts instead to place a quantitative value upon them. "Difference"--which could be social or cultural-- and merely a part of what makes us human, has come to mean "lesser". That someone who doesn't fit "the norm" has no value to society. To celebrate difference doesn't or shouldn't mean divisiveness, and it sure as hell shouldn't mean whitewashing. Seriously, how do we get to "post-racial" when covers of books and entire film casts are whitewashed or racebended? The Last Airbender, 21, perhaps the remake of The Crow? If we are "post-racial" then it should have been perfectly okay to have ethnic castmembers prominently featured in those films, right? Or does this only go one way? Sorry, you cannot claim colorblindedness on one hand then have kittens over an Asian guy outsmarting Las Vegas.

To be colorblind isn't a bad thing overall, but it should work across the board. Why should a book with a PoC on the cover be treated any differently than one with a caucasian on the cover? Why was it a big deal that Idris Elba played Heimdall in Thor? Why can't a white reader or viewer "relate" to Commander Benjamin Sisko from DS9? And yet, what's being asked of PoC's/GLBTQ/etc. folks is to accept not only that their differences are not "the norm", but that they are not even worthy of inclusion. If you are truly "colorblind" then a Tyler Perry film (of which I am no fan for other reasons which I would be more than happy to share at a later date, LOL), shouldn't be an issue for you. Every family somewhere has a 'Madea' in their midst, LOL.

To be truly "colorblind" is to accept and even celebrate differences but to not judge people by them or to erase them in some way. It is the ability to see more than the superficial and get to the heart of what it is to be human and that we all have stories to share. That's one reason I am GLAD to see the demands for inclusion getting louder and louder. That's really the only way things are going to change, speak up and hit Hollyweird/New York in the old pocketbook.

Hope this makes sense. @Clay, by the way, nice to see a Wiccan here.

[Jen]

TheFountainPenDiva wrote: "This is such an awesome conversation and it's great to have it. I just hope we can keep having it and that all viewpoints take the time to really listen to the other side. The hardest part I thin..."

Co-signed!
Just a few thoughts off the top of my head: I feel whenever the word "colorblind" is used, white is usually the default. Only white people, in my opinion, can be colorblind. I don't have that luxury, I've been reminded far too often of how I'm not "the norm".
We're not all the same, and why should we be?
I have no problem relating to the white people that I watch on the television or read about in books, so why can't it go both ways? Why can't white audiences watch a film about two PoC falling in love without it being a "POC film"? Because that's what happens, falling in love is no longer universal when the two people doing it are black, Asian, etc. Suddenly white people can't relate.
I'm not expecting a film with a black female protagonist to exactly mirror my experiences, at all. But there just needs to be MORE. Absolutely.
Errr...basically I'm just reiterating TheFountainPenDiva's thoughts but less eloquently :P

[Ruth]

Jen, you expressed that so well. Only the default (white) can afford to be colorblind. Everyone else is reminded when they step outside the door and encounter the "real" world, where a person isn't seen as the unique individual that he/she is. And while most people are actually decent folks, there are underlying assumptions that can taint even benign encounters.

And Clay, being 1/4 does count. If you're Cherokee and your ancestor is on the Dawes List (mine isn't, they were "white" enough to avoid the Trail of Tears), you and your children are still Cherokee. No blood quorum. A few other tribes follow that rule -- I know a woman who is a registered member of her tribe, and was told when she wanted to become involved with the diversity committee at work, that she didn't fit the image. They didn't want her because she looked too white.

I do think that things have improved, but there's still a lot of racism out there. A lot more than most of the majority culture realizes, they're oblivious. But then again, is a fish aware of the water it swims in?

[Aya]

Jen, you've said what I wanted to say: "I have no problem relating to the white people that I watch on the television or read about in books, so why can't it go both ways?"

I remember seeing "Forbidden Kingdom" several years ago, and hated it. Apart from the threadbare plot and an Asian fantasy world where everyone speaks English, I didn't understand why there had to be a white protagonist who didn't do anything for the story. I looked up the story behind the film, and it seems that the director was telling a Chinese classic, Journey to the West, to his child, but his child wasn't interested. So the director changed tactics, inserted a white protagonist, and then the kid found the story exciting. Eventually the story evolved into the film.

There are other examples I could think of, like "Last Samurai" or "Bulletproof Monk," in which there's a "Chosen One" who is white for no reason, to save an Asian community. Is it too difficult to ask for an Asian protagonist to save his/her own world? Would that be too hard to identify with?